I'm thinking I need a 358 Winchester as my state allows bottleneck cartridges at or above .35 diameter for deer (typically a slug state, then went straight wall, now this). Any factory rifles available or would a Savage .308 and a .358 prefit barrel be easiest. Can't see shooting much over 200yards. I will need to research bullets before I get too deep in this, too.

I think Browning BLR was the last available but it's now discontinued. At 200yds and less you could easily get away with using cast alloy and it's still effective. Lyman has their cast handbook with that data.

BLR

If you could find a Ruger American in .358 Win that would be a good one to snag.

A 35 Remington works almost as well. I've been seeing 336 Marlins available in 35 Rem. Great moderate range deer caliber. Otherwise any short action can be sent to JES rebore for an upgrade. Anything 35 cal is an automatic upgrade. Sometimes a WTB add helps in the classified down below. I'll bet you'll find someone willing to turn one loose. I've also seen Savage 99's in 358 Win.

First off thanks for all the replies. I probably will not get into the cast bullet rabbit hole if possible, but good suggestion. Right now only looking at bolt actions, but may reconsider later. I have read a little about the rebore route, too. It does sound interesting if I can’t find a factory chambered rifle. I hate buying used rifles by pictures, but may have to start looking online.

How about 50 BMG?

Laws are laws no matter how ridiculous. I have a 264 Win Mag I can’t use.

What do you use?

I have a 358 that I made. It's actually just an upper for a DPMS pattern AR, and it shoots very well. In fact it's a bit more accurate then the 308 upper I have for the same rifle.
And it looks as if Browning is still making the BLR in 358
Lookie here>>>>>

https://www.browning.com/products/firearms/rifles/blr.html?q=&prodLine=RIFLE&productionType=Current%20Production|Exclusive%20Availability|Shot%20Show&subbrandDesc=BLR&sortOrder=default&caliberDesc=358%20Win

Your AR is based on an AR-10 platform I assume? Haven’t considered that. I’ve built a couple AR-15’s, or I guess put them together.

Living in a relatively free state I can use just about anything I want to. So far this year I've killed deer with a .223 in an AR and a .44 mag revolver. Last few days I've used a 6.5X55 but didn't shoot anything. Next will probably be 7X57 or .223 bolt gun, maybe .41 mag revolver.

If I lived in one of those states with the weird regs I'd love to be playing around with one of the new generation of straight wall stuff just to see what I could get out of it.

In your circumstances, I'd probably prefer .358 Winchester. I'd also consider .35 Remington and .35 Whelen. I'd not be opposed to using a .375 H&H or .375 Ruger, either.

Pick up a "cheap" used 700 short action and do it yourself. I've read some good things about X-Caliber barrels and they offer a 358 Winchester option.

https://www.x-caliber.net/remages

If you're open to trying a single shot rifle they may offer more flexibility for a 358 Win rebore. You won't have to worry about the magazine, bolt face, or action length. My 358 Win endeavours started with a 22 Hornet Handi Rifle that was rebore and rechambered. I had a rim counterbore cut in the barrel and often used 356 Win brass.

It’s really funny, but that’s Iowa…I have thought about what their rational might be that you can use a 358 Norma or STA, up to a 50+BMG, but a guy’s 30-30 or or 260, or anything below .358 cal is a no-no.

Never having had a 358 Win, I found a Ruger American in that chambering here in the Classifieds. I wouldn’t worry too much about bullets for deer in the 358.

There is a rebarreled Savage 110 in GB right now for $890

If you can’t find the 358 you’re looking for, I recommend going with a JES rebore. I think going that route is much easier than rebarreling.

I’d also encourage you looking into commercially available cast bullets, if you’re a reloader. I have found a cheap, but effective and accurate bullet for my 358. At 2100 fps and 250 grains, it’s a stomper on pigs. I’ll try it on deer this year, but I’m sure it will be great.

Thanks for everyone's help, I basically know my options now.

I just got a JES rebore .358Win back in less that 30days for $350. It's at my smith's now waiting to become a Rem 7600 carbine.

I've got a .358 X Caliber pre fit for a Tikka in my pile of stuff that I haven't gotten around to bolting together.

You might be able to find a Savage 99 in 358

Yes Mully220, It's the DPMS pattern "AR10"
Easy to put together, but the one thing you can't buy is the barrel and extension as an assembly. I made that myself. You cna too if you have access to a lathe and know how to use it.

I have learned by making 358s in both AR and in bolt guns that the cartridge benefits from a 1-12 twist. Some have 1-14 and that's not fast enough for some of the more popular bullets today. Boat tails with plastic tips make for longer bullets and they need to spin faster for good accuracy.

Why not just get a 9.3x62?

I will consider that Mac. I'm a varmint caliber guy and don't know squat about these medium bores.

Mully, What state?

Just FYI, NULA (Wilson Combat) catalogs a 358. They're pretty pricey. https://wilsoncombat.com/long-guns/nula-bolt-action-rifles.html

Or what about a 350 legend?

I had a pre'64 M/70 rebored to .35 Whelen by Randall Redman 30 some years ago, it has been my whitetail rifle ever since. Best bullets I've found are Hornady Inter-lok 200gr. RN with IMR 3031 and Sierra Game King 225gr. Spitzer with IMR 4064. I always wanted to do a .358 on a Winchester pre'64 Featherweight which would be my ideal .35 caliber deer rifle. When I got the Whelen back from rebore I tested every .35 caliber bullet available at the time before coming up with the Hornady and Sierra bullets. Both proved to be the most accurate and performed well on whitetails.

Lots of guys are using the 350 Legend around here in Iowa and I have heard mixed results with bullet performance.

Good info if I find one gunswizard.

The 200 Hornady SP is a good one too. Both it and the RN are probably the only one's available. I haven't seen either the 200 or 225 Sierra's in quite a while.

Well, there's that new 360 Buckhammer that is 35cal. That might scratch your itch. There's a lot of 308win rifles one could get for reboring. Ive got an steel BLR 81 308win I should do something with but I won't because I'm lazy and 45-70 does fine up to 200yds for me.

Shaw can build you a 358 on a Savage action. One of the gun heads here on the fire has a Shaw in 35 REM

Terminal Ballistics Research in New Zealand has a lot of good info. Nathan Forest has an interesting article on the .358 Win and pistol bullets. Google it.

DF

Edited to add link.

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.358+Winchester.html

How about a Remington 141 in 35 Remington? They are a pump action but are really good rifles.

Jim

Those are nice.

Picture?

DF

I'm having good luck using the 358 in Savage lever actions shooting the 180 grain Barnes TTSX and 51 grains of TAC powder. Have killed bear deadern hell with the load.

My wet weather 358



The 358 16" carbine

Nice, twice.

Thanks for showing.

DF

Buy a new or used .243/ .308 in a rifle you like and send it to JES to become a .358 Win.

It was $250 when I had my pre-64 .243 FWT done. Still a deal at $350. Mine was shot out. To me it would be hard to send one that still shot well. But some do.

It would be interesting to see his set up and how he turns them out so fast and at reasonable cost. And they’d shoot.

DF

https://www.gunsinternational.com/s...nchester&start_row=1&the_order=6

There are several on Guns international. None cheap though. I had a pre64 Mod 70 FWT rebarreled to .358 last year from a 30-06. It is now my timber/thick country rifle.

That round's hard to beat for that use. It'll reach out farther than some think, just not an ideal long range set up. Pretty dangerous out to 200+ if you do your part.

It hits hard without a lot of punishing recoil.

DF

Just a Hunter,

Thanks for the link. I was looking at those $8K prices on pre-64 M-70 FWT .358 Win rifles. Makes me proud to have one, although a JES job, a good looking, good shooting .358 Win. I traded for the shot out .243, had JES do his thing. I recut the checkering, refinished the wood, glassed and free floated it, tweaked the trigger to a near perfect 3#'s.

I really like the rifle and the round. I've posted this before. Final version is with the Trijicon in Signature rings. I like the duplex type reticle with bright dot. Great combo for woods hunting and over food plots.

I can enjoy it like an original, but for way less than the asking price for those. Fav load is with the 178 Shock Hammer over full load of RL-7, although X-Term and TAC also work well.

DF

The Raptor is another good bullet. I like the 178 Shock Hammer better because I can load it longer with less powder compression due to it's shape.

Hard to beat the accuracy, thanks to JES. I wasn't able to fully repeat this group, but came pretty close, like half MOA. The Hammer bullet is about as accurate, both solid MOA bullets, often sub MOA. They both have great terminal performance.

Here's an exit wound, 178 Shock Hammer, on a doe shot a couple of years ago. Notice the satellite exits around the core. These bullets frag and the pieces follow the core causing lots of internal damage, IME more than with mono's that don't frag. Yeah, I've shot both kinds, these are better, IMO, at least on the kinda game I hunt, mostly hogs and WT's. Quick kills, lots of internal damage.

DF

We probably should not let this thread go without declaring that the .358 Winchester is fully the equal of, and in many respects a great improvement upon (and here we're talking INHERENT ACCURACY, among other things) the .35 Whelen.

Here they are side by side.

I hear ya.

Not sure Whelen advocates would agree.

To me, the Whelen is a great round, but kicks a good bit more, both loaded full house.

I don't see it killing'em any deader. It may punch a bit farther, neither the best choice for long range, IMO.

DF

I still am having trouble expressing with "tongue in cheek".

We do tend to get focused on what we like, don't take to other opinions lightly...

I don't have a Whelen, so my fav is obviously the .358 Win.

Go figure....

DF

The beauty is that we can all be right.

Sorry DF. I don't own a Model 14 or 141 in 35 Remington. I have 2-14's and 1-141 in 30 Remington. They are all 3 fine operating machines. I would expect the same from the 35 Remington. There are several listed on Gunbroker.

Jim

I like those vintage Remington pumps. I don't have one, have always admired them.

DF

Or like our lady folks, not always right, just never wrong....



DF

Thanks for the pictures. I put this scope on it--https://www.leupold.com/vx-3hd-1-5-5x20-cds-zl-illum-firedot-twilight-hunter. I am shooting 250g Hornady's but would like to try the Hammers. I have tried them at 200g in my other .358, but this is the one time I didn't get improved accuracy with them. Actually worse. I have X-Term and TAC so may have to try the 178. May I ask what your velocity is?

To the OP: 358 win is a great choice. JES might be the easy button in terms of "finding" a rifle.

Vs the 35 Rem...358 Win case holds ten more grains of powder...not to mention the actions are good for 65K instead of 40K. Plus all the 358 rifles are designed to be used with pointy bullets.

Vs the 350 legend...the 358 Win holds more than twice the powder charge. No comparison there.

As for the Whelen:

No the 358 is not its equal. Anymore than a 308 is the equal of the 30-06. Powder charges matter.

The COAL flexibility the Whelen gives with long and/or heavier bullets also matters. I would love to see how anyone gets a long 358 bullet to work at 2.80 COAL.

The Whelen with 225 accubonds is a reliable 400 yard setup from a 20" barrel at sea level...on steel the load I use (which isn't all that hot, starts at 2675fps) is still holding 1/2 moa at 700 yards. Sort of academic as the bullets are going too slow to expand at that distance but there it is.

For eastern hunting I use a 358 way more than a Whelen but no reason to bust on the Whelen. With modern bullets it's a 400 yard rifle, easy. The 358 generally has a 250-300 fps deficit.

I hope that you noted that my post about the .358 and the Whelen was tongue in cheek, taking the .308/.30-06 business up .05.

Just a Hunter.

I never got around to clocking this load, would guess it's running around 2,800 fps or there about, based on existing load data.

DF

On the .308/30-06 comparison, to me with lighter bullets, not a lot of difference. The '06 pulls ahead with heavies.

Haven't studied the .358 Win/Whelen comparison. May be similar, Whelen's advantage with heavies, don't know.

Would like to hear from those who may have studied them side by side.

I know the Whelen is faster, big block, vs. small block. Doesn't mean the small block can't run...

DF

I've owned 356 WINs in Marlin 336s and 358 WINs in BLRs, Remington 700s, Ruger 77s, and Savage 99s.

In a short bolt action, you run out of magazine length with a lot of component bullets, so that is something to take into account. Factory ammo has a limited variety, is often hard to find, and expensive when you do find it. A Marlin 336 in 356 WIN is a lot of power in a small package.

I had a M700 that I never shot and sent it to JES. Now it gets shot a lot! Very accurate gun and very good work.

Is there any short actions that have a long enough magazine box for the longer bullets?

Not to my knowledge.

I've had several .358 Winchesters, and the only one that had enough room for longer bullets was a "long-action" tang-safety Ruger 77 that originally had a POS 7x57 barrel right from the factory. Had it rebarreled to .358 and it worked very well with any bullet up to 250 grains, including the 225-grain Nosler AccuBond.

Did it have any advantage over the .35 Whelen? No, and I've owned several .35 Whelens as well, including an Ackley Improved, which has to be the most useless AI cartridge ever.

With Sierra 225s or Speer 250s seated close to rifling, both bullet bases are near the base of the neck. I get 2.785" & 2.830" respectively. Both fit & feed thru a M70 short action. My rifle doesn't like Accubombs seated to fit the mag. Works just fine for me.

This is a good article. Thanks for bringing it up.

I assembled my Savage 110 in 35 Whelen myself with a prefit barrel from Midway. It shoots sub-moa with Federal factory ammo. I see Midway also has it in 358:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1003581243?pid=343533

I made a great small game load for the 358 carbine that shoots a 124 gr 9mm bullet with 7 grains of fast powder.




30 yard group

Nice and practical. Did you use any filler in the case? I used to load a lot of Bullseye powder loads and cast for mild 44 mag loads when I was a young kid. I'd imagine the 358 being a good candidate for an 250gr cast bullet and a light cast bullet for small critters.

Pretty cheap solution for Savage guys.

Not a Savage fan, but they do shoot.

DF

I thought the barrel contour looked a little heavy but maybe not?

I had an early BLR in 358. I sold it probably too cheap. I liked the cartridge but didn’t like those early BLR magazines. I rebarreled a 700 308 to 358. Totally adequate for any thing a 30-06 is good for and I have a dozen 30-06’s.
I had a nice 700 Classic 35 Whelen and again I sold it likely too cheap. But I still have a 700 chambered in 35 Whelen. This one has the barrel shortened to 20.5” and threaded for a suppressor.
I like 35’s having had several 35 Remington’s, a couple 358’s, a couple 35 Whelen’s, and a couple 350 RM’s. I still have one of each. I’m thinking a 35 Winchester chambered in a 1885 Winchester would be great.
Comparing a 358 and a 35 Whelen as to which one I liked would be like asking me if I like left shoes more than right shoes.
I like long action 700’s more than short action 700’s so I think I’d keep the Whelen if it came down to which one of mine I liked the most. But if all were on Winchester 1885 actions the choice would be “left shoe” or “right shoe”, which one???

If it's like mine, yes, .7" at the muzzle, IIRC. Maybe it was .6". Either way, I had to remove a bit of wood with sandpaper wrapped around a dowel to get it to fit.

I am a 358 win nut. I own 7 different 358 win. It just works.

MAC said "Why not just get a 9.3x62?"

That's a very good question. MY own answer is the guns themselves. The Browning BLR is one that I find attractive especially the pistol grip style and the shorter action suits me better in that rifle. Personal preference.
But I do have a VERY deep respect for the 9.3X62 and although it's not popular in the USA, the 9.3X57 has a lot to offer too. In a bolt gun, I would absolutely choose one of those 2 cartridges over the 358. In fact, I did. I own four 9.3s and love them all. Two 9.3X57s, one 9.3X62 and one 9.3X74R. Having killed game with all of them I can vouch for their usefulness.
The strong suit (in my mine anyway) of thee 358 is that it fits in 308 length magazines. None of the 9.3s above will do that. So I get a very good killer in my AR rifle with excellent accuracy, and I can swap out the uppers from 308 to 358 in seconds. In fact the same thing can be said to make a 6.5 CM, 243< or 7-08 and one that i have done for customers that is proving to be excellent is the 338 Federal.

So to summarize, the 358 is a good powerful round throwing a big heavy bullet that fits into shorter magazines then the 57Mm Mauser case of the 30-06 length shells. If making a bolt action for myself I'd choose the 338-06, 35 Whelen 9.3X57 or 9.3X62 all before I'd make a 358. But for guns that have "NATO length" magazines the 358 is in a class with the 338 Federal that are pretty much on their own.

Steve,

I am down to one .358, the Savage 99 Featherweight I inherited from one of my hunting mentors, which was made in 1956. The thin barrel is a little touchy, but the rifle shoots well enough for anything the .358 will do in the field--and the nice thing about it for timber hunting is it only weighs 7-1/2 pounds with a later El Paso K2.5 Weaver.

Otherwise I'm pretty of the same opinion about the other cartridges you mention. In a long bolt action prefer the 9.3x62, partly because it's also legal in much of Africa for dangerous, and factory ammo is also widely available if by chance you get separated from your handloads.

You don't say where you're hunting, but I'm assuming Midwest somewhere? Obviously that means whitetail. And of course, we all know they're not especially hard to kill.

The 358 is one of my favorite rounds, even though I haven't hunted with one in over 30 years. It's a perfect choice for your intended use. Mine was a special run 18.5" bbl'd Ruger 77. I put on 2.5X Leupold on top. Poison on deer. All I ever loaded was a 200gr Hdy Flatbase. Insanely accurate, and always had a complete pass through on deer with a tremendous blood trail.

Today, I'd find the SA of my choice (for me that would be a Ruger 77, or better yet a Winchester M70) and put on a 21 or 22" barrel that mic's around .625" or a bit more at the muzzle.

The 358 Win is a great round, and eager to please. I can't see going to a larger cartridge like the Whelen or 9.3x62. It's not like you’re hunting grizzlies (though I wouldn't hesitate to use the 358 on such).

Quite literally a blast from the past:

Remember this would be a whitetail deer rifle only for let’s say 250 yards maximum range. My state requires .35 bullet diameter minimum if I choose to use a rifle vs shotgun slugs. Would you guys that promote a 9.3 or 35 Whelen still choose these over a 358 Winchester with my criteria? I look at a 9.3x62 and think my god I’m gonna shoot a deer with that. LOL! I suppose I could load it down some. I am sticking with a bolt action at this time, even though a AR-10 sounds interesting.

Thanks Brad, we were posting at the same time and you answered what I was asking before I asked!

The 9.3x62 works fine on deer-sized game, killing very well but not ruining much meat. The recoil also isn't bad, especially with original-velocity ammo, partly because like many moderate-velocity rounds (including the .375 H&H) it's more of a slow push than a quick jump.

But it doesn't kill deer any better than the .358....

Why not the .356 Winchester in a lightweight lever gun such as a Marlin 336, 1894, or 1895?

Phil

Mully-my Buddy and I get to hunt Iowa about every other year. I have followed the regs as they went from straight wall (used a 450 BM) to the recent changes to 35 and up bottleneck. I used the Whelen last December; my pard the 35 Rem in an older 760. We both shot bucks the same afternoon with no issues. The 358 would have worked just as well.

Nice picture. I’m using a Savage 220 20 ga. now, and really have no reason to change other than I want to.

Thanks M.

Awesome job Leadminer. Great work and memories

Damn nice!!!!!

Yeah, they grow some nice ones.

Good job, guys

DF

Nathan turns out some nice work. He puts a lot of time and effort into his publications.

DF

+1 on this suggestion if you want a bolt action. Down in the AR & MS area where I hunt the most, primitive season allows the use of single shots that are .35+ with an exposed hammer. Most of my friends meet this requirement by using a .35 Whelen and have been pleased with the results. I am particularly fond of my Ruger #1 in 9.3x74r but unfortunately I can't hunt with it during primitive season because the #1 lacks an exposed hammer (I use a .405 Winchester or a .44 Magnum instead). But the 9.3 is still a great round to use during the regular modern gun season. The cartridges that you're looking at would be good choices too. I seriously looked at acquiring a .358 in a Browning BLR so I'm definitely not criticizing that round. I just wanted to put a vote in for a 9.3.


Yea...my 9.3 rounds do make my 6.5x55 cartridge look kind of small. But it's a versatile caliber that can be used on a variety of game & situations so I would recommend it as an option to be considered for your current usage. My appreciation of it isn't purely technical. I also think it's a fun cartridge to shoot & own. Long slender cartridges with a rim are easy to load in a falling block whose breech is covered by a scope so I may be biased by my particular usage.

This is a 358 Winchester conversation, but how about a single shot in 9.3x74? I have a double and they knock things down! But I still like the 358 Winchester. Be Well, RZ.

Yeah, looking at those long, sleek, rimmed rounds. Didn’t look like 9.3x62, more like 9.3x74. I’ve had two 9.3x62’s.

Good round, just didn’t need them.

DF

Geezus christ. 5 pages of gibberish and "maybe" a baby deer?

There is no "heavy" bullet advantage to a Whelen over the 358.

Just like their is no "heavy" bullet advantage in the 30-06 over the 308 win.

Easily getting better than 2400 fps from the 308 winchester using leverevolution powder and 220 grain partitions.

Better yet, 2550-2600 fps from all the flat based 200 grain spitzers.


In the 358 winchester, 42 grains of 10x gave 2200 fps using 275 grain woodleighs. A smidgen behind the whelen in velocity, but guess what they did to a coupla big bulls?

They fkn sailed through those front quarters n ribs. The big bulls died on the dry bank, not in the fkn river, youre welcome.........

Mainer, you done good.

Nice.

DF

"No the 358 is not its equal. Anymore than a 308 is the equal of the 30-06. Powder charges matter. "

When it comes to factory ammo I'm inclined to say BS. A few years back I ran a speed test of 180 gr. Winchester Power Point factory ammo. The .308 was 20 FPS faster than the 30-06. Both rifles in the test wore 22" barrels. I've always wondered if the difference held true with other weight bullets in the two cartridges.

On the .358 v .35 Whelen, my vote goes to the Whelen. I have rifles chambered to both cartridges. I'd gotten interested in the .358 Win. on an elk hunt up on the Olympic Peninsula In Washington state. I was sitting on a stand at the edge of a swamp hoping to ambush a bull that I'd been dogging for a while. As I looked around, it came to me that something like a .358 Win. would be real handy where I was hunting.

When I got home after the hunt I checked newspaper adds to see if a used .358 might show up. It would save me the trouble of building one or finding a .308 to rebore. Saw an ad for a Ruger M77 Tanger so gave the guy a call. Turned out it was an LGS and the gun was NIB, $250.00. Then in rapid succession three more came into my hands, all in less than a month and a half. Another Ruger M77, a Browning early Japanese BLR and the queen of the pile, a Savage M99. It gets interesting as the Rugers were 1 in 16" twist barrels and the BLR and M99 1 in 12" twist. Sad to say, the two lever guns were noticeably more accurate than the Rugers. I got a few loads worked up but the planned elk hunt fell through. The place where we'd stayed for the hunt closed down because of the ban on logging and the spotted owl.

In the meantime Remington legitimized the .35 Whelen although the somewhat castrated the round so it wouldn't damage the pump and semiautos they made. Properly handloaded the Whelen definitely outshines a properly handloaded .358. Like what was said, "Powder charges matter." One could if they wanted download the Whelen to be a .35 Rem. or .358 but I fail to see why other than for experimentation.

I really ought to break out one of those .358s and mess around with some loads. Maybe see what it does loaded to duplicate the 9x57 Mauser round. Old John Taylor spoke fairly highly on the qualities of the cartridge.
PJ

The .458 Winchester thread in the Big Bore forum has been active for 2.5 years, has 177 pages & over half a million views. So we still have a long way to go before we hit what is considered “too much info & opinions” on the ‘Fire. (Nice moose photos!)

I feel a certain amount of confidence that any .35+ caliber bullet (e.g. 35, 9.3, 375, 416, 458, etc.) that is put into a bottleneck cartridge & fired at an Iowa deer at 200 yards or less is going to do a pretty stellar job of ruining that deer’s day. So the efficacy of the .358 for accomplishing the intended task is undeniable. I’m trying to think of a cartridge in this category that would be considered inadequate & I’m drawing a blank.

I grabbed a random Google image of 35 caliber cartridges below. All of those look pretty capable. The guys I hunt with use the .35 Remington on the left & the .35 Whelen on the right to good effect on MS deer so I’m assuming everything in between is capable as well.



The Iowa hunting regulations gives a partial list of suggestions. Those look capable of killing deer too. The only question here might be about trajectory & range.



So if regulations force hunters to use such large calibers, then I don’t think Mully220 can make a terrible choice. But if the OP enjoys overthinking decisions as much as I do, then I’m more than happy to help by providing (possibly irrelevant) opinions. Some of the rounds suggested could be better choices if a rifle is going to be used for things other than just hunting deer or if a person relied on purchasing commercial ammo.

But the .358 Winchester is absolutely a good choice if that’s what the OP chooses.