Been using the candle method for years but want to try using the torch / socket / drill method. I have 750 degree, green Tempilaq to get a baseline time.

Question: where should I paint the Tempilaq? Inside the neck? Outside the neck? Just below the shoulder on the case body?

What am I looking for, the Tempilaq to cook off?

Heres what I use. It does good for me. YMMV.
https://www.cartridgeanneal.com/

This is what I use as well. Works for me.

Inside the neck

Inside the neck and watch for it to change color/ melt.

How did you arrive at 750 for a temperature? -Al

a lot of the research I've done when I first started annealing indicated putting the 750 on the inside of the neck and leaving brass in the flame for about 1 second after the tempilaq disappeared.

👍 That has been my method also.

There's a big difference between 'annealing' at 750 with a slower method versus a method (like induction) that reaches 750 quickly.

Good shootin' -Al

That looks interesting. If the socket / drill method doesn't work out I may look into that. I am tired of the candle method when I have to do a bunch of cases.

I got an Anneal-Rite a number of years ago, for that reason. It works well, but of course takes a little longer to "set up" than lighting a candle....
"

But, but, but, the candle method is the Sacred Cow on this forum. Lol.

You'll get tired of messing with the tempilac in the drill and socket too. Ya gotta put it inside every case neck, you gotta wait for it to dry, and you probably should brush out the residue afterwards.

Just build one of these, cheap, and easy.



Much better uniformity and much easier to set up and use.

As far as the tempilac is concerned you don't really need it with something like that in the youtube. An orange flame starting off of the case neck is the zinc in the brass starting to burn off (easier seen in a darkened room). That's too hot. Back off your time in the flame by increasing the rotation speed and getting the case to drop a second or two before the orange flame first starts. That'll be around 740 or 750 degrees and it will be a good consistent anneal from case to case.

Actually after about 5 cases with the Tempilac you figure out the timing and it is relatively quick. Not for doing 500 cases at a time but for lots of 50-100 it works well enough.

My persective is from 100 to 120 cases a month for matches and 200 to 400 a month more for practice between matches. I'd rather get the boring jobs over quicker and easier. Besides I want the assurance of a mechanical aid for consistency.

And I can certainly understand that and if I was still competing that would be the way to go but for most of the rest of us a propane torch and some Tempilac gets the job done.👍

That's also the reason I've kept my Anneal-Rite, even after experimenting a lot with various annealing methods back when I was shooting around 8000 rounds a year for various purposes, including an AMP machine--which worked very well once the timing was down right for the particular batch of brass.

But after starting my semi-retirement process five years ago the Anneal-Rite soon became sufficient.

JB, do you Tempilaq a couple of cases and time them and just go by time fir the rest of the batch? Anneal Rite instructions indicate marking all the cases, I think.

Yep, that's exactly what I do--despite the directions, and the results are very good.

propane torch and my fingers. i'll know when the case is hot enuff from my fingers.

It's the method I have been using. It's damned slow and not very accurate. But, it does anneal cases. If I were doing 8000 cases a year I'd want a better method.

kwg

Not necessarily--of you hold the case in the middle of the body with the tips of your fingers.

Which is how Fred Barker, contributor to the late lamented Precision Shooting magazine, developed the candle method--using Tempilaq.

It has always seemed to me that the level of precision in most annealing is akin to the level of precision in weather forecasting.

Absolutely true. Most don't bother to see there's easy enough ways to achieve a level of precision.

This from the "precision shooter" who believes ANY compression of the powder charge detracts from precision....

That's on the ragged edge of putting words in my mouth, but whatever "gun writer".

~ Possibly bending a seating stem.
~ Inducing more runout.
~ Bullets creeping forward and changing seating depth.
~ Crunching the size, shape, or coating integrity of powder kernels and changing the engineered burn rate.

All good good GOOD stuff, just hold three inches left!!!

I have $70 in my DIY annealer and zero cooked fingers there Wax Candle Man.

i only do 100 cases at a time.

100 cases of the 30 Herrett
100 cases of the 22 Hornet
100 cases of the 7x57
100 cases of the 9.3x57
100 cases of the 30-40 Krag
100 cases of the 7.65x53
100 cases of the...

i don't do 500 - 1000 or more cases any longer.

anymore when I anneal I will do several hundred cases at a time ...
first had an Anealezz then switched to the Ugly annealer.
the ugly fixed all the short coming of the Anealezz

Okay, then I WILL put your own words here, from the H414 thread on the rifle reloading forum:

"Compressed loads. I never advocate for them. Mainly because I don't like crunching kernels and potentially (and unpredictably) changing the burn characteristics of the powder. There are plenty enough powder choices out there to achieve an 85% to 100% load density without compressing a load. If that's something that doesn't bother you then who am I to argue. I won't do it though, and that's all there is to it."

And here's my response there:

"In reality some powder compression tends to improve consistent burning, and also improves temperature-resistance--even in powders designed to be temperature-resistant. I know this partly by experimentation, but also plenty of information gleaned from powder manufacturers, distributors, and bullet/ammo companies, all of which had electronic pressure labs which I visited.

"One of the most informative guys in the business was Rob Reiber, who was in charge the pressure testing at Hodgdon for decades before retiring a few years ago. He was a wealth of information on powder, including info on how to load to make it burn more consistently.

"But there have been many others as well--including the owner of one powder distributing company (since purchased by Hodgdon) who helped me run tests in their piezo lab for article information. (As an example, one session involved seeing how accurate various "pressure signs" were in estimating safe pressures. Turned out most weren't of much use.) After several such sessions he even offered me a job in the lab, but I was already making more writing than he could offer."

I will add (which I pointed out elsewhere) that it's my job to report to readers on various aspects of handloading. Which is why I tried the candle method after Fred Barker's article appeared in Precision Shooting.

It's not the only method I've used, by far. At the other extreme I also had an AMP machine for a while, back when I was averaging shooting around 8000 rounds a year.

Here's an example of how candle-annealing can work, when shooting my 6mm PPC benchrest rifle:



And that load is also slightly compressed. I have never encountered any of the stuff you list as side-effects from moderately compressed loads--but have from "crunched" power charges. There's a lot of room between compressed and crunched.

Don't now if you're a hunter or not, but some of the most widely-used hunting handloads use compressed powder charges with no problems. Probably the best known is one developed by a gun writer named Jack O'Connor: 60-62 grains of H4831 with a 130-grain bullet. This is still a very good one, 3/4 of a century later, whether using the original military-surplus H4831 or the present "long cut" version made in Australia.

The unit from Giraud has served me well. I use the 750 degree Tempilaq. If Doug can find a suitable induction unit to replace the torch I will upgrade.

It’s very easy to make one that seems to work well.

Right now am planning to test the salt-bath method Charlie Sisk has been using for a while.

Might also mention that some years ago Charlie called me, saying he'd built a 7mm Remington Magnum for a customer, and it wouldn't shoot worth a darn--as in 2+" groups at 100 yards, with his standard test load, which usually went around 1/2" in his rifles. This was when he lived in Texas, and had his indoor shooting range, so wind didn't have anything to do with it.

He was using new brass, of a brand that usually worked very well. We batted it around for a while, and eventually I called him back and asked if he'd annealed the brass. He never had to before, but I explained the candle method. He tried it on the new brass, and the rifle shot 1/2" groups. (Evidently the factory hadn't done the final annealing.)

I shoot highpower rifle competition. We shoot quite a few matches on E-Targets, this gives us feedback on velocity, SD, etc.

My SD has dropped since I started annealing every reload. My scores at 600 yards have improved also.

The brass in the picture above was used to shoot this target. SD is 13.6. I shot another match the next day the SD was 13.5 and average velocity over 20 shots was within 6 FPS from the 22 shots fired the day before.

These loads were compressed. 24.7 grains of Varget in a 5.56 does not leave much room for a bullet.

600 yards, prone with a sling, no rest, AR-15 Service rifle with a 4.5 power scope.

Been doing it this way since reading the method in the old Shooters' Bible in 1958, as recommended by NRA. Heat on the twirling fingers is about as accurate as it can get. You drop the case into the bucket of water right under the torch and you're done. I found that the second firing after the anneal is the most accurate. Accuracy drops off after 4 firings so you just anneal again. Fast and accurate, and a helluva lot cheaper than the fancy machines. Faster than the candle method as well.

I'm taking a new approach to everything you post.

It goes something like this:

Meh......Yawn.......Ignore.

You are MORE than welcome to equally and wholeheartedly reciprocate likewise.

Another case of "I do it this way, if you do it any other way you are wrong". You're not related to Big Stick are you?

Join the club. It only took most of us less than 50 posts coming from you to realize you're a stupidasss.

I've tried and used most of the 'annealers' out there.

My hand held 'ring of fire' gives me the best results, for lots of reasons.

Good shootin' -Al

I like what Al is doing. I don't have a ring of fire device. I put a case in a drill and rotate the brass as I hold a torch on the neck. Drop the case into water when "done". I used to used a melting pot - molten lead and that worked. The accuracy improvement has been significant with some 222 loads.

I've been using the redneck drill/ratchet die/torch method too, but I sure like Al's rig. Is there a trick to getting those components to make one like that Al?

The annealer is cheap and simple, you should see my powder measure/scale.

The only thing quenching brass does is make it wet.

Al,

Would you mind explaining why a manual method would give better results than something automated. Not being argumentative, just curious.

Pretty cool looking setup btw.

Annealing brass for longevity is certainly gotten important recently.

I found with the candle method, in my case with an alcohol burner, and 750 Templaq, I found I didn't get a colour change before my fingers got too hot.

I suppose it would depend on the length of the case and how hot your heat source is. With 30-06 length cases and a propane torch it has not been a problem IME. In fact IIRC 308 length cases have also not been a problem.

I built my own version of the Skip's annealer. Using 750° Tempilaq I paint the inside of the case neck, use a flashlight to make it easier to see the paint melt. The case will drop out of the rotating drum aprox 1 second after the the paint melts, there isn't a color change using propane or map gas. My .308W Lapua brass will have a slight haze to it that you can only see if the light is right, .300RUM brass is only slightly different.

Water is a great heat sink when stress relieving cases at lower temp (than normally used for 'annealing') and for a longer period of time. People would be surprised at how warm the water gets after doing just 30-40 cases.

Since they're already standing in 1/2" of water, I just tip them over with the 'ring' when the time is up. Blow 'em dry with air, rinse in acetone and they are ready to f.l. size.

On new cases that have been neck turned, after stress relieving they go in hot water with Dawn and I scrub the inside of the cases with as big a synthetic bore brush as I can shove through the necks. Then rinse in hot water followed by a dunk in acetone before sizing.

Done this way, the accuracy stays the same from cases fired 7-8 times and newly prepped cases that have been stress relieved prior to the first firing. The shoulder 'bump' will stay within .0005 until that same number of firings when a few will start not staying where they're put. Then it's time touch them up again. Neck tension remains constant with no noticeable changes in seating force, accuracy or runout during sizing or seating.

For a hunting rig with say.....50 cases.....it's unusual that I ever have to go back and retreat the cases using this method. The exception being on chambers that have a lot of neck clearance where the brass work hardens pretty quickly.

There's a reason that using the high temp/short duration type of 'annealing' shows best results when done after each firing. People see this and incorrectly proclaim that any type of 'annealing' needs to be done after each firing.

Understanding the reason for what we're trying to accomplish is the first step in figuring out a process that will accomplish that. Like always, home work pays off.

Good shootin' -Al

👌
It would be interesting to see how hot the base of your case got if water wasn't utilized. Would it reach normalizing temperature...
Approximately how long is the neck of your brass in the flame?

when I first started annealing and learning about it and trying different methods and machines I took I believe it was $400 or 450° Tempilaq and made a stripe on the outside of the case down low by the head. that let me know if that case got anyways close to that hot none of my ever did

now you can sure anneal at 450° but it does take a period of time you can look up a chart on the big interweb you find all this information out..
some believe this includes me you can do a lot of good without actually annealing but heating long enough for stress relief... and that's what I would consider the candle method more of a stress relief than actual annealing

The tip of a candle flame can easily be 1500 degrees--which is why Fred Barker decided to experiment with them.

The information on how long it takes to anneal brass at different temperatures is also in Chapter 15 of my Big Book of Gun Gack II, "Annealing Brass," which describes the various methods I've experimented with over the years, from candles to the Annealing Made Perfect (AMP) machine.

John, that's an excellent example of how people make assumptions rather than checking things out for themselves. Fred was a pretty savvy guy.

After being hounded relentlessly by a 'fire poster, I reluctantly agreed to make a a copy of the setup I use...complete with detailed instructions and pictures. A couple weeks later he contacted me and was unhappy because the times I told him to expect didn't correlate to the time it took before the Tempilaq (which I had also supplied him with) would flow. I'll spare all the gorey details but after waaaay to much time trying to diagnose what was wrong, I mentioned that I preferred the small propane bottles...which I specified in writing that he use and included pictures of...to the larger ones.

His reply was: "Oh, I'm not using propane. I bought MAP gas instead."

The only good thing out of the whole situation was that I sent it all to him gratis just to help him out.

There really should be some sort of test....................

Your weather is blowing our way....stay warm. -Al

For the .223 based cases, it takes right at 8 seconds to reach 350 at the shoulder/body junction. For the 308-ish size cases, right at 10 seconds. For the WM size cases, it's right at 12 seconds.

With the 1/2" in the pan, an interesting phenomenon is that regardless of the size of case.....a small line of almost microscopic bubbles forms around the case at the water line right before the 350 Tempilaq goes liquid.

Good shootin' -Al

In laymans terms reloaders are differentiating them by calling stress relieving and annealing which is fine as it goes but technically they're both annealing. One is "Recovery (or Process) Annealing", the other is "Full Annealing". Basically they're differentiated by what happens to the microstructure.

Al,

Now that's a funny story!

I have another am going to post on our website, about a local friend who was wondering why the Forbes Rifle .270 Winchester he'd purchased wouldn't group very well at all. After going back and forth on it, he eventually brought the rifle and ammo to me. The rifle checked out fine, but the ammo (a combination of both handloads and factory) had bullet run-out up to .009". It also turned out that he had an alignment gauge, but was using it wrong....

The weather might be interesting for you! It was over 70 say before yesterday, but a north wind brought it down to the 30s before sunset, and it started to snow soon thereafter. We live in a semi-desert valley between two mountain ranges that catch most of the snow, and in a typical winter don't even have snow in the yard about 80% of the time. At dawn I had to shovel a path in the back yard so the dogs could go outside and perform their morning duties. Right now it isn't snowing, but is supposed to some more tonight....

John

It's been forty years since I've had classes in metallurgy, but IIRC we're looking at normalizing (stress releaving, increasing ductility and equalizing grain size) to full scale annealing which reduces hardness.

Thanks Al! I don't recall you giving the temprature of tempilaq you use in past post. 👍

I usually leave it out because people don't believe it anyway... while never taking the time to understand that temp is only one slice of the pie.

Good shootin' -Al

Recovery annealing, stress relieving if you want to call it that, is just as the name suggests, limits annealing to the recovery phase. There's no change to the grain structure. Full annealing, normalizing, etc, involve changes (recrystalization and grain growth) to the grain structure. That's why you see larger changes to the material properties with those processes than with recovery annealing.

you say our website, educate me on the what website you're talking about it might be something I want to check out.

It's www.riflesandrecipes.com, which is primarily for selling the books my wife Eileen and I write. Oh, and also our quarterly on-line "magazine," Rifle Loony News.

But there's also a blog section, where we each post short articles on various aspects of game cooking (Eileen's specialty) and hunting firearms, usually 3-4 times a month. Though lately, with hunting season starting, we haven't been keeping up quite that well!

Stress relieving (my term) is really more accurately termed as drawing back. Al

Thanks for the clarification 👍
I pulled out my old text book to refresh my memory. It discusses yellow brass but doesn't have a chart that shows how different temperatures affect the properties of it.

I hear ya! I have to dig out a book now and again for a memory refresh too

This document is old but it's a gold mine of information. It doesn't spell out the answers for reloaders but for technically minded people that are interested in the topic there's a lot to unpack in it. If you click on the PDF version that's the easiest to read. https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/items/5215

Easy doesn't have to be hard, and simple doesn't have to be complicated.

$70 in parts and a Sunday afternoon invested.

~In return I get a good consistent anneal after every firing that gives me .001" shoulder bumps and .002" neck tension, my personal requirements for precision handloads.
~I get the job done in much less time than any other method I've used, or any other method I've seen lauded on the interwebs.
~I didn't spend a small fortune to have what I needed.
~I have no burnt fingers, none, nada, zip.

Nothing less. Nothing more.

Thanks guys I’m tired of the drill socket and the other methods I’ve been using and just ordered one.

FWIW, the carrier in Tempilaq liquid can flash off after a while. The product gets thicker and the response time is way different than original.

There are several ways to address this. A look on the Markal site is worthwhile.

Very nice setup. Can you share your parts list?
I use drill, socket, torch and metronome app, or I have a salt bath setup that I like except for set up time.
But I also like projects so maybe I need a home made annealing machine as well ha ha.

So far, I've been really happy with my homemade induction annealer.

I ordered on Tuesday and received it today talk about fast shipping. The only thing that I could say was different than the video was that he said they opened the torches and tested them and didn’t. I’m fine with it but someone will complain and I can’t wait to try it.

That (Al's ring-o-fire) may work great but it ain't fer the clumsy among us. I'd best stick to my machine.

I ran into the same thing and that is what motivated me to buy an Anneal-rite 15 years ago.

Al,

When using your method and the “ring o fire” where on the brass do you apply the 350 degree Tempilaq?

I like the looks of this one and the reviews. A bit pricey.

https://www.amazon.com/Burstfire-Annealer-Burstfire-2in1-RED-V2-Annealing-Reloading/dp/B0B547XLWG

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...nealing-for-those-who-doubt#Post18451996

Apologies for not seeing this sooner.

Go to YouTube and look up Elfsters Rifles and Reloading annealers, its his design.

He has videos that include what parts you need and how to build one. It's been so long since I built mine that sources and prices may be different with how things are these days. I did get everything for mine from Amazon and Ebay.

Thanks Whitetail!

I would think different brands, even different lots, might heat up at different rates. Pretty sure I don’t want to go that far down the rabbit hole though…..

https://www.amazon.com/%E3%83%8E%E3%83%BC%E3%83%96%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%83%89-Annealer-Annealing-Treating-International/dp/B09FNXG46L

The one I got a couple of years ago. Love it.