I just read on the internet an article comparing the 25-05 vs 270 Winchester vs 6.5 Creedmoor. I’m saddened to learn my beloved 25-06 is an obsolete cartridge! Wonder if it still can harvest Desert Bighorns, Mule and Coues Deer plus Pronghorns like it once did?
sad and kinda true i have the same problem with my 257 Roberts rifles but heck if you like your 25-06 buy enough components to use for your life time maybe more for you can pass this fine cartridge down to a family member. i have loaded about 30 boxes of 257 Roberts for my family`s future to use my 257 Roberts rifles i gave them. so do as you can if 25-06 is your favorite use it to heck with these black rifles and new type cartridges your cartridge can and will kill deer as good and maybe better than these new ugly black rifles. Pete53
.25-06 is good- - - - -6.5-06 is better, and there's a lot more choice of bullet weights and designs in .264 to pick from. I'm in the process of building myself another, since I traded off the one I used for 20-something years.
If I cared about what other shooters thought of my guns, I would have spent more time trading guns than hunting.
The rifles have performed well for me on everything from rabbits to ele and Cape Buff and they will be passed on to my family when I pass. My Parker shotguns have also earned a place with my family. Same goes for my S&W hand guns.
chit like that statement is why so many people are tired of hearing / reading about the 6.5 creedmoor...
He didn't even mention the Creedmoor, except that it was compared to the 270 and 25-06. Why get so mad about it?? You guys that get your panties in a wad, may need to try one. You might be enlightened a little.
chit like that statement is why so many people are tired of hearing / reading about the 6.5 creedmoor...
He didn't even mention the Creedmoor, except that it was compared to the 270 and 25-06. Why get so mad about it?? You guys that get your panties in a wad, may need to try one. You might be enlightened a little.
I've got three custom 260s I don't see the need for a creedmoor..
I'm not the least bit mad but everything today is just about a creedmoor creedmoor and creedmoor...
I guess I should not at all so have a 25-06 I like it also various reasons and various loads
The 25-06 and 257wby still excel at flinging .400bc 100 grainers at high velocity with modest recoil. Still a useful tool for many.
the first centerfire rifle i ever shot (13? yrs old) was a 257wby Mark V custom (Sauer & Sons?)... punching out door locks in car body's on the scrap pile at 100+... great fun for a kid, and recoil was tolerable... i've inherited the leftover brass, dies and bullets... if i run across the "Right" 257 or 25-06, i'm buying it!...
Just did an Internet search, and apparently neither Remington or Ruger chamber the .25-06 in their bolt rifles anymore--which may be the reason for that statement.
But other companies still do, including Savage and Winchester.....
I've got three custom 260s I don't see the need for a creedmoor..
For you, probably no need for a Creedmoor. However, there does appear to be a want for that general category of ballistics. For others with that same want, but who don't have the same inclination/funds/time to get custom rifles, the Creedmoor provides a very practical easy button.
See Bob Milek on the .25-'06 including some discussion here from last year and last year is not very far gone. For better or worse I have an impression such writing/video as filters through today tends to be trying too hard to be current and gives up timeless. Hornady covered the .25-'06 in Podcast Episode 207 last week with perfectly competent names but nobody I've followed for years.
Pretty sure mine still works. Probably will in 200 years too.
Someone was at my shop this morning telling me of some article he's just read saying the 30-06 was obsolete. We both had a good laugh. 1st that anyone could be so stupid as to write that. More..........that any people could be even stupider then the author and actually believe him.
During my Internet search the .30-06 was still listed in ALL the centerfire rifles of the major American rifle companies. (Would be willing to bet that's true of the major rifle companies in Europe too....)
One meaning is "no longer useful". I think everyone hear agrees the 25-06 is still plenty useful.
Another would be "outmoded in design". There is no question that the 6.5mm Creedoor is a better design so yes the 25-06 is obsolete in that defintion.
10 years from now there won't be any comercial rifles chambered for the 25-06 and factory ammo will be scarce as hens teeth. That does not mean the 25-06 is not still useful then for someone who makes their own ammo but if you need to buy store bought ammo a 25-06 is not going to be very useful.
Twist rate and throat design are what holds the 25-06 back. If you get a custom barrel and custom throat then it's not a 25-06 anymore.
Times move on and lots of 250-3000 Savage rifle owners hated it when the 25-06 made that cartridge "obsolete". That's pretty close to the 6.5mm Creedmoor but for a few 0.001s of bullet diameter and twist/throat design.
All it takes is for Hornady to introduce a high BC ELDX/M and have it hyped to hell by some man bun having snowflake gun writer who likes to eat dehydrated meals on a mountain top and contemplates for hours how he/she/them is going to bury its turd with the least amount of environmental impact. There’s hope. Until then they’ll go on killing stuff with little fanfare and utter reliability per usual. The 257 Weatherby, 25-06 and 257 Bob and Bob AI just get it.
I read in Rifle Magazine, - about 1979 - that the 25-06 was marginal for caribou.
Funny- in the previous 3 years I had had 20-something one-shot bang-flops on caribou, out of Pt Hope. Ruger 77V.
Haven't read a Rifle magazine since, or pretty much any other such rag. Yeah- I know- not the publication's fault - it was on the author, whoever that was.
By Burn's definition (one of them), the 7X57 is obsolete too, because I haven't been able to find factory ammo for mine.
Remember when the 25 WSSM came out? I forgot what year that was, but I still have a gun magazine around here someplace ( G.& A.?, Shooting Times ?, I forgot which), that ran an article on the new 25 WSSM, I also can't recall the author. The article almost made it sound like the 25-06 was headed for extinction with all the praises it heaped on the 25WSSM. I'll have to dig that copy out. I kept it because I like my 25-06 and have had it since 1997, although I will admit to getting a 257 Weatherby in 2018, and I shoot the "Bee" a lot more now. So that's twice now that I hear the 25-06 is on the way out. I'll believe it when it happens, but I don't think it's gonna go away any time soon.
Claimed obsolescence in reference to firearms and the cartridges they fire is dubious at best. Guns last for centuries in some cases, and everything from long bows to air guns get used every year.
One meaning is "no longer useful". I think everyone hear agrees the 25-06 is still plenty useful.
Another would be "outmoded in design". There is no question that the 6.5mm Creedoor is a better design so yes the 25-06 is obsolete in that defintion.
10 years from now there won't be any comercial rifles chambered for the 25-06 and factory ammo will be scarce as hens teeth. That does not mean the 25-06 is not still useful then for someone who makes their own ammo but if you need to buy store bought ammo a 25-06 is not going to be very useful.
Twist rate and throat design are what holds the 25-06 back. If you get a custom barrel and custom throat then it's not a 25-06 anymore.
Times move on and lots of 250-3000 Savage rifle owners hated it when the 25-06 made that cartridge "obsolete". That's pretty close to the 6.5mm Creedmoor but for a few 0.001s of bullet diameter and twist/throat design.
A grand part of American rifle history has been shooting aerodynamic wafers at high velo. Despite being part of this, the 25-06 is a dandy and I’ve been right along side of it on a number of elk hunts. It surely can hold its own!
Let’s see how many wildcats based on the Creadmore case design reach the state of being commercially successful cartridges.
The gold standard is the 30-06 case which produced the 25-06, 270 Win, 280 Rem, 338-06, and 35 Whelen, not to mention several other wildcats.
When the creadewhatever case produces 5 other commercial cartridges, then its designers can legitimately boast.
Until then, pipe down.
I wonder if the creed case could even push a .358 rifle bullet out the barrel to a distance of 100 yards, mich less 200 yards. Anybody want to trust a creed cartridge to stop a charging predacious grizzly?
Funny thing I notice these days as to whatever the new trend is anything else is obsolete. Off top of head I remember magnum craze, beanfield rifles, all around rifles, ultra mags, short mags, light rifles, modern sporting rifles, probably others. The newer rounds canabalize each other before they sustain to super popularity like some of the old favorites. How many 7mm or 30 cals were the magnums of the day. The 6.5 creedmoor is enormously popular but all the prcs and other new round will be the 2506 and wsm 10-20 years from now. Something will come along and new trend will take off and the new and shiney crowd (I am proud member) will move on.
What exactly makes a cartridge obsolete? Are game animals any tougher now? Do bullets suddenly bounce off them?
When ammo manufacturers stop cataloging a cartridge it becomes a handloaders only proposition and if there isn't any factory ammo being cataloged soon there probably won't be any factory rifles cataloged either. Companies are good at introducing new cartridges, but not very good at supporting them if they lose market traction/share.
Think of all of the cartridges that have been all but abandoned by ammo manufacturers over the past 50 years, including the ones on this list:
Most shooters aren't handloaders, so the market for the most common cartridges get the manufacturing priority, leaving a lot of good, useful, but old cartridges to be produced as "seasonal" or "occasional" runs, so that ammo isn't always available and in recent years old standards like the 30 REM, 30-40 KRAG, 303 BRITISH, 32 WIN SPL, and 32 REM are scarce in many areas. Scarcity leads to hording and hording leads to more scarcity, not a positive thing for the one box of ammo per year or so hunter who generally isn't one to plan ahead.
Just so glad my beloved .275 Rigby, 9.3x74r & .405 Winchester didn't make that list! I would hate it if they wound up on the unwanted pile with the 25-06.
I suppose it could be looked at that way. I don't, and have always find it was easy to shoot, handload for, and my model 700 will shoot consistantly tiny groups . Actually it is one of my favorites, and as long as Nosler continues to make a .257 Partition bullet . I have use it on Bull Elk & Bull Moose with good success. Now with so many other bullets available, I believe monolithics will make it be even better on the larger deer species. I have not used these - for those. My only objection these days is the need for a longer barrel . It would be sweeter in a single shot , for my purposes.
Obsolete comes in many flavors. As far as performance on game, you could say the 30-30 is obsolete; the 300 Savage did it in. Except it is still a popular cartridge and 300 Savage kind of dimmed when 308 Winchester came on the scene.
Obsolete can come from the chambering not catching on and no one besides its originator making guns for it. When was the last time you heard of a new offering in 308 Marlin Express?
Obsolete can come from decades of dwindling demands for ammo and components. How many 30 Remington owners? How many 307 Winchester?
I own a Custom Mauser in 25-06. It was commissioned by my friend and neighbor, O.T. back in the early 80s, and it was famous around these neighboring ridges as a laser beam deer killer. I bought it off O.T. just after he went blind, and just before he died. I confess it has been one of my least successful projects over the past decade. I started with 117-grain Hornadys and every deer I shot with them ran a good long way. I had it back out with 100 grainers this year and never got a shot. O.T., BTW, used green box Remington ammo and didn't worry about what grains he chose.
I'm going to take a stab here. I'm not going to put this forward as an expert opinion. I'll just prattle a bit, and maybe you can see my point.
First off, let me set the scene. SW Bracken County is an intense cauldron of deer hunting. Everybody is out. 3-4 Generations have been at it since the 60s. The first of these preferred the 30-30. The next group were 30-06 devotees mixed with a large minority of 270 WIN. The group that roughly corresponds with my thirty-something sons has started exploring alternatives. The youngest cohort is still depending on their elders for choices.
In the eldest group sat O.T. He got his 25-06 Mauser back when the idea was still fairly new and the press was still good on it. He was a legendary hunter on our ridges. However, I never heard of anyone trying to emulate him. 270 WIN? A bunch. 243 WIN? Quite a few. 25-06? It was like it never registered with folks it was a deer cartridge.
Prior to O.T.'s rifle, I had just one data point on 25-06. I'd read somewhere that it tended to eat barrels.
I think the 257 Roberts is the cartridge that is becoming obsolete. I can't find any manufacturers chambering rifles in that round anymore and brass is very hard to come by and if you do find it, it's very expensive.
I bought a box of various 25 caliber bullets on this forum a few years back. It probably weighed 40-50 pounds. I think it was somewhere around $100 shipped. As I have a stock of brass for 250-3000, 257 Roberts, and 25-06, I do not find any of these "obsolete".
It is no more obsolete than the 303 British is. They both still work remarkably well and just because bullet makers' "self licking ice cream cone" mentality of perpetually "improving" by introducing new cartridges and the masses can't wait to gobble the propaganda strategy. Tell me again how a 270 WCF won't do anything (and more) that the Creedmoor does.
I think the 257 Roberts is the cartridge that is becoming obsolete. I can't find any manufacturers chambering rifles in that round anymore and brass is very hard to come by and if you do find it, it's very expensive.
IIRC, the 250-3000 and 257 ROB were declared to be obsolete when the 243 WIN and 244 REM were introduced in 1955.
Performance wise, the 250-3000 and 257 ROB were as useful as dual-purpose cartridges as the 243 WIN and 244 REM under most hunting scenarios, but neither cartridge was a big seller in Remington or Winchester rifles, so Remington and Winchester introduced new cartridges with a lot of hype and velocity claims that were more sizzle than steak as a way to sell more rifles.
They did it again when they introduced the SAUMs, WSMs, and WSSMs, new cartridges with a lot of hype as a way to sell more rifles.
I bought a box of various 25 caliber bullets on this forum a few years back. It probably weighed 40-50 pounds. I think it was somewhere around $100 shipped. As I have a stock of brass for 250-3000, 257 Roberts, and 25-06, I do not find any of these "obsolete".
yep i stock piled components too , i will mention this some of my 25 caliber rifles i put new Brux barrels on them with a 8 twist and that made them a better long range cartridge for heavier grain 25 caliber bullets . these are the 25 caliber bullet rifles i did = 1 -25 Creedmoor rifle 8 twist Brux barrel , 2 - 257 Roberts rifles 8 twist Brux barrel , 1 - 257 Weatherby mag. rifle Brux barrel . seems the 8 twist barrel is a sweet spot for 25 caliber bullets ?
tell us now about that 8 twist 257 Bee! I plan on doing the same thing
used a Weatherby Mark 5 action ,fiber stock , put a contour # 4 ,28 inch Brux barrel 8 twist , glass bedded and floated this rifle , Nightforce picatinny base and rings , 5.5 -22 x56 Nightforce scope . this rifle and my other 257 Weatherby mag. rifles like 103 gr. Hammer Hunter bullets ,Reloader 25 powder , my velocity with this rifle was an average 3680 FPS. 3 shot groups were 3/4 inch at 100 yards , but my Ruger #1 257 Weatherby mag. with a Brux barrel 27 inch ,10 twist shoots 1/2 inch 3 shot groups at 100 yards with the same loaded cartridges . but i would still do a 8 twist for a Weatherby mag. i purchased a brand new 257 Weatherby mag. reamer used for all my 257 Weatherby mags. and from now on for all of my rifles i will never ever rent a reamer on any cartridge ever again there is a difference. i used the Berger reloading book for my recipe 1 gr. below max.
I don;t see the .25-06 hampered by twist and bullet selection. I have shot game with it to about 450 yards. Minimum hold over perfect hit. I think too many hunters are brain washed by this quick twist bs and the need for longer bullets. Maybe if you are shooting target but for hunting bullsh&t. Too much of Stick's mentality.
I'd say back before affordable rangefinders, clicky scopes, Christmas tree scopes, ballistics apps...the .25-06 played a more valuable role in the simple flat trajectory...and it was more affordable than say the Weatherby line. Now, with the advances, every cartridge is a medium range cartridge. Now it is just another flat shooter, mild recoil, proven cartridge...obsolete? No. You wanna see obsolete, let's take another look at the cartridges of the week craze over the last 25 years...your Noslers, Thompsons, super short mags, ultra mags...I predict many will be impossible to find brass for, let alone factory ammo.
I don;t see the .25-06 hampered by twist and bullet selection. I have shot game with it to about 450 yards. Minimum hold over perfect hit. I think too many hunters are brain washed by this quick twist bs and the need for longer bullets. Maybe if you are shooting target but for hunting bullsh&t. Too much of Stick's mentality.
You’re arguing BC at 450 yards. Is your argument the same at 650? It’s really irrelevant how many people are “brainwashed” and only whether a higher BC helps people. Why holdover? Aren’t you concerned about drift? Why is this associated to another firemember? Data are facts and have no innate value, people assign their feelings to them.
i had the TC Venture in 25-06 and 115gr Nosler BT and IMR4350 (i think). i shot 3 or 4 deer with it, got bored and sold it. 25-06 does what the 270 Winchester does, kills deer. in my mind, the 25-06 is right on the line for overbore. i think that the 257 Roberts is about right, for me. i hunt in close cover, 60ish yards and less is good for me.
I am not agruing anything but most hunters don't need this fast twist long bullet stuff.If you are shooting ultra long range, ok, but most hunters don't need this for their hunting. Range finders, turrets, excellent. But how many folks in the field use them or even need them. They are great, but to the point is most game is taken at less than 500 yards. So fast twist is unimportant. Up to 500 I can do all I want with what I have. I have turrets, range finders I enjoy them. If all works out, the range finders are a great aid in determining exactly the range once I know that I am set. Anymore I don't shoot most game over 400 for a number of reasons. If this fast twist makes you happy fine, I tried it. But for hunting an most shooting it is not that important.
I am not agruing anything but most hunters don't need this fast twist long bullet stuff.If you are shooting ultra long range, ok, but most hunters don't need this for their hunting. Range finders, turrets, excellent. But how many folks in the field use them or even need them. They are great, but to the point is most game is taken at less than 500 yards. So fast twist is unimportant. Up to 500 I can do all I want with what I have. I have turrets, range finders I enjoy them. If all works out, the range finders are a great aid in determining exactly the range once I know that I am set. Anymore I don't shoot most game over 400 for a number of reasons. If this fast twist makes you happy fine, I tried it. But for hunting an most shooting it is not that important.
I don't disagree with that, but it seems that everything is a "numbers game" anymore and regardless of who uses what and practicality, numbers are what push popularity and drive obsolescence.
I live in the southeast - we have long seasons with liberal limits and year round shoots for varmints / hogs etc. Only reason I bring that up is even if you shot hundreds of rounds a year at game, typically you'd have to LOOK for places to shoot more than 300y and most of our game shots are 50-150y. I'm sure I could do just about 100% of my hunting with a Savage M99 in .250-3000. Clearly, just about any obsolete round and any multicoated scope would work just fine for me, but I can't say I don't appreciate the "easy button" that some of the newer optics, projectiles, and chamberings like 6CM, 6.5CM, and the various PRC rounds offer, even though I only own a two rifles rifle (300 blackout and 6.5CM) in a chamberinging that is less than 50y old.
Love my 25-06, been using it for 12 years or so. Its the original gray stock Montana and with a VX3 (no dials) on it carries like a dream. Deer never go far. My shots with it are under 150 yards and if I need high BC and dials I'll take something else on the hunt. If it's becoming obsolete I'll have to keep my eyes open for a cheap obsolete rifle as I've got a good supply of bullets.
I am not agruing anything but most hunters don't need this fast twist long bullet stuff.If you are shooting ultra long range, ok, but most hunters don't need this for their hunting. Range finders, turrets, excellent. But how many folks in the field use them or even need them. They are great, but to the point is most game is taken at less than 500 yards. So fast twist is unimportant. Up to 500 I can do all I want with what I have. I have turrets, range finders I enjoy them. If all works out, the range finders are a great aid in determining exactly the range once I know that I am set. Anymore I don't shoot most game over 400 for a number of reasons. If this fast twist makes you happy fine, I tried it. But for hunting an most shooting it is not that important.
if you use Hammer bullets and some other brand bullets you better know the twist of your rifle barrel if you plan on using these types of bullets some Hammer bullets and others need a fast twist some not so much. but if you don`t shoot or reload much you probably will not ever know the difference. as has been posted already your keyboard or reloading ballistics in a reloading book won`t steer the bullet for you.
Just because some dim bulb outdoor writer says something doesn't mean it is true. these guys have to grind out something in print. The 25-06 is a good cartridge for big game.
Love my 25-06, been using it for 12 years or so. Its the original gray stock Montana and with a VX3 (no dials) on it carries like a dream. Deer never go far. My shots with it are under 150 yards and if I need high BC and dials I'll take something else on the hunt. If it's becoming obsolete I'll have to keep my eyes open for a cheap obsolete rifle as I've got a good supply of bullets.
As a youngster I remember reading articles claiming the 30-30 was obsolete.... it isn't and neither is the 25-06 I am 62.... so the 25-06 won't be obsolete for at least another 40 yrs....
The 25-06 has been on my radar a few times but I never did get one. Now that it’s obsolete I think I have to have one since my interests run that way
Isn't that the truth??
Just when I decide to rebarrel one of my 7mm-08's to over to a 25-06, this "happy" thread comes to light. Oh well, the 25 cal. bullets, 25-06 brass, powder, primers, dies, tikka L.A. bolt stop and L.A. magazine have all been accumulated. The ends we go to just for the love of reloading, shooting and hunting.
While I'm quite happy with the two I own, I'd say yes by current case design standards. Most of my firearms are chambered for cartridges matching that description. Finding ammo and components for lots of them is dead easy-they're old standards. Something being, or being labelled, obsolete doesn't mean much to me.
My first experience with the .25-06 took place 20 years ago, on a "cull" hunt in Ireland, of all places. It was hosted by Heym Firearms of Germany on the estate of the last living British earl in Ireland. The head guide was a well-off plumber named Liam Kenehan, who leased the deer-hunting rights from the earl.
I ended up using Liam's straight-pull Heym .25-06, which he'd used to take fallow and red deer out to 600 yards, thanks to the multi-dot Schmidt & Bender on the rifle. I didn't shoot anything that far, but did take one female fallow deer at 450--which ain't all that far these days, but was the longest shot encountered during the cull.
That was using Remington 120-grain Core-Lokt factory ammo, which is what Liam had used to take a big red stag at 600. But as we all know now, that's a totally inappropriate choice of not just cartridge but ammo and bullet. Though will note that central Ireland is less windy than many places, including the Campfire....
I had a Ruger No.1B 26” barrel in 25-06. It wore an old Leupold 4x16 and I loaded 110 grain Sierra BTSP as fast as I could with RL25. That thing was a frozen rope and if I could see’m I could kill’em. At least on the farm I hunted. I shot many angled across a 40 acre potato field or so. Wish I still had that rifle.
PA has an elk season and draws from applicants for the tags. Been asked a few times why I've never applied. Usually respond that if I can't use one of my 25-06s, ain't interested. If someone suggests that's not "enough gun", point out that it was good enough For Bob Milek. These days that often results in a blank stare.
Originally a 270 minimum caliber for our elk, changed to 6.5 a few years ago. Apparently to make everyone happy? Friend has a M7 in 260 that was once his favorite deer rifle. Now he totes one in 6.5 Creedmore. No idea what that was all about?
Between a buddy and I, well beyond a couple dozen dead whitetails with a 25-06 since the 1970s and mostly with a 100gr bullet. More than a few were dropped where they walked or stood, past 400 yards.
I saw a box of Hornady 135 gr ELD-M .257" bullets yesterday. The label indicated you need to use them with a 1 in 8 twist .624? Bc. Not many 25's out there with 8 twist rifle barrels. 25-06 ammo is scarce but that doesn't.make the ammo or rifles obsolete if you handload. If you don't handload you are the obsolete factor..lol got it?..mb
Edit to add the only surving load in Remington line of ammo for quite sometime has been the 120 gr corelokt. I bought a pile of them as component bullets they did a great job. I found when shot full throttle 100 gr corelokts and the Hornady 100 SP were to explosive on meat. When using the 25-06 I waited for a broadside dbl lung shot thru the ribs or ended up with alot of bloodshot meat..mb
I love the 25-06 and have owned one for over 45 years. I have killed more deer and varmints with it that is unreal. That was my first high power rifle. I have two now, a sporter barrel and my heavy barrel varmint special. I reload for mine and will continue to do so. I have numerous components stocked up. It is NOT OBSOLETE, just like my gunsmith says to me when the 204 come out. He says this is the best caliber going, you need to get you one. I said what will the 204 do that my 22-250 will not do. He got very quiet and then said, not a thing, it will do it all. They keep pushing new calibers hoping you will fall for all the hype.
The 25-06 was my first center fire rifle and it killed the first half dozen deer I shot, plus quite a few other critters. Then my son and a friend used it to kill antelope and deer. I still have that gun and I’m guessing it’s still highly effective for deer size animals. The trend today, in an effort to sell more rifles, dies etc it long for caliber bullets and fast twist so you get an inch or three less drop at 600 or 800 yards. Nothing wrong with that, but that has zero interest to me.
I guess I didn't get the memo that it was obsolete as I just bought my second one a Browning B78. Then again it wouldn't have mattered to me as some of my favorite calibers are "obsolete or at least threatened with extinction" such as the 250/3000, it's bigger brother the 300 Savage, 38/55, 6MM Rem, 405 Win., 25 WSSM ect.
I own a 25-06 a 25th anniversary gift from my wife 10 years ago that is a great local deer & hopefully an antelope rifle one of these days. I’d rather have had a 257 Weatherby in hindsight but it’s a very useful cartridge for mid sized game & even an OK woman/kid elk gun.
I had a squirrel of a scope on mine to start so thought it fell short of its reputation as very accurate. Once I replaced it my affection for the rifle has increased. But I think the new long bullet craze has likely doomed it to the back of the used gun racks. I don’t miss the 30-40 Krag I sold years ago it was a deer killer but the ugliest rifle I’ve ever owned & not very efficient. The 25-06 has a long way to go before it reaches Krag status but the creedmoor probably has signaled its demise.
I own a 25-06 a 25th anniversary gift from my wife 10 years ago that is a great local deer & hopefully an antelope rifle one of these days. I’d rather have had a 257 Weatherby in hindsight but it’s a very useful cartridge for mid sized game & even an OK woman/kid elk gun.
I had a squirrel of a scope on mine to start so thought it fell short of its reputation as very accurate. Once I replaced it my affection for the rifle has increased. But I think the new long bullet craze has likely doomed it to the back of the used gun racks. I don’t miss the 30-40 Krag I sold years ago it was a deer killer but the ugliest rifle I’ve ever owned & not very efficient. The 25-06 has a long way to go before it reaches Krag status but the creedmoor probably has signaled its demise.
Claimed obsolescence in reference to firearms and the cartridges they fire is dubious at best. Guns last for centuries in some cases, and everything from long bows to air guns get used every year.
What exactly makes a cartridge obsolete? Are game animals any tougher now? Do bullets suddenly bounce off them?
I understand and like the way you make your point!
But, I'll offer a definition, too:
obsolete (adjective) cartridge
1) An obsolete cartridge is no longer in general use and/or fallen into disuse. 2) An obsolete cartridge is of a discarded or outmoded type and/or out of date.
The 25-06 doesn't fit either description. Think the writer the OP read on "internet" probably wants attention! Seems a lot of writers use this word "obsolete" for attention but very few offer a definition much less a list of obsolete rifle cartridges. Even Wikipedia doesn't go there with a list to back it up!
Here's one shot at Obsolescent North American rifle cartridges I found:
What exactly makes a cartridge obsolete? Are game animals any tougher now? Do bullets suddenly bounce off them?
I understand and like the way you make your point!
But, I'll offer a definition, too:
obsolete (adjective) cartridge
1) An obsolete cartridge is no longer in general use and/or fallen into disuse. 2) An obsolete cartridge is of a discarded or outmoded type and/or out of date.
The 25-06 doesn't fit either description. Think the writer the OP read on "internet" probably wants attention! Seems a lot of writers use this word "obsolete" for attention but very few offer a definition much less a list of obsolete rifle cartridges. Even Wikipedia doesn't go there with a list to back it up!
Here's one shot at Obsolescent North American rifle cartridges I found:
Sounds like a clickbait piece to me. Get the boys all worked up and pocket the nickels.
Don’t have one, and always figgered my .270s filled the same role and offered a bit of bonus bullet weight, but it’s a fine round, and like the .270 could be updated a bit with a faster twist barrel to shoot the few high B.C. bullets available, if that trips your trigger. Not worth it to me here in the Wild East; 100-160gr are plenty.
If I had one, I’d find some high-quality brass and pick up 200-300, along with a supply of bullets it liked, because the ammo and component market is pretty iffy. IIRC .25 fans here have been complaining about their favorite bullets being discontinued for a while now. Prepare, Grasshopper!
Not that it matters, but did anyone else notice that the above list is the same group of cartridges repeated 4 times over?
No LOL, you noticed first even before me. Sorry about that. I was cut and paste to try to keep it simpler. I did find a UK list too. But didn't include them, just the North America list.
Sounds like a clickbait piece to me. Get the boys all worked up and pocket the nickels.
Don’t have one, and always figgered my .270s filled the same role and offered a bit of bonus bullet weight, but it’s a fine round, and like the .270 could be updated a bit with a faster twist barrel to shoot the few high B.C. bullets available, if that trips your trigger. Not worth it to me here in the Wild East; 100-160gr are plenty.
If I had one, I’d find some high-quality brass and pick up 200-300, along with a supply of bullets it liked, because the ammo and component market is pretty iffy. IIRC .25 fans here have been complaining about their favorite bullets being discontinued for a while now. Prepare, Grasshopper!
Thats why i bought 10 boxes of 117 Pro Hunters when they decided to discontinue them.
The 25-06, the 270, the 280 and the 30-06 are all obsolete. The bullets from these rifles will only bounce off animals any more, that is if the bullets get that far.
The 25-06, the 270, the 280 and the 30-06 are all obsolete. The bullets from these rifles will only bounce off animals any more, that is if the bullets get that far.
The 87gn Hornady is overlooked by many for the .25/06. I used it a lot in the .257 Weatherby loaded over 2800fps during the 70's and 80's so it was a natural loaded to around 3600fps in the .25/06 where it proved very accurate and useful in my 26" barrel.
Best choices overall that I found were the 100gn Hornady and Barnes TTSX (probably the most useful) with the 117gn Hornady BT and 120gn Partition also proving very accurate and at plus 3200fps velocity levels. Those 100 grainers shot under half inch using 760 powder at 3450 to just over 3500fps.
Tried a lot of others from the 75gn original X bullet up to 115gn TSX and a few others but the best 2 for me with a common sighting was the 100TTSX and 120gn Partition.
56.7 grains of H4831sc behind 100 grain Hornady SP is the most accurate in my 700 ADL and 700 Classic. Of course, Hornady stopped making that bullet.
I guess the 117 SST shot really well, but I shot a doe with that bullet, and it had a soft ball size entrance wound. I hear the bullet has been improved. I'll never know from my experience! When I die, I hope to have the bean-counters at Hornady be my pall bearers so they can let me down one last time.
I'll be working with Barnes and Nosler this year with that cartridge. Bye bye Hornady!
The best load so far with the Partition is: 100 grain Nosler Partition, 9 ½, 51.9 grains IMR4451. I have only a pound or so of that powder and the outlook of finding more seems bleak.
I have not worked with Barnes yet though. I got my hopes on 80 grain TTSX's. According to Barnes, their most accurate powder is H4831sc with that bullet:
H4831SC 57.0 grains 3396 fps, to 62.0 grains 3656 fps
I have had good luck with the NAB 110gr but with Nosler thinking there stuff is worth $75/box when the supply is gone I'll look for something else like the Sierria 117gr Game king
The main things I find going obsolete these days are... the GunWriters. We really don’t need their advice or opinions to make good decisions concerning what rifle/caliber/bullet to shoot anymore. Just my 2 cents. peak98
Originally Posted by Desertranger
I just read on the internet an article comparing the 25-05 vs 270 Winchester vs 6.5 Creedmoor. I’m saddened to learn my beloved 25-06 is an obsolete cartridge! Wonder if it still can harvest Desert Bighorns, Mule and Coues Deer plus Pronghorns like it once did?
Sounds like a clickbait piece to me. Get the boys all worked up and pocket the nickels.
Don’t have one, and always figgered my .270s filled the same role and offered a bit of bonus bullet weight, but it’s a fine round, and like the .270 could be updated a bit with a faster twist barrel to shoot the few high B.C. bullets available, if that trips your trigger. Not worth it to me here in the Wild East; 100-160gr are plenty.
If I had one, I’d find some high-quality brass and pick up 200-300, along with a supply of bullets it liked, because the ammo and component market is pretty iffy. IIRC .25 fans here have been complaining about their favorite bullets being discontinued for a while now. Prepare, Grasshopper!
One meaning is "no longer useful". I think everyone hear agrees the 25-06 is still plenty useful.
Another would be "outmoded in design". There is no question that the 6.5mm Creedoor is a better design so yes the 25-06 is obsolete in that defintion.
10 years from now there won't be any comercial rifles chambered for the 25-06 and factory ammo will be scarce as hens teeth. That does not mean the 25-06 is not still useful then for someone who makes their own ammo but if you need to buy store bought ammo a 25-06 is not going to be very useful.
Twist rate and throat design are what holds the 25-06 back. If you get a custom barrel and custom throat then it's not a 25-06 anymore.
Times move on and lots of 250-3000 Savage rifle owners hated it when the 25-06 made that cartridge "obsolete". That's pretty close to the 6.5mm Creedmoor but for a few 0.001s of bullet diameter and twist/throat design.
All this.
I know it's hard for most to relate here, but many of these sorts of discussions and articles are centered around and driven by availability of FACTORY AMMO. And if the company that put the 25.06 into the world no longer deems it worthwhile, that ought to be a smoke signal that all can see from about any distance.
I have a 25-06 that I'm fond of, but it really doesn't do anything that the other rounds in the safe can't accomplish. I shoot the 115 NBT from my Kimber Montana and it's performed well. No magic, just kills about like everything else I use. In all honesty, I can't tell a difference between it and anything from .223 on up for deer. Most of my shots are within 200 yards and I bust lungs. They all have a short death dash then it's over. With all that being said, I still think the 270 is a better cartridge in a long action.
As far as being obsolete, it's not there yet for me. I have more components for it than I'll ever use. If I had it to do all over again, I would have picked a two or three centerfire cartridges and piled up supplies for those chamberings. Instead I have mixture of stuff that doesn't get used much....and the 25-06 wouldn't have been in that line up. I still like it though. I bought it because of the rifle, not the round.
I killed a buck and a doe this year with my 25-06 Montana. Buck was about 70 yards across a powerline. The blood spot in the picture below was the exit. The 115 NBT entered a couple inches back from the crease and left a small exit hole. Insides were trashed. Ran about 30 yards and rolled.
Cascade, I use the CT version of the same bullet (for aesthetics) in my 25-284 and agree completely with your assessment. It has been very impressive for such a small bullet. Like through shoulder and 3/4 of the remainder of 250 +lb hogs. Deer don’t stop them.
After Hornady stopped making my favorite 120 gr open point bullet I rebarreled mine. But one thing I've noticed is regardless of bullet weights, lots of people like the quick kills associated with this caliber. There must be something going on, it rocks!!
After Hornady stopped making my favorite 120 gr open point bullet I rebarreled mine. But one thing I've noticed is regardless of bullet weights, lots of people like the quick kills associated with this caliber. There must be something going on, it rocks!!
I've found them at 2 different shops here, so I snagged them..
Useful but sales lagging...I've had one ever since Remington made it a factory cartridge.
Another under that category is the 204 Ruger.
Sadly, the 204R is a short lived cartridge. Not that I'm going to say that about the 25-06, because it's been around for quite a while now. I know some guys that love that 204, but it is one that falls on its face after 300 yards. I've found the 22-250 to be a much better cartridge. But I digress...
That company actually no longer exists except in name, which I’m sure you know, and are likely having trouble keeping the wolf from the door, leaving little spare change for supporting marginal “earners” as they say in the mob shows. Maybe later they can crank out a “Classic” version and get the ammo company to make a run or two.
These threads always pique my curiosity and I just checked and found ammo, some under $30, and brass, too dear for me I’m afraid. Better to buy some boxes of Prvi and reload the empties. Anyway, there’s enough available that fans can take charge of their situations.
Useful but sales lagging...I've had one ever since Remington made it a factory cartridge.
Another under that category is the 204 Ruger.
Sadly, the 204R is a short lived cartridge. Not that I'm going to say that about the 25-06, because it's been around for quite a while now. I know some guys that love that 204, but it is one that falls on its face after 300 yards. I've found the 22-250 to be a much better cartridge. But I digress...
Yep its been around 104+ years. Neidner in 1920 but some sources say that Springfield Armory developed a 25.06 during WW1 and thats where Neidner and a bunch of other gunsmiths got the dies and other tooling. Niedner also built the first 257 Roberts rifle for Ned Roberts. The problem for the 25 Niedner and a boon for the Roberts was the powder selection was to fast for the 25 Niedner but worked fine in the Roberts. IMR powders in the 30’s cured both.
Useful but sales lagging...I've had one ever since Remington made it a factory cartridge.
Another under that category is the 204 Ruger.
Sadly, the 204R is a short lived cartridge. Not that I'm going to say that about the 25-06, because it's been around for quite a while now. I know some guys that love that 204, but it is one that falls on its face after 300 yards. I've found the 22-250 to be a much better cartridge. But I digress...
That hasn't been my experience, but I mostly use the .204 for prairie dogs. In general it's my 300-500 yard PD round--after the closer dogs have been killed or spooked by .17s. Beyond 500 I use either a 1-8 twist .223, or a 13-pound 6XC. (Oh, and while we still have a couple .22-250s, they have 1-8 twists and get used for deer and pronghorns these days.)
While the latest iteration of Remington has apparently dropped the .204 in their rifles, Ruger still chambers it.
Just saying the Lebel was one of the oldest and most obsolete cartridges on the planet. If I can do a quick search and find it available I don’t see the 25-06 going anywhere. In fact today at the local Family Farm and Home I found four different varieties of 25-06 on the shelf.
Just saying the Lebel was one of the oldest and most obsolete cartridges on the planet. If I can do a quick search and find it available I don’t see the 25-06 going anywhere. In fact today at the local Family Farm and Home I found four different varieties of 25-06 on the shelf.
Same sort of deal in the local stores here, even in a relatively small Montana town of less than 2000 people. The two stores that regularly stock ammo are both ranch/hardware type stores.
Also one of my friends who's long been one the most successful local elk hunters has been using it for years now. Like a lot of elk hunters who started in the 1960s and 70s, he jumped on the magnum trend and used 7mms and .300s, then grew weary of the recoil. One of his first "downsizing" rounds was the .257 Weatherby, but had been using the .25-06 for a while now, taking a 6-point in the Missouri Breaks when he drew a bull tag a couple years ago. (Oh, and he doesn't use "premium" bullets.)
I always lusted after the 257 and 270 Weatherbys. Never owned one but always wanted one. I had three three 25-06s and every one of them was a deer killing machine. They just seemed to be the right combination with 100-120 bullets for DRT kills on deer. Perhaps I need another one 🤔
I have an article from 1932 called "Obsolete Deer Rifles" by Lee Cady. It goes on to explain how the 32-40 and 38-55 are superior to the 30-30 and 30-06. So the obsolete term has been being applied to cartridges for at least that long
The real killing power of an accurately aimed 25-06 is with 115-120 grain bullets not the lighter ones. Shoot enough deer and antelope with both you will see the fifference. Mb
The 25/06 has fallen my lifecylce. I believe I was 12 when I had read that it would be chambered in the model 700. I then energetically told my Uncle about this...he then when out and promptly ordered one. I inherited the rifle when he passed, but he had loaned it to me all along. It was a game getter, Bull Elk and Moose, Mountain Goat and Sheep...and our deer. Once I was tempted on a Boar Grizzly. 115 & 120 Nosler Partitions. If drilling little holes on paper and Game is obsolete...count me in
I've been shooting a 25.06 for over 35yrs and it is and always has been my favorite caliber. The Speer 120gr Hot-cor is my favorite bullet, it's very accurate from my CDL and it is without a doubt pure deer poison. The 25.06 isn't obsolete here or will it ever be. Mike
I absolutely agree about some gun writers, especially 2 who are brothers: if it's not the latest and greatest(and most expensive), it's not good enough and is obsolete. We all should ignore gun writers with the exception of John Barness and Craig Boddington.
I don;t see the .25-06 hampered by twist and bullet selection. I have shot game with it to about 450 yards. Minimum hold over perfect hit. I think too many hunters are brain washed by this quick twist bs and the need for longer bullets. Maybe if you are shooting target but for hunting bullsh&t. Too much of Stick's mentality.
You’re arguing BC at 450 yards. Is your argument the same at 650? It’s really irrelevant how many people are “brainwashed” and only whether a higher BC helps people. Why holdover? Aren’t you concerned about drift? Why is this associated to another firemember? Data are facts and have no innate value, people assign their feelings to them.
One point is that few ethical hunters are good enough shots to pull the trigger on a big game animal beyond 400 or so yards, in perfect conditions. A lot fewer should take such a shot in imperfect conditions. All of that isn’t taking into account the animal moving unexpectedly, especially during bullet flight. At 700 yards, that’s about a full second for a 127 gr. LRX from a Creedmoor. That also includes 43” of wind drift in a 10 MPH crosswind. You’d better be good at judging wind and guessing crosswinds down range.
Much closer is much better…and this thread is getting me thinking about a 25-06 again.
Let’s see how many wildcats based on the Creadmore case design reach the state of being commercially successful cartridges.
The gold standard is the 30-06 case which produced the 25-06, 270 Win, 280 Rem, 338-06, and 35 Whelen, not to mention several other wildcats.
When the creadewhatever case produces 5 other commercial cartridges, then its designers can legitimately boast.
Until then, pipe down.
I wonder if the creed case could even push a .358 rifle bullet out the barrel to a distance of 100 yards, mich less 200 yards. Anybody want to trust a creed cartridge to stop a charging predacious grizzly?
Well there are about a zillion of them already simply because the .308 is the parent case for the Creedmoor.
Let’s see how many wildcats based on the Creadmore case design reach the state of being commercially successful cartridges.
The gold standard is the 30-06 case which produced the 25-06, 270 Win, 280 Rem, 338-06, and 35 Whelen, not to mention several other wildcats.
When the creadewhatever case produces 5 other commercial cartridges, then its designers can legitimately boast.
Until then, pipe down.
I wonder if the creed case could even push a .358 rifle bullet out the barrel to a distance of 100 yards, mich less 200 yards. Anybody want to trust a creed cartridge to stop a charging predacious grizzly?
Well there are about a zillion of them already simply because the .308 is the parent case for the Creedmoor.
I’ve been using a 25-06 for a while and a 204 on prairie dogs for a couple of years. They both seem to me to be great cartridges for their intended purposes. The 204 is a better cartridge than the 223 for PD’s but I use it too. To me, when premium bullets came out for the 25-06, the cartridge was raised to a whole new level. Having written that, mostly what I shoot in the 25-06 has been 100 grain Hornady bullets and they are great deer and antelope bullets. I’ve never taken the 25-06 elk hunting, but that’s not due to the cartridge’s shortfall.
There’s lots of neat tools for showing bullet drop, defection due to wind, energy, & bullet velocity out to distances way beyond where I’d shoot game at. Compare the 25-06, 270, 280, 30-06 etc to the new cartridges. If you do, you might be surprised at results. It’s not as big a deal as you might think.
I’ve been using a 25-06 for a while and a 204 on prairie dogs for a couple of years. They both seem to me to be great cartridges for their intended purposes. The 204 is a better cartridge than the 223 for PD’s but I use it too. To me, when premium bullets came out for the 25-06, the cartridge was raised to a whole new level. Having written that, mostly what I shoot in the 25-06 has been 100 grain Hornady bullets and they are great deer and antelope bullets. I’ve never taken the 25-06 elk hunting, but that’s not due to the cartridge’s shortfall.
There’s lots of neat tools for showing bullet drop, defection due to wind, energy, & bullet velocity out to distances way beyond where I’d shoot game at. Compare the 25-06, 270, 280, 30-06 etc to the new cartridges. If you do, you might be surprised at results. It’s not as big a deal as you might think.
Bingo! I have taken both mature Bull Elk & Moose with my 25/06. One of each, both abour 250 yards, good conditions and both were broadside shots . This was in 1982 & 83 and I used (1 )120 Partition on each. Textbook, kills and the Moose didn't take a step. I carried my model 700 on my Sheep hunts in those days. The only negative( for me) was the longer barrel Unless we are purer than the driven snow, or a saint,we have cartridge biases Yeah, I don't see any improvement on the older chamberings and 400 yards is a questionable range with any Elk cartridge/ rifle combination . Elk hunting around here, I am usually on a brushy , timbered mountainside, I am puffing like an old steam engine and I have had hunters shoot from over me. Further from the Bull ,missing or worse. I have raised livestock, love my horses and love our wildlife. I see hunting as an extention of these things. Maybe, it is a question of fair chase. What exactly is fair chase these days? Sorry, I digressed a little... My little old opinion
The 25-06 Rem IMO could be at it’s best with today’s available powders. It was hell on game when it was a wildcat with no good powders or bullets available. With today’s powders it could reach it’s optimum performance. Unfortunately it now appears to be handicapped because of the lack of high BC bullet availability and hunters that think they need a 1,000 yard rig for all their needs. In truth it’s great for a low recoiling zipper of a round that puts game down. Trouble is most want a chamber that could be a bit more reliable on larger game at a distance, enter the 270 WCF.
Let’s see how many wildcats based on the Creadmore case design reach the state of being commercially successful cartridges.
The gold standard is the 30-06 case which produced the 25-06, 270 Win, 280 Rem, 338-06, and 35 Whelen, not to mention several other wildcats.
When the creadewhatever case produces 5 other commercial cartridges, then its designers can legitimately boast.
Until then, pipe down.
I wonder if the creed case could even push a .358 rifle bullet out the barrel to a distance of 100 yards, mich less 200 yards. Anybody want to trust a creed cartridge to stop a charging predacious grizzly?
Well there are about a zillion of them already simply because the .308 is the parent case for the Creedmoor.
you mean the 30 TC is the parent case.
Whose parent case is??
Basically all .473 case head cartridges are off of the '06 if one wants to split hairs.
Let’s see how many wildcats based on the Creadmore case design reach the state of being commercially successful cartridges.
The gold standard is the 30-06 case which produced the 25-06, 270 Win, 280 Rem, 338-06, and 35 Whelen, not to mention several other wildcats.
When the creadewhatever case produces 5 other commercial cartridges, then its designers can legitimately boast.
Until then, pipe down.
I wonder if the creed case could even push a .358 rifle bullet out the barrel to a distance of 100 yards, mich less 200 yards. Anybody want to trust a creed cartridge to stop a charging predacious grizzly?
Well there are about a zillion of them already simply because the .308 is the parent case for the Creedmoor.
you mean the 30 TC is the parent case.
Whose parent case is??
Basically all .473 case head cartridges are off of the '06 if one wants to split hairs.
If I recall correctly, the 8x57 was .473" before even the 06.
Let’s see how many wildcats based on the Creadmore case design reach the state of being commercially successful cartridges.
The gold standard is the 30-06 case which produced the 25-06, 270 Win, 280 Rem, 338-06, and 35 Whelen, not to mention several other wildcats.
When the creadewhatever case produces 5 other commercial cartridges, then its designers can legitimately boast.
Until then, pipe down.
I wonder if the creed case could even push a .358 rifle bullet out the barrel to a distance of 100 yards, mich less 200 yards. Anybody want to trust a creed cartridge to stop a charging predacious grizzly?
Well there are about a zillion of them already simply because the .308 is the parent case for the Creedmoor.
you mean the 30 TC is the parent case.
Whose parent case is??
Basically all .473 case head cartridges are off of the '06 if one wants to split hairs.
If I recall correctly, the 8x57 was .473" before even the 06.
Honestly, between my son and I we've topped over 200+ animals with 25-06's over a 20 year span here in Texas and never thought we needed anything else. Most of these were taken in West Texas, culling large ranches for exotics and hogs and yes, a lot were head shots at closer ranges. For the 200-400 yard shots, the only thing that mattered was shot placement and the bullet used.
Know having said that, I just recommended to a new 26 year old hunter that's like a second son to me to buy a 6.5 Creedmore for hunting here in Texas instead. Do I think it's "better" than the 25-06? No, I don't but twist rates, ammo selection(he doesn't reload), and inherent accuracy of the CM make it a "no brainer."
Let’s see how many wildcats based on the Creadmore case design reach the state of being commercially successful cartridges.
The gold standard is the 30-06 case which produced the 25-06, 270 Win, 280 Rem, 338-06, and 35 Whelen, not to mention several other wildcats.
When the creadewhatever case produces 5 other commercial cartridges, then its designers can legitimately boast.
Until then, pipe down.
I wonder if the creed case could even push a .358 rifle bullet out the barrel to a distance of 100 yards, mich less 200 yards. Anybody want to trust a creed cartridge to stop a charging predacious grizzly?
Well there are about a zillion of them already simply because the .308 is the parent case for the Creedmoor.
you mean the 30 TC is the parent case.
Whose parent case is??
Basically all .473 case head cartridges are off of the '06 if one wants to split hairs.
If I recall correctly, the 8x57 was .473" before even the 06.
The first cartridge to use the ".30-06" head/rim diameter was the Patrone 88, the cartridge introduced in the German Gewehr 88. It eventually morphed slightly into the 8x57, and the rim diameter was actually nominally 12mm, since Germany used the metric system. After that the Patrone 88 head-size was used in other Mauser rounds, including the 7.65x53 "Argentine" (1889) and 7x57 (1892), long before the U.S. Army brought out the .30-03 and .30-06. (Our army had a habit of copying other stuff in those days. As I've noted elsewhere, the cartridge we usually call .30-40 Krag is almost a carbon copy of the .303 British, which appeared several years before the .30-40.)
There have been other copies of various commercial rounds on the same head-size. The .30 Thompson/Center was far from a really original idea, since it's basically a slightly longer-necked version of 1920's .300 Savage, including the 30-degree shoulder angle.
Yes, Hornady claims the 6.5 Creedmoor is based on the .30 T/C necked down, but the 6.5 Creedmoor is also almost identical to the wildcat 6.5/.250 Savage RCBS Improved, which had a 28-degree shoulder angle.
And all of those mentioned have the 12mm rim diameter of the 136-year old Gewehr 88...
The first cartridge to use the ".30-06" head/rim diameter was the Patrone 88, the cartridge introduced in the German Gewehr 88. It eventually morphed slightly into the 8x57, and the rim diameter was actually nominally 12mm, since Germany used the metric system. After that the Patrone 88 head-size was used in other Mauser rounds, including the 7.65x53 "Argentine" (1889) and 7x57 (1892), long before the U.S. Army brought out the .30-03 and .30-06. (Our army had a habit of copying other stuff in those days. As I've noted elsewhere, the cartridge we usually call .30-40 Krag is almost a carbon copy of the .303 British, which appeared several years before the .30-40.)
There have been other copies of various commercial rounds on the same head-size. The .30 Thompson/Center was far from a really original idea, since it's basically a slightly longer-necked version of 1920's .300 Savage, including the 30-degree shoulder angle.
Yes, Hornady claims the 6.5 Creedmoor is based on the .30 T/C necked down, but the 6.5 Creedmoor is also almost identical to the wildcat 6.5/.250 Savage RCBS Improved, which had a 28-degree shoulder angle.
And all of those mentioned have the 12mm rim diameter of the 136-year old Gewehr 88...
when i first my 6.5 CM back in '08 or '09, there was no brass to reload for. someone said the 308 Winchester, but it took a couple of steps to do. a 22/250 case necked up to 6.5 is a little short on the OAL, but i think i may as well try it. to my amazement, it worked even tho it was shorter (.2 or .02" i think). i still have the 6.5/250 cases left....somewhere.
i sold the Creedmoor about 6 or 7 years ago, because it got boring. the 6.5 CM was and is a whitetail deer round. i used 120gr Hornady SST/Nosler BT and 140gr Hornady SST/Nosler BT with Superformance powder. the CM would go (for any bullet) 1/2 - 3/4" group at 100 yards (5 shots/bench). when the shooting gods smiled upon me, the CM would do 1/4" group.
the longest shot i took with the 6.5 CM is something like 120+/- yards (i think) on a doe. i've never shot it over 300 yards, but it rang steel.
I always thought it interesting the rapid evolution of cartridge design. The late fifties and sixties was all about large belted cartridges pushing relatively light to medium weight bullets as fast as possible. Now it’s all about efficiency and heavy for caliber bullets with fast twist rates. Yes that happened over sixty years but compare that to the time it takes for the most minuscule change in an animal to show as far as evolution is concerned. I doubt any evolutionary change has happened in game animals has happened since the 25-06 was first conceived that makes it any less effective.
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