Be sure to checkout Phil Shoemaker's article "Details That Matter" in the July issue of Rifle (p. 88), its a great one.


I especially like the photo of the "well used" .458 rifle. If that old gun could talk there would be some grand hunting tales told

Perhaps Mr. Shoemaker could share a few of them with us as well as relate the specs of the rifle.

HBB

was it Ol' Ugly? actually just happened to re-read the Rifle article from a couple years ago on that rifle 2 nights ago.......also reread his Handloader article on his "510" Gibbs

your a hell of a writer Mr. Shoemaker

I hate to call another man's rifle ugly (well except maybe for one of SteelHead's )...but that's a good description of this one

HBB

+1

I'd like to see more articles on fit and handling.

- TJM

It was Ol' Ugly. Phil did an article on the rifle a few years ago.

the title of the article he wrote about the rifle i do believe was Ol' Ugly....will look when im home at lunch

Wasn't that a Heym he was comparing to Ol Ugly?

Wouldn't you just like to see him uglify it? You know, to make it more practical?

Bend back the bolt a bit or weld on a new one. Shorten the stock of course, and then take some of the shiny off. (grins)

- TJM

I never thought of my rifle as ugly - but EVERYONE else did and weren't shy about mentioning it so I decided "if you can't beat them join them" and named it Ole Ugly.
It's true beauty though is evident once you pick it up and put it into action.
It has taught me a lot about rifles and is still a work-in-progress as last winter I filed a thumb slot (like on the military M-98's) in the side of it's Mk X action. I suppose it may be a little easier to load now - but to be truthful I never found it slow during the past twenty four years. You also can see I must have hit it with a can of spruce green rustoleum between the time the first photo was taken and I photographed it next to the Hein. Now that is a pretty rifle. It worked nice too.

Phil - greatly enjoy your work. You are the King of Practicality and functional equipment. Thanks for all the material over the years - and keep it up.

I get a real chuckle from some of your actions. Like taking a file to the Heym to make it carry better or Rustoleum on Ole Ugly.

Priceless.

Might also add that Wolfe has some of the best writers/storytellers in the business. Really enjoy JB, Shoemaker, Scovill, Spomer, Pierce. Each of you guys has your style, tells a good story, and conveys info well. I can't relate alot to Venturino's article but enjoy the history lessons.

Keep up the good work!

thanks for the kudos although not everyone ( as my wife will tell you) appreciates my practical, pragmatic approach to things.
the front square bridge I rounded off was on my Bauska action 505 Gibbs - not the 404 Hein. My son also had a gunsmith do the same thing to his CZ 416 Rigby.

bwinters:

Less expensive than buying a swirly McMillan. I can appreciate the approach very much, though I haven't worked up the nerve to do it to one of my rifles.

Finn Aagard often took a similar approach. Another man for practicalities. I seemed remember at least one rifle where he shortened the barrel with a hacksaw, trued the muzzle with a hand file, modified the stock with Bondo, or some such, to make it fit better and then spray painted the whole thing. Wish I'd kept the article. A Mauser of some sort, IIRC.

- TJM

I enjoyed the article too. I'm reminded of a rifle I saw recently, a vintage Winchester lever gun (1886?). A bored cowboy with cabin fever had spent the winter using a file to turn the barrel into a kind of half octagon.

Paul

The Old Ugly article is in Rifle Magazine from July-August 2003 and called "Beauty and the Beast".

Sorry for the mis-quote..........
I was going from memory this AM.

I found that article and started another thread on it a while back. The article was "Home Remedies," Rifle #167 (Nov.-Dec. 1995).

The rifle was an 8x57 Mauser 98 with "barrel chopped to 20 inches, metal painted with Rust-Oleum, stock treated with Varathane, a duct tape muzzle cover and an inner tube scope cover."

The article also described creative uses of Shoe Goo, duct tape, stove bolts, Bondo and clothespins.

It also has a description of his case lube method, in which he lubed the cases with Vaseline and wiped them off a paper towel dampened with unleaded gasoline (!). That section ends with this comment:

"I never polish my brass. I want my old cases to look old, so that I am not tempted to over-stress them by using any but mild loads."

John:

That's it! (Missed the other thread.) And that sounds even better than I remembered it.

The unleaded gasoline, though. Not for me. I reload in the garage and my bench is quite close to the pilot light in my gas water heater.

- TJM

I just finished reading that article and really enjoyed it. I was told that I drove the bolt wrong when using the "finger socket" approach as opposed to the palm approach. Glad to see that I work a bolt correctly.

Sakoluvr:

I've been holding my breath over that. Two beloved, well-respected gun writers working for the same publisher with two different methods of working a bolt on a dangerous game rifle.

If any of the Africa Forum regulars notice...

- TJM

That article must have been Red Green's inspiration. Or maybe Red was Finn's.

Gdv

Correctly according to Mr. Shoemaker anyway!

From my readings of history I gather the preferred method of operating bolt handles when they were situated at a 90 degree angle was the palming method but the English taught those operating the SMLE to use the ball and socket method with their fingers and a very good operator could place forty rounds on a man sized target in sixty seconds. that is pretty fast when you consider they were using a 10 round magazine so had to reload from a stripper clip three times during those same sixty seconds!

How one is taught and familiarity with ones rifle makes a big difference and I know JB can operate a bolt rifle quite fast using his method but the general consenus among the real bolt gun wizards that I know is that the fastest and most reliable method is the ball and socket method.

Walgreen's Drug stores are now selling Duct Tape bandages (bandaids). They work great!

.

Phil:

Just read your article tonight, your rifle is so ugly that it beautiful.

Beauty is as beauty does... Although I don't own any rifles that look as "well used" <grin> as yours I'm not too big on pretty rifles either.

Almost all of mine have plain jane grey or flat green Kevlar stocks and some of them look like I use them as jack handles but every one of them shoots accurately and functions flawlessly in any weather at any time no excuses!

I fully understand those that consider rifles as a thing of beauty and many are true works of art but to me a rifle is a precision tool that must never, ever, fail to deliver if I do my part and looks just ain't all that important to me.

All that being said though... I think Savage Rifles (excepting the 1899 series) are butt ugly and I won't ever own another so I guess looks matter at least a little bit <wink> <nudge>

$bob$

Mr Shoemaker

If I recall correctly your rifle at one time had a lever on the rear base of the scope mount similiar to the Pilkington type for easy scope removal. I see the rifle in the latest article has what appear to be Weaver mounts. Is this the same rifle and did it used to have mounts similiar to the Redfield type with the lever in place of a screw?

Also, are you satisfied that the Weaver type mounts are as sturdy as one needs mounts to be? I know Finn Aagaard always spoke highly of them.

Many thanks for a great and very informing article.

Phil -

I have a work-a-holic Winchester 94 that I lovingly refer to as "Ugly Stick." It lives up to its name, but it's faithful each and every time it's called upon to work, and I'm not afraid to take it anywhere to do most anything. There's a beauty all its own to such a gun, but only the owner can appreciate it.

Idared, I did have Redfield bases and rings with the Pilkington QD lever on my 458 for a dozen years and was hapy with it but since it has no adjustments it finally became worn enough that it needed to be replaced. I also realized that there was no reason to remove the scope any faster than i could with the standard Weaver cross slot type mounts. I also knew that we had mounted rifle scopes on M-2 Browning 50 cal's for sniping use when I was in Vietnam using the same system and a mount that will stand up to a 50BMG most certainly will hold up to a 458 so that is what I chose. I have never regreted it.

458Win

Your observations on the Weaver mounts are very interesting. I have always thought the same as you but it seems perhaps the Weaver system gets more critisism than nearly any other scope mounting system. I also find it interesting to hear about the Redfield system becoming worn enough that it needed to be replaced. Was this in the dovetail or the screws on the rear base?

Many thanks for your reply.

Actually I do not open the bolt with my palm so much as the LEFT three fingers, palm up. This prevents the problems of hitting scope, safety etc. that Phil mentioned in his piece. I learned the method too long ago from an article by John Wootters to change now. The main point is to move the bolt back and forth in a two-stroke motion rather than the typical 4-movement motion of the average shooter.

I agree, another great piece from Phil Practical.

JB

Just wanted to say:

Another great article! I too have an Make your Momma Cry It's so Freakin UGLY gun. Remington 870, was my backup waterfowl gun now it's my shortbarreled knockaround answer the front door ar 3:30AM Gun. At last count it was 5 different colors. Who knows now. Krylon Camo on the receiver, Gray parkerized barrel, Blaze orange Speedfeed stocks, I should just paint it OD Green and be done with it, But I like the orange cause I can't lose it.

I was taught to shoot bolt rifles by my dad and uncles (all Canadian WWII vets, so trained on the SMLE). I never used any technique to manipulate the bolt other than the thumb-plus-two-fingers method until I bought a surplus Swedish Mauser in the 80's, and was taught to use the palm-strike method by a fellow who happened to be a Wehrmacht combat vet expatriated to Canada after the War.

Most guys I hunted with in high school bought a surplus SMLE as our first centerfire rifle, as they could be obtained for less than $20 even in the late 60's, and surplus ammo was cheapcheapcheap for practicing. The stripper clips were 5-rounders, although the detachable box magazines would hold 10 rounds.

My first SMLE was a No. 6 Mk I ("jungle carbine") that I picked up at a garage sale in 1978 for $100. It was a beat-up old thing, truly an "Old Ugly" in its own right. Sold it a couple years later for the same price so I could buy a shotgun! That's one of many gun deals I've made in this life I wish I could take back!

There is obviously more than one way to get the job done. For experienced shooters the difference only amounts to a fraction of a second.

I have used both but find the trigger finger/thumb/socket slightly faster as I can simply roll my wrist up and back and quickly foreward again and my trigger finger is on the trigger. That way you don't have to also twist your hand over to strike the bolt to eject and then reverse it to close it - and then find the trigger again.

I thought it was a Great article� Keep them coming.

I agree. And I'm always interested in what works, no matter what it looks like and no matter how old or new it is.

- TJM

Phil, I also enjoyed your recent article. You are right, though, that 458 sure is an ugly one ! Keep up the good practical articles. I enjoy 'em.

I ordered the online subscription largely to get this article.

Rifle handling qualities are a neglected subject.

Fireplug

I liked your article too Mr. Shoemaker. I like your pragmatic approach to things. Not that it's worth anything, but the only ugly rifles I have ever seen were the Remington Model 710 and the Mossberg Model 800 series.

It's nice to see those old Weaver mounts and rings on a working rifle. Another of my favorite writers, the late Finn Aagaard used them also. I have never had a Weaver fail me, be it scope or mount/rings.

And finally, I like to read Mr. Barsness' articles too. I value the articles from both you gentlemen very much and read and reread them all the time.

Thanks...Bill.

Ole
Ugly coming back to life.

Do you have a picture of Mr Ugly?

I used to use the JB 3-finger (little finger working in, palm up) method, tho I never really made a thing about speed .. Adrenaline works well enough assuming a bit of muscle memory. .

I buggered up the index, middle, and third finger on my hand about a year ago. I am now a s - l - o - w bolt worker.

But given the said adrenaline incentive, I could likely work it pretty fast, and hang the pain in the third finger.

I try to avoid said situations.

"I fully understand those that consider rifles as a thing of beauty and many are true works of art but to me a rifle is a precision tool that must never, ever, fail to deliver if I do my part and looks just ain't all that important to me."

That would be me, too. I don't need or want a $3,000 rifle setup to do a job a $300 setup will. And most of that is in the scopes on 2 or 3 of my rifles. YMMV.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...6113/for-458win-re-ole-ugly#Post13046113

The new 2021 Gun Digest has a feature on Old Ugly

Really!???

Was the article just a reprint of the original ? Or new writing??

Well I guess I’ll be buying it.

I thought there was a fella in AK, who retired the cannon, and just totes his Smith 9 with Buffalo Bore ammo?

No doubt, I am sure that rifle has stories to tell.

I know this is an old thread, but does anyone have a link to the 2003 and 2007 articles on Ole ugly? If they have to be purchased, I understand, but often some older articles can be found on the net, like many of the great articles from Ross Seyfried. Thank you.

Your PM Box is full... here you go:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/275208600027?hash=item4013b5f9db:g:QDgAAOSwadNiLRP8

Looks like someone snapped it up...

I have a copy of that issue around here somewhere

My July issue of Rifle only has 58 pages. What is the correct reference for the Shoemaker article???

Thanks,
Bill

Oops, just noticed the dates the thread started.

The article in Gun Digest was a completely new article, although I did reference the old ones, as well as add newer information

In the current 2022 issue I have a feature on my full story of the 9mm Brown bear incident

Stunt shooter! 😁

Here's a pic of what I believe is "Ol' Ugly" from an online article Phil did for Rifle Magazine:

Ol' Ugly

It shows up well for me, but I have a subscription. If you guys can't access it, let me know and I'll get it onto the thread some other way.

OMG - that rifle is beyond UGLY. It looks like something dug out of the ground from the civil war era. LMAO
But ... I've got to admit, my ugly guns are the ones that don't shoot straight. All the others are beautiful.

Ugly is as ugly does....bet it could tell some stories.

You know, if Ole Ugly had a son, he'd look like Taj's rifle . . .

Joe Want was another gent who had an “Ole Ugly “ .458 Winchester. Had a brazed on rear peep sight on the back of the receiver.

I believe that Joe lost that rifle and many other treasures in a fire that consumed his home.

Why you is raysuus?

Have a 660 I bought a Brown Precision stock for. 1989.
Filled the bubble holes with Bondo, grey, Built up low spots and a few
faults with Tiger Hair, green. Was running out of time before season
And painted it flat black.

Ugly.

Hunted it until about 1997.
Sanded it to smooth things better, was gonna finish it right.....
Things got in the way.

Now, it was brown, green, grey and flat black.

Really ugly.

Half dozen years ago sanded it, smoothed it up, put a grippy black
paint on it, OD'd the studs and screws.

Looks nicer now.

But lost all character, I miss the old ugly look.

Phil's articles are always very informative, well-written--and often filled with action.

This is a photo Eileen took in 2008, when we visited the "Hairy Shoes" at their place on Becharoff Lake, both to fish and open the ptarmigan season.

With somewhat mixed feelings, Eileen wanted to get some good photos of bears fishing the streams. This one was taken at maybe 25- yards, with Phil standing right behind her, with 'Ol Ugly' in his hands. The bear wasn't charging us, instead running toward salmon it saw under the bank we were on--but Eileen didn't flinch, because she knew Phil had her back....

[img]https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/galleries/17577684/eileen-charging[/img]

Great pic, MD.

MM

Doesn't even look like it's charging. Looks like a cartoon bear doing a Red Skelton "doo-doo-doo" as he's running.

COOL picture!

MD, I can't think of anyone better to have her back. Vietnam seasoned, with the "right stuff" to protect his CLIENTS with a 9mm handgun. A great thread !!!

I was reading an older piece by Phil S where he referenced his jungle time. For some reason the gist stuck with me. Maybe he’ll comment. Seems some operators came out of the foliage after a long time in and headed toward the better part of base. As he put it a “REMF” harassed them about proper protocol and appearance and how they needed to shape up. One of the group gave him a “thousand yard stare” and suggested he withdraw. Wish I could lay hands on that. And best I remember REMF complied.

This is what 2nd Lts DO BEST !!!

Hope Eileen doesn't find out how you titled that pic!

Yep, to anybody familiar with grizzlies/browns it obviously wasn't charging.

But the bear was running directly toward us, and the salmon it was hoping to catch were just below Eileen's feet, a few feet from the bank she sat on. And you never know what a bear might do when it's startled....

Here's the next photo she took, about a second later....

That's a little close!

[quote=oldwoody2]This is what 2nd Lts DO BEST !!![/quote

If I remember correctly the officer who called us to attention was an REMF Captain !

And John and Eileen were a real pleasure to have in camp and acted quite nonchalant about how close bears came. Eileen took a great photo of a very close and quite large old boar on another day of fishing

She also seemed quite the "bear magnet " when we were winding through alder patches with 20 ga shotguns looking for ptarmigan

Hi Phil,

Hope the bear hunting is going well!

It was a lot of fun visiting you all--can't believe it was 14 years ago. But do remember Eileen wasn't quite so nonchalant when she jumped the bear out of the nearby brush when ptarmigan hunting--and also remember your comment, that she set the women's world record for the backward 20-yard dash while carrying a 28-gauge....

great picture ! and any bear close to me i have learned respect , my good friend who was a Marine in Viet Nam and did some bear guide work in Alaska always said he like to see bears but only when the bear was a long ways away . told me the story of one of his clients on a Brown Bear hunt David as a guide always carried a 338 Win .mag. but the client had a new 340 Weatherby mag. . he seen a big bear few hundreds yards away so they stalk the bear with the right wind to the steam bed area my friend David the Marine crawled slower over the bank, and there was the bear 15 feet away ,bear had a huge head ,bear was digging in the bank ,David eased backed down the ditch bank ,told the client/hunter where the bear was , the client/hunter crawled up the bank, next thing that happened hunter had crawled back down and said he didn`t really care to shoot a bear anymore and that David could if he wanted too he would tag the bear . David said no he would not kill the bear ,David told me this that client/hunter`s eyes were huge and was white as a ghost and wanted to get out of there.

Bears up close and personal are always fascinating.
This past couple of weeks while guiding fishermen we had a large male who became comfortable around us. He was on a relatively small creek and We often bumped into him at close range. We would stand looking at each other from 20-30 feet to see who would be first to give.
If I did anything abruptly, like standing up from sitting or stepping forward, he would back up and walk around us and if we stopped and backed away 2 or 3 steps he would walk right past us only a few feet away.