Realizing that there are plenty of big bore choices, what is a sensible choice for the hunter who will most likely only use it on deer, black bear, and wild hogs at reasonable ranges out to 150 yards or so? By sensible I mean something that gives you more round nose/flat meplat big bore "thump" at reasonable ranges (on the critter) without kicking the snot out of the shooter. The choice would have to be what you consider to be a worthwhile boost above say a 30-30, 7x57, or similar deer caliber; something that may have an extra edge in anchoring the critter before they get lost in heavy cover.

Thanks.

I have always been a great fan of the .45-70! But there is nothing wrong with the .35 Remington (medium bore), the .35 Whelen (medium bore) or the .444 Marlin (big bore). I am also enamored with the .375 Winchester (difficult to find) in both the rifle and the TC Contender.

All time favorite will always be the .45-70 for me.

Dan

I favor the 350RM and 35Whelen. Neither are super popular, but, both hit hard w/out excessive recoil and can be had in a lighter more compact rifle. The 350RM can reach full potential w/ a very short barrel which I prefer.

GVA

I don't think that anything above the power of a 30-06 is necessary, but personally, when I want more bullet diameter than .308 and more punch, I go with a 338 Win. Mag., and I've effectively used that cartridge on stuff that's a lot bigger and tougher than any black bear.

AD

Assuming you're a loader......either 45-70 or 405.
In a No 1 of course.

SOS

I'd look at the 35's - Whelen or RM. I like allen's choice of a 338 for more punch but to me a significant recoil difference exists between the 338 and the 35's mentioned above. I don't have the experience that allen does but the 35's will do ~ 90% of what the 338 does with less recoil.

I'm obviously a much bigger woose than allen.........

I wouldn't bet on the "bigger woose" part!

Maybe you're just smarter!

AD

Well I don't like recoil that hurts me and the 300 Mag is that threshold and the 338 WM would be more. So I am a bigger woose than Allen.

Look at how Geo. Forman could take a punch and Floyd Patterson could not.

You could even consider the .44 Magnum. Those flat nose Keith type hard cast bullets kill all out of proportion to their numbers. I don't like the 45-70 that much for just deer and BB but to each his own.

For myself I deal with the .358 Win but I don't use bullets over 200 grs very much.

To anchor the critter you have to shoot the beast in it's central nervous system.

.45-70.

I know the areas you hunt Dogger, and there ain't much a .45-70 can't do in those parts.

The factory 300 gr. JHPs are definitive when they hit, don't kick bad at all, and the power level only goes up from there.

I can't believe there is no mention of the .358 Win. The .350 Rem mag and .35 Whelen also get my vote. Pick any one of those three, and you have all your bases covered. Handloads will tailor your needs even more.

+1!!!!!!



Caliber 45/70 Gov't.
Capacity 4-shot tubular magazine
Action Lever action; side ejection; stainless steel receiver, barrel, lever, trigger guard plate, magazine tube and loading gate. Hammer block safety.
Stock American black walnut straight-grip stock; cut checkering; ventilated recoil pad; tough Mar-Shield� finish; swivel studs.
Barrel 18.5" with deep-cut Ballard-type rifling (6 grooves).
Twist Rate 1:20" r.h.
Sights Adjustable semi-buckhorn folding rear, ramp front sight with brass bead and Wide-Scan� hood. Solid top receiver tapped for scope mount; offset hammer spur (right or left hand) for scope use.
Overall Length 37"
Weight 7 lbs.



Shaun

Dogger in a lever gun I'd go Guide 45/70. In a turn bolt AD has it spot on 338 4 me.

Dober

The 35 Whelen in a Remington 7600. I have taken well over 125 boar/hogs & 6 black bear. It will also obviously work on the largest of deer at reasonable ranges. I have a reworked trigger & a 6X42 scope. I handload 225 & 250 G. premium bullets.

The 45-70 has merit. I overlooked it because to me it's a short range blackbear gun with few peers when loaded with 400 grain boolits. Have shot 2 bruins with mine; guys I hunt with have shot ~ 40-50 over the past 20 years. All 5 of us shoot 1895 Marlins in 45-70 with 400 gr Speers. Absolutely gets there attention.

300 grainers for deer might just be the biggest slap down mentioned thus far. Recoil from the 300's ain't bad - nothing like our handloaded 400's...............

.358 Winchester
.444 Marlin

A picture is worth a thousand words.

AGW

.35 Whelen, in a 760 pump if you like speed.

What I use here in the hills and hollows and thick swamps
in Alabama.
Stainless BLR 270 WSM
Custom Winchester 1895 405 WCF with NECG Express sights

'nother vote for 45/70. You can load it hot as heck to reach out to 200 yds without much thinkin' or load it lighter and learn how to shoot the arc. Fantastic round!

Amen....I can't believe how fast my Whelen puts deer down.

If your range is <150 yards, the 45-70 is superb.

If you need more range, then the 35 Whelen or 338 Win.

MM

358 Win
45-70
35 Whelen

My choice would be something in .35 caliber with a bit more steam than the .35 Remington. That leaves the .356 Win., (good luck finding one or ammo) .358 Win. (Somewhat of a same problem.) .35 Whelen/.350 Rem. mag. (same thing in different pacakages for all practical purposes and the .358 Norma Magnum. (Too much of a good thing for the game in question.
So my first choice would be the .358 Win. and choice #2 the .35 Whelen. I'd just as soon forget about the others. The way some ammo companies arbitrarily drop ammo or loads because the bean counters don't like sales figures make me want to look at these cartridges in a more practical manner. The .358 Win can in a pinch be made from .308 Win. brass just by running the .308 bras through the .358 sizing die. The same goes for converting 30-06 brass into .35 Whelen. The .350 Rem. Mag. brass can be made from other magnum brass but it's a lot more work. I belive that brass for the .358 Norma can be made by just running .338 Win. mag. brass through a .358 Norma sizing die, but I am not totally sure on that point.
Now unless the bear and hogs are a lot bigger in you neck of the woods, I'd go with the .358. Make sure the rifle has a 1 in 12" twist barrel. I've heard that the new Ruger in .358 Win. has that twist as does the Browning BLR.
If you go with the Whelen, you can always load down to .358 specs for less recoil and still have a rifle for bigger game with full power loads, should you so choose.
Me? I have five rifles in .358 Win. and three in the .35 Whelen and I hunt out here with them in the wide open spaces of the west. Well, at least I do when I can draw one of the tags that this state is so stingy with.
FWIW, the .358 with a stiff load using the 200 gr. Hornady spire point will shoot a hell of a lot farther than most "egg-spurts" in the gun rags wiill give it credit for doing. It ain't just a brush gun.
Paul B.

Don't forget the 38-55 handloaded will do the job just fine.

I guess I'd better don my flack jacket before typing this so here goes.

I've found that big bores don't anchor whitetail unless you get a CNS hit. I've seen a lot of frustrated guys that, when they finally find their deer, find that their big bore drilled them right where it should have mattered only to see them run off into the nearest thicket or swamp making recovery no less than an ordeal.

If you want to anchor them then something like a 270 is ideal. Whitetail respond quickly to shock and I mean the kind that you can deliver with a 270

My personal favorite is a Remington Titanium in 300SAUM with a 165gr Partition.

It'll slam through them from ANY angle and they'll often hit and skid if they're running or drop literally in their tracks if they're standing still.

The Partition won't ruin hardly any meat and you can eat right up to the hole.

That same load should easily take a blackie or a big hog with it too.

Long live the Partition!!!

OH.. And I like the Titanium magnum because it's very light and yet accurate and the McMillan stock somehow works so much magic that it doesn't kick any worse than a regular old lightweight 308!

Long live the Titanium!!!

This year I'll be trying out a 7mmSAUM Titanium and I'm betting it gives me similar results but the jury is still out.

$bob$

LD,

Sure glad you put on your flak jacket 'cause here it comes.....

While I truly LOVE the 270, for close range work, I've never seen anything put a deer down like a 400 grain slug from a 45-70, even my other beloved, the 338.

As for the Titanium, unless you've restocked it, the factory stock is made by Bell & Carlson, not McMillan.

I do however, love the Partition, too. Can't wait to try the new E-tip when they get 'em out.

MM

As an apparently wise man mentioned above, the .38-55 fits the bill almost perfectly, more so it's stouter reincarnation as the .375 Win.

scott

Ken Howell hit the nail on the head.
The 358 Winchester.

Power, range, and small guns.

I have three .358 caliber rifles and a 357 Maximum T/C Pistol.

I think Ken Howell nailed this sucker to the wall.

.358 Winchester
.444 Marlin

338 Win mag for deer and black bear under 150yrds? must be bullet proof where you guys live. 45-70, 358 Win and if you want a 338, here is where the much malign 338 Fed would fit perfectly, hits hard, small package, factory loadings and you don't have to download.

For up to 150yrds I like a 12ga slug gun. Mines a semi-auto and will keep 3 slugs within 2" at 50yds. The ballistics of some of the new slugs look like they would make hitting at 150-200yds quite doable with a bit of practice. Plus the make a BIG hole.

If you want to be both sensible and have an edge. I would suggest that the new 338 Federal would be ideal. Bigger bore without kicking the snot out of you. It would be nice in a Model 7 Remington for a stalking rifle I think or handy in a stand too!
I shoot a 35 Whelen 700 Classic and it is a good compromise. It is heavy enough that you don't get beat up at the bench like a magnum would do to you, but yet it isn't to heavy to carry on a deer drive. It would be nice to have a Sendero for stand hunting and a Model 7 for stalking or drives.
Even though everybody knows that bullet placement matters the most, you can't always depend on it because trees get in the way and animals have been known to jump or move at the critical moment because of squirrels, birds, etc. In light of Murphy's Law
I like to have an edge myself. If a 30-06 is good then a 35 Whelen is that much better because of the increase in frontal area and the heavier bullets. If you buy factory ammo then there isn't much to choose from, but if you handload you won't live long enough to try out all the possible choices in components.
Based on hunting deer in heavy cover for the last quarter of a century, these are my conclusions. If you are the type who has lots of patience and lots of opportunity to wait for a perfect shot then of course you can get by with a 243.
whelennut

Having never hunted bear� 450 Marlin, or .338WM.
Gotta love either one.

My experience with the 45-70 is that it knocks things over, so a good choice. I would have to agree with the above choices for shots under 150 yards, 338 Fed, 338-06, 358 Win, 35 whelen, 350 RM, 35 remington (or any of the larger bore lever calibers). Oddly enough for the choices of game, I would not think it necessary to go big bore, as I have seen the .243 Win drop deer like a rock in those ranges. (not that I am advocating that)

I have a 35 rem, 338-06, 45-70 so I can speak for those.

well...
i've killed a ton of deer with 12 ga slugs over the years, and it does an ok job... drops them quicker on average if you bust up their chassis...
i've used a .44 carbine a few times and it does a good job too.. but...

if'n i want to kill a deer like lightning hit it, i'd use an 85 bthp sierra from my .243

I have killed bear and wild hogs with the .45-70, and a ton of deer with a 12 ga. slug gun[Indiana doesn't have a rifle season, until this fall]. I would get the .45-70 guide gun. If you handload, load up some 300 gr. nosler partitions to about 2000 fps. Sight in for about 2" high at 100 yds. Drop at 200 will be in the 6-7" range. The ole 45-70 will absolutely trun deer, hog, and blackbears inside out. Mine has a 1-4x leupold on board, and is very accurate. Its easy to carry and quick to point. I'm taking mine to hunt plains game in the limpopo area of RSA in July 2008.

Mad Dog

The question you asked stated big bore, I would go .375 H&H for a big bore. If you are just trying to define a great caliber for both deer and black bear, I would go 338 WM

LD

I have experienced the phenomenon you descibed. Big bore pass through with little expansion and a long tracking job on a whitetail. The culprit was a 225 partition from a 2600fps load in a 35 Whelen.

This problem is easily corrected with a bullet of lighter construction. Nosler told me the 35 caliber partitions are built tough for big tough critters like big bears. Two bullets that work great on deer,hogs and simillar game are the 200 grain hornady spire point and the 200 grain pointed core lokt. Both are awesome and will expand well, penetrate great, and produce big exit wounds at whelen velocity. Can't see why they wouldn't be great in 358 winchester too.

Britt

Whoa, that's news to me. When and where will rifles be allowed? I'd like to try that, 'course most of the places I hunt there a rifle is not much of an advantags. But I did say most...

If you ain't hunted deer in the brush with a 45-70 and moderate loads, you just ain't lived! My favorite is the Marlin 1895G guide gun. Mine currently has a Williams WGRS aperture rear sight and the factory front sight, though I have killed deer with a scope onboard. I filed the brass front sight at an upward angle to get rid of the ridiculous black finish on it and reflect light from above back to my eye so I can see it when it gets late. I can shoot almost as well with that sight combination as with a scope, and there's no unsightly scope to ruin the natural feel and traditional lines of the rifle.

I keep the loads moderate: 300 grain bullets with 45 grains of H4198, or 40 grains with 400 grain bullets. The first GG I owned would print either load in one ragged hole at 100 yards as long as I cared to pulled the trigger. Hopping up a 45-70 to any degree attainable will never make it shoot flat, so I accept the range limitation and keep the loads fun. None of the dead deer seemed to care.
_

pointer, Indiana just past a PCR season[pistol cartridge rifle]. Rules say min. .35 cal/max case length 1.625". Will include .357,.41,.44 mag, .45LC, .454 casull, etc. My case length for the .45-70 is about 1/2" too long to qualify. Go figure, I can use the 45-70 in an encore/contender pistol with 12-15" barrel, but can't hunt with it in my 18 1/2" barrel guide gun.

Mad Dog

My experience is limited to a dozen or so deer cartridges but I have never seen anything kill faster than a 270 with a 130 gr bullet!

back to the question at hand, I built up a nice 350 rem mag on a win 70 action with a 24" shilen stainless barrel. it was a dandy! I eventually sold it as I never used it (the 25-06) worked too well. a fellow in oregon bought it to hunt elk and that makes more sense. when discussing the virtues of the 350 rem mag with Mule Deer, he favored the 358 win, very close in performance to the 350 rem with less fuss.

maddog- Just found the reference. Looks like I might have an excuse for a levergun after all...

Once again, I find no reason to diagree with Phil . . .

BMT

358 Win, 35 Rem, 444 Marlin, and...drum roll please....348 Winchester. Dogger wants to limit recoil so I'm skipping the 405. 45/70 always works, but need to avoid the heavy loads to meet the low recoil requirement.

Aside from the 38-55 I suggested earlier, another to consider would be the 45-90 in the timeless 1886 Winchester lever action rifle.

Lots of pull for the 35 cal, but that is not a big bore. Big bore really starts from 40 or 45 cal and goes up from there. True big bores start at 50 and then up.

But the most common of today's big bores would be 45-70, 44 mag, 454 casull, 444 marlin, 458 winchester.

Most sensible is the one that is the most common and well know for performance. Of these, the 45-70 is the most common and the most suited to our N. american needs.

I cannot imagine a better deer and bear rifle for shots out to 200 yards. It simply is an awesome old platform.

Maybe I am a natural skeptic, but I don't believe a bigger slow moving bullet kills deer and black bear consistently quicker than a fast moving small bullet from a 7 mag. or 300 mag.

A bolt action rifle chambered in 358 Win. 20" barrel with express sights. Talley Lever QR rings. I could easily favor said barreled action in a full-length mannlicher stock or a mcmillan edge compact stock.

Experience here bears that out completely. I have SEVERAL "big bore" friends and they're constantly blood trailing their game even when hit very well.

What I shoot with my 300SAUM rifles is inevitably found dead in their tracks and since I use Nosler Partitions I can eat right up to the hole.

Big bores poke big holes but usually don't kill very fast. Shock is usually necessary for a fast kill unless it's a direct CNS hit and if you want shock with a big bore you're talking enough velocity with that heavy bullet that recoil is a MONSTER!!!

$bob$

Thanks for making a case for big-bores. Your big-bore buddies follow blood trails because they can. Big holes cause big blood trails - especially big exit holes. Just about any 400 grain bullet with a blunt nose fired from a 45-70 at around 1700 fps is a dead-reliable game killer. If I know the range I will encounter on the day's hunt will not exceed about 150 yards, and if I don't have another new rifle or caliber with which to experiment, then the 45-70 goes along. It's absolutely reliable.

_

Blood trailing is something I don't have to or want to do... That's the difference.

Here in the piney woods there's always a nearby briar patch or swamp that a wounded game animal can crawl into. Blood trailing them in those conditions can be a very unpleasant task.

If you like poking big holes and then blood trailing animals then I'm glad you're happy. I prefer bang/flop.

$bob$

The problem with most medium to big bore cartridges is their bullets are built very stout, so they do not open up that big on small animals like deer.

With that said i have to agree with the .358win, 444marlin, or 45-70 crowd. Just use the right bullet and the animal will be down very quickly, WITH a good blood trail.

The problem with fast moving bullets/ hydro-static shock crowd is that you cannot depend on this happening every time, so then what happens when your animal moves off, and has no blood trail?

Use a rem core-lokt 200gr round nose in the .358 win, a 250gr Nosler partition in the 444 and a 300gr partition in the 45-70 and you will have a dependable deer/ black bear slayer.

Blood trailing, contrary to some people's opinion, is not a bad thing, its actually an art that most will inevitably need for good woodsmanship. When ever i hear someone complain about blood trailing it tells me one thing, they sure as hell aint no bow hunter

All the above advice is good and cartridge choice is generally a matter of preference with the larger bores (30 - 45 caliber). I prefer the 358 Winchester - it has the power and heft to get the job done fast.

These are the two that screamed at me when I read the requirements.

I'd pick something in the 35 caliber or 44 cal.

35 Remington, 35 Whelen
44 Magnum, 444, etc...

You can do what 2ndwind does.

Shoots a 35 whelen with some super duper premium punch bullets and shoot a high shoulder shot.

He usually complains if the deer fall more than a foot from where they were standing.

I often use my 35-284 which is about the same as a 35 Whelen and my Ruger #1 in 45-70. I simply make sure I break one or both shoulders and no deer, elk or bear is going anywhere. I have never seen an animal make more than a step or two before collapsing. I have used Sierra 225 gr Game Masters in my 35 and have driven slugs completly through Elk from so seriously bad angles. Of course the ex sourts say the Sierra is NO GOOD for hunting and pennetration. I don't know, I have never recovered a spent 225 Sierra from any game shot and it will shoot repeatedly into 1 1/4" or so at 200 yards.

Thanks for the varied responses and recommendations. Alas, I am no closer to a decision on an "over 30". To save some $ on the front end, perhaps I should use some heavy for caliber bullets in the rifles I have... perhaps I should try some 175s in my 7x57, and concentrate on shoulder shots? I have never tried a shoulder shot before. I have some Speer 175 grain Grand Slams on hand, I think they are of recent manufacture, perhaps 3 years old at the most.

I was looking back over my hunting notes from my forays on the Massanutten mountain. Most of my encounters with deer have been from still hunting. I am a cautious shooter, and never shoot at running deer. On three occasions, I spooked deer who were ready to cross the logging trail I was edging along. They saw me first, at ranges within 30 yards. On all those occasions they made their escape without presenting to me a shot I was willing to take. On three occasions I came up on groups of two or three does feeding in small mountain laurel pockets. On one of those occasions, I totally spazzed out trying to get the crossbolt safety disengaged on my 30-30 and by the time I did the deer were enroute to the next county. On two occasions, I busted deer up out of brushy thickets, and did not take the shot because they were small does. All of these engagement ranges would have been well within 30 yards. When hunting from ground blinds, the only one with any good fortune has been my son, he has had them walk right up on top of him (I can at least take credit for putting him in his spot). When I see deer from ground blinds, they tend to be sightings right at the end of shooting light, with just the flicker of a tail or an ear in the woods alerting me to the presence of the deer. These ranges have all been within 75 to 100 yards. I think the lessons here are that I am rushing too much when still hunting, I don't have the rifle in a high state of readiness when I come up on the deer, I am not using my binos to good effect, and perhaps I just suck at picking locations for ground blinds. A magnum rifle would be out of place in any of these situations I think. Something fast handling, carried safely but quick into action, with plenty of thump, would be right at home.

Looking back over my last post, it seems to scream out for a pump action centerfire rifle carried offsafe with an empty chamber...

.444 Marlin,,if you handload. Factory loadings for the .444 are pathetic. Seat a 270 gr Speer GDSP over a healthy dose ( mine likes 54 gr) of RE-15 and Bambi and da bears are in serious trouble. I have used it sucessfully for many a critter.

Once you really get into it you find that, within a range, the caliber or cartridge does not matter that much in performance as long as the optimum bullet is used for the game and range.

The first thing that I do is to pick out the rifle. Then select a cartridge that fits in it and make it work to its best.

Long ago I came across a 358 Win in a 99. That worked out very well. Other combo's would too.

I have both 358's and 375 HH's. The 375's are kind of heavy for just the hunting you describe. Its the rifle that matters more to me.

If the range is resonable and it often is, especially for bears , I'll pick the .358 Win.

The .350RemMag has worked very well for me on deer, bear, caribou, water buffalo, red deer, elk, and pigs.

9.3x62 and 286-grain Nosler Partition.

Whoever criticized bigger bore cartridges for not killing quickly, thus forcing their users to follow that blood trail--well, you're right. I've followed every blood trail made with this combo, all the way out to 24 yards.

JB

375 Hawk-Scovill?

Love that one too. I have one in a Sako. Also have a 9.3X74 Ruger #1 on order. Not much for recoil either.

This one is easy- pick up a 35rem 7600 pump with 18" tube, have it re-chambered to .358Win. And only then will you have the perfect whitetail/black bear slayer. Load it will 180grn Barnes X bullets, and get 2650 out of it. Makes 2 big holes, every time, quick kills with awesome blood trails, little meat damage.

Of course my opinion may be biased, as this would be my weapon...

Kevin

...I've got a Remington pump model 141 in .35 Rem that is sweet handling,fast and accurate. With 200 grain soft points it doesn't beg for more power on deer or bear.I do like the Winchester 358 for a bit more punch on larger game if needed (the newer 338 Federal would do too).These are not big bores of course,but bigger isn't required on thin skinned game.

You wanted "big bore", "flat meplat", plus "thump" at 150 yards and under. That has 45-70 wrote all over it.

I load my No.1 in 458 Lott down to 45-70+P levels for use in thick stuff and it will definantly put some "thump" on deer.

Unless you need the extra penetration, make sure to use the lighter constructed bullets designed to expand at 45-70 velocities.

As for recoil, heavier bullets and higher pressure can make it thump on both ends, but nothing unmanageable.

Most of my deer hunting has been in Michigan's Upper Penisular. I have used calibers from 257 Ackley Imp, 30-06, 7mm mag, 44 mag handgun, 357 handgun, 270 Win, 45-70, 300 WM, 338 mag and finally my beloved 35 Whelen. Ranges from open fields 400 yards to thick woods, 30 yards. All have killed deer without exception. I like owning,reloading and shooting guns that's why I try to use the different guns I own when I hunt. I must say the quickest kills on whitetails have been with my 35 Whelen, especially for thick woods, and not too long of ranges. It is a Rem 700 BDL, glass bedded in a McMillian Stock and has a 1.5x4.5 Swarovski Nova on it. I shot deer in the Whelen, about 12 in all, using the 225 Sierra, 225 Nosler, and the 250 Speer. All 1 shot, drop on the spot, no trailing. I shot one black bear with it at 40 yards using the 225 Trophy Bonded. I shot thru the front shoulder, flipped him over and he was dead right there. He weighed 377 pounds on the scale dressed out. Had a 19 inch skull, and I got a 7 foot rug out of him. I think the 35 Whelen from 10 yards to 300 yards will do everything you would want in a deer / bear gun. Handy, light with the fiberglass stock, and not a hard kicker. I quite using the 225 Sierras because I had two lose their jackets on two deer. Of course, the deer still dropped on the spot. I recently obtained a 9.3x63 mauser on a mark X action, McMillan Stock, and Lilja barrel which I hope to bag a deer in the "Yooper" with this year. I think the 286 Nosler will do just fine in it.

.308 Winchester

358 Winchester - BLR is good.

" what is a sensible choice for the hunter who will most likely only use it on deer, black bear, and wild hogs at reasonable ranges out to 150 yards or so? By sensible I mean something that gives you more round nose/flat meplat big bore "thump" at reasonable ranges (on the critter) without kicking the snot out of the shooter"

sounds like your discribing a 358 win loaded with 250 grain speer bullets over 44 grains of IMR-4064 in my BLR to me!

theres been WELL over a dozen ELK and more than that many mule deer that could attest to that from our ELK camp members experiance, but then theres 3 358 win BLRs in our camp most years