In a report in a gun magazine, I read last night, that the new Alaska Model of the Ruger Hawkeye shot groups that averaged 1.8 inch groups with the 270 grain bullets and THREE INCHES with the 300 grain bullets - using their OWN AMMUNITION!!!

Am I alone, in thinking - this is just awful?

Why, in a world where cheap rifles such as Tikka's, Weatherby Vanguards, Savages, Brownings, Mossbergs, Howas etc. are tested, and show they are capable of regularly breaking the MOA standard - should this be considered "Acceptable"?

Having paid almost $1400 for a Remington Ti that only shot 2 1/2 groups from the factory - and being told by Remington they wouldn't do anything about it - I've got a real problem with companies releasing modern bolt action rifles that are that poorly constructed! You feel totally "ripped off"!

Why are some companies still producing such crap?

Personally, I think EVERY rifle should have a return policy - that is - if they don't already guarantee the accuracy of what they sell. If, say, after a week or so, you can't get a rifle to shoot like most bargain priced Savages or Tikkas do - you should be able to return it for a full refund.

If we, as consumers, insisted on it - I think we'd get it.

Felt the same way about the Kimber Montana that I sold.Rick.

The only rifle that had unscceptable accuracy (to me) was a Remington 7600. In the last 20 yrs. or so I have had 20 or so rifles and with the exception of this 7600 all have been excellent shooters.

Now I have several new rifles that haven't been given the test...........we will see!!!

Brian: I've been following posts regarding the Hawkeye both in wood & synthetic and that seems to be the average or maybe a bit less, but to me that is unacceptable. jorge

Way too many unknown variables in a report like that to draw any conclusions whatsoever.

1 -- Shooter skill/recoil tolerance,

2 -- Scope quality/focus/parallax,

3 -- Mounts/tightness/alignment,

4 -- Stock bedding/screw tension,

5 -- Range conditions,

6 -- Ammo/rifle compatability,

7 -- Benchrest quality...

And probably a bunch more that don't occur to me at the moment.

Rare for any rifle to come from the factory all sweetened up...always some work to do.

I wouldn't, personally, get too exercised until I had experienced poor accuracy after dealing with all the variables to my satisfaction.

DN

The Ruger Hawkeye I bought for my son, a 7mm-08 All-Weather, will shoot 2" or better groups at 200 yards with handloaded 120 gr. Ballistic Tips. That's good enough for me from a factory rifle.

Am I alone in wondering why people so eagerly accept anectdotal information as fact?

Darrel,

The same author has regularly tested much cheaper rifles in the past that broke 1 MOA.

I'd assume he knows what he's doing.

I don't buy those excuses.

If you mean you want the author and magazine - I can provide that...

It is in this month's issue - and it WAS published.

I don't know about the Alaskan but, I just got a new Hawkeye all weather in 280. It gave me a couple of gropus in the 1.5" range with plain old Rem Core-Lokts. I expect good things from handloads and Accubonds when I get to it.
I also am getting good accuracy from a Ruger 1AH in 25-06. As far as American manufacturers go I think Ruger's quality has improved while Remington's has gone downhill. Had two new Rems l this year that are already gone and will not buy another from recent, (2003 or newer), manufacture.
JMHO.

Is the shooter good enough to shoot small groups with a rifle in this recoil class? Not all folks can.

I shot my .375 Ruger Hawkeye African from the bench with the Hornady factory 270 gr and 300 gr loads, and IIRC I didn't shoot a group over 1.5". These are 3-shot groups, and I had the scope set at 6X. I have not worked up any loads yet, this is very limited data, and with only a single rifle. I would not get too exercised with this data without context.

The makers with accuracy guarantees also condition it on bore size: the over-30 stuff is not quoted the small numbers of the small bores.

By the way, Ruger does not make ammunition.

jim

Oh, therefore it MUST be true and it MUST be accepted as fact and it MUST be representative of every other Ruger Hawkeye rifle. Great logic, dude. Should carry you quite aways in this life.

FWIW:

I consider a 375 that will get 1.5 inch groups just fine. 1.8 with factory fodder is OK by me. Handloads can shave half an inch pretty easily.

Exactly just how small a cape buffalo/griz/elephant am you'all gonna shoot?

BMT

My 375 Ruger Alaskan shoots the factory Hornady 270-grain ammo at just a hair over an inch, but the 300 grainers ain't something I'd like to talk about. Though, the factory ammo is going out the door since I have 270-grain Swift A-Frames and Barnes TSX bullets to load up tomorrow.

Those aren't excuses -- those are reasons I don't pay a hell of a lot of attention to one test by one guy with two boxes of factory ammo. I don't know who screwed the action into the stock; I don't know who bolted the scope on; I don't know the range conditions the day the groups were shot. The fact the author could apparently shoot a Mossberg .243 or some such into less than an inch once and couldn't repeat the feat with a .375 don't impress me all that much.

But hey, if you want to use that as an excuse not to buy a rifle, it don't matter to me.

Be happy...we're living in the Golden Age .

DN

I would be as inclined ro blame the scope as the rifle

An analysis of one rifle with two types of ammo, the conclusions made in that article border on statistical irrelevance.

I've had off the shelf Rem 700s shoot sub MOA with factory fodder and I've had off the shelf Rem 700s shoot 3 inch groups with factory fodder. My point is, you can't judge a whole lineup by one rifle with one or even two types of ammo. There are way to many variables.

+1 on muledeer, Royce, 300WinMag & BMT.

And to add to BMT's query: Just how far am y'all gonna be shootin' yo .375???

2" @ 100yds is still Minute-of-Griz @ 400yds!.. Or elk, or moose, or rhino, or buff, or elephant.

Ruger is well known for producing rifles that are hit and miss in the accuracy dept. This is one reason why this accuracy report is so believable. If this report came out about a CZ, Tikka, Browning etc. then the authors abilities and equip would sure be questioned. Because it is a Ruger it is just more of the same from them.
I know there are a lot of Ruger owners that have some real tack drivers and swear by them. I also know that there are just as many Ruger owners that swear at them instead of by them.
Rugged, Reliable, Ruger, but not accurate.

I can honestly say, that of all the rifles I have owned, I have never had one that I couldn't make shoot well, with a good hand load, plus some rifle tuning. Three of my most recent rifles that are shooting very well are Ruger 77's, not Hawkeye's though. By very well, I mean 1/2 MOA for three shots at 100 yards.

Don

How many accuracy arguments have been started by Ruger 77's over the years? Too many to count.

I haven't owned or shot a Hawkeye yet. A friend and hunting partner just bought a new one, .270 not .375 Ruger and obviously not the Alaskan. He doesn't shoot much. 3 trips to the range in a year is good for him (and one of them will be right before hunting season ). He is a remarkably good shot, considering, and despite all that.

That said, he took his new rifle to the range last week with another of our hunting partners to dial it in and see what it would do. After getting it in right at 50, he moved over to 100. His first shot center holed the bull, second was almost touching, third was touching the second. I haven't measured the group, but I saw it and I'm guessing it's under MOA slightly.

Maybe he got lucky, sure. Maybe not. Yes, it's only one group. Point is, he now thinks Ruger makes one he!! of an accurate rifle. The fact that he doesn't shoot much may disqualify him in some eyes, true, but guys that don't shoot much make up the bulk of the hunting population, much as it may pain some of us. Put him on here and what do you think he'll say in this thread?

I don't think the Ruger accuracy argument is going to go away, neither will the Remington Model 7/700/7600 one, or the M70 one, or the Kimber one, or the . . .

It's not right to extrapolate from one rifle to an entire model of rifle in every other caliber, especially when the experience is with some oddball, hard-kicking specialty rifle.

A lightweight carbine firing a 270-grain bullet at 2600+ fps is going to be a challenge for a human to shoot small groups, whatever its locked down inherent accuracy may be.

All my .375 H&Hs have been really accurate, but they all had 23 to 25 inch barrels, and weighed at least 9 lbs with iron sights.

I sure would'nt let that report , of an 8lb rifle delivering nearly 5000 ft lbs energy at the muzzle grouping 2 to 3 MOA with one brand of factory ammo , scare me off from puchasing that model rifle .

I've seen alot of such testfires published in the American Rifleman over the years , and MANY of the groups run around 3 moa , yes with such accuracy known guns as M-700 s and Savage 110 s .

I've also owned quite a few Ruger rifles over the years and all shot acceptably , and many superbly .

I guess my MAIN POINT went unnoticed. I did't write that post just to knock Ruger (which is why I mentioned my Remington) - my main point is that many "cheap" rifles are capable of great accuracy out of the box, and I'm wondering - why they all can't achieve this?

In addition, I don't think buying rifles should be a crap shoot.

You should know how well it will shoot - ALL makes should either carry a guarantee, or a set of shot targets with load info showing what that rifle can do - OR a policy that will let you return rifles that don't measure up to what most people expect out of a modern firearm.

Rather than the present "Take a chance - and if it can't shoot - sell it off to some other sucker" mentality that seems to be the expected norm, with some companies now.

My Remington Ti is my most expensive rifle. It had, without a doubt, the worst accuracy (out of the box) of any rifle I've ever bought. Combine that with Remington's "You pays your money and you take your chances." attitude when I complained about it was enough - and is enough - to make me vow I'll never buy another, unless I know it can shoot first. This attitude, by some companies, is, to me, unforgivable.

I'll agree with Brian's original post. This particular rifle didn't shoot well enough for me to want it, for whatever reason. If someone wants to ignore this report and buy that model of rifle, go for it. I'd want to find out more about this rifle's accuracy before plunking down my money.

My son had a Rem 700 Mt. rifle that started spaying groups wider and wider. At about 4 inch groups I phoned Remington and the customer service gal told me that if the rifle shot six inch groups or under it met factory specs well enough not to replace the rifle under warranty. When the rifle spread out to 12 inch groups they replaced the synthetic stock, which by then we had figured out was the problem. Remington did not impress me however with being satisfied with a 6 inch group.

IMO, buying a new Remington (and other brands) has become like buying a project. Why buy something that needs after market parts and tweaking to get it to shoot like my son's Tikkas do right out of the box?

Brian,

I agree with you that buying a factory rifle should not be such a crap shoot. The thing is that six new factory rifles that I bought in the last three years including Browning A bolts,Remington M700s,and a Winchester M70 featherweight in 300wsm all shot three factory rounds in less than an inch.

Let me tell you my secret,I pray about it and ask the Good Lord to help me pick a good shooter. The priniciple is found in the New Testament where James in his brief epistle tells people to pray for wisdom in the choices they make. It seems to work in other area of life besides rifles too.


Good luck in picking your next gun,

Britt

Astounding! I like it. It worked in picking a wife. Hadn't applied it to rifles. Merry Christmas!

Couple comments

All good things take a little work and time

Acceptable hunting accuracy is not the same as Bench Rest MOA paper punching.

I think we are getting our hopes too high on what is "good" for accuracy.

For the gun you mentioned, the accuracy is not too bad out of the box. Shoot it, play with it, have some fun, tweak it, and go hunting. Great gun that will outlive us all.

Would that be the beltless 375 ruger. The barrel should be 26 inchs and it should weigh a pound more then the accuracy would come back.

I understand your main point... you are essentially saying that in your opinion, all rifles should be sold with an accuracy guarantee.

This concept does have some merit, but unfortunately, that is not currently the way things are...or have ever been. This could be done, but it is a cost issue...manufacturers only make the rifles as good as they need to be to sell to the marketplace...so that's all you're gonna get.

Some manufacturers do currently offer this option, but most manufacturers don't. If a consumer wants a rifle with an accuracy guarantee, he will have to buy a rifle from a manufacturer that currently offers one. As they are still under the UCC, if there is really something wrong with a rifle, most manufacturers will fix it if their feet are held to the fire.

Also, most of the large manufacturers DO have custom shops...and anyone can order their rifle through that division, but that small number of end-users that really need match accuracy can have a custom rig built much more cheaply on their own dime. If a big manufacturer made some of the excellent rifles we see here on this board they would likely cost 5x more than what the smaller custom smiths charged them.

At least, at this point the consumer still has that choice to make...and he should exercise it before 2009 rolls around.

TC

My latest rifle, a M700 30-06 is just about as "good" as that M77 alaskan. Three different powders with the 180 partition have left me wondering what groups smaller than 3" look like. It has a ring about 1/4" back from the muzzle where the pilot on their crowning tool scored the rifling, and a large gouge in a land about an inch further back from that. Since it beats 6" though, from what was said above, it doesn't look like Big Green would touch it.

My Ruger African shot 3 inch groups with factory and half-inch groups with handloads. My Alaskan shoots 1.5 inch groups at 200 yards with handloads.

Yup , and I would be mighty surprised if the rifle in the article did not do the same , maybe with some minor tuning.........a few quick groups with one or two types of factory ammo is just not a fair test of accuracy potential , IMO....

On the guarantee issue, it used to be that Scheel's sporting goods stores would have a one month guarantee on their rifles, where you could exchange it in that time if unhappy with the gun or the way it shot. I never had to test it and don't know if they still offer it, but that is one of the things that has kept me doing business with them. It would be nice if the makers stood behind their products in a similar way.

ANY time you "disrespect" someone's rifle they get defensive and swear up and down you're nuts and that there is absolutely nothing wrong with their rifle or any rifle like it...

All that being said it seems to me that I've read a LOT of complaints from Ruger MK2 rifle owners in the last few years about poor accuracy and my experiences have borne it out. I think Ruger needs to get more serious about accuracy in their rifles.

As far as the Remington issue with the "non-magnum" Titanium rifles. Well... It was a bit shameful that Remington didn't address the problem better but at least they DID discontinue the thin whippy barreled Ti rifles and went to the "magnum contour" on ALL of them and provided fluting to somewhat mitigate the increased weight in the Alaskan Ti models.

$bob$

I haven't seen anything outside of anectdotal information on the subject.

My new LH SS Laminate Ruger 77 MK 2 06 no mods shoots well. Have only shot it a little but it shows promise.
165 Nosler BT 3 @ 100yd .426"
" 3@100yd 1.054"
168 Barnes TSX 3 @100yd 2.11"
165 Nosler Part 3@ 100yd 2.6"
" 3@100yd 1.4"
200 Gr Speer 3@100yd .61"

You mean you're not going to let a second-hand account of a magazine article lead you to demand a refund ?

DN

Having owned several Rugers,my own experience makes me believe if you can't shoot tiny groups with one,you simply can't shoot.
Mike

Hmmm Brian, I was hoping Ruger would've focused on making their M77's a little more accurate these days. I've only had one report on the Hawkeye and it wasn't good either--too bad, because the satin blueing was gorgeous, and fit and finish was nice on the rifle.

In all my years, I've had 3-4 rifles in Remington, Ruger, Winchester that would only go about 2 inches despite my best tuning and handloads--even my old M720's and Pre64 M70's will do 1 1/2 inch groups or better.

The newest rifle I have is a 2003 vintage M700 in 243W. Factory Core-Lokts and Federal Premium Partitions would do about 1 3/4 inch groups, but as soon as I cobbled together some handloads it would turn 1 inch five shot groups. A little tweaking with some 95 grain BT's would get me 3/4 inch five shot groups.

Man, I'm surprised/dissapointed to hear your Ti wouldn't do better than that!

When I was back in school 5-6 years ago, a fellow adult wildlife student fresh out of the military wanted a new elk hunting rifle. Tried to talk him into a M700, but he went for a M70 30-06 in the plain jain wrapper.

We went out to the range, I set him up with bags and a rest, and with factory Silvertips he promptly turned several groups easily under an inch! And here I am am with tuned factory rigs and custom barreled rigs--with carefully concocted handloads....and am thrilled to keep hunting loads at an inch or less

Just to "prove" those groups, we went out a couple of weeks later and my college buddy did it again!......

I always try Ballistic Tips in a rifle--it seems to be a good bullet to find out if the rifle is accurate or just plain picky--or won't cut the mustard.


Casey

"Personally, I think EVERY rifle should have a return policy - that is - if they don't already guarantee the accuracy of what they sell. If, say, after a week or so, you can't get a rifle to shoot like most bargain priced Savages or Tikkas do - you should be able to return it for a full refund."

I agree with that statement right there BC. I once bought a model 70 Winchester 30-06 and put about six boxes of shells through it and couldn't even get to under six inch groups at 100yrds. Now I've had model 70s before and since that would put bullets in the same hole and like that model. That one gun was just a lemon. I couldn't get a refund or a trade in a few weeks later. I kind of feel bad about trading to a guy for a dirt bike, except he traded it for a fastback Mustang that needed restored when he couldn't get a decent group out of it either. He wouldn't trade me the bike for the 'Stang either . That gun is still out there somewhere and I doubt that anyone has ever gotten it sighted in.

You are joking, correct? Haven't seen a Ti not shoot and can't see how adding close to a pound and $500 to the Ti made it a better rifle. I'm sure the Ti doesn't interest those that sit on their butts all day in a shooting blind, stand, what have you.


Haven't had a Ruger that wouldn't shoot either, but I've always been lucky that way.

I seem to remember a benchrest smith checked Brian's Ti and it had a bulge in the barrel, even when he reported this to Remington they wouldn't do anything. I am in the camp that these companies should be able to make a product that is good but not necessarily great out of the box. Some companies do and other don't. I don't feel I should have to bed and get a trigger job on a new gun just to make it shoot better than 1.5 inch groups so I don't. Most of my rifles are Sako's which require none of the above.

I don't believe I should be pro-active to make my life better. I should have everything given to me for a happy life, but it just ain't so and I don't mind a little work to make things Merry...

I don;t need everything perfect either, but would you buy a new truck and book the front end alignment at the time of delivery or would you make them fix it beforehand?

When I start paying $40K for a rifle, I'll get back to you.....

I'd rather a rifle not be bedded so I can do it the way I like. Unfortunately we don't come with "Life can cause death" stamped on our ass, no guarantees...

My experience with rugers has been mostly positive. The only real bad shooter I ever bought was a tang safty in .308 I bought a couple years ago cause it was cheap and in like new condidion.
It was awfull. I traded it strait across for a marlin 45/70 that shot rings around it.
But I had a tang safty 300 win that shot great. I curantly have a 77MK2 RL in the Roberts that is just excelent. I had to free float it to get it there but thats no trick.
I also have a #1A 7X57 that is remarkable.
I like rugers just fine.
If I spent 1300.00 on a rifle and it did not shoot, I dead seriously would either get it fixed a refund quite possibly wind up in jail.
That is too much money.
It seems to me it might be a good Idea to talk to a customer service rep before you buy a factory rifle. Get them to tell you what to expect from the product. and what to expect if it fails you. Get a name and employee number.
I,ll bet they will work harder for the money still in your pocket than them money you already gave them.
...tj3006

Was this ever remedied? How so?

If a company advertised a certain accuracy guaranty can you imagine how many people that dont shoot that good,keep blaming the rifle.How many that would be returned?Some guys wont shoot a group under 2 inches their whole life.There are a lot of people who shoot just once a year.......right before deer season.See where Im going?

Am I alone in feeling that sub 2moa would be just fine for big game hunting? I mean my 300weatherby vanguard is only slightly better than that, and it has been a hell of a productive hunting tool.

I get around 1 moa from my Ruger M77 in 220 Swift and it hits beldings ground squirrels out past 300 yards all the time, and I am able to take them offhand out to 100 often enough that I try it in front of witnesses.

My Ruger 7X57 (the first one) shoots under a half inch using a handload I dont like because of the bullets failure to provide the terminal performance I want. It shoots Bellier and Selliot ammo into over an inch, but the game is taken much more decisively.

So what does Nth degree accurracy really bring to the table? I think it is a placebo.

I would buy the Ruger if the factory only promised 2.5 inch MOA. After all it is a moose, elk, bear kind of gun, you know big close targets, not a varmit rig.

I applaud your boldness in sharing this inspiration.



Ruger has recently taken a very important step toward improving the accuracy of their rifles. Ruger now makes their own rifle barrels on new cold hammer-forging equipment. I have found from experience that the new Ruger barrels shoot very well indeed for production-grade sporters. It is still true that every barrel is slightly different, and every barrel has it's limitations. But I have had no trouble at all working through those limitations and finding accurate combinations with several new Rugers, and none have flunked-out altogether. If a new Ruger bolt-action rifle exhibits an accuracy "problem", almost invariably it involves the forend/barrel interface - which, incidentally, is about the easiest problem to fix if done correctly. Ruger #1s are a different breed of cat altogether. I have had success improving the accuracy of various #1s, but on other occasions I have been reduced to uttering 4-letter expletives. Happily, my latest #1, an A in 7x57, has proven wonderfully accurate right out of the box, for which I am eternally grateful (and relieved).

-

Brian
I agree with you on the accuracy if its representative, and I"ll never buy another new Ruger ever again, but due to the anti gun leaning issues the company founder had....

Jeff

Oh, Jesus H. CHrist.

Actually, in spite of the written word here & elsewhere, I think most factory rifles, including Remingtons, need a bit of work to shoot consistently
under 1"-1 1/2". Some never will.........many factory barrels have been straightened and whenever that occurs, ultra-fine accuracy from a gun with such a barrel is just happenstance and your good luck if you get such a rifle.

A little action bedding work, straighten the barrel channel side contact, fix the barrel bedding point, float the barrel or whatever else floats your boat is almost always in order & beneficial.

I also don't think that the vast majority of everyday "shooters" could should an inch consistently regardless of the capabilities of the gun.

MM

My "Benchrest Buddy" - Al Forsland, tore the rifle apart and spent the better part of a couple of days blueprinting the action, mating the lugs, recrowning the barrel, bedding the action and working on the horrible trigger - and through all this, he ended up giving me back a rifle that now shoots 3/4 inch groups.

If I had to pay him the going rate - for his hours of work on my behalf, the cost of the rifle would have almost doubled. Fortunately for me, our friendship enabled me to save a considerable amount of money.

But, even as he handed me the rifle back he said "It's still a horrible fouler due to that internal barrel swell an inch or so in front of the chamber and because of the general roughness of the bore." The internal swell is so great that when pushing a bore brush or swab though it - the rod will jump (with no resistance) past the swell until the bore narrows down again.

He said, if it were him - he send it away and get a "real barrel" from a custom quality barrel maker put on it. "Then you'd have a rifle!" he said.

So far, I haven't done that, I love so much about the rifle now - that I put up with its faults - and just clean it thoroughly every 5 to 10 rounds or so.

But, someday, it will get a REAL barrel.

Bummer to have to go to that much trouble on a rifle that wasn't cheeep in the first place. Not like it was a Stevens 200.

What did Remington say about the "swell"?

This was typical of groups with the 270gr factory load in my 375 Ruger Alaskan:





And a remarkably easy load development got me groups like this with 260gr Accubonds:




Maybe the writer was using iron sights?



In terms of acceptable accuracy- I would be happier with a very reliable rifle like a Ruger that shot consistent 2" groups at 100 rather than a tackdriver that was not as reliable.

Fortunatley most rifles these days seem to shoot around MOA with out to much trouble, so we can have reliable and accurate...

They said if I were an American, I could send it back at my own expense and they'd "look at it" - but since I was a Canadian - and they don't allow arms back into the USA, once they have been shipped out, that I'd "have to live with it".

Thus began my solemn vow to never have anything to do with Remington unless they change their policies to either give Canadians a place to return such problems, to include targets showing how the rifle shoots out of the factory, to guarantee accuracy of what they sell, or have their Canadian representatives allow for the return of rifles the BUYER considers unsatisactory.

As Remington has not moved towards doing any of those suggestions - as is, I've bought my last Remington.

Even Tikka, one of the cheaper rifles for sale in Canada, GUARANTEES 3 shots into an inch at 100 metres.

With differences in corporate policy like that - why anyone would buy a Remington in Canada - is beyond me.

In this day in age with the internet, I can't believe that companies allow bad customer service to be the standard they adhere to.

Great groups, too bad everyone can't expect such groups from their own rifles in today's mass marketed "buyer-beware" world.

The only way to be sure of such accuracy today, is to buy rifles like Weatherby's MOA Vanguard, or better yet a Tikka or a Sako - which GUARANTEE that level of accuracy in all of their own rifles.

2755fps ..... pretty good. What is the bbl length?

I think we can expect it. Or at least we can be about 90% sure. I haven't seen a new rifle that woudln't shoot in some time. There are many more good shooters than lemons out there.

20"

Well, it MUST be true. I mean, you posted it on the internet.

I've bought about 20 used Remingtons and 7-8 new ones in the last 2-3 years and haven't had a one of them (except two Titaniums mentioned below) that wouldn't shoot under an inch with my handloads.

I don't know what kind of rifles you're using but maybe you should change or try something else different.

I've stayed away from the thin barreled rifles lately except for two Titaniums in 308 and neither of them would hold under 3"-4" and I sold them both with warnings to the buyers that I'd had serious accuracy trouble with them. Neither buyer got them to shoot either and both sold them.

One of the Remington reps at the last Shot Show told me they'd discontinued the Titanium "non-magnums" due to accuracy complaints.

$bob$

Where I'm from, a gentleman doesn't suggest another man is lying without some evidence to back him up.

But, as we know, not everyone is a gentleman.

BC,

I wasn't suggesting you were lying. I was offering helpful (I hope)advice.

If I wanted to say you were lying I would just come right out and say it...

$bob$

Where's YOUR evidence, sport? All I see is a rather difficult to verify yarn, yet you expect everyone to take it at face value because YOU POSTED IT ON THE INTERNET.

In your parlance, not everyone tells the truth.

I find your motivations for posting this little tale of woe to be rather dubious. Seems a little odd that Ruger lists Canadian repair facilities, but you can't be helped. Or at least you claimed no one will help you.

http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/PS-InternationalCustomers.jsp?Country=Canada

I've only owned three Ruger centerfire rifles. The first was a 70s vintage Mini-14. Heard a lot about how inaccurate they were. After sighting, it was plenty accurate enough to keep a 2 pound coffee can rolling at 200 yards. Then, I bought a Ruger 77 in .30-06 despite their reputation for accuracy problems. I never reloaded for it and every box of factory ammo I shot out of it would produce 3 shot 1 inch to 1.5 inch groups from the roof of my car in the quarry (didn't have a range back then.) Then, I became enamored with the Ruger #1 in .30-06 even though rumors were that it needed a lot of tweeking to make it shoot good. Imagine my surprise when it shot inch and a half groups all day long...or until my ammo ran out. I then had that rifle converted to .45-70 with an octagon barrel and low and behold, it shot really well too.

I don't have any of those rifles anymore. But, I didn't get rid of them because they wouldn't shoot. I have rifles that will shoot sub-moa and some that won't.

Dan

My rifle was a Remington - or can't you read?

And the gunsmith and rifle dealer - Del Selin's Guns, of Vernon B.C. can verify everything I've said. Phone him up.

LDHunter - I was referring to Bricktop.

Okay, why is it REMINGTON's Canuck repair facilities can't assist you? The dealer you're referencing is a REMINGTON repair facility.

http://www.remington.com/support/repair_services/canadian_RARC.asp

Oh, well it MUST be true.

With the exception of Sako's & an older Rem. KS, not a single factory specimen from Win., Rem or Ruger I've bought in the last 6-7 years, has been free of all of the afflictions I mentioned.......especially prevalent is the tendency for the barrel to be touching one side or another of the barrel channel which I don't like.

Just picked up an new "old" model Rem Ti in 7-08 and when tightened down in the stock, the only part of the receiver forward of the mag cutoff that contacts the stock, is just in front of the mag well cutout and that is only point contact.

When I talked to Rem about it, they weren't even concerned and told me if I glass bedded the rifle, it would void the warranty on the stock......laughin'. Just a bit of barrel pressure !!! Essentially only being supported at the tang and barrel bedding point.

And this was the 2nd Ti I got; 1st one I received from the distributer, had a mismatched serial number on the bolt / receiver........with factory tape still on the box.

Guess you've just been extremely lucky with the guns you've gotten vs me, and/or an extremely good shooter or maybe your handloads are more magical than mine, but I doubt it.

However, I do have to say that most of the guns, once, tweaked to whatever degree, usually come around; once in a while though they do not.

As to shooting light rifles well, it takes a little bench technique as well as a capable gun. Although if one is fitted as the one I just got, and not corrected, I can see where you'd draw your conclusion.

But I'm glad you've been so successful with outa the box factory rifles.......

MM

.............

Bricktop,

I consider Del a friend. He IS the designated Remington repair center around here. He is a dealer as well.

The problems are two-fold. One (as has been stated by MANY on this post) is that Remington doesn't regard 2 1/2 groups as being "faulty".

Are the others that have told about that response from Remington lying? Can you tell me at what point Remington IS willing to act? Perhaps they will act on 3, 4, 5, or is it 6 inch groups? Is that Remington what will "guarantee" - without an actual written guarantee?

The problem with my Ti was this. Nothing, but nothing - could be done to "REPAIR" this gun - short of giving it a new barrel - one without an internal swell in it.

If one is lucky, and an AMERICAN, and living in the U.S.A. - a few people who have bought Remington's in the U.S.A. have actually had Remington install a new barrel on a defective rifle.

BUT (and it's a big but - for Canadians) Remington WILL NOT take a gun back across the border - once it has been sent into Canada. They used to (the Al Forsland I mentioned) once had Remington re-barrel a defective one he bought - he was lucky enough to have met the guy who was running their custom shop - and he got the red-carpet treatment - once upon a time. But (perhaps since 9/11) that has all changed. Canadian guns don't go back to the USA.

And since there is not a Remington dealer in Canada who can FIX a defective barrel - we get what we get - and we are stuck with it. The only way Remington will allow a new barrel to be put on one of their guns - is if THEY do it. And they don't take guns BACK - from CANADA.

If it was something Del could have fixed he would have. He'd like to keep my business and I've bought enough guns from the man. I don't fault him for anything on this matter - he spent a lot of time on the phone, on my behalf, talking to Remington.

I have no reason to lie about this. Are the others who stated that Remington had accuracy problems with many of the Ti's lying too? Is there a reason they were discontinued - as they were built before?

I still have the rifle and would be glad to show it to you, or anyone else. Right now, in spite of it's fouling problem, it's one of my favorites. I love the way it handles, and I love it's lack of weight.

I only wish I had recieved better treatment from Remington.

As I said before - why deal with companies like that? When you can buy relatively inexpensive Weatherbys, Tikkas and Sakos - which GUARANTEE the accuracy of what they produce?

Even for Canadians.

If you can find a way for me to send my rifle back to Remington for a repair - please tell me who to call - and I'll announce to the world (or at least everyone on this forum) that I was wrong - and you were right.

Oh, I believe everything you have to tell. It's on the internet isn't it? Therefore it's got to be true.

It's different up here with Remington, if they sell you something that is clearly defective they will replace it, up here they may try and repair it, but they refuse to take anything back no matter how bad it is. Remington has effectively NO CUSTOMER SERVICE in Canada. Other firearm mfg's from the US are not like this. I've had friends send damaged firearm peices to Savage and they were replaced, same with the Sako/Tikka distributor for Canada.

Give it up. Your village is missing you.

I've already stated I believe his story. Just like I believe everything else on the internet.

the horse is at the glue factory doors.

Yeah, well, I need some more Havana Club rum and short of finagling my way to Coo-bah, the only other place I know where it can be reasonably had is up in Canada, eh. How's that for a nice segue? Buddy?

Back on topic with an actual field report....

Just returned from the range after shooting my Ruger African for the first time. The cartridge were handloads of

300 gr Partitions
77 gr H4350
Fed 215M Primers

This was a very light load and enjoyable to shoot from the bench. After 3 rounds to sight in, I shot 3, 3-shot groups of 1-1/2 inch, 1-1/4 inch and 1-inch at 100 yards.

I can't wait to start some load development to find one that will shoot!

That's the exact results I've always had with Ruger.
Never really had to develop any loads,just pick one out of the middle of the range in the book,load them up and shoot.
Never even seen shotgun style groups out of any gun I've ever owned.

In short,I simply don't understand.
I have owned quit a few too?
Mike

Sorry, but 77 gr of powder just ain't a "light" load in my book.
Now where is that .250 Savage I was gonna shoot today?

One thing about Rugers that I wsh they woud change is build the Roberts on there short action. I loaded up a dummy round for mine , A long action roberts, Using a 120 grain prtition and loaded just off the lands and it fit the magazine of about 4 short action rugers i played with...tj3006

I had a ruger 77 mark II that just sucked,in 25-06 we tried everything,bedded the action,floated the barrel,factory ammo,reloads,light bullets,heavy bullets middle of the road bullets,never could make it shoot any better than a 12 gauge with No.4 buckshot,It wore me out and traded it off,Ive had some old ruger 77s that were just deadly and some of this newer stuff just appears to be junk,but look at the motive,back when I was a kid people seem to take pride in what they built and you could buy pretty accurate rifles right out of the box,today they throw your junk together want you 2 pay 3 times what its worth,accuracy sucks and once they got your money they tell you to get lost they are not going to mess with it,today you can buy a rifle like we used to get back in the 70s and befor but it now referred to as buying a custom rifle,$1000-$2000 and right on up,I look at some of the new guns at gun shows and they just suck,I wouldnt waist my time,this whole mess has had me do an about face,when I go huntin for a gun today,Im lookin back down the trail behind me.

What was the OAL of that 120gr Partition load?

While I haven't loaded Partitions in my Roberts, I have used 110 ABs, Hornady 120HPs and Hornady 100s in a 700 long action. The OAL for each was over 3" allowing for more powder. The ABs get over 3000fps and the 100s over 3100fps.

glad yer back.......