why does no manufacturer legitimize the 25-08? every other caliber based on the 308 win case is commercially successful, and some greatly so. every one is in current production with at least one major rifle manufacturer. i would think a lot of guys would buy the 25-08. i would. has any of our industry insiders heard of a manufacturer that is considering it?

-

The .25-.308 has been around for many years as a wildcat; Warren Page worked with it, calling the cartridge the .25 Souper.

When Winchester was working with the "Special" series, in ceveloping the 7.62 NATO, they had the case down to .12 caliber and as large as .40 caliber. There is no doubt that Winchester worked extensively with the .25.

Apparently, the manufacturers decided that the magic was to be found in .243", .264", .284", .308, .338" and .358".

Personally, I believe that the .25 Souper with a good 100-grain bullet would be an excellent big game round.

Steve

believe it or not but my evil twin has long wanted to do a 270/08.....gack gack gack

Dober

I think you will find it offers no gains over the .260 Rem on the top end and no gains over the .243 below it.

If you look at the scrutiny that goes into bullets and case design here for example, I would also expect to see great flack generated over seating those long 120 grain bullets in a short necked, low volume case.

AGW

'Cept it would actually be suitable for whitetail deer.
[running for cover]

Seriously though, would seating, say a 117 gr, in a 25-08 be any different than a 154 gr in a 7-08?

The .25-08 has about 2 grains less case capacity than the .257 Roberts, which in the real world means there's no ballistic difference between the two. Since both work fine in a 2.8" magazine (in fact the Roberts has always been factory loaded to about that length) there was no point to the .25-08, especially now that most factory .257 ammo is +P and gets pretty decent muzzle velocities.

I can just see it now. The factories introduce the .25-08 (maybe called the .250 Super-Duper) with a 100-grain bullet at 3100 and a 117 at 2900 (about what could be safely accomplished in factory ammo) with great fanfare, and many gun writers slaying unfortunate pronghorns and whitetails right and left. Then the gun writers rush to their computers and desperately try to convince the gun-buying public that somehow these ballistics are new and revolutionary and absolutely necessary for slaying pronghorns and whitetails.

Stranger things have been done, but the limited runs of .257 Roberts rifles that Ruger and occasionally others make seem to satisfy the public's desire for such ballistics.

Think of it as a 243 Winchester on steroids - heavier bullets and probably better for deer than the 243. It would be a flat shooting, high velocity round, if loaded to 62K psi or so (like the 260 Remington). On the other hand, with the 260, we don't need the 25-08, but then we don't need half of the cartridges that have been introduced in the last 30 years.

No need for it with the 257bob and 260. The 260 is so close to it only .007 bigger bullet.

The 7mm-08 does it for me though. The good 120's for deer on down and the 140's to 160's for deer on up!

I would say not many people could tell the difference in the recoil from a 25-08 or 260 shooting 120's and a 7mm-08 blasting them, just notice the 2-300 extra FPS.

Besides . . . .

the 257 ROberts is much coooler.

BMT

I have two, but it reads 250AI on the barrels...

If we were to get Elk here in Alabam'I'd be wanting me one of them .260/.338's....Course i wouldn't NEED it i could just buy a .30/06 and those 180 Partitions...But my name is Dave and i belong to 24hourcampfire dot com and they made me into a Rifle Loony.

"Personally, I believe that the .25 Souper with a good 100-grain bullet would be an excellent big game round"

I agree!

As good at the 243 win is, the 25-308 would be even better with more bullet weight selection.

I will keep shooting my 257 bobs until the 25-308 comes around.

"I think you will find it offers no gains over the .260 Rem on the top end and no gains over the .243 below it"

Exactly!

It is a happy medium between the two. for better or worse, the 243 is here to stay. I dont think the 260 will be all that popular over time. with the 25-308, you could do away with both!

If I am going to have a 6mm, mine is and will be the 240 Wby. As fars as 6.5s go, I tried six or seven and they are all gone, too close the the King (the 270).

"I can just see it now. The factories introduce the .25-08 (maybe called the .250 Super-Duper) with a 100-grain bullet at 3100 and a 117 at 2900 (about what could be safely accomplished in factory ammo) with great fanfare, and many gun writers slaying unfortunate pronghorns and whitetails right and left. Then the gun writers rush to their computers and desperately try to convince the gun-buying public that somehow these ballistics are new and revolutionary and absolutely necessary for slaying pronghorns and whitetails"

John, I nominate you for the job, seriously!

The 257 is great, I have invested in three of them that currently reside in my safe.

A 25-308, loaded to modern pressures, would be a fine cartridge indeed and probably the most ideal beginners cartridge you could find.

The 257 rob is simply jaded by those who dont know it well and is loaded cool (I know you can get +p stuff but that confuses most folks).

come on John, what do you say???

Sometimes I wonder if I am writing into a rifle loony vacuum. I mean, I like to argue nits as much as anybody, but this one takes the cake.

Only one company doesn't load +P .257 ammo these days. That's Remington, with their 75-year old round-nose Core-Lokt load at 2650.

Other than that, the SLOWEST .257 load on the market is the Federal 120-grain Nosler Partition "Premium," advertised at 2780 fps. In every 24" barrel I've ever shot it through (and 24" is what most commercial rifle ammo is standardized with these days), this ammo has exceeded 2800 fp, sometimes by quite a bit. The other two companies that load .257 ammo, Winchester and Hornady, offer faster loads with 117-grain bullets, one the Hornady Light Magnum, which gets well over 2900 fps in 24" barrels.

So three of the four major ammo companies already make .257 Bob ammo that will duplicate anything the .25-08 would do. Plus, probably 1% of the rifle loonies who would buy a .25-08 wouldn't buy factory anyway. They'd load their own.

Yeah, the factories might offer a 100-grain load, but again so what? Then they would be competing with the 100-grain .243 Winchester and 100-grain .25-06. Believe me, the average guy (or even the average rifle loony) is not going to buy a .25-08 so that he can slightly exceed the .243 but not quite match the .25-06, no matter how much anybody beats the drum for short actions.

If for some reason he does, he can still find a .257 Roberts, either used or in a new Hawkeye. They just sold a .257 Hawkeye at the local store the other day. I also have been secretloy told that another major rifle company is going to bring out a .257 Bob soon.

If anybody wants a .25 that essentially matches the .257 Roberts (or .243 or .25-06), yet DOESN'T want a .257 Roberts, then they are a rifle loony beyond all redemption and will go ahead and get a .25-08 made. Or a .250 Ackley or .257 Ackley or .25/.284 or any of a zillion slight variations that all do basically the same things as a handloaded .257 Bob or .25-06.

And there really isn't enough difference between any of them for even the average rifle loony to tell any difference in the field. I know, because I have used about all of them, and if the bullet ends up in the same place, and the animal dies.

Now, maybe one of our friends from the 800-yard big game shooting club could tell us precisely how and why each differs, but they would probably be using a "tactical" .308 or a 6.5mm wildcat, instead of a boring old .25 caliber.

So let it die. Or go buy a .257.

I was looking for a 257 Roberts and Mickey Coleman was selling a 250AI he had build for himself. I now own two 250AI's.

Funny how things play.....

JB:

"Plus, probably 1% of the rifle loonies who would buy a .25-08 wouldn't buy factory anyway. They'd load their own."

I think I know what you meant, but that's not what you said!

"I also have been secretloy told that another major rifle company is going to bring out a .257 Bob soon."

Oh, please let it be the new M70, in a short action Featherweight!

Ah com'on John, you can tell us. We'll keep it a secret!

I'll bet that the .12 Special, the T-65 case necked to .124", was pretty fast and it sure threw a hatful of powder down a small hole. Good way to burn out a barrel in one-hundred rounds.

Steve

I suppose I have to plead guilty to the rifle loony tag.

Page one: I looked long and hard for a bolt-action 250 Savage. Nada. Ten years of nada. Seems to be a rifle that NOBODY lets escape from their safe. Gotta be a reason.

Page two: Possibly the one round that Parker Otto gushed about the most was the 250AI. So I cogitated. Then I looked up the 250AI case capacity. Hmmmm, right at 50 grains of water. Hey, wait a sec. Isn't the... Yes!

Page three: LOVE my 25-308! Getting 250AI ballistics with MUCH easier to find and form cases is just a thrill. No, it doesn't do anything a lot better than the 243 or the (then nonexistent) 260. But it does what it does with panache. When people at the range see the targets and ask about it, they marvel. I bask in the glow from their wide-eyed faces.

If somebody offered it in a trim lightweight sporter, I'd be flipping plastic at 'em pronto.

John, your point is well made for sure. However, the 257 roberts is what it is and I just don't see how you can build a successful marketing case around the cartride to make it the "243 of the next century". there is simply too much history to get the industry to "reinvent it". even if the 25-308 is basically the same thing, at least it would be something new that a marketing campaign could be built around.

new generations of hunters want better, improved stuff. I think the 25-308 could fill this need.

I just think it would be a dandy round, even if it doesn't offer anything really new.

with 243, 260, 7mm08, 308 and 358 all on the 308 case, why not the good ole all American 25 cal.

please do not attempt to apply logic to this request!

It is with the 110 AB.....

That sums it up right there.

25-08?

isnt the .260 close enought (and just about perfect)

i love my 260. i loved my 243s and 257 bob too, but the bob was in a long action ruger. i just thought a 25-08 in a kimber 84m with pretty wood would be nice. if they make it, i'll buy. if not, i'll get another 243. should have kept the bofors sako forester.

does any major maker build a 257 bob on a short action?

-

If anyone can get the 25-308 domesticated, it is Mule Deer (now, if we can only convince him that is should be done)!

does any major maker build a 257 bob on a short action?

just take any win 70 short action and send it to douglas barrels and they will send you back a 257!

Doubt that the 25-08 would happen. My bucks (and very few of them) are on the 25-284 for a wildcat domestication.

BMT

Sadly, I must agree.

BMT

Why not the 25 WSM? Seems they would sell more since "magnum" is in the name.

I have more 25cals than I should: 25CCR(wildcat),257Roberts, 25 Souper, 25/06, 25/284 and 25WSM. Don't know if I forgot any. I hunt with the 25Souper and use the 257Roberts as a loaner rifle for youth hunts or for some of the ladies.
120gr Sierra BTHP in the Souper and a 100gr NoslerBT in the Roberts. Both are great on deer, never a problem.
I think the Souper would sell like hotcakes, not that it is any better than the Roberts, just newer. Why is the 7/08 so much more popular than the 7x57 and they are about ballistic twins. Why has the 300WSM do so well when in reality it is no better than the 300WM. Short action and no belt, WOW. I load all my rounds and much prefer the 300WinMag. Gave my 300WSM to my son-in-law. With the proper add campain the Souper would be a seller. I think the 260 will die out, sorry guys.Rick.

Actually, the .308 case is getting very dated. What we need for the next generation is a 6.5x47 Lapua necked-down to .25. Get Ruger to chamber it as the 257x47 77.

If you don't like that, how about the 6.5 Creedmore necked down? Call it the Quarter Creedmore.

KS

ETA: Added a smiley just in case.

What if all the major gun companies pledged not to develop another new cartridge unless it could truly achieve something not achievable by an existing cartridge? What if they then directed all their R & D resources toward building better guns?

If the R & D people did that we would nothing to complain about. New cartridges is what is keeping the gun industry going.

How many of us still need a 243,270,30-06 7mmMag or 223, the big 6 according to sales.

I would welcome a 25-08 but doubt any gun/ammo manufacturer would take the risk. Look at what "used" 257 roberts are selling for.

Doc

but not until i send them a big fat check. then i would have one rifle for the price of two. no thanks. don't need a 25-08 that bad.

-

Guess I need to buy one of the Rifle Looney hats! I had a .257 DGR built on a Rem 7 action. Duane Spooner built it and it is a .260 Rem case necked to .257 with shoulder set back slightly to lengthen neck. As close to a .25 Souper as possible without actually being one. About 150 to 200 fps faster than .243 with 100 grain bullets and has better selection of lighter weight bullets than .260 Rem. Very versatile for varmints, coyotes up to deer. With up to 120 grain bullets it is probably better than .243 for deer. Does nothing that .250 Savage AI,.257 Bob or 25-06 would not do. Agree it is a niche specialty for all reasons stated.

Wincehster gave you something MUCH better: The 25 SUPER SHORT MAGNUM.

There now, doesn't that feel better? . . . . .

BMT

So many "inbetweens". We only need Quarters: 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, & 50. Think of the saving in bullet manufacture that could go into bullet technology. Build them based only on military brass: 223, 308, 30-06, 45-70, 50 BMG.

yes, the 25-284 would be a dandy but let's no get carried away for now. you could market the 25-284 as a "short action 25-06" and maybe that could get some traction.

the 25s should do better in the US.

ricksmith,

The 7mm-08 sells better than the 7x57 because it works in a short action, and there is a perception that 7mm-08 factory ammo is a lot faster than 7x57 factory (which really isn't true, but perception goes a long way). Also, the throats on 7mm-08 rifles are very consistent, unlike the throats on 7x57's, which vary all the way from pretty short to really, really long.

The .257 was designed to work in a 2.8" magazine, and in fact all factory ammo fits neatly in a short magazine. Therefore the .25-08 would be redundant.

The myth that the .257 needs a longer action to work is just that, a myth. Apparently it got started back in the 1930's when the only rifles for the round had long actions, because ALL bolt rifles (except the 1920 Savage) had long actions. These long-action rifles had spacers in the magazines so the .257 would feed better. At least one of the rifles, the Winchester Model 70, also had a long throat. So the short (2.8") factory .257 ammo did not shoot so well.

Rifle loonies took out the magazine spacer, then handloaded .257 ammo with bullets seated out a little longer, which shot better. They also guessed they were getting a lot more velocity, and they probably were, because the .257 factory ammo of the day was really wimpy. But it wasn't because they could seat the bullets out further.

All of that changed after World War Two. Winchester fixed the throat on their Model 70's to match 2.8" .257 ammo, and Remington brought out the 722 with a short magazine in .257, which worked fine. Nowadays all .257 factory except Remington is loaded to modern velocities, and works fine in short actions.

Yet you still read and hear about how the .257 Roberts needs a long action to work right, despite the fact that any reason for that "reasoning" disappeared maybe 60 years ago.

You're correct as always, JB. But your reasoning also makes the 7-08 "redundant." Yet, it sells pretty darn well. I'd bet the 25-08 would, too. Redundant or not.

Heck, as we have both pointed out many times, there's hardly any practical difference among dozens of currently chambered rounds. In essence, half the cartridges made today are redundant. Or more than half. Yet, there are markets for almost all of them, and it's darn hard to predict which new ones will succeed or fail. Some new ones eclipse older ones, and some new ones fade away while older ones persist. And, some new ones parade right along with the equally popular older ones, even though they are redundant.

I think in JB's comparison of the 7mm-08 and 7x57, the same argument could be made (and has) regarding the 257 and 25-308. I fully modern short 25 without the history (good or bad) of the 257. With a false reputation of low velocity loads, long action required, long throats, the 25-308 would benefit from a fresh start.

Occasionally you would see a factory 257 in a long action, don't know why the did this.

Remmy built this Bob on a short action.
[img][IMG]http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m238/Kevin_Teed/257Bob.jpg[/img][/img]

The longer I own it, the more that I grow to appreciate the .257 Rbts. I originally started with factory ammo with the 117 or 120 gr. loads and that killed deer with little fuss. I then started handloading and found that the 100 gr. Hornady kills deer pretty darn well also. Now I tend to use 100 gr. for "regular" hunting and 115 gr. Partitions for "big deer"! Probably not a lick of difference, but gives me an excuse to do some loading!

Wait'll you see what a 75 VMax does to a chuck. Or how an 85 BT anchors a coyote right NOW. Like my 25-308 does.

Truly, the Souper and the Roberts are analogous to a Fuji and a Macintosh apple: one is a newer variety, but both are delicious.

257Bob,

When Remington made their yearly Classic rifle in the .257 Roberts, it was on a long 700 action, thus leaving over 3/4" of empty space in front of the round in the magazine. They did this because Remington's P.R. guy at the time, Dick Dietz, told the suits that "if they didn't make it on the long action, the gun nuts wouldn't buy 'em." I suspect Dick was right.

Other commercial .257's built on long actions may have been due to the same rationale. Other were made that way just because the company only made a certain action length. I had an FN Mauser .257 for a while in the early 1990's, made on the standard FN 98 action.

Maybe the .25-08 would be a success as a commercial cartridge. But it costs a LOT of money to bring out a new round, and many of the more recent introductions have been real flops. I dunno if any of the manufacturers would be willing to legitimize something that doesn't have a bunch of buzz already surrounding it.

Many of the wildcats that succeed as commercial rounds already have that buzz. In fact, the buzz is what brings them to the attention of the major companies. Sometimes this has to go on for decades before some company takes a chance with, say, the .22-250 or .25-06. But sometimes it doesn't. The .300 WSM was not an inspiration from on high at Winchester. It was a direct outgrowth of several short-fat cartridges, including the Lazzeronis and the Jamison series.

Similarly, the 7mm-08 had a lot of such buzz before Remington ran with it. So did the .243 Winchester and 6mm Remington, and the 7mm Remington Magnum and .300 Winchester Magnum. All of these grew out of shooters interest that essentially DEMANDED the factories bring out those rounds.

I don't think the .25-08 has that buzz, despite the people promoting it here. Just out of curiousity, how many of you who think it should be legitimized ALREADY have a .25-08?

Since when has the fact that there was no need for a particular cartridge ever gotten in the way ?

I've never owned a Bob, but I used to own a 6mm Remington on a Rem 700 SA. That cartridge had a lot of things that were pretty desirable, but I did not like the fact that I could not load to the cartridge design Max COL (2.825") without having feeding issues within the magazine. This was due to the short Remington box. A 257 Roberts (or 6mm Rem, or 7x57, et.al) on a Winchester SA would make a lot more sense to me due to the significantly longer box. If the 257 Roberts was as readily available as the 7mm-08, I'd have one by now - considering the ballistics, for deer hunting it is hard to imagine anything more suitable. Given the right box length, there is nothing to recommend a 25-08 over the Bob other than maybe a minutia difference in action weights based on manufacturer.

Given all the aforementioned logic about standardizing the 25-08, don't the same arguments apply to the 270 Redding, aka 27-08. Seems to me the better mouse trap would be the 270WSM necked down to 25.

Everyone seems to keep pining for a 25WSM. Didn't I read somewhere that Winchester investigated the 25WSM and the cartridge had pressure spike problems or something?? Or maybe I just dreamed that.

Mule Deer,

"Just out of curiousity, how many of you who think it should be legitimized ALREADY have a .25-08?"

I don't because I have owned several of the following.

250-3000
257
257imp
25-06
257 wby

My point is that I had some fun with wildcats but I am no longer willing to build rifles that require brass that does not match the stamp on the barrrel. I had some fun experimenting but now I am culling the herd and sticking with just a few cartridges. I like just about any 25cal.

Rifle loonieism has nothing to do with logic and general fun at the loading bench but I do try to apply logic to this case.

If 25s have a good history in the US, say the 250-3000, 257, 25-06 and 257 wby, why not a 25 on the very popular 308 case.

Certainly, it's not going to change the world but it makes sense to me for the reasons I tried to explain in previous posting on this subject.

I am convinced that if you decided that you could honestly like a 25-308 and use one with regularity and wrote about it on occasion, a market could be built to support a commercial cartridge.

It would not happen overnight but I do belive it would take. the 243 is a fine deer cartridge but it still has some folks say it is not enough for deer or make excuses for poor shooting.

I think the 25-308 could steal some of the 243s thunder and you are just the guy who could get it done.

I bought three 6.5x55s after reading your articles, on three occasions!

YES- and then brought back the Bob.

I have a safe full of rifles. If all that was available was the 30-06, I would have one rifle. If you want to sell me another rifle, offer it in an interesting chambering.

The only ruger I own is chambered in 7.62x39. Because of the unique chambering (at least for bolt action rifles), Ruger sold me a rifle.

We dont need R&D to build better guns, just more quality control. the 100 year old mauser 98 design is fine, just finish it well, fit it well, bed it well and offer it in a walnut stock with some figure. quality, not technology!

Really, I don't need any more, I have enough model 70s to last me and my sons. Hunted all deer season in GA, almost 12 weeks long, with a brand spanking new win 70 in 257 wby with a zeiss classic scope.

never fired a shot!

I think rem was right track with their classic line, offered in a unique chambering annually. folks bought those rifles just to get the chambering and start a collection.

winchester should have done the same. I would have bought one every year.

my win classic list would have looked something like this;

220 swift
240 wby mag
257 roberts
257 wby mag
264 win mag
270 wby mag
7x57
300 h&h

I would have to be creative from there!

To my way of thinking, that kind of "smoke and mirrors" hype is part of what is done wrong with new cartridge introductions. I would much rather see and hear the advertisments say exactly what are the real advantages of the cartridge. I would think that many folks would appreciate some honesty for a change. In the case of the 25-08, the ads could incklude words like:

- "low recoil but plenty of power for deer out to 300 yards or more"
- "short-action cartridge that is perfect in lightweight rifles"
- "perfect deer rifle"
- "a little larger than the 243, but just as flat-shooting and with similar recoil"
- "performance like the 257 roberts but in a handier short-action rifle"

comparisons to other cartridges like the 250 savage, 257 roberts, and 25-06 can be stated positively and made into assets. there are a lot of guys out there that hold the 250 savage and 25-06 in high regard. i would think that showing all three rounds in an add with a comparison of velocities and trajectories would be a good thing - like dropping a good name during an interview (something that i know works very well). i don't think it is necessary to try to convince folks that the 25-08 is somehow better than a 25-06. the 25-08 is a neat idea. i think it will fly on it's own merit. just accentuate the positive.

-

Just for the record, I'm not sure it would or could be a successful commercial round. But I can vouch that's a very easy, very useful and very pleasant round to have. It's an "easycat" for those wishing to dip their toes into wild waters for the first time. It's a nearly perfect rifle for a small-statured shooter. It's got just a wisp of snob appeal. It's just a good, honest cartridge with a broad range of uses. That's enough.

Big Redhead,

But that is exactly the sort of hype everything gets these days.

Also, Please explain how I could provide a reasoned argument for the virtues of the .25-08, with the .257 Roberts already filling that slot.

I am not saying it wouldn't be fine round. But I doubt any manufacturer is going to invest several hundred thousand dollars in a new commercial cartridge that, aside from irrelevant differences in shoulder angle and length, has no advantages over an already existing cartridge. After all, the .257 Bob isn't exactly dead. The best that could be expected for the .25-08 is as a niche cartridge, and the .257 already fills that slot.

Also, the ballistically redundant cartridges introduced in recent years have at least had SOMETHING different about them, mostly the ability to fit in shorter actions. Now, admittedly the .300 Rem. Ultra Mag really doesn't do anything the .300 Weatherby doesn't--but it also doesn't have that evil belt. So there's a selling point right (and some people seem to be convinced that belts ARE evil), along with slightly greater powder capacity. Which is why the .300 RUM still sells. It sells relatively slowly, but it sells.

But the .25-08 does not fit in a shorter action than the .257 Roberts, and the Bob does not have an evil belt. Plus, .257 brass is cheap and available, and today's factory loads are probably the best there have ever been available. Enough .257 rifles are produced to apparently fill the demand.

The .25 WSSM was supposed to fit in the .257's ballistic slot (or least the ballistic slot of the handloaded .257, which is where the .25-08 would go). It fell flat on its face, despite fitting in a really short action and supposedly being super-accurate. If the PR maschine couldn't convince the rifle-buying public that the .25 WSSM was The Answer, with all the hoopla about short cartridges over the past few years, what chance would the .25-08 have?

You're right. There has been too much smoke and mirrors in the past few years, and I suspect even a "reasoned" attempt at selling the virtues of the .25-08 would result in a big, "Oh, yeah?" from everybody except the looniest of rifle loonies.

John, what you have explained about the .257 rob., does not jell with the general shooting public. They believe it needs to come in a long action to handle 120 gn. pills, this is to them reinforced by the fact that the parentcase, (no one tells them the 2.8" story), 7 x 57 mm needs a medium / long action, it also getrs baggage due to its weak association to the 244 rem, it is only available intermittently in a POS Ruger, uses expensive and hard to obtain (compared to 08) cases if you are a reloader, has limited options in factory ammo....the list goes on. It can't get much worse. Apart from loonies the roberts is dead...

The .25 souper would not suffer from all this baggage. Would it be much better than a .243 or a .260. this depends on your marketing department.

PS. i have a .257 rob ai but would rather have had a .25 souper, so am not anti .25.

Get it with the right SA and there is no issue with the Bob vs the Souper. I agree with JB on this, how many out in this admittedly rifle loonie forum have one of the new T/C 30 cartridges? Why bother with something that is essentially already out there in the 308? was most people's reaction (including mine). Maybe this cartridge would sell, it is definitely high on "cool", but so is the Bob. Even if it is old. Today's bullets and higher pressure loadings have turned the Bob into one of my want guns, it just needs the right platform, which I ain't seen yet. Ought to be awesome on yotes and white tails.

maybe i missed something, but the only current 257 bob rifle i know of is the ruger m77 long action. that means to me the selling point of the 25-08 is 257 bob performance in a short action rifle. if i am wrong, then name one current short action rifle in 257 bob.

-

This is the problem for me. I looked at a Hawkeye the other day and it was OK, (the trigger was downright fantastic) but I don't want the Bob in a long action.

The rifle that has been mentioned several times as a great match to the Bob is the Kimber 84M. However, here we go again with the 2.8" OAL restriction and I'm still not clear on what this would mean when loading longer bullets and trying to get close to the rifling.

I think Big_Redhead nails the only potential appeal of the .25 Souper, and that is counteracting the fears about stuffing the Bob into a short action (It's also not a stupid-looking cartridge like the WSSM.)

KS

Many hunters have no idea the Bob even exist. I have several and when a hunting buddy inquires to the chambering of the particular rifle, I tell them it's a 257 Roberts and they just kinda look at me funny for shooting some antique they have never heard of.

A "new" 25-308 would attract a new and upcoming generation of shooters and with the 308 parent, most folks would have some idea as to it's origin.

The 260 rem was not necessary and does not bring any whiz bang to the market but it is still breathing. yes, it is a 6.5x55 in a short action but who in the US uses the 6.5 (except for a few loonies)?

The 260 was a answer for a problem that did not exist. with the 243 and 7mm-08 on each side, especially a never popular in the US .264.

25s do generally ok in the US. the 250-3000 is just about unavailable, the 257 has limited availability in new rifles but he 25-06 has a following the the 257 wby is the fo shizzle for those 25 fans that like a little speed.

emerging new hunters are not going to hunt with grandpa's antique 257, even if it is excellent. a new 25-308, now that might get their attention!

I would build one, and still may, but damn sure am not going to feed any cartridge in my chamber that is stamped 243 or 260! I guess I would have to find other brass.

For better or worse, the 270 makes a pretty good youth rifle these days with reduced recoil ammo. I think this could bite the manufacturers in the long run as they may sell fewer rifles. buy the kid a 270, shoot reduced recoil ammo and then shoot the regular stuff when he gets bigger. only buying one rifle instead of two. oh well, that's another issue.

JB, I think you could promote the virtues of the 25-308 honestly with no smoke or mirrors. It's simply a modern 257 and useful for many applications.

Still, you could not call it the 257 Barsness 'cause I have met you personally and I am still not sure how to pronounce your name!

I think that's an X-ring hit.

I made mine from 7-08 because there was no 260 back then. Done slowly with virgin brass, one pass through the sizer worked almost perfectly. Too fast resulted in buckling. But a pass through the seater die first (lubed of course) works like an intermediate sizer and allows even 308 brass to be used. The only brass I found too thick to use without thinning the neck was Federal Match 308; all others worked fine as is.

Mule Deer,

I'm struggling with your assessment that the cost of introduction would be "hundreds of thousands of dollars." If the company already makes 25 caliber barrels, the only cost for actual production I can think of for 25-08 barrels would be for consumables such as chamber reamers (or hammer forging mandrel) and caliber stamp, and the capital cost for test/inspection gauges. Then there is the cost of the new markings on the packaging, which is probably just a bit of programming. Of course there would be the cost of implementing the new part numbers in the MRP and production scheduling systems. For ammo production it would mean new case forming dies and load development, and the costs involved with SAAMI standardization and patent processing. Then there is the cost of the ad campaign. Gee, now that we begin to itemize it, I can see where the cost of introduction could very well be hundreds of thousands.

-

Why even advertise? Drop the 243, drop the 260, introduce the 25-08 and watch everyone start to talk!

Killsoft -about longer bullets, aren't copper bullets like Barnes shorter in the same weight than standard bullets? if so, wouldn't that help negate the action size? I haven't used or reloaded the Barnes yet so I am just wondering if it might make a difference for you ( or me for that matter).

The 25 Souper (25-08) was proposed by a Mr. Lambert when the military version of the 308 had just come out. At that time the .25 bore was not deemed all that accurate only because the bullets made before Sierra got into business were not accurate.

Warren Page and Fred Huntington of RCBS were working on 6mm's and Huntington (Rock Chuck Bullet Swage) knew how to make accurate bullets. Page mocked the 25 Souper by introducing one of his rounds as the 240 Page Souper Pooper.

The public had tired of the .25" and was ready for the 6mm's and the commercial version of Page's 243 Souper Pooper evolved into the 243 Winchester. The rest is history and the .25" bore never recovered not that there is or was anything wrong with it.

The best reason at this point for no 25 Souper is that it might be fired in a 243. Another is that there would be little demand for it.

No, solid copper bullets are generally longer than lead core bullets. Copper is less dense than lead per volume, so for a given volume it will weigh less. For a given weight, there will be a larger amount of copper. Lead is about 27 percent more dense than copper.

Put another way, the bore diameter of the two bullets you're comparing is fixed - can't increase. You could imagine that the extra copper to bring the weight back up to match the lead bullet must squish out axially <--> toward the chamber and muzzle. You'd get a longer pure copper bullet that weighs the same as the shorter lead core bullet.

KS

25/08 can be fired in a 243 is no reason not to introduce the round, the same can be said for a lot of rounds already on the market. How do you know how much demand there would be if it is not on the market. Pure speculation. If there were anywhere near the fanfare published on a 25Souper as there was with the short mags, they would sell. The 257Roberts is an excellent round but the buying public is not educated to that. An article every few years on the Roberts won't sell them. A rush of articles on the new 25Souper that equals the velocity of "The fine 257 Roberts" but in a short action with modern powders and a wide selection of bullets the improved version will "crowd" the excellent 25/06. Less recoil, shorter action, lighter rifle, etc. Yep! Think a case could be made for it.Rick.

Go ahead and do it Rick. Put your money on it.

http://www.reloadingroom.com/index_files/25-308.htm

Savage99, you haven't told me anything I didn't already know. I have a 257Roberts and 25Souper. Both great shooters thank you.
I don't suppose they coud change the headspace if they made a Souper, yes way too difficult. You never cease to amaze me.Rick.

You may have them but I detect that your unhappy.

You are absolutely wrong! I like both rounds but prefer to use the Souper for hunting. The Souper is built on a 700SA and the 257Roberts is an UL Ruger. Both take whitetails without a problem. Since I am not aware of any Roberts being offered in a SA, I still think the Souper would outsell the Roberts by a wide margin.Rick.