wow, just read a very well written article from a 1986 issue of American RIfleman. THese 2 collaborated on the 7mm Rem and how it came to be and how they have used it and seen it used...

One thing I noticed is it is amazing how much American RIfleman has gone downhill!!

Interesting to say the least. Les wrote of many clients not handling the 300 win/weatherby recoil levels as well pertaining to accuracy as the 7mm which he helped develop originally calling it the "280 rem mag." Warren Page said this about the 7mm: We still have available no better all-around, multipurpose big game round then the 7mm rem mag. It is a superb cartridge.

The 7mm rem was around for years as a wildcat before remington launched it in 1962 in conjunction with the model 700... I bet roy weatherby was kicking himself for stubbornly keeping his 7mm ROY in the 1 in 12" tWist configuration

With bullet technology the way it is nowadays, it has lowered the caliber diameter and/or bullet weight needed compared to yesteryear... A 160 or 175 TSX is going to probably fully penetrate any elk alive or come damn close to it... I wonder what FInn would think of it with modern projectiles?

Dat same article is one of Finns books which is one of my most treasured reads around.

Aside from JB and one or two others they just don't make em like they used to!

Dober

eah, it's a collection of Finn's shooting pieces from both NRA mags. Mine is falling apart but stil in one piece. It needs to be reprinted by somebody.

That is a biiiiiiiig 10-4.

Mine has about had it also.

Ditto for mine!

Dober

Finn was one who walked the walk and is fun to read,, learned alot from his experience and his way with words,love Bob Hagel and his work also,, and who could not like Bob Milek

Les said Mike Walker and Wayne Leek were the people on the inside at Remington that made the cartridge come to life, without them it wouldnt have happened and he originally loaded it with HODGON "DATA" Powder AKA IMR 4831

Dakota-slam dunk Bob and Bob were some of my favs as well!

Dober

Mine is falling apart as well.

Bought Finn's "Hunting Rifles and Cartridges" on Amazon for an xmas present, paid 65 bucks for a used one,, Yes that book is worth every dime, I would like to add, much can be learned from the gunnies on here,,

Sadly, Remington will never see the likes of Walker & Leek again......

Sure you don't mean H4831 instead of IMR?

MM

That's okay ... because Remington is not the company it used to be. Regarding reprinting Finn's work ... yes PLEASE!
Cheers...
Con

When "Finn" passed away the NRA publications lost the best writer they ever had.

I still re-read Finns "7Mag" article at least once a year. I have all of Jack O'Conners Peterson's Hunting articles except the 30-06. Took a while to collect those. I loaned the 30-06 article in the magazine out and never got it back, my brother still denies it.

Doc

What's it gonna cost me to have one of you boys shoot me a photo copy of that article?

Absolutely love Finn's work, the guy just makes sense. But, I'm not the biggest fan of the 7mm Magnum. For anything I do, I've found the .270 will do it just as well as the 7mm Magnum with less recoil, lighter bullets, less powder and less pressure variation.

Now don't get me wrong...If I came across a very cool rifle that was chambered in 7mm Magnum, I wouldn't pass it up. It's a good round.

If you had by chance read the article, you'd find out that Finn did not own a 7mm Magnum. He borrowed a rifle for the article, and in the article he stated "I do not own a 7mm Rem. Mag, and probably never will." He goes on to explain that he did not take long, risky shots, so probably would stick to the .30-06 and rounds like that.

As a matter of fact I do not believe he ever did own or even hunt with a 7mm Remington Magnum. He did like the .280 Remington, partly because he'd used a 7x64 extensively in Africa, and the .280 and 7x64 are quite similar rounds. He was also quite fond of the .30-06.

As a matter of fact, after Finn moved to Texas from Kenya, he tried a lot of American cartridges, because he was a rifle loony and never had a chance to try many different rounds in Africa. (There were strict limits on the number of firearms you could own, and handloading was outlawed.) But he found that many cartridges Americans liked (or that some American hunters considered essential for some uses) were over-powered for his use. He tried various magnums, especially the .300 and .338 Winchester Magnums, but toward the end of his life was hunting a lot with the .257 Roberts (for deer, pronghorn, etc.), and for larger stuff using the .280, .308 or .30-06.

I always admired Finn a great deal. He seemed very practical. John's information in the above is probably a good indicator of why I feel as I do about Finn. I shoot an 06 and my son shoots a .280. I would vote for anything that Finn wrote being made available. On top of his knowledge and writing, he just seemed like a genuinely nice man. I wrote to him a couple of times and his replies were prompt and friendly. Wish I could have met him.

To all: Just a friendly reminder that there are two new Aagaard books out. One from Wolfe and one from Safari Press.


Finn Aagaard - Selected Works
Finn Aagaard
http://www.riflemagazine.com/catalog/detail.cfm?ProductID=874

AAGAARD'S AFRICAN ADVENTURES
Aagaard, Finn & Berit
https://www.safaripress.com/product.php?productid=678&cat=0&page=1

I miss Finn.........

-Bob F.

nyrifleman-pm me your addy and next week I'll get a copy off to you.

Dober

I just bought the Limited Deluxe Signed Edition of "Aagaard's Africa" and two audio CDs of Finn speaking about rifles and hunting directly from Berit. She's a wonderful lady. Thanks...Bill.

That was great & classic writing of real, honest substance, and written from the perspective of much experience with the cartridge in question: Testimony that was earned the hard way, and not on some sponsored, overnight wunder-hunt; the type of which I really don't have the stomache to read much of any more.

It wasn't some "rifle and cartridge of the month club" marketing effort, and no appalling, incomprehensible, atrocious "take-it-huntin'-and sight-it-in-on-the-critter-yer-huntin'" bull$hit, either.

With a few notable contemporary exceptions, I miss the older writers like Bowman and Aagaard a great deal.............

AD

I hope they were not part of the marketing decision to publish the early data at velocities equalivent of a 7 STW.

no and they go over how that happened i believe in the article

That's because Finn had a whole lot more common sense than most loonies.....

Dave

You've got that right.

Finn is the guy that said he couldn't honestly tell any difference in killing power between a 30-06 and a 375.

Kinda like that Scandanavian moose study showed...

Hit 'em right - they die, hit 'em wrong...trouble

Simple.

Norwegians can always be counted on for good sense.

"As a matter of fact I do not believe he ever did own or even hunt with a 7mm Remington Magnum. He did like the .280 Remington, partly because he'd used a 7x64 extensively in Africa, and the .280 and 7x64 are quite similar rounds. He was also quite fond of the .30-06." MD

Finn shot his 7x64 out, and had it rebarrelled to .280. and loved it.
As for the two CD set "On Africa", I listened to it on my trip west, and will listen again. I wish I could have sat across the table from the man.

"Even today, as it always has been and ever will be, it is not the rifle or its cartridge that matters so much, but rather the skill and knowledge of the rifleman-hunter who is using it."
--Finn Aagaard, "Aagards Africa - A Hunter Remembers"

Not sure it can be said better than that!

Amen.

Really enjoyed both of their writings.

M70M,

Can you please tell us more about this and how to contact her?

$bob$

Folks,

A little googling found this...

http://fieldandstream.blogs.com/gunnut/2006/05/the_real_deal_p.html

Reading the blogs below I found where Berit Aagaard wrote about her book and the CD's and her contact information is included.

The blog entry is dated Jan 8, 2008.

$bob$

Allen: Goes without saying. Some of todays writers are very good; but some of the guys that get published today just have not done very much hunting or shooting at all. One guy I read recently extolled the virtues of the 270 WSM over the 270 Winchester(as if he knew) and later said his experience with the 270 win amounted to carrying it one time on a deer hunt, on which he shot nothing.......

Neither Bowman nor Aaggard would even have mention such a thing. You could take what these guys wrote to the bank.....there is so much pure applesauce published today it's funny sometimes.

Hi. I will send PM to you as I am not comfortable listing her email address without her permission. Thanks...Bill.

I gotta agree with BobNH on this, most gun/hunting writing today is by guys whose real bush experience is minimal and their "hunting" is done in fenced enclosures assisted by "guides". Even the few that have hunted BC, for example, have been led to their "trophies" by guides told by radio from the outfitter's spotter plane where the Elk, Sheep or whatever is, I have SEEN this a number of times.

So, when some gunwriter starts telling me what poor choices my cartridge-bullet combos are in the land where I have over 50 years of total bush experience or how many animals, ie, a "truckload" he has killed on his "safaris", I just laugh. Milek used that term all the time, yet, it took this "expert"several shots to drop a Moose near Atlin, BC, on an industry-sponsored "hunt"....what a pathetic joke, IMHO.

I will still read "Rifle" and "Handloader", but, they are not what they once were and my interest is fading fast. ANYONE can whack a few hundred African antelope, etc., etc. in a fenced enclosure,some of these wizards need to try backpack hunting alone in BC, AK, the NWT or Yukon and THEN tell we mere mortals, aka "churners" according to that pompous blowhard, Scovill, ALL about "hunting".....bet a few here agree.

So now we learn that if you can't throw a backpack on your back and hunt alone in the Canadian wilderness that you are a pompous blowhard?

Knuckle dragging, hairy chest thumpers unite!!! There is hope after all!!!

$bob$

LD,

Seems one has to back pack hunt to be the final authority on just about anything? Use the ignore button.

No, that was not my point, I was referring to an editorial by Scovill in which HE called those of us who discuss gun-hunting related issues on this MB, ...churners... Maybe you find that an acceptable comment from a guy who DOES hunt with guides and seems to NEVER hunt alone in Alaska, say, where he COULD, if he so wished, but, I don't.

I also did not say that YOU should not read the mags./writers that Bob and I seem to find rather questionable in many respects, simply that I am pretty bored by contemporary gunwriting and gave examples of why.

I realize that wilderness hunting is not for everyone, it is the writing/posting of opinions on it by those who do not and never have DONE it, that I find foolish. Seems to me, that if someone wants to make a statement on something, they should base that statement on personal experiences, whether dealing with an AK/BC Grizzly or a Florida Diamondback and that is my point. Capiche?

S99, PLEASE DO ignore me, your drivel is typical of your level of experience/knowledge and I would PREFER that you did not respond to my posts.

I gotta agree with BobNH on this, internet posting today is by guys whose real bush experience is minimal and their "hunting" is done with a keyboard with nothing more than a fe kb of text to prove or explain it...

Yup, it really shows when some talk about rifles they have never owned and places they have never been or ever will get to; these kinds of guys often live in suburban areas they call "wilderness" and frequently call themselves, "mountainmen".

Fortunately, with a few exceptions, the guys here actually do what they talk about and the internet self-styled "experts"so typical of some forums are few, but, there is some spill-over.

Too bad, that more younguns do not have the opportunities that I and my contemporaries did as hunting is dying here in BC with only half the resident licences sold now as was the case when I started. But, WTF, times change and there is still lots left for those of us who go out as my buddy and I did last Sept., in the Chilcotin for a week under a tarp, in the snow....NO sheep seen, tho', wilderness hunting ain't like flatland ranches with tame "game".

So far, I have two guys coming to BC this summer at my invitation to go into wilderness areas with me for a week each. Trips like this go for big bux when guides I know take people in, but, these are 'net friends whom I will enjoy sharing BC wilderness with and showing some wildlife to.

There is another poster here from the US who is working on going sheep hunting with me next year in northern BC; this will save him a BUNDLE of $$$$ and he will be a good companion, hopefully his professional schedule will allow this to happen as I can provide a much more pleasant trip than his last Canadian sheep hunt.

One of the great things about the 'net, is that you can meet people here whom you would otherwise never get to know and make new friends of guys with similar interests and whose knowledge complements your own. This is why I enjoy this so much, even with the odd character who tries to build his own "rep"by denigrating others.

I would guess that MOST here agree with this and that may be why I get a dozen friendly PMs every week plus phone calls from the US, it's nice to be able to help people who are worthwhile, as most here are.

In case you missed it, I would read the article John Barsness wrote on the 280AI in Handloader 251 (latest). He uses the term "churners" (and has in the past as well) to describe all rifle looneys (himself included of course). This would encompass every one that owns more than a 30-06, 12g and 22LR by my estimation...even Mr. Scovill.

I doubt that Scovill dreamed the term up on his own.

Kutenay:Amen to your comments on the good folks here!!

Now don't anybody flame me here if I've maybe been misled by what I've been reading for 15-20 or so years, but that guy Walt Prothero, who has been writing about his hunting for quite a long time, seems like a very experienced guy who has logged a lot of wilderness time; by himself or with companions in Alaska,mexico,etc. He has hunted guided quite a bit lately, but hell you have to in Asia/Africa, etc. where he goes....

Anyway I enjoy reading Prothero's stuff

djpepper,

I first heard the word "churners" was from my buddy Brad Ruddell, who works for Weatherby. Brad uses it to describe the people who constantly buy and sell firearms, often trying everything new and enjoy that aspect of the shooting game. And I believe I said that in the article you mention.

I mentioned this to Scovill one day on the phone, and the next thing I knew he had used the term himself in an article, but in a somewhat different way than Brad did, that I have never been able to quite pin down.

Brad's point was that "churners" are the people that actually provide the profit margin in the shooting sports. If not for them, the industry would be in real trouble and we'd have a MUCH smaller array of products to choose from, whether firearms, bullets, or boots. I suspect he is right.

Kute,

You're absolutely right, but the reasons for the trend are many. When I started out writing 30-some years ago, the magazines actually looked for writers who lived in rural areas (which were far more abundant back then, both the rural areas and writers who lived there) and hunted and fished. If a writer went on a trip beyond his normal haunts, it was often paid for by the magazine, instead of an advertiser. Consequently there were an awful lot of hunting writers who actually hunted on their own, and many who were also guides.

Eventually, however, there came a trend for manufacturers to take writers on hunts, hoping for stories. Things did not change overnight, but today the trend in magazines is to hire writers who may have killed a few whitetails, and then send them on "industry" hunts to gain experience. Some of these guys actually begin to think they are real hunters, when many can't even gut and skin a deer. They also tend to take this hunting as perk of the job. In fact, one manufacturer I know well says that these days he is besieged by writers who ask, "When are you taking me on a hunt?"

On the other hand, it is becoming harder and harder to hunt on your own in many places. John Nosler used to hunt British Columbia every year more or less on his own, the reason he got to kill 30-some bull moose in that province alone. But now it is mandatory to hire a guide/outfitter, and that opportunity is gone. In fact, it is hard to find places anymore where somebody can hunt even caribou on their own, if they're not a resident. Alaska is about it, but the percentage of charlatan "drop-camp outfitters" is rapidly discouraging the practice. You can hunt in Quebec on your own, but only out of a camp with a "camp manager" present.

But it is still possible to do a lot of DIY hunting in other places. The present state of the "hunting magazines" is one reason I still make it a point to do more than half my hunting in Montana. Once in a while I hunt with an outfitter here (though I have also done some guiding for at least 3 of these outfitters), but mostly it is on my own--and on public land. In fact, ALL the game my wife and I took in Montana this year and we hunted a LOT) was on public land, or private land enrolled in the state Block Management system, where anybody who signs up can hunt it. I know some other writers who do this too--but they are becoming scarce, and none that I know are much under 50 years old.

It is also the reason that very few of the features I run in SUCCESSFUL HUNTER involve industry hunts--and then only if the hunt itself is a good story. Mostly I try to run stories by writers who actually hunt on their own, or guides themselves.

OK. My two cents. I post here for two reasons. I want to learn things from others that will make me better at hunting and shooting. And I want to share what I've learned and why I believe what I do.
For that reason, I don't indulge in personal attacks nor do I ever suggest that anyone post a certain way or not post at all.
The reason for this is very simple. Even people with limited expereinces can, sometimes, pass on to me something I need to learn.
What has this all got to do with the 7mm Magnum and the authors cited here ? Simple. My sources of information back when the 7mm Magnum came out were limited to gun magazines and gun books. As I got more experience with these, I discovered alot what I read wasn't worth much. But some authors, like the two cited here were worth reading in everything they wrote. It's even better here. We get world class writers and world class hunters. We get people like Savage 99 with whom I often clash on the subject of some optics. But I can assure you that he, just to use as an example, is a real gentleman and well woth listening to. We've talked several times on the phone. I consider him a friend. We are richer because of the wide variety we have here. Much more so than just reading the few select authors that are the real thing. E

E - well put. Best, John

I have Finn Aagaard's book on rifles and cartridges. In it, there are stories both by Finn and Les Bowman on the 7MM Mag., a great man (both of them were). It makes for some very good reading. Thanks...Bill.