Awhile back there was a discussion of anti-coppering agents in various smokeless rifle powder, and the subject of Ramshot powders came up. I had been told some years ago that TAC included such an agent, but somebody else had apparently been told that was incorrect.

So at SHOT I asked Doug Phair, president and owner of Western Powders, about it. He wasn't entirely sure, so went home and did some investigating and found that yes, TAC does include an anti-coppering agent. The rest of the line of Ramshot rifle powders doesn't, but they are looking at adding it, and will let me know if and when they do.

Thanks, JB. I went to their booth, but could never pry even a moment of Doug's attention.

I knew it, I knew it, I knew,.......OK, just a hunch.

Been using it quite a bit since your post on it last Summer or so ago. The more I used it, the more convinced I became.

Thanks, now I knew FOR SURE, !!!

P.S., hope it works in other powders!!!

Good to know JB, thanks for clarifying this.

Rocky,

Luckily, I got to know Doug some years ago, when Ramshot powder was new, so we stopped to chat when we ran into another at another booth. I would be happy to introduce you two at the next opportunity.

It was good to meet you in Sin City, and put a face on the name!

Thanks for checking into the TAC powder. Did Doug Phair mention what the decoppering agent in TAC is? Was it a tin or bismuth compound?

You, too, JB. I have met Doug before. I'm sure he would have remembered me, if he could have seen me jumping up and down at the outside edge of the mob surrounding him...

Made me wonder if he weren't announcing some new whizbang powder - or handing out free hogsheads of samples!

pjf,

Yes, he did, and he prefers that I not divulge it.

Rocky,

Or maybe it was just a bunch of powder groupies?

They did announce a new muzzleloading powder, one that supposedly eliminates all need for cleaning. Doug is sending me a sample to try out.

Powder groupies? Hey, I'm a burned out kernel!

JB, I'll wait until the embargo is lifted - or maybe drop a friendly note to Doug.

I had this on my list too because it is harder to buy BP or substitutes in Southern California, and it takes an outfit with real distribution fetch. I figured Western Powders to fit that bill. The other substitutes besides Pyrodex and H777 are flashes in the pan (pun intended).

I talked with Shawn Kelly Western's National Sales Manager about sales stuff, and took away a brochure on Blackhorn 209 (one of the few things I drug back to the room), and I got it out and read it last night in response to this thread.

They say Blackhorn 209 is to be used with tight-fitting saboted bullets between 180 and 300 gr (> 350 gr weight not recommended). Too bad as we can't use sabots in Colorado and Orygun and qualify for the ML seasons.

jim

Mule Deer,

Do you have the name of the Belgian military powder from which TAC is derived? We can probably get the MSDS for that powder and see if the decoppering additive is listed.

I have the MSDS for Ramshot powders. It is not specific for TAC. Rather, it covers Zip, True Blue, Enforcer, X-Terminator, TAC, Big Game, Hunter, Magnum, and Competition. The ingredients listed include:

Nitroglycerin
Dibutylphtalate
Ethyl centralite (diethyldipenylurea)
Potassium Nitrate
Diphenylamine
N-nitrosodiphenylamine
Graphite
Nitrocellulose

Nearly all of these ingredients are described in this Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder

Unfortunately, none of the ingredients listed in the Ramshot MSDS are traditional decoppering additives, such as tin, bismuth, or lead. I�m not sure if an MSDS must declare decoppering additives. The Winchester MSDS and the Hodgdon MSDS both list tin. The Norma MSDS lists bismuth. Lead is being phased out as a decoppering agent.

I don`t know what "decoppering" agent is used in TAC but I know that in some Euro produced powders e.g. Bofors 11 - which is Norma 203B - which (within batch limits) is Alliant RL15 - the anti coppering agent is up to 4% Wismut-III-oxyd / Bismuth-3-oxide.
Lead and tin (wires or foils) are/were common only in artillery powders. Sometimes bullets are/were surface tinned to do the de-coppering in high rate automatic guns.

The bad thing: "Civil" powders very often are only the poor leftovers of huge mil production runs.
Blendung/canistering of civil powders often is the reason that the mixture does not content (enough) anti-coppering agent so it`s presence is never guaranteed (that's why it is not listed on the container).

As stated above, Doug Phair told me what the de-coppering agent in TAC is, but asked me not to make it public.

I had been told some years ago that TAC included such an agent, and was also very clean-burning, and from my tests have had no reason to doubt it. Among others, I have fired a .223 Remington using TAC handloads 500 times with out cleaning--and at the end less than a dozen patches of Montana Extreme cleaned out what little copper and powder fouling there was in the bore. Accuracy never deteriorated during the text either, though admittedly this is an exceptional bore.

I got an uncle like that . . . .

BMT

"As stated above, Doug Phair told me what the de-coppering agent in TAC is, but asked me not to make it public"
I wonder if he even knows what a decoppering agent is.

I am tempted to post something here other than a real answer, but I won't.

Yes, he does.

Now what would compel you to make a comment like that. I think it's very clear from the context of JB's posts, that he knows exactly what he's talking about.

One could find a chem man, send in TAC to run a sample and see whats in there that could be decoppering. If its that dang important to know.... Too much bells, whistles and mirrors for me.

THe IMPORTANT thing is if it works, who cares why? Same way I do load develpment, if it shoots knots at 600, then I don't care if its the right neck tension etc.... just that I found the answer and will use it....

Jeff

I will - .000000000000000000000000000 to the tenth question, .

I had originally posted the question about Norma 204, and my observation that loads using it do not metal foul the bore.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...&topic=0&Search=true#Post1856793

Have noticed it in several barrels, but especially a Stevens 200 in 300 mag that now has more than 200 rounds down the barrel and no apparent metal fouling. Have never used any ammonia based cleaner. Just a quick swab with Kroil after each shooting session, and back into the safe.

Appreciate the further info on this.

Ted

A TAC testimonial, while others giving some of theirs:

Adopted old Savage 22/250 (before all the newer changes) to replace my old Swift. It fouled enough after around 50+ rds with 3 well tested powders. It would started wandering the outside of line of 1 moa circle. This after approx. 300 rds. through it. So pretty sure wasn't a break-in situation barrel. Those loads were sub moa in that barrel also.

Tried the TAC last year, or whenever MD posted the previously mentioned info on it. Found the magic load, have cleaned it twice, mostly due to worry about corrosion. Very minute copper fouling. This time it is on 3 boxes of 50 rds, 30rds. left in third box, and just checked it off bench last week during windless day (well semi-windless). 3 touching @100 from cold barrel. 'Yote killer for sure, and can thread the needle through tangles.

This time it ain't getting cleaned until it pukes. Those Savage barrels are cheap to replace anyway, grin!!! That TAC sure saves a lot of manual labbor, grinning again!!!

Yukoner,

Black Hills Shooters Supply (800-289-2506, [email protected]) will be glad to send or fax a copy of the Norma 204 MSDS to you. You will find bismuth (III) oxide as one of the ingredients. Molten bismuth combines with copper to form a brittle alloy that can be easily removed from the bore. If Black Hills is busy, I can scan a the fax of the MSDS and email it to you but try Black Hills first.

Is Ramshot�s decoppering agent non-hazardous by Federal standards?

Decoppering agents, such as bismuth and tin compounds, are listed in the MSDS of other powders because by Federal standards, they are �hazardous:�

� The Norma 204 MSDS lists bismuth (III) oxide as �Harmful by inhalation, in contact with skin and if swallowed.�

� The Winchester MSDS ( http://www.wwpowder.com/data/propellants/msds/index.php ) states that tin dioxide is a hazardous substance and lists exposure standards.

I admit that bismuth and tin have low risks when compared to other ingredients in gunpowder. Nevertheless, should the lack of disclosure imply a guarantee of safety?

Did something get lost in the translation here? I hope so. JMO, Dutch.

Wow...maybe you should call Ramshot and explain it to them.

If you had actually ever dealt with them either via e-mail, telephone or in person you would know they are some of the most helpful and knowledgeable people in the industry.

Travis.

Dang interesting thread, JB. I missed the original post last year about this de-coppering agent in TAC.

I've been looking at the mess in my M4's bore the past couple days. Yesterday and this morning I attacked it with bore brushes, copper solvents, etc. Much as I've been pleased wtih the accuracy of my Varget and WW748 loads, after reading this thread I went down to my local gunshop and bought a canister of Ramshot TAC, and I'm gonna find a load that works in my rifle with it.

Here�s some more decoppering trivia in case you are interested:

� The Navy does not believe that tin is an effective decoppering agent and prefers bismuth ( http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA307250&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf ).

� The Navy doubts that decoppering occurs when a brittle copper alloy is removed as a solid by a successive round. Instead, the low melting point of the alloy allows it to be removed as a liquid by the next round.

I happened upon this list of possible decoppering additivies ( http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?WO=1996%2F18862&IA=WO1996%2F18862&DISPLAY=DESC ):

Again, I�m no expert on this subject. I am interested in it because I was talked into purchasing an Outer�s Foul Out 3 electrolysis kit to remove copper deposits in my bore and into using Ultra Bore Coat to coat the bore. Then, perhaps, I will be ready to use a smokeless powder that does not have a decoppering agent (or so they say). If that doesn�t work, it�s back to cleaning rods and elbow grease.

As for Ramshot, I still have the 12/18/07 email from Don Phair stating, �There are currently no Ramshot powders with anti copper agents.� I hope that he's generous with finder�s fees and can provide an updated MSDS.

Yeah, that is the reason I asked Doug about it at SHOT, because I had indeed been previously told (several years ago) that TAC did have a decoppering agent.

When I asked Doug at SHOT about it, his immediate answer was no, but then we batted it back and forth a little, and I reminded him of what I had been told a few years before. He said he'd get back to me after SHOT. Shortly after I returned home I got an e-mail from Doug stating that he had TAC did indeed contain a decoppering agent, but that none of the other Ramshot powders did right now (though they are considering adding them).

So that is the latest information I have, from a couple of weeks ago.

I can't wait to read your next article, Mule Deer. After getting the "down low" on copper fouling, I'd like to see how Vihtavouri minimizes carbon fouling (so I'm told).

An old dog like me doesn't like to get my hands dirty any more. I've been avoiding copper dissolvers and auto grease since one of my sisters slowly died of cancer. They were identical twins, so this was environmental, not genetic.

Yeah, I feel the same way, one reason I have been experimenting with Ultra Bore Coat considerably. I do believe that with the newer powders, plus products like UBC and better barrels, we are on our way to not have to clean bores very much at all!