I bought a cool little M38 that someone has sporterized, and thought there is no finish on the metal at all and the issue straight-grip stock is really dark and in need of a refinish, it has the bolt correctly bent, D&T'd, with Weaver bases, the trigger pull has had some work (do not know poundage) 20.5" barrel is free-floated from the barrel step forward, and the barrel mirror-brite! hey, I got this OTD for $60!!!! The guy said that he bought the shop 5 years ago, and that it was there then, and has been there ever since. I already have brass on the way, and was thinking that a low power fixed or variable like a Leupy 1-5X or at most a 4x would make a very fine low-recoil deer carbine for hunting der in the 150lb class out to maybe 175yds at most.

Can't wait to shoot it - anyone have experience shooting or hunting with this little cartridge?

iambrb-

There was a recent thread on the 6.5x50 in the Reloading Big Game Rifles forum in December 2007.

I think THIS LINK will take you there.

As a followup to that thread: Some posters on reloading forums on surplus rifle boards describe another trick to minimize the problem of bulging 6.5 Arisaka cases. It involves wrapping a band of scotch tape around the circumference of the case just ahead of the extractor groove, before initial firing. This allows the case to expand a bit, but it doesn't all happen on the weaker side of the case. Warning: I've never tried this, and don't know whether it works as described.

It sounds like a nifty rifle. Good luck with it.
--Bob

--Bob

My love affair with my dad's old Arisaka is at least part of the reason for my continued interest in firearms today. When I was of the age counted in single digits, my dad introduced me to the gun and told me that it could be taken apart (field stripped) without tools, but he didn't remember how to do it. We worked at it until we figured it out. I still remember today, as verified recently at the "used" counter of a local gun store. At that early age, it was a matter of great pride for me that I understood the workings of this rifle and could disassemble and reassemble it in seconds. Occasionally I would beg my dad to take me to his room and let me disassemble "the Jap" to reaffirm my understanding of the rifle, my relationship with my dad, and myself. These are some of my fondest memories of childhood and my father.

The rifle was brought back from WWII by my father, who was in the U.S. Navy. He said it was in very rough shape at the beginning, until he sporterized it himself. By the time I came to be, the rifle's stock was heavily sanded and refinished, the top wood removed, and the barrel shortened. Interestingly, the crysanthimum [sp] mark on this rifle is not defaced.

A couple years prior to my coming of legal hunting age, my father took the rifle to a gunsmith named Joe Sisal of Ithaca, MI to have open sights installed and be checked-out before firing. My dad always told me that some of these rifles were booby-trapped by the enemy to blow-up in the shooter's face, and he never fired it, so he didn't know if it was safe. When we picked-up the gun at the gunsmith's, there was a box of Norma ammunition with 156 grain bullets and with two fired casings in the box. The rifle then wore new Williams brand sights - a WGOS rear with square notch, and a ramped bead front. After firing the rifle at home, we determined that it did not shoot accurately enough to hunt with (the bore is very worn and dark). Even so, my love affair with that rifle and it's simple design and function continued.

When I attended small arms repair course AIT at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, the knowledge gained in part from "playing" with "the Jap" through the years served me well. I had a spotless record on the P-range, which means I experienced no weapon test-fire malfunctions after my first attempt at diagnosing and repairing multiple weapons with known defects. These included rifles, pistols, and machineguns. We also learned to repair mortars and shotguns but they were not test-fired at the P-range.

Another skill that was taught to me by my father was how to shoot. He had an old Winchester semi-auto 22 (forget the model) that was fed by a tubular magazine, and loaded through an angular hole in the side of the buttstock. Not often, but on several occasions, my father took me out behind the house with the rifle and a box of the cheapest 22 ammo he could find. There we would shoot at bottlecaps from a range of about 10 yards. The small bead front and U-shaped notch rear sights facilitated taking a very fine bead on those caps, and hits came regularly. Years later, I applied what I learned from my father, and some new "knowledge" learned from the drill sergeants, and qualified as Expert on my first attempt in basic training at Ft. Dix, NJ.

Thank you for inspiring the memories. I apologize if the information in this lengthy post was not what you were looking for. I still have "the Jap" and a box of Norma cartridges. One day I will dig it out and shoot it again. Then, with renewed perspective and continued learning from a lifetime of shooting and reloading, maybe I can contribute something of worth to you. As always, have your old warhorse rifle verified safe to fire by a competent gunsmith BEFORE firing it.

-

Thank you so much for all of the info! That was a good story, BTW. I had no idea bout the welling of the brass. If it becaomes an excessive problem, I can use the ideas suggested, or I guess I could rechamber to 6.5-257. We'll have to see when I get her up and running later in the year

so many projects - so little time!

iambrb,I picked up a nicely sporterized Arisaka 38 a couple of years ago for under a $100 also.Someone had put a lot of work into this rifle having the barrel turned down and tapered,highly polished and blued,trigger work down,[bleep] stock and drilled and tapped for scope mounts.I shoot 120 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips over 4895 in Graf brass and I have not had any problems with the brass welling.It is extremely accurate and very pleasant to shoot because of the mild recoil.I was going to try it on deer but since it doesn't have open sights the safety is very difficult to manipulate under the scope,in fact is is a very difficult safety to use even without the scope mounted,so for safety reasons I have only used this rifle at the range and groundhog hunting as a single shot.I thought about taking it to a gunsmith to see if there was something that could be done with the safey or possibly a replacement available but haven't gotten around to it,but it's still fun to shoot.I think you like it.You should read Chuck Hawks(www.chuckhawks.com)article on the 6.5x50 Arisaka,it gives you some helpful information.Hope you enjoy it.Bob

Yes, the safety is very difficult to operate with a scope mounted. One thing that can be done to eliminate the problem is to replace the trigger with an aftermarket trigger that has an integral safety. I have seen this done on other Ariskas. With this modification, one can leave the original safety in the FIRE position and rely on the trigger safety.

If no scope is mounted, the original safety is not nearly as difficult to operate because one can get at it with the heel of the hand. Operating the safety involves manually compressing the striker spring by pushing the safety knob toward the muzzle and rotating the safety knob (can't remember if CW is safe or CCW). With a little practice, it is not too difficult.

But one has to wonder if the results of modifying an old Arisaka is worth all the work and expense. Every time I see a modified Arisaka, I wonder why it was chosen over a Mauser or some other surplus rifle. My guess is that was the least costly alternative at the time, or possibly for sentimental reasons. OTOH, my Arisaka 38 is very smooth-operating and reliable, even though it is a cock-on-closing design, and by all accounts the action is very strong. And the 6.5x50 is certainly a capable deer hunting round.

It's all good.

-

keystone/Big Red,

Whoever did mine did all the D&T'ing and the bolt bending too, but the bolt bend is not the best, so only scopes with very small ocular lenses will work. i happen to have a Weaver K3 that works well, but I think I will have it properly replaced in the near future.

As to the Graf Brass, I happen to have 50 headed my way for $25!

In looking at alternatives to the safety, I did find that Timney makes a neat trigger with side safety, and while the stock will require a little work, it can be fairly easily done, and make the gun safe, and you can buy that whole assy for about $65, but until then, one alternative is to simplt lift the bolt handle part of the way up, thus disabling the firing mech. but it is not a tactile way, and would would have to be careful


Lastly, I will be the first to say that for the expense of doing all that work, I would never choose an Arisaka or a Mauser either, as there are too many good actions from commercial makers out there that can be had for less, but sombody already did this to the gun, and I could see where the design emphasis was headed, so for as little as I paid, why not?

I have an Arisaka, and found it to be a fun little rifle. I used mine to hunt hogs in the coastal marsh. I figure if the jungles of Burma and the South Pacific couldn't hurt it, then a little marsh water wouldn't do it any harm.

PO Ackley wrote of the excellent strength of the receiver. The safety is hard to work with a scope mounted, but I found I could manage it by pushing and turning it with just my thumb. An after market trigger with an intregal safety is a good idea. Makes life easy.

There is a wide variety of 6.5mm bullets. The 160 grain round nose bullets will do rude things to big swamp hogs. That is a great 150 yard bullet. Penetration is off the charts.

The Arisaka is not a slick action for a custom rifle, but it is as reliable as an anvil. It is also a piece of history. Use it and have fun with it. Makes the best foul weather rifle I can think of. It sure is a conversation starter. You will be surprised at how many guys will tell you their father had one as a war souvenir.

I read, many years ago, of someone who used drill bits to rechamber one to .30-06. He drilled out the neck area large enough to take the .30-06 neck and bullet, but left the bore the original 6.5.

Supposedly, the action held, although it swaged the .30 caliber bullet down to 6.5. He did write that the recoil was brutal. Actually, the subject of his letter was why it kicked so much.

This is an "interesting" story, but conspicuously missing is the statement that says how BAD and how DANGEROUS is such a conversion. I know that most folks who post onthis board understand the danger, but it would be tragic if someone less-informed misconstrued this post and actually tried the conversion.

-

The was reported i9n American Rifleman many moons ago (IIRC).

Very danerous. But a testament to the very strong actions, tho.

BMT

I know how dangerous such a conversion would be, but the reason I did not add a precaution was because, if someone did something like this, I doubt if there is any precautions would get their attention.

What I mean is, if someone drills out a barrel for another cartridge, completely ignoring the bore size, chamber, new cartridge size, and everything else, what could you say to them to make them aware of the danger?

There is nothing to prevent someone from doing this.

I have three of them.Have taken deer with two.Have reloaded certainly hundreds of rounds,likely thousands,haven't kept track.
The first one is still in original military condition,brought back by my father in law,who served on the carrier Bennington in WWII.They came back from shore leave one day and found many thousands of them in a huge pile on the dock.He and many shipmates took souvenirs.I bought two boxes of Norma ammo ,and we "liberated" the rifle ,unwittingly,on December 7,1968.It proved to be very accurate with those long 156gr. bullets,even with issue sights.
Next is a mod 38 carbine,chopped back stock,issue sights removed,replaced with a sporter front and redfield peep in the rear.The bolt was nicely bent.The guy who had it had been a SeaBea,who took two of them from two of several enemy soldiers he had killed in self defense while building an airstrip.
He sporterized both of them,kept one,gave the other to his brother in law.Said they managed to bring two plus cases of jap ammo back.Made their own dies,pulled the full patch bullets and found a supply of 6.5 softpoints with which they loaded the cartridges,using the original powder and primers.He and his brother in law were well drillers and farmers in the Catskills,and shared adjoining farms.They perportedly killed several dozen deer every year on those farms,from just after the war until the mid 1970s,using only those rifles and that ammo,until they finally ran out.They both raised large families on that venizon.I acquired that rifle for $35 about 1980.
It has been accurate to very accurate with bullets from 85 grains up to 160 grains of various brands.Took two deer with it,both under seventy yards,but have shot it at targets up to 300 yds.,and if the opportunity arose,wouldn't hesitate to shoot a deer at that distance.
The third,another carbine,is without doubt the nicest sporterized Arisaka I've ever seen.It has an 18 1/2" barrel and is done in a full manlicher style.Side mount for the scope places the scope nicely over center bore.Stock wood can only be described as beautiful.It has been converted to 6.5x57,shoots a wide variety of bullets very well.Has accounted for numerous chucks and another deer,also at about 70 yds.
After having tried probably forty different cartridges for potential conversion,and having sprung an RCBS junior press in the process,I found that very servicable brass can be made from .35 Remington.No problem to do,normal cartridge lube,one pass through a full length sizing die and your good to go.
The bulging cases usually occur with Norma brass.It tends to be soft,and the Arisaka chambers were generous to allow operation under adverse conditions.I have experienced no such problems with converted .35 Remington cases,and I tend to drive these cases a little on the warm side.I found all three of my rifles seem to shoot tighter in the upper reaches of velocity,regardless of the projectile.
You may or not be aware that the barrels of these rifles are chrome lined,which adds to their value as all weather rifles.

Great story, steve1. Thank you.

My 38 had a chrome-lined bore at one time.

-

Many were rechambered to 6.5 x 57. Some were not marked. Make sure it is still 6.5 Arisaka before firing.

Bruce

I have an M38 which has been restocked, new bolt handle, Timney trigger with side safety, drilled and tapped and 4X scope. I don't think the trigger with safety is still available. The barrel is a GI barrel from a carbine. This rifle will reliably group Norma factory loads into 1.5" at 100 yards, 3 shot groups. It has nothing resembling accuracy with any 120 grain loads I have tried. With some 140 grain loads it seems to duplicate the results with the Norma ammo, but with one load it would put the first 2 shots less than an inch apart and then throw the third one 5" high. What the reason for this was is a mystery, but it repeated this performance several times over. I have since changed scopes, and I'll have to start over again to see what gives. It is very pleasant to shoot this cartridge, and it essentially duplicates the old 6.5 Mannlicher Schoenauer cartridge which was well thought of some years ago.

I have an 6.5 carbine, I bought it in the mid 1970's for fifty bucks. I first had a williams peep sight installed, did not like the peep sight so I had a bushnell four power scope mounted on the rifle, also bought a sporter stock for it. I took the Arisaka deer hunting about four times, killed a small blacktail buck with it about ten years ago, did not shoot it again untill last summer. I went to a gunshow about three months ago and purchased ten boxes of once fired Norma factory brass for thirty five bucks, can't wait to reload it.

Didn't some call the 6.5x57 a 6.5 Roberts. Mine is on the old hook safety action.
Good Luck!

I think the hook safety model is similar to a Mannlicher Carcano in strength. I don't think it is an Arisaka action.

If I'm not mistaken it is just the opposite.The Japanese built a large number of Arisakas modified to meet the needs of the Italians,and chambered for the 6.5 Carcano.Can't find my reference just now,but if memory serves me correctly there were about 35,000 of them in that contract.
If I'm correct,I believe they will feed from a mauser type magazine,as opposed to the manlicher clip system of the carcano.

How a Carcano could be confused with a type 30 Arasaka is
beyond me. It has the same metal and heat treatmentas a type 38.
good luck!

The jap navy did indeed conract to have the infmaous carcano built, but it was not poular among the troops, for obvious reasons!

The 6.5 Carcano is not popular on Martha's Vineyard either.

I believe the "Carcano" being discussed is the Type I in
6.5x50mm caliber. In my opinion it looks like a cross between
a Carcano and an Arisaka. Its actually not a bad looking rifle.
Mexico also made some Arisakas in 7x57mm with the Mexican Crest
on the reciever. Most were bought up by the Russians in WWI
I have never seen one in the flesh. Hopefully someday Ill walk
into a pawnshop and find one, but I seriously doubt it.

FWIW:

I saw a neat little peep sighted arisaka that had been rechambered to 284 win.

Thought a lot about buying it.

Always wondered about making one into a 308 just because I can . . . . .

Today, I would rechamber to 7x57.

BMT

BMT

It was the Italians who made rifles for Japan. They used the Carcno action and the magazine and floor plate form the Arisaka but did not use wrist tangs. Some say 60K were made and shipped to Japan and some accounts say l120K. They are called Type I rifles. They do not have the oversize chamber of the T38's.

As for the story about the guy rechambering a 6.5 to 30-06, couple years back I did a similar experiment for the Blevins shoot out. I used a 7.7 chambering reamer and chambered a T38 - 6.5 barrel for the 7.7x58 cartridge. But I loaded the cartridge with a 308 bullet behind a normal hunting load of powder. I have a steel pipe test chamber that I put the barreled action in to fire it. Action was fine after the shot. One should never try anything like this without adequate protection. riceone.

riceone-
At least some Type I rifles had the oversize chambers.

One of the better researched and documented articles ever published in Handloader was James Taylor's "A Case for the 6.5 Arisaka", from Number 111 in 1984. Taylor found his sample Type I had the same oversize chamber as the Type 38s he measured. My own Type I has the oversize chamber.

(It is perhaps better to say that 6.5x50 cases of modern and WWII manufacture are undersized, rather than that the chambers are oversized. Earlier Arisaka cases have a case head diameter of .455, according to Barnes' Cartridges of the World. These would fit the chambers well. My Norma cases have head diameters that measure .447, and show some bulging when fired in the Arisaka rifles I've handled.)

--Bob

Bob, I'll do a little research. I have one Type 1 and will make a chaste of the chamber and see and get back when I have time. Seems I remember that in the beginning when the 6.5 machine gun was intorduce the cases had to be oiled and they either opened the chambers up or down sized the ammo. I just wrote to Frank Allan for his input. He just published a huge book an the T38 rifle. riceone.

riceone-
If Taylor's article is correct, the ammo was reduced in some dimensions at the time the machine gun was introduced. However, the Japanese continued to chamber the rifles to the original specifications. The rifles functioned just fine with the new undersized ammunition and the slight case bulging was insignificant militarily.

It will be really interesting to find whether your Type I has the same "oversize" chamber. I've read (can't remember where) that the Japanese sent quality control inspectors to the Italian factories, and that the Type I's were held to pretty tight standards. Both nations were (and are!) capable of building arms of extremely high quality.

Thanks for your input.
--Bob

Somewhere along the line I read that in the early 20thC there was a substantial Japanese immigration to Brazil, of all places, and that 7x57 Arisakas were made for those settlers.

vigillinus-
I knew that the Japanese made a few thousand Arisakas in 7x57 for the Mexican government back around 1910. I hope you can recall where you found the information about the Brazilian rifles. Thanks.
--Bob

BS, around 1900 the Japanese tried to establish an agricultural colony in Mexico, but it did not succeed. I may have the Mexican purchase of 7mm Arisakas conflated with the substantial Japanese immigration to Brazil at about the same time and it is possible that I am wrong about the Jap rifles going to Brazil, don't recall where I read that.

They actually did both, but as Rifles have had a checkered past in South america as to legislation, the most common firearm by Japanese people living in Brazil was the little 28ga. Murata single shot shotgun. Mine even came equipped with rifle sights but not the paraodx-type rifling that I have seen in some other examples.

The 7x57's were intended for the Mexican Gub-Mint, but over-runs/etc were likley sent to brazil as well.

I'll dig this thread out of the basement in order to let vigillinus know that his memory was mostly correct.

A descriptive history of the Mexican Arisakas appeared in The American Rifleman, November 1974, p.25, in an article by George A. Wiswell.

Here's a brief abstract:

In 1910, Japanese immigrants in Brazil imported Type 38 Arisaka rifles and carbines chambered in 7x57mm as part of a program to introduce Japanese products in South America. Brazil did not need these arms, but the Mexican government did. Some were shipped from Brazil to Mexico, and are known as Model 1910 Mexican Arisakas.

In 1911 the Mexican government was overthrown. The new government ordered more 7x57 Arisakas for the army's use against further revolution; these are Model 1913 Mexican Arisakas. The Mexican government could not pay for the Model 1913s, so they were sold to Russia in 1915 for use by the Czar's army. These were delivered in Manchuria, but during shipment to the European front of WWI, some of these Arisakas were appropriated by local Siberian forces. Americans in the 1918-20 Siberian Expeditionary Force encountered some of these.

The Model 1910 is marked either with three interlocked circles, or with the Mexican national crest with a left-facing eagle. The Model 1913 bears the modified post-revolutionary Mexican crest with the eagle facing right. Production of Mexican Arisakas is estimated at 80,000.