Dr. Ken:

I recently met a man who worked as a machinist for Arnold and Vern Juenke during their halcyon days in Nevada. He has piqued my interest in the ICL cartridges, but I can't find many references.

I know that they were improved versions of the '06 and the 7x57 cases with 45* shoulders. I have seen an '06 ICL and a 6mm ICL and to me it looks as if the shoulder is not blown forward as far as on the Ackleys.

I think that POA might have written about the cartridges, but they they were competitors to his line so I wonder how objective he might have been.

I'm curious if you know any of the history of these cartridges, and have any input on their relative utility. I know that the brothers had a falling out and closed Saturn. They stopped promoting the rounds and Vern went on to develop his bullet concentricity tester.

I doubt that I'd build one although my new friend has the reamers. I'm more interested in the critical impressions of those cartridges at the time.


Thanks for any input you might have...........JimF

JimF,

P O Ackley wrote fairly extensively on the ICL line of cartridges in his "Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders, Vol I & II". The ICL line of cartridges ranged from the .22 ICL 'Gopher' (22 Hornet Improved) to the .375 ICL Magnum (.375 H&H Mag).The ICL cartridges used the same minimum body taper like the Ackley Improved versions but instead of a 28 or 40 degree shoulder (Ackley) the ICL used a 45 degree shoulder. POA gave a good accounting of the cartridges in his books. As they were essentially the same as the Ackley versions except for the shoulder angle, to say anything bad would have been "shooting himself in the foot", so to speak.

If you wish to follow the ICL line of cartridges I would certainly do so. They are certainly as good as the Ackley versions with the same benefits.

Ol' John

The Juenkes' "Improved Cartridge Loading" (ICL) cartridges were only very slightly different, dimensionally, from the Ackley and other "improved" cartridges. Their very slight dimensional differences made them no better than other wildcat "improved" versions of factory standards. In those days, with chronographs not at all common and pressure-measuring equipment virtually nonexistent, the "improved" performance of such cartridges derived mainly from the originators' wishful thinking and their cartridges being loaded to significantly higher peak chamber pressures, not much if at all from their very slight design modifications.

I couldn't obtain dependable dimensions that were precise enough to enable me to draw the ICL cartridges for my book, so I had to exclude them. I'd still like to get those dimensions -- on paper or by miking fired specimen cases -- for my next Custom Cartridges book.

Would also love to get dependable, precise dimensions for the Mashburn, Barnes, Barnes Supreme, the third Barnes line (I can't recall the name right now), Controlled Combustion Chambering (CCC), Gibbs, Eichhorn, Powell-Miller Venturi Freebore (PMVF), and any of several other old wildcat lines. The pioneers who originated them left no paper trail that I've been able to find.

Ken:

Thanks for the feedback. I'll see what I can do about drawings or at least some fired cases if they'll do you any good. I've looked at 30-06 and 6mm versions (the 6mm being the one off of the Mauser case not the 270)

Vern is still around locally here (I don't know him), but Arnold has been gone for a while. My new contact may be able to help out here.

JimF

Ken it has been a while since I have been around here, been camping every weekend since we were on the Columbia. I will send you a couple cartridges to include in your new book. These will be 338 Gibbs, 8mm-o6 imp. Ackley I think, 12.7x44. i will check your big blue book to see if there are others that I have that you have not listed.
Could you please post me the dimensions for the chamber of your 220 so I can order a reamer. As I understand it the best chamber has little or no throat. i have finally gotten an action chosen have the stock semi compleated and am ordering a 3 grove barrel 28" this week. Once I get the reamer and barrel it will only take a week end or two to have it ready to test a few rounds.
Hope to see you this fall if all goes as planned.

Jim