John
That buck in the picture on your website is a dandy- Would love to hear a few details of THAT, if you have the time.

Fred

Was hunting in southern Wyoming not too far north of the Colorado line with an outfitter who specializes in mule deer. He wasn't too opimistic because they'd had a VERY tough winter, with snow 4 feet deep in the valleys in some places, and a lot of the bigger bucks had winter-killed. But I decided to hold out for a big one anyway, as a few always survive.

Anyway, we saw a pretty good buck the first morning, within 5 minutes of shooting light, a fairly heavy 3x4 maybe 26" wide, but passed as I hadn't even had time to hunt yet. My hunting partner passed too, even though he had never killed a really good mule deer, which proved to be a mistake.

We hunted for three days after that, glassing during morning and evening, and pushing aspen patches in midday. Finally one of the guides saw really big buck, with wide, pale antlers, in an aspen patch during a drive on the third day, but the buck did not come out. The bigger bucks were coming down from the high country, using this one patch at the base of the mountain as a first stop on their way into the valley.

Anyway, the next morning we went back to the same aspen patch with 3 shooters and 3 people to push it. TWO good bucks came out, in the only direction not covered by a shooter. But we saw them both at long range, and they went into an even bigger aspen patch maybe 3/4 of a mile away. One was a high, dark-antlered 4x4 maybe 25" wide, while the other had wider, heavier, paler antlers that weren't as high.

We decided to work the same play on that aspen patch, and the outfitter asked me if I could shoot at 300+ yards, and I said yes. He knew one of the other guys couldn't, an older guy who was a repeat customer--a great guy but not a good shot, and my partner had already decided to sit on the trail back to the first aspen patch, figuring the bucks might break back the way they'd come.

The outfitter put me on the edge of a big basin on the other side of the ridge from aspen patch. Any shot I got would be long, but he said bigger bucks often broke that way. So I wiggled into a stand of sagebrush and sat there, watching.

After an hour I'd heard a few shots from the direction of the older guy. but seen nothing. Then all of a sudden I noticed the pale-antlers buck trotting away from me along a ridgetop, at least 300 yards away. I got the scope on him, using the reticle to estimate range, and by that time he was over 350, but slowing down. As he walked off the ridge and along a sidehill down toward a steep coulee I got the first dot on the reticle ahead of his chest and shot. He stopped, and I could hear the whump of the bullet coming back as he went spraddle-legged and his head started down. I missed him with a second shot, then put another right next to the first one, behind the shoulder. He toppled over then. We later lasered the shot at right around 360. He had a 27" outside spread and the bases were 5" around. He was really fat--it was October 13th--and tastes just great.

It turned out that the 4x4 with high, dark antlers had indeed gone by my hunting partner, but he passed him up, hoping for the buck I killed. It also turned out the buck I killed was NOT the wide, pale-antlered buck the guide had seen the day before. He said that buck's antlers were not as heavy but wider. So all together 4 darn good mule bucks with spreads of 25" or wider were seen, not bad after a tough winter.

The rifle used was my NULA .30-06 with a 3-9cx Trijicon AccuPoint, the ammo a Norma factory load with the 180 Oryx bullet. One bullet went all the way through, while another ended up in the far shoulder, breaking the bone.

Thanks John
To my eyes, those big mule deer are one of the finest trophies in this country. Love to see pictures of them, and hear of sucessful hunts.

Fred

Yeah, me too. The outfitter (Wynn Condict) is a real mule deer nut, and grew up on the family ranch so knows rthe area real well. After we hunted and talked mule deer for a few days, we just talked mule deer even more!

One of the big things about guided mule deer hunting, I have learned, is finding an outfitter who really understands them. Some outfitters just take mule deer as they come, along with whatever else comes along, whether pronghorn, blakc bear, elk or whatever.

Wynn knows those animals too, but his real love is mule deer. He also knew that I wasn't going to shoot unless it was a really good buck, so we worked pretty well together--and got lucky too. But I have also found that the longer I hunt, the luckier I get.

A lot of people think getting a good mule deer on a guided hunt is easy, but it ain't. I know, because I have hunted them a lot--as a "self-guided" hunter (whatever that means), a guide, and a client. many hunters still expect to book a mule deer hunt and find big ones standing around waiting to be shot. It doesn't work that way, but if you know mule deer a little and the outfitter does too, then the chances get a lot better.

I have ended up not pulling the trigger on many mule deer hunts, either because I didn't see the buck I wanted, or saw him and it didn't work out!

Overcoming the "easy game" misperception amongst tyro mule deer hunters was always a challenge when I was guiding in Wyoming. They had all read one too many articles alleging that mule deer aren't that challenging to hunt.

Not so, particularly when they grow more than three points on a side...

Dennis

Yeah, they read about how mule deer aren't near as smart as whitetails--or always stop and look back. This last implies that you're going to see them in the first place--before they see you!

Nice buck!

WB.

Thanks! And thanks for posting the photo....

He's got a little gray in his face.

So does the buck...

And that is a grand, grand buck.

Dennis

Fabulous buck,JB!

the only real deer are mule deer, and JB's description of his hunt tells exactly why. compare that story to a white tail hunt where they have a stand by the feeder LOL, kinda a joke.

I don't know how people figure mule deer are dummer than white tails, they must not have hunted them

That's a chunky son of a gun!

John,

Magnificent Buck!!!
Kudos on the shot and kill.
Outstanding narrative too, as always.

Don

Nice one John...

Tony

Nice buck, but who really shot it? Come on a .30-06 did that? Nahhh, couldn't be!

IMO, the 30-06 is still king!

cumminscowboy
I agree with you about not wanting to shoot a deer coming to a feeder. However, go to northern New England and try to kill a big whitetail buck, and you'll find that a heck of a challenge, too.
Big bucks of either species are, hunted under fair chase are tremendous trophies.
Fred

Very nice buck! That thing definitely has mass...

sactoller,

I usually end up using the .30-06 some every year, and often with the 180-grain load at the "traditional" velocity of 2700 or so. This is partly because I get assigned to "field test" a lot of bullets (this Wyoming hunt was a Norma field test) and EVERYBODY makes a 180 .30-06 load.

But over the years I have also found out that, of course, the load just works. In fact I know the trajectory so well that I've used it on animals out to 450 yards or so, and found out it worked fine. All this proves is that, once again, KNOWING your rifle and ammo is much more important than all the minutiae that we like to "discuss" on the Campfire. I'll also note that there isn't any significant difference in the trajectory of any 180-grain spitzer load out to at least 400 yards, despite all the talk of ballistic coefficients.

I normally sight .30-06's in 2 inches high at 100 yards, and that means rthe 180 load will be around 2 feet low at 400. Hold for that and you'll kill just about any big game animal, including springbok or pronghorn. On something the size of a big mule deer (or caribou, kudu or elk) hitting the vitals is relatively easy.

A multi-point rteticle helps, but an awful lot of plain old plex-tyope reticle have the tip of the bottom post about six inches below the intersection of the crosshairs. This means that same tip is 2 feet low at 400. I killed several animals at around 400 using the tip of the bottom post long before mutli-point reticles became common.

Plus, of course, I have found that a 180 from the .30-06 in the right place is more than adequate for about any non-dangerous game. And some supposedly dangerous stuff....

Congrats on a fine mule deer. It's nice to see that some mature bucks made the winter in the valley. South-central Wyo was tough this year for mule deer, and it will probably be several more before it's back to normal. We pretty much knew what to expect west of the divide since we'd had the worst winter in 15 to 20 years, but apparently it was worse in the Platte valley than originally estimated. The limited late season tags on both sides of the divide had pretty dismal results this year so it was quite an accomplishment to take a good, mature buck like that during the general season.

Kudos again on your hunt.

Aint that the truth! but I think they are both equally smart in their own right.

Great buck! Love those massive antlers.

I don't know what "normal" is for mule deer populations in that area any more. The population has been pretty low for years with liberal any deer seasons. I couldn't believe the G&F didn't restrict the season to at least bucks only this year. I saw very few deer west of the river, hardly any yearlings, and very few of the mature does had twins with them. Even the valley ranches didn't have many deer on the hayfields when you would drive through them to get to the mountains. I spent a lot of time glassing in that region in Aug., Sept, and Oct. as I had a sheep permit this year. I only saw one buck that would be anything close to the equal of John's and I couldn't get a steady shot at him so hopefully he makes it through the winter this year.

A buck like that is what dreams are made of! Congrat's.

Great deer M.D. A 360yd. shot? Are you sure you weren't shooting a .270? Phasmid, I hunted Utah's Deseret Ranch this October with two brothers and my oldest son. No bucks were taken because none good enough were seen. This on a ranch famous for big mule deer. Lots of elk though. All in all a rotten deer year, maybe the worst ever.

I heard the same story on a neighboring ranch with an equal or better reputation, ensign ranches unit, this a ranch where the tags are at least 12k last I heard.

John,
That mass in incredible, congratulations. Your fall of relative unemployment has been productive for you...lol

Martin

Actually, the "relative unemployment" part wasn't there. I was busier than normal, as just about every magazine I contacted wanted something! But I am never too busy to hunt mule deer....

John, that's a dynamite buck!

Mr. Mule Deer;
Congratulations on the fine mule deer.

I especially like the palmation on the antlers and the kickers on the top of the right side.

In your experience, when antlers palmate, is it more a function of age or genetic predisposition?

Anyway he is indeed a nice buck.

Regards,
Dwayne

Darned if I know about palmation, but it does tend to happen more in older bucks, both whitetail and mule deer--though not all older bucks. Probably it's age combined with a genetic component.

Wynn Condict and I both guessed that this buck was pretty darn old, and probably on the downhill side, but I didn't have a tooth aged so don't really know.

One thing that was interesting about the hunt is that eventually 4 definitely mature bucks were seen even after a very severe winter, a real deer-killer. These are normaly hardest on fawns and older bucks.

These bucks were all seen within 3 days, in basically the same area. The first was seen in the basin where I killed the buck, which is about half a mile from the aspen patch were 3 of the 4 bucks were seen. This aspen patch is apparently the first stop on the route many big bucks use to come down from the higher country. This brings up the notion that there's some place in that area where older deer find refuge even from abnormally bad weather.

Wynn said he always tends to imagine the life such an old buck has led, not just the winters but the predators, whether with 4 or 2 legs. I like that kind of imagination!

Mr. Mule Deer;
Thanks yet again JB for your answers and the additional story on the deer. They are fascinating creatures indeed.

I truly appreciate you sharing your knowledge with me.

Merry Christmas and all the best in 2009 to you and yours,
Dwayne

Yep...VERY NICE!!!

Nice buck! Makes me hungry looking at him. The buck has a look of disbelief on his face, must be the fact your shooting an 06 over 200 yds.

Actually the .30-06 is good out to 250 yards, but sometimes its bullets bounce off at 251.

If you use a 130-gr TSX you can stretch that to 275, maybe 280 yards. After that they'll just pencil through instead of bouncing off.

Dennis

I hunt Mulies as often as I can.I never thought they were dumb!!!!!I am guessing you have never hunted Whitetails in Big Woods.You would find out that you cant shoot Big Whitetails off of a feeder either.They also do not get Big by being Dumb!!!!

That's great mass on that buck. Nicely done.

Having never even SEEN a live mule deer even I can tell that's a darn good one. Congrats JB!

John,

Nice one!

Being from WY (Lander) I can attest to the fact that Mulies are in fact NOT dumb. Far far from it.

Might have to go down to the Southern part of the State and see what I can find now..CHUCKLE....

John, that sure is an impressive buck. Question about the scope though, if I can. Were you using the Trijicon as part of a test, or is that your choice for a scope on your NULA? I respect the heck out of your opinions, so am just curious.

Thanks, Al.

JB,
A 30-06? 180 grain bullet? The Norma Oryx is a conventional cup and core isn't it? 2700 fps muzzle velocity? Factory load? 3x9 scope? Just what kind of a rifle looney do you claim to be? Well at least you used a NULA and not a plain jane 700 sps or vaguard. Seriously, that is a great looking buck. Congratulations. It's also great to read that you can still take game with something as traditional as a 30-06 with factory 180gr ammo and a 3-9 scope. Now if you really wanted to impress that buck, a 257 STW in a pre 64 Model 70 with a 28" Pac-Nor barrel, McSwirley stock and a 6-24 Niteforce scope shooting handloaded 100 grain TTSX's should do it. No holdover for at least 400 yards.

JLM,

I lived in Lander for a year, back in the early 1970's. I wanted to stay there, but other circumstances prevented it. How's the hunting aroun there these days? I also used to fish the heck out of things in that area, mostly all the forks of the Popo Agie and the mountain lakes in the Winds.

Yeah, it was kind of a test with the Trijicon. I just got it this past summer, and mounted it on the NULA to see how it would do. The first test was of a bunch of handloads with some newer powders, and the scope worked just fine. I also liked the reticle (plex-type crosshair with a glow-dot in the middle, and some longer-range dots below) so just left the scope on there for the hunt. It worked well enough that I probably won't put another scope on the NULA anytime soon. It's a good scope, and should be, since it was made in the same factory that makes the Bushnell Elites and several other fine scopes.

But to be honest there are a lot of good scopes--and bullets, etc. What often happensis that somebody sends me a new scope or bullet to test. Soo I mount the scope on a certain rifle and shoot the heck out of it, both at targets and at game. Or I work up a load with the new bullet and shoot some "media" and then some animals.

If everything works out all right (and it usually does, though sometimes it doesn't) that scope will tend to stay on that rifle until there's a reason to take it off, such as another scope to test. And that bullet/load will be that rifle's bullet/load, until it's time to test something else.

As a bullet for-instance, when Nosler AccuBonds first came out I also had a brand-new Merkel single-shot .308 that needed to be hunted. So I got some 150 AccuBonds and with 46 grains or so of Varget the rifle shot well under an inch, at 2900 fps. I took it up to the Northwest Territories and killed a nice caribou and a wolverine. The rifle/bullet/load worked perfectly, so that's what I've used in the Merkel ever since. It continues to work just fine, and until there's a reason to switch that will be the load for that rifle.

In general what all this testing has told me is that there's a bunch of good stuff out there! Which is why I often get a chuckle out of the Campfire "discussions" about scopes, bullets, rifles, cartridges, etc., where everybody has an opinion on what is absolutely the only perfect scope, bullet, rifle, cartridge etc.

ar15a292f,

The Norma Oryx is a very good bonded-core bullet.

My .257 Weatherby (factory walnut-stocked Vanguard, 24" barrel) with its 6x42 Leupold and 100-grain TTSX's also allows no-holdover shooting to 400, and 2" groups at that range. But I admit it ain't as sexy as the rifle and scope you describe.

I actually do tend to use the .30-06 with 180 factory loads for a lot of testing. That's because whenever anybody brings out a new factory load, they always bring out a 180-grain .30-06 load. I have also hunted with the 2700 fps, 180-grain .30-06 load long enough that I absolutely know the trajectory. I've killed enough game with it out to 400+ now that I don't feel handicapped at all.

In fact one year I deliberately took a Remington 700 with a 3-9x scope and handloads with the 180 Nosler Partition to South Africa, just to prove that the average guy doesn't need anything more. And I happened to kill a pile of springbok on a cull shoot, plus a gemsbok, plus a big kudu at just about the same range as the mule deer in Wyoming. One shot literally dropped the kudu in its tracks. This wasn't surprising since the shot was at a steep uphill angle and not only took out a carotid artery but the spine and the far shoulder. We found the Partition perfectly expanded under the hide toward the top of the shoulder.

Have done much the same thing out to 450 or so with the .30-06 and various 180's on other large beasts. Which is why I also get a chuckle out of those who claim the .30-06 with 180's just ain't enough.

Well I'll be damned

It's still pretty good around here, allthou the Elk population seems to be on the downswing somewhat. Less tags being issued for the Red Desert Elk hunt for instance. I suspect it has something to do with the introduction of that pesky grey wolf..snicker....and a fairly long drought as well.

My brother in law and I both got fairly decent deer this year out by Hudson actually. His was a rather large whitetail and I shot a decent Muley, good enough to eat anyway. Hell the mulies have been bedding down just down the block from me in my neighbors yard!

Check this out, should give you an idea:

http://www.wyomingoutdoorsradio.com/hunting_2008.htm

There are archives from past years on there as well. There are still some monsters out there. They get missed by the guys that like to whiz by on their quads and prefer to hunt by just kind of stumbling into something decent ...chuckle....

Back when I lived in Lander there weren't any elk in the Red Desert to speak of....

That's a great website!

In my experience there nearly always are a few big bucks in any area, unless there is literally no place for them to hide--in which case they never live to be old bucks, or leave when they do. But after 3-4 seasons of patterning hunters they can be darned hard to find!

I spent a night in Lander on my way home from the muley hunt. It keeps getting bigger but then most places except small farm towns do. When I lived there (in 1973-74) there was great brown trout fishing right in town.

John,

Just came here. Very nice mule deer. Heavy, and thick through to the ends. Just the kind you want to take as you do wonder if he just "slipped over the rise" a year ago and is on his way down.

A friend is like you and has mule deer on the mind and would rather hunt a mountain mulie than about anything else. I have just about enough pref points for a Shiras in Wyo so I am going to apply for one of those and we'll put in as a party for mulies.

Where we would go is not generally known as a "mulie area", having few deer but some old buggers I guess. That's what we'd look for.

I like the the toasted almond color of those horns-very nice!


Gdv

Ahh Browns. Jeap, every day after school I'd roam the banks in City Park and pull them out of the Popo. Then I moved in 88 to Laramie for school, and by the time I got back our long drought had started. The river has never really been quite the same, allthou there are still some good spots up the Sinks if you look hard enough.

In fact it got SO dry around here, there were times where you could literally WALK across Frye Lake! Same thing with Boysen, you'd drive over the causeway and see bare ground and weeds, NO water. We are slowly recovering thou.

And ya, its gotten bigger, allthou the population is actually down from what it was in say 1980. They closed the steel mill up at Atlantic City back then and literally overnight a bunch of my friends just MOVED out of here. They have been replaced by wolves and Californians.....hehehehe.....

I need to pick up a copy of your reloading DVD sometime methinks and check it out!

Cheers!

JB,
I didn't know that the Norma Oryx was a bonded core bullet. Thanks for the update. I prefer the Swift A-Frame, but it is not a fanatical preference. We are blessed with a huge selection of good bullets today, and they all work well. As you say, more important is the nut behind the trigger. As for the rifle I described, that was just something I fictously cobled together from components I have read about on the Campfire forums. I have no experience with any of those components, but they sure sounded great.
Stan