I have read and heard for years that only blunt nose bullets can be used in tubular magazines (94 Win etc.) because of the chance of denting the primers and causing discharge. Has anyone ever heard of this ever happening, either with spire points or not. It seems to me that it takes a hell of a hard snap to fire a primer, and a lead tipped bullet of any point form would be hard pressed to do it under normal recoil. I am aware of the Hornady soft tips, and am not referring to them.

I've not experienced one, but a tube loaded with four or five 45-70 cartridges each packing a 400+ grain slug could put a lot of pressure on the primer closest to the muzzle in the magazine.

Some where recently I read of a magazine discharge, but there was insufficent pressure developed to damage the rifle. Once the bullet separated from the cartridge, there was enough volume available to prevent an explosion, Sorry, but I can not remember the source.

I think there is also a difference between straight-wall cases and bottle-necks. A tube full of .30-30 rounds likely has the rounds lying with noses canted down, with the tips contacting the round in front of it below the primer.

Scott

This thread will give you a few references to start off with.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=33393&highlight=magazine+tube+detonations

I have a 94 Win. 30-30 (1948) that I bought from my father in law years ago, and have never shot. He said he shot it about 10 times, and I believe it. I am not a big 94 fan, but have always toyed with the idea of loading some 130 sp or hp bullets and putting four in the magazine and one in the chamber, or even three in the magazine and have some fun with it. I don't think there would be enough recoil to cause any problems. Have any of you guys done this?

Somebody did an article once exploring this. If I recall correctly (not a sure assumption) he was unable to get any softpoint bullet to set off a tube full of 30-30 rounds. He speculated that there wasn't enough recoil, that the bullet tips did not contact the next primer in the center, and/or that the tips were not hard enough to do the job.

He was finally able to get a discharge using FMJ bullets, but only one other round went off, and that one merely fizzled as soon as the bullet popped out (as described above). A mess, but the tube did not burst.

The theory of en entire magazine of ammo going massively KA-blooie may make a striking mental picture, but it may also be a purely imaginary one.

The other side of the coin is that I don't think you'd gain all that much by loading pointy bullets. With the 30-30, I think you'd run out of energy and velocity before you made much difference id drop.

luke,

A while back Brian Pearce did an article (Handloader or Rifle, don't remember) based on your topic, sort of. He fired regular 30-30 FN ammo and pointed modern slugs fired at 30-30 speeds. He wasn't checking tube magazine safety, rather what was the trajectory/accuracy improvement. What he found was that the pointed bullet did shoot a bit flatter, but the accuracy was not nearly as good as the traditional 30-30 stuff. So looking at his 200 yard targets it was sort of hard to tell the difference.

I find the same deal with a Remington model 14 30 Rem, which has a spiral tube magazine designed to hold the point of the cartridge away from the primer of the next. It also shoots a lot better with fn/rn bullets. But it has a slower twist than a 30-30.

Just play it safe an get some factory stuff or load some Speer 110 plinkers. Why risk a good, sentimental rifle for a little plinking?

I agree with the above.

Note that the new Hornady LeverRevolution Rounds get most of their trajectory advantage through an extremely "slick" (aerodynamically) bullet.

160 grain Evolution - SD .240, BC .330
150 grain RN Interlock - SD .226, BC .186
170 grain FP Interlock - SD .256, BC .189

A full length barrel (24") and some juiced up powders (160 grain bullet at 2400 fps) help. But Hornady itself (IIRC) has stated that the bullet makes A LOT of difference.

BMT

William iorg; I did have that 2002 Gun Digest and just reread the article. I knew I had seen that somewhere, but like a lot of other stuff, I could not remember where. Thanks for the info.
Thanks to rest for your advise.

I did in fact misrememberize (!) a few things. The author of the 2002 Gun Digest article mentioned FMJ bullets, but did not test them. He was only able to get a round to go off in a magazine by hitting one with a "firing pin" in a test rig. And only that one round would ignite; there was never a "chain fire" of all the rounds in the magazine. The single fired case would split, and that was the end of the action. No burst magazine tube and very little burned powder.

Like that author, I will not recommend that people ignore the conventional wisdom against loading pointy bullets in a tubular magazine. But I think I can agree with him that damage to the gun is extremely unlikely, even if you do.

(I also re-discovered a very "Special" article on page 18 of that edition, LOL!)

I'm glad someone posted about this quandary. I have wanted to run 200gr Sierra RN bullets out of my Winchester �94 Big Bore in 356 Win., but I keep reading that the RN bullets can set off other rounds in the tubular magazine. Only FN bullets are recommended. Well, I�m sitting here looking at the 200gr RN bullets along with a box of 250gr Speer Hot-Cor FN bullets. For the life of me, there does not appear to be any difference in the actual surface of the bullet's noses/tips! The Sierra bullet�s nose/tip is equally as flat as the Speer FN bullet! I was going to just load one in the chamber and one in the magazine with the RN bullets, but I might just load-up a whole magazine having inspected both bullets. I�ll have my wife post for me if I blow my face off!

OCC, to settle your mind, just try what that author did: Prime a case and lock it in a vise. Set your RN bullet squarely on the primer and rap the bullet with a hammer. I bet you a doughnut nothing happens. Do hold the bullet with a pair of pliers - in case you miss with the hammer.

Many years ago, I think in was in the 60s, I remember reading about a M71 Winchester exploding. IIRC, in was in a Guns and Ammo magazine, and again, IIRC, the shooter was either crippled in the hand that was holding the forearm, or killed.

The caliber was a wildcat, something based on the .348 Win., but I don't remember which cartridge. I think they made this line of cartridges in .45 and other calibers.

I don't remember if pointed bullets were being used or not. The recoil of a .450 Alaskan, as I think these were known as, could have caused a cartridge to fire. IIRC, all the cartridges in the magazine fired. It might have started with just one, but beinging confined the way they were, the other bullets could have hit the other primers, something like a chain reaction.

This was a long time ago, and I just barely remember reading about it, and I think it happened in Alaska.

All I ever remember being loaded in 30-30 was round nose bullets. Never heard the term flat nose til I started handloading. I think there are a lot more things to worry about with rifles and shooting than tubular magazine incidental bullet discharge.

For those who have magazine collections or access to back issues. There was a very good article in Rifle #228 Nov. 2006 on this very subject. Some of Rocky's comments are in this article so it has probably been published before. I found it interesting as the author went to some trouble to try and blow something up.

The standard factory load for a 35Rem. is a 200gr. round nose. I've been shooting them out of my Marlin 336 for about 30 years. Never even considered it a problem. I tried a few 150gr. SP but would only load one in the chamber and a follow up shot in the tube. If you can't get them with two shots you sure the hell don't need six more.

Pretty much the same with the 307Win. The factory load is a 180gr SP that looks exactly the same as the 180gr Power Point. The nose of the bullet has its total profile directly on the primer when you line them up. I have also thought of shooting pointed bullets in my 30-30, but for the most part, they may be too hard for 30-30 velocities. In one of J OC's books, he said that he thought the 30-30 was very effective on deer in that the bullets and the rifle velocity were well balanced for expansion and penetration. He noticed a difference in killing effectiveness when Remington came out with the core-lokt and felt the earlier bullets were more effective. I have not tried the new "pointed" 30-30 bullet, but that is a 160gr bullet with a new design, and I would imagine the engineers would have taken the velocity into consideration in respect to expansion and terminal performance. Jus a few of my thoughts on the matter..

Good article in Rifle #228, Nov-Dec 2006. Bullets, Primers and Tubular Safety by RW Ballou.

+1

I would believe it would have been a lot more of a hazard when the magazine was filled with cartridges loaded with black powder. Which was the situation when lever actions ruled the roost. Then you could have had explosions, and a high probability of a chain reaction, which will not happen with smokeless powder unconfined.

Yet, I will never use pointed bullets in a tubular mag, but the roundnose bullets rest on the primer too.

Any of you want to try and then tell us? The 30-30 and its ilk are not long range to start with. Unless you use a special (Leverlution) bullet, you will deform the tip and get flyers. As for hot gas, I don't want my hand close to it, even if there is no shrapnel.

One of the points (pun intended) in the article was that with cartridges like the 30-30, the bullet tip does NOT align with the primer ahead. Because of the rim and the case taper, the tip sits (at best) at the very edge of the primer. The author had to shim the case necks with cardboard to get the tips to align with primers - and STILL couldn't get the "upstream" primers to go off.

BTW, the comment about blackpowder was VERY incisive, and probably the source of this century-long bit of "common knowledge".

I seem to remember about 20-30 years ago there was an incident of a 44 Mag Ruger carbine blowing up the magazine. Pictures were in some of the gun magazines with a warning against using FMJ bullets, I think.

Bruce

I remember seeing the pictures of the Ruger 44 blow up. Seems to me it was in the early '80's and the picture I saw was in Rifle.
All the points made re the 30/30 are probably valid. However, I would not recommend going against conventional wisdom in this case and would not do it myself. Accidents which happen rarely still happen. With guns, consequences of a rare occurence can be a little extreme.
Anyone here ever used one of the old Lee Loaders? I got one back in 1965. These tools featured a system whereby the primer was seated when the case was pushed down upon it using a punch and a mallet. The seating "punch" was dead flat and the tool made so that the primer could not be seated too deeply. Nonetheless, I had a primer fire when I was loading some shells for my 303 British. Very noisy and startling in the confined space of the stairwell leading up to my bedroom! So, primers can sometimes go off much more easily than one might hope. I recall another incident where a fellow was de-priming some cases from which he had pulled the bullets. He was simply running each case through his full length sizer mounted in his RCBS Rockchucker. One fired and the primer flew down the ram, deflected, and penetrated a couple of inches into his forearm, where it remained.
There exists some potential for ignition of a primer by a pointed bullet in a tubular magazine. Enough potential that I would avoid tempting fate. GD

I think the black powder scenario is a good one!

One of my uncles (a favorite) saw me cutting open a shotgun shell one day while I was on his farm. He inquired as to what I was doing. He was at ease when he discovered I wasn't trying to set the cartridge off. He told me about his exploit of placing a 50 cal. military round (he had "borrowed" from the Air Corps) in his dad's vice and setting it off with a hammer and punch. He told me he had decided to use a set of black smith tongs to hold the punch and why that was a good decision. The slug held in the brass and the primer went through the garage door which is made of 1/2" rough cut oak planks. He offered to take me to the garage down the road and show me to prove it.

I remember the pictures of the Model 71 in 450 Alaskan pictured in Elmer Keith�s Gun Notes column. The shooter suffered a good deal of damage to his hand. The article without the pictures is reprinted in Volume 1 of Gun Notes from Safari Press.

I remember the Ruger 44 Magnum rifle as having been loaded with the steel jacket Norma ammunition.

I am not a gunwriter and do not have access to the inside story but for those who remember the old Marlin Talk Board Tim Sundles was pretty straight forward about magazine tube �detonations� with his 45-70 Buffalo Bore ammunition and the new model Marlin 1895 rifle. There were at least three magazine tube events over a few years between 2000 and 2002 and I believe two of them involved Buffalo Bore ammunition.
Tim Sundles worked with Starline and developed a 45-70 case with a deeper primer pocket and switched to the small rifle primer � just as was used by Marlin in their 45-70 ammunition for the original Model 1895 rifle.
The problem in the new Model Marlin 1895 is due to the bulge in the left side of the receiver which allows the wide meplat, full overall length 45-70 ammunition to make the turn from the loading gate into the magazine tube.
The bulge allows the last cartridge inserted into the magazine to occasionally remain cocked and the wider meplat hard cast bullets sometimes set the sharp edge of the meplat across the face of the primer. With high pressure loads the magazine tube full of cartridge move under recoil and if the conditions are right when magazine spring brings the row of cartridges back against the cartridge stop the primer in the second cartridge will fire. I have read the primary damage has been a bulged magazine tube and a jammed loading gate. I have not heard of injuries to the shooter from these events. Some who work with high performance 45-70 loads in the new Model 1895 Marlin vent the top of the magazine tube under the barrel to relieve possible high pressure situations in the magazine tube.
My understanding is Starline was able to duplicate the magazine tube event but I have forgotten the source of that information. The last post on the subject I read from Tim Sundles was they had not been able to duplicate the event.
Buffalo Bore and I believe Garrett switched to the new Starline brass utilizing the small rifle primer seated .003� to .006� deeper � if my memory serves me well.
Early Buffalo Bore ammunition seated the primer .010� below flush with the case head and the new Starline brass with the deeper primer pocket allowed the seating of the primer about .016� below flush.
This is something for the handloader wanting to duplicate high performance 45-70 ammunition to consider.
I have read of a Marlin 1894 in 44 magnum having a magazine tube event and I have read of a 44-40 Henry replica having an interesting discharge when the follower was inadvertently dropped on a partial magazine tube of cartridges. The Henry pelted the shooter with brass fragments and this is something for the Henry shooters to bear in mind.
Magazine tube �detonations� do happen but it is a rare occurrence.

Ruger 44 mags have a rotary magazine, not a tubular magazine.So type of bullet can't be the issue there.

I admit to coming up with the black powder idea without doing any historical reasearch. it is however logical, and of course plausible.

New version (action looks like Mini-14) is rotary mag, original version (action looks like 10-22) was tubular.

Bruce

correct....had one, sold it to Dober, old version had a tubular mag.........

I remember Elmer's article "Yes it can happen" but can't
find it. What black powder would have to do with primer
firing escapes me. The French Label had a ring groove
around the primer to catch the bullet point. So they
must have worried about it.
Good Luck!

Look for the September 1968 issue.

Hawkins, what blackpowder has to do with it is simple. Smokeless powder, unless it is contained, doesn't burn well. It may even go out. That is generally what happens in a magazine tube: the primer fires, some powder begins to burn, but as soon as the weak brass case ruptures, the pressure drops to near zero, the powder gets pushed out of the way, and that's it.

Blackpowder, on the other hand, all goes off instantly. Light one round and you DO get a burst magazine, even if only one round goes off.

When black powder was the powder, primers were new technology, and corrosive primers were known to be easier to set off. That was why the non-corrosive compounds were not adopted universally when they first came to market.

Thanks for the info on Ruger magazines. this isn't really "brush gun" country, so I have only seen one of the 44's in person.

Cartridges in a tube magazine are contained. The picture
Elmer Keith published showed a lot of magazine damage, and
most likely a lot of left hand damage. I don't recall any
pointed black powder bullets anyway.
Good luck!

I'd argue that "enclosed" wpuld be a better word than contained. Cartridges are fully contained when they are chambered: there is nowhere for gas to escape except by moving the bullet down the barrel.

In the magazine, the fit is very loose, and there are multiple openings for gas escape, once the cartridge ruptures or the bullet is dislodged. It is a long way from containment.

It is plenty contained for the effects of blackpowder, which will explode even in open air. Not so smokeless. I have not seen the Keith photo nor read his account of it, so I can't comment on it. Nonetheless, I think we can say that any kind of discharge within a magazine tube is exceedingly rare, and that actual damage resulting from one is rarer still.

Again, that is NOT a recommendation to use pointed bullets in a tubular magazine. Following the standard advise is unarguably the safer route to take.

OCC, I can not even imagine how many round nose cartridges, both factory and my reloads, I've fired through five Win. 94s and two Marlin 336s, over many years. That's both 150 grains and 170 grains in various brands of cartridge cases.

Not once have I ever had a tubular detonation. Can't answer for anyone else, but I certainly do not worry about it one second.

L.W.

Exactly how much do you remeber from the black powder era?

Minnie balls have a rather sharp point from the examples I have handled. If you don't know it, that style of bullet predated cartridges.

Traditional wisdom usually has a valid basis, but we are oh so smart now that if we dont know or cant imagine what that basis is or was, we feel free to ignore it. Or, at least some of us do.

I personally like to learn from the mistakes of others. Because experience is what you get right after you needed it, and I like my fingers and hands.

I grew up on a ranch with horses and cows and machinery and motorcycles, and logged and blew stumps, and went commercial fishing on crabbers, trollers, and draggers, worked in the oil fields on supply boats and research vessels, have mountain climbed to over 19,0000 feet, backpacked and canoed in the arctic, and back packed elk and deer, and built boats and sailed them. And, I have been a prison guard for 15 years.

A half century of dangerous adventure and hard work without a broken bone or a night in the hospital. So when I say using the wrong bullets in a tubular magazine is stupid, you might want to listen, but if you dont and things dont go the way you planned, I will laugh at you.

For those of you with some sense: Tubular magazines loaded with pointed bullets, not round nosed bullets, are unsafe. The consequence MAY not be as severe now as they were in the blackpowder era, but there will still be consequences.

I have been shooting the Winchester 94s for about 65 or so years with flat nose and Rem Core Lokt RN bullets, Speer, Sierra and all the rest that have RN's and no blow up..BTW so have about 10 million other Amercians, I think thats the number of guns sold in that configuration in various calibers that shoot RN bullets.

Maybe on the internet they blow up Winchesters and Marlins, but thats about the only place besides in the minds of some gun scribes who like to make a point.

Well, I thought that's what most of us have been saying: following the traditional warning can't hurt.

On the other hand, for centuries the traditional wisdom was that if you sail too far from land, you'll fall off the edge of the world. That "wisdom" was completely wrong - but it causes no harm to sail fairly near land. Other "wisdom" said that a miasma of bad air near swamps caused disease. There is no disease-causing miasma, but staying away from fetid, mosquito-infested swamps won't hurt.

I agree about RN bullets being safe, but spire points were part of the question, and they are a bad idea.

OCC I have run both the Sierra 200s and the Rem 200 CLRN in my 94BB 356 without a hiccup. I am going to try the sponge tipped Hornadys in it.

Thanks gentlemen! I just decided to throw fate to the wind and try the 200gr Sierras this weekend. They did just fine. No problems. I really like this Win '94 XTR BB 356!