.

What are we going to see in a 30-30 lever gun to indicate excessive pressure? A sticky bolt? Takes over 65,00 PSI. Cratering of primers? Lose primer pockets? Case head expansion? Brass flow into extractor? We talk about "working up" but what are we going to see that indicates high pressure at only 40,000 PSI? If I blow a primer in my bolt gun I know that I am over 70,000 PSI and well into the danger zone. If I blow a primer in a lever gun, I assume it would take similar pressure levels to blow a primer, my gun would be in the scrap metal zone as in grenade.

So what am I looking for to indicate excessive pressure in a good tight lever gun? Case head measurement? According to Ken Waters that is a good indicator but only for matching factory loads. So what about modern lever guns and cartridges? The 45-70 and 35 Rem are well underloaded by the factory for use in weaker old guns. So how do we know when we are approaching safe maximum load levels in modern guns? A pressure gauge is the only way that I know. Not having a pressure gauge I must rely on the loading manuals and the use of a chronograph. If there is another way to determine or detect pressure tell me I'm listening.

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Back in 2002 I inherited a nice Marlin 30AS in .30-30 and first tried out a bunch of 150 & 170 gr. factory ammo on paper and over the chronograph, and kept records of it all. Then when I got my dies and started loading for it I just followed the loading manuals and chronographed all my loads. My intent was to stay within 30-30 ballistic territory and not push it too much. For woods type hunting 30-30 ballistics work just fine. When I want more velocity, flatter trajectory, etc. then I'll just use one of my bolt guns chambered for 25-06, 6.5x55, or 300WSM. But in the woods a 30-30 works just fine, except in some areas where, by law, I have to use a 12 ga. slug gun, which also works fine in the forest. One of my buddies volunteered to measure case heads for me but I never got around to having him do it as my velocities were never excessive, according to my chrono. Then I just went with the load that was the most accurate at 100 yds.

From all I have read over the years, sticky extraction will happen first in rear locking lever actions. As the receiver stretches and the bolt compresses (just a tiny bit) the cartridge expands to fit the larger space. When the gas pressure is gone, the bolt and receiver relax against an enlarged cartridge, putting lots of extra friction on the locking lugs. I believe the sticky extraction is really sticky unlocking, not the case stuck in the chamber.

Bruce

By the time you see indications of excessive pressures, the pressures will already be very excessive.

According to the many post on this forum in the past few months, there is no way to predict excessive pressures by case head expansion, blown primers or anything else. In a bolt gun, a blown primer would indicate high pressures, but how high, you wouldn't know without pressure testing equipment.

In a lever gun, a blown primer would indicate pressures way in excess of what the gun was designed for. A bolt gun will withstand higher pressures than other types, but blown primers is pushing the limits even with a bolt gun, and could very well go over the limits. A blown primer does not indicate that you have just reached the lower limit of primer blowing pressure, or if you have almost reached the top limit of the gun holding togather. Same for sticking cases and expanded case heads.

In a lever gun, you would use the same principles as for a bolt gun. That is, pick a starting load, cronograph it, and compare it to the velocity in the loading manual.

Be sure to use a loading manual where the loads were tested in a pressure gun.

So, you don't have a cronograph? Chronographs have just become readily avaiable to most handloaders, except the very wealthy, in the past 10 to 15 years, so what did you do then? For my loads, I just relied on the loading manuals, although I did pay attention to flattened primers and difficult extraction. If I experienced any of the so-called high pressure indications popular at the the time, I backed off.

And, on a few occasions, I did experience these indications. It is just my opinion, but I think flattened primers, hard extraction, and expanded case heads will tell you when you are getting higher than normal pressures--it just will not tell you how far over the limit you are.

By the same token, lever actions are a different matter. Normal pressures in a bolt action could very well be too much for a lever action, so the only thing you have to go by are the loading manuals.

One method I have used at times to duplicate factory pressures/performance: 1.Get a box or two of the factory loads you want to duplicate; 2. Measure case head diameter of new, unfired ammo; 3.Shoot a few and measure case head expansion; 4. Pull bullets from the rest of the brass and use with your choice of components for load development, starting low and working up until your case head expansion equals factory stuff. These days I don't bother with it much, I just look at several reputable data sources, compare their max loads, determine a good, rational starting point from that and shoot over the chrono until I get accuracy and speed I can live with.

bcp is right. I have pushed the limits of a Big Bore Winchester and one symptom of high pressure is lever kick. The lever will sting your hand a bit. The other is the sticky unlocking of the bolt. These symptoms will appear at well less than 50,000 PSI judging by the ballistics I obtained compared to pressure tested data. The Winchester 94 is a stretchy action that will quit working properly before you will be able to run pressures very high. I don't know about the other lever actions.

I use case length stretch to determine max loads in the Win 94. Full length sized cases will shorten a few thousandths when fired with low pressure loads since some of the neck is pulled back to fill the shoulder out. As you increase pressure the cases will measure the same after firing as before firing. I consider that as about max. Another grain of powder will stretch the brass a few thousandths beyond the unfired length but it still may be a functional and safe load. Another grain and you will probably have sticky unlocking. Primer appearance and case head expansion is meaningless. The case length is what you have to watch.

Ackley said that any modern centerfire rifle will hold
loads that pop primers. I doubt if it would be a "granade".
Good Luck

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I don't think that most lever guns will stand the pressure required to blow primers. The Win 94 AE is probably one of the weaker modern lever actions because of the angle eject slot cut into the receiver. That slot allows the receiver to stretch more than others. What does it take to blow a primer something over 80,000 PSI? I am sure that kind of pressure would cause a 94 to come apart or "grenade".

.

I played with a couple wildcat rounds in the 94 a couple years ago and that is when I decided case stretch is the reliable pressure measure. I since have come across an article by Mic McPherson in Precision Shooting magazine about how he modifies the Marlin 1895 to feed longer cartridges. He states in the article that he uses case stretch to determine max loads in the Marlin. I believe the article is in the October 1998 issue.

I have a Conrograph and use for all my loads�
To me It is only useful if you know the max & min velocity of the load in question. The problem I have is with my 450 Marlin, I would like to use the 405gr Rem bullet but cannot find any load data for it� I can use �Load From A Disk� Software but there is no cross check so my comfort level is not very high� so In short I am very interested in learn the prevailing wisdom for gauging pressure in a Lever Gun

"With a bit of common sense, and by comparing data from various sources, one can now make fairly good guesses about 45-70 Marlin load safety. But when I began experimenting with this rifle, I could find no data to use, nor any to compare to. For this reason, and because I am an inveterate experimenter with a good background in both mechanics and metallurgy, I set out to determine actual safe maximum loads in my rifle. Today, the handloader has appropriate data from several sources. All the major reloading manuals list loads using various powders and bullets. Those sources should be referred to for loading data.

For several reasons, I would like to detail my experiments. First, they confirm the prudence of published data: Test loads generating significantly higher pressure than published maximums caused measurable case stretching. Second, this technique is the only one I know which establishes safety of any load in a rear locking action. Third, this process helped me develop several particularly accurate and powerful loads. Finally, it was fun, and I hope you will find it interesting.

While it might be possible to burst or swell a barrel with an extreme overload, a more practical consderation limits one to loads far below the pressure which would result in such damage. As noted earlier, this rifle uses what is termed a rear-lockup -- its locking bolt is several inches behind the cartridge head. Springing the action will allow case stretching as some critical pressure level. At higher pressures or with continued reloading of cases at this pressure, case separations can occur. Separations can be unpleasant experiences. A case separation occuring while considerable pressure remains in the barrel could be exceeding dangerous , even fatal.

Loads below the pressure level which will cause case stretching will result in some flexing of the action and a small amount of case springing. At these lower pressures, cases wil return to normal, unharmed. This is typical, even for cartridges fired in strong front-locking bolt actions. A certain amount of case springing, usually non-harmful, always occurs.

To check for the onset of stretching, I performed a simple test. After ensuring both the rifle chamber and cartridge cases were absolutely free from any form of lubricant, I fired a series of test loads. With each tested powder and bullet, powder charge was increased until case stretching occurred, as noted by any measureable increase in case length after firing.

Clean, dry cases and a clean, dry chamber ensured that the case walls would cling to the rifle chamber. This prevented the entire case from following as the head moved to the rear. Such an eventuality (caused by lubricated cases or chamber) would prevent stretching and invalidate this test.

To ensure my own safety, the gun was tied to an old tire and a long string was used to pull the trigger. Remember: Safety is the critical point in handloading. Do it safely or don't do it all!

When measurable stretching was noted, in even one of the three cartridges fired with each charge, I reduced the powder charge by at least seven percent to arrive at what I considered an absolute maximum load. This reduction was intended to allow for variations in primers, bullets, cases, powder lots, temperature, loading techniques, etc.

As noted earlier, every tested load extracted effortlessly, even those which caused significant case stretching. Therefore, do not assume sticky extraction will warn you of the existence of too high and dangerous pressure!

Loads I settled on as maximum caused no case stretching in my rifle and are evidently very easy on the brass. With the sizing die turned out two full turns, I have reloaded one batch five times. Chambering remains effortless. To date, I have experienced no case failures of any kind. However, variations in rifles and components can alter results significantly. For this and other reasons, I make no specific recommendations whatsoever. Loads listed in this article are only given for comparison. For loading data, I suggest the Speer No. 11 or Hornady No. 3 or No. 4 manuals."

M1895 Marlin Gives 45-70 New Lease On Life, pages 40-42, M.L. McPherson, Handloader's Digest/1994 Number 13, Edited by Bob Sell, DBI Books, Inc., 1994.

It is interesting to note that McPherson's 45-70 load for the 405 grain Remington JSP with H322 using this technique is only .5 grains more than the H322 load for the 400 grain Speer Hodgdon developed with pressure testing equipment and .5 grains below the Speer No. 11 H322 45-70 load for the 400 grain Speer.

That's with the nearly straight 45-70. Stretching a bit doesn't make it tight. A cartridge with a shoulder, when stretched between head and shoulder, will have sticky extraction due to the pressure that remains on the locking system after firing.

Bruce

The best safety practice with a lever rifle is the chronograph..You know where the velocity should be, so keep it there..I have seen overloads kick a lever action bolt open and eject a case and/or leave the case stuck in the chamber. Sticky cases are for sure a good indication of high pressure..flat primers with indicaters of the extractor on the case head..

Common since and good reloading practices are your best bet, trying to extract that last bit of OK out of a lever gun is not wise, you may get away with it in a bolt gun, but not in any lever gun that I know of...Lever kick is almost always your first indicator of pressure in a 94 or a Savage 99, even the smallest amount of lever movement is time to cut back a grain.

The best safety practice with a lever rifle is the chronograph..You know where the velocity should be, so keep it there..I have seen overloads kick a lever action bolt open and eject a case and/or leave the case stuck in the chamber. Sticky cases are for sure a good indication of high pressure..flat primers with indicaters of the extractor on the case head..

Common since and good reloading practices are your best bet, trying to extract that last bit of OK out of a lever gun is not wise, you may get away with it in a bolt gun, but not in any lever gun that I know of...Lever kick is almost always your first indicator of pressure in a 94 or a Savage 99, even the smallest amount of lever movement is time to cut back a grain.

I never go beyond book max with lever guns, no need to in the first place. I also try to stay at factory velocity..Straight walled cases can be particularly tricky so use the recommended loads with them..Too many folks want to make a 458 out of a 45-70 and then brag of brave deeds done and thats downright ignorant. It is what it is.

Several years ago a friend got himself a new Winchester 1895 in 405 Win. He fired some factory duplicaiton loads and reloaded the cases maybe twice. On the 3rd go round the rifle blew up destroying the receiver and his right wrist. The cases had not been measured or trimmed. On post mortem he noted that the loads did not chamber easily and required some effort to close the bolt.
It was determined that the cases had stretched and in combination with the very tight chambers of that particular rifle the bullets were probably engaged in the rifling resulting in an unacceptable overpressure.
A small inattention to detail by an experienced reloader.
The repair on his wrist was in excess of $25,000. Left him with a stiff wrist. Not a good thing for a surgeon.

Every Marlin I've loaded for has shown primer cratering even with mild loads or factory ammo. I think it's the stretchy action but I don't know.

Atkinson is spot-on IMHO- levers of this type are NOT made to be loaded hot.

You can load a Browning BLR to bolt-gun pressures since it's essentially a bolt action rifle with a lever. Also, pressure signs will be much more in line with what you see from bolt guns, much easier to read.

Just my .02. Trying to load a decent "stiff" load for my 45/70 was an exercise in discomfort on several levels- one of which was just that reading the pressure stuff was darn near impossible. For me.

atkinson... I agree... but in the case of the 405Gr Rem bullet for the 450 Marlin I cannot find any published data... just for a 400 Gr... So there is no benchmark velocity data --- in your experience should I just leave it alone?

Thanks

T

As ANYBODY knows who is a SERIOUS reloader of 45-70s, there are several levels of PSI recommended for various models AND types of 45-70s. On this, I totally disagree with Atkinson! He knows this already... so why insist on measuring psi based on what the factories produce for the 45-70 which is notoriously UNDERLOADED!

If you want to know, temmi, what your 450 Marlin is capable of go to the Buffalo Bore Ammunition site. That goes for the 45-70 as well.

There are more than one or two manuals... and they differ significantly. Some FACTORY loads are limited to around 18,000 to 23,000 cup. But NOT Buffalo Bore! Some MANUALS are limited to 28,000 cup (psi). Others to 35,000 cup, some to 40,000 cup (psi) and others to 50,000 cup (for the Ruger No.1) and others to 55,000 psi for the Ruger No.1. Most all of this is arbitrary on the part of the various companies because of litigation fears.

To temmi:
A 1.25% difference in bullet weight would suggest that using 400 grain bullet data for a 405 grain bullet is prudent. There can almost be that much difference within bullets of the same lot with some commercial bullets. There is no reason one cannot adapt 400 grain bullet loads for use with 405 grain bullets in your 450 Marlin XLR. Look how Mic McPherson came out with the 405 grain Remington and the 45-70 compared to Hodgdon and Speer published data for the 400 grain Speer and the 45-70. Just doing back of the envelope computations based on published 450 Marlin 400 grain Speer data, I derive maximum loads of 54.3 grains for Benchmark, 51.8 grains of H322, 44.9 grains of H4198, 59.3 grains of AA2460, 51.8 grains of AA2015, 58.3 grains of AA2520, and 46.4 grains of Reloder 7 for use with the 405 grain Remington JSP in the 450 Marlin. You would be on sound footing with considering maximum velocities for a 24" barrel of 1985 fps for Benchmark, 1998 fps for H322, 1934 fps for H4198, 2049 fps for AA2460, 2021 fps for AA2015, 2013 fps for AA2520, and 1938 fps for Reloder 7. So, do not exceed either the charges or velocities above. P.O. I'm not, but these are reasonable loads.

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Some of you have climbed on you "orange create" about not using hot loads. That OK but that is/was not the intent of this thread. The question is how does one recognize high pressure in a lever gun? We should be aware of pressure signs, not to push the limit to the last fps velocity or last psi of pressure but to avoid those areas. We all like to know the maximum SAFE load level for our guns even though we may not load to that level, we still want to know the comfort zone. Some of you are echoing the conventional wisdom which says: "start low and work up" or work up a load for your rifle. OK, that sound good in theory, but in reality it is worthless. Work up to what? Work up to case expansion or blown primers? If we are not to go there then what are the early warning signs? Do we add powder until we blow up the gun and our anatomy and say, Yep, that's a sign of high pressure better back off a grain or two?

Measuring case stretch is the only reasonable suggestion that we have heard. Are there other signs or do we just blindly follow the reloading manuals? All the things I've learned from years of bolt gun do not seem to apply to the lever guns, to which I am relatively new.

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jackfish, CZ550


Thanks for the input And information (and remembering I had an XLR�. Impressive)!!!!

I will start with the Speer 400Gr Data and compare it to what jackfish gave me and the results I get from� Load From A Disk�.

I really appreciate the help you guys have given me�.

I will order some 405Gr Rem tonight and give it a go!

T

Sticky extraction has not been a good indicator of high pressure with the 30-30 lever guns for me. A 170-grain bullet loaded ahead of 31.0 grains of IMR 3031 will not demonstrate sticky extraction and yet it is approximately 1 � grains over what is now considered a maximum load. As late as the 1960�s I saw many references to 32.0 grains of IMR 3031 and 170-grain bullets as a maximum load. I shot these loads and did not encounter any difficulty but I knew they were high pressure, even then.

PRE measurements while not an indication of pressure in PSI or CUP will give a cautious handloader a stop point. For the standard 30-30 .4205� to .4210� PRE in a Winchester Model 94AE is a reliable stop measurement for me.

I certainly agree with Marc that Lever Kick is a very good indicator of high pressure with the Big Bore rifles and cartridges. I would be very concerned if I experienced lever kick with the standard 30-30 cartridge in a lever-action rifle.

I have looked at case stretch and I also agree you can use this as a good indication of pressure by measuring case stretch using once fired brass. One thing to keep in mind is the 30-30 case seems to never stop stretching in a lever action rifle and while the case appears to last forever I try to throw them away after ten shots. Even at today�s prices brass is cheaper than a hospital stay. The bottle neck cases stretch a bit differently from the straight wall cases. I have broken a number of standard 30-30 and 30-30AI cases at the pressure ring and all of them pushed out of the chamber using a stiff brush. I have never broken a straight wall case but I would imagine it would push out also. A broken case could ruin a hunt and I try to hunt using new or once fired cases.

When discussing the standard 30-30 or the 30-30 Improved I have found the best method for me is to start any new load development using IMR powder and the Powley Computer for my initial load work. I find using PRE with stop points established using IMR powders a good baseline for developing loads using other powders.

"The question is how does one recognize high pressure in a lever gun? We should be aware..."

In my opinion, there are no reliable methods to recognize high pressure indications in a lever action, other than using an actual pressure gun and/or a chronograph as suggested on these pages.

It has been proven that using the old, reliable indicaters of excess pressures is no longer feasable. Things like hard extraction, case head stretching, flattened primers, and other indicators. Some of these are indicators or too high pressures, but none of them will tell you the actual pressure. When you first see these indicaters, you might realize you have gotten into dangerous territory, but you have no idea about how far into this dangerous territory you have ventured.

A load that is safe in a bolt rifle could possibly wreck a lever rifle on the first shot, and it takes some really high pressures to cause stuck cases and expanded case heads in bolt rifles. If you have reached this point with a bolt rifle, the same load would be way past even remotely safe in a lever gun. If you were getting stuck cases in a bolt rifle, these same loads would have already wrecked your lever gun.

I used to load shot gun shells. I remember reading on a forum about a reader asking about high pressure indicators in shot gun loads. Shotgun pressures from about 10,000 about 12,000 PSI or a little more are considered safe in shotguns.

Whoever answered the question said that you could tell by examining the primer or being aware of case sticking.

For the sake of argument, assume that it takes 100,000 psi to flatten a rifle primer. Can anyone imagine what a load like this would do to a shotgun? Back down a lot, to 80,000 psi, and you could probably get away with it in a bolt rifle, but 80,000 psi in a shotgun is a no no. It is also a no no in a lever gun.

I have seen pictures of primers that were flattened by normal loads, and pictures of primers that appeared normal, but the loads were acutally excessive.

The point being, if you are trying to compare pressure readings to a bolt rifle, shotgun, or lever gun, you can't do it, because the different guns are designed to handle different pressure levals than others.

You also cannot use loads developed and proven safe in a bolt rifle in a lever gun, with any measure of safety.

I agree with 1234567, I received my 30-30 as an inheritance from one of my uncles. My reloading is 90 percent bolt guns and a couple of "gas guns", ( a Garand and an M-1A). When I got into the 30-30 thing I found out there's no real way to read pressure signs so that's why I figured on just staying within 30-30 limits as dictated by loading manuals and the chronograph. Works good for me. If anybody wants to go beyond 30-30 ballistics then that's just a good excuse for needing another rifle. As "Dirty Harry", aka Clint Eastwood, once said; "A man's got to know his limitations".

.

Good post! So the consensus of this group is that "start low and work up" is just a figure of speech and cannot be done reliably in a lever gun. "Working up" until sign of pressure are noted does not apply to shotguns and lever guns.

Thanks, Gentlemen.

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I think the consensus is to not exceed either the charge or velocity of a published load. However, it is foolhardy not to watch for the classic signs of excessive pressure even in lever action rifles.

The problem with that is, the first sign of excessive pressures in a lever gun or shotgun might be a multi-piece rifle instead of a one piece rifle way it came the manufacturer.

Or it might not. So you ignore such signs if they become apparent when one is below the maximum charge and velocity? I'm saying that even if one stays within the maximum published charge and velocity they still have to regard such signs if they show up. And they can.

�The problem with that is, the first sign of excessive pressures in a lever gun or shotgun might be a multi-piece rifle instead of a one piece rifle way it came the manufacturer.�

I am certainly pleased to report that none of my lever-action rifles have proven to be this fragile.
I am not an advocate of high pressure loading for the standard 30-30 cartridge as other cartridges meet the requirement for higher velocity and increased energy in these rifles. The 30-30AI, 308 Marlin Express and the 307 Winchester provide more power in the same package.
I have loaded the 30-30AI to high pressure for many hundreds of rounds in the Winchester Model 94AE and the Marlin 336 with no indication of wear or strain on the rifles.
I have a Model 94AE in 25-35 in which I regularly load the 100-grain Speer JHP bullet to 2,600 fps+ with no difficulties and excellent case life � I have never lost a case.

Getting back to the original question I will again suggest using a reliable software program or the Powley Computer to help establish a PRE stop measurement based on estimated pressure with supporting data from the chronograph. You will not know the pressure in PSI or CUP but you will be able to develop loads for your rifle which are safe.
By graphing your loads by fps-per grain of powder you can also watch for a break-over point where the velocity increase per grain of powder increase slows. At this point you at least reached a practical maximum for you bullet weight and powder combination.
Using these methods you will be able to work with powders for which there is no published load data with a reasonable expectation of safety.

"the first sign of excessive pressures in a lever gun"

According to what has been written on this forum during the past few months, there are no reliable "signs of excessive pressure" in any type of gun. In addition, a pressure range that is considered very high in a lever gun could very well be within normal operating pressures in a bolt gun.

And even if reliable signs of excessive pressure existed, they would be for a bolt gun and not a lever gun.

A chronograph and reloading manual is the only way to go, if you do not have access to a prssure gun and even then, if the manual gives a load for 4831 and by mistake, you use the same amount of 4895, then the chronograph, pressure range, and loading manual is not helpful.

I don't know what the effect of substituting 4895 for an equal amount of 4831 would be on the velocity, but I would imigine it would be quite a bit more than what the reloading manual gives for 4831.

For example, if your rifle has been factory proof tested for a load giving 60,000 PSI on a daily basis, and you start at the miminum load given in your manual, increasing the powder in 1 or 1/2 grain increments, there is no possible way you are going to know when you reach 60,000 PSI. Looking at the primer will not tell you. Measuring the case head will not tell you. Ease of bolt lift will not tell you.

If you have to hammer the bolt open, the case head markings are obliterated, the case head is expanded and deformed and brass has flowed into the ejecter and the primer pocket is aout 1/4 inch in diameter, and is blackened from excaping gas, then this might give a slight indication that you have gone beyond the 60,000 PSI limit, but not how far above, or when you reached the limit.

If you get all this, it is possible that a bolt rifle will hold togather, at least for one or two more shots or until you add a little more powder, but I would not count on a lever gun holding togather under these conditions.