Exactly what makes a rifle a stalking rifle? , and why?
Under what conditions would a stalking rifle be used that any other rifle would be a disadvantage ? What action types are used for stalking rifles ? I'm just full of questions ain't I ?

Mike

Stalking, last time I checked that's illegal isn't it...

Seriously, what kind of game and what type of country are you talking about?

Thx
Dober

I guess you could consider it a still-hunting rifle where you need something short,light, and handy. I have a Remington Model 7 in 260 with the 18 1/2" barrel that works good for that type of hunting. You loose some velocity with the short barrel but it's not getting hung up in the timber all the time either. The 260 tends to kill game quite well to I might add.

I don't really know what game or type of country.
The stalking rifle concept is a British/European thing , I think.

Mike

The perfect stalking rifle for deer: 30/30.

BMT

Most 'classic' stalking rifles have trim wooden stocks and shorter but notr necesarily light weight barrels. They give you for easy carry, qick handling capabiliites, and the best of them also are slightly muzzle heavy for smooth tracking and steady holds. Some of them by European makers also have single or double set triggers.

Modern ultra LTW, sythethetic stocked, short rifles also fill the bill functionally but not aesthetically. And as pointed out earlier, 94s, Marlins and other such handy rifles are fine still-hunting tools too. You can of course use any of these in a treestand or ground blind w/o violating any codes.

1B

The stalking rifle is a term from Europe and is basically a German Guild rifle, a half round half oct. barrel, slim design with lots of drop stock, and a big old scope that is mounted too high, but works fine on a stalk and a perfectly placed shot on a standing broadside animal, then you get a bloody branch stuck in your hat and back to the lodge and switch into your tux for a formal meal..:)

The term is nothing sugnificant much like a "saddle gun" or brush carbine, or any manufactured term of designation..

Mike-
Classic stalking is done in the Scotting Highlands for red stag. Usually this involves a lot of hiking, hill climbing, and belly crawling through heather. Shots at stag are usually taken from a rest, most often from 100-200 yards, and frequently in poor light and in miserable weather.

Stalkers are almost always accompanied by a gamekeeper who will select the stag to be shot. Typically the game keeper carries the rifle until the beginning of the final stalk. About any rifle of adequate caliber (legally defined as 6mm on up, with a legal minimum energy) can be a stalking rifle.

A large, heavy rifle would be a problem on a 200-yard squirm through snowy, wet heather. A caliber much heavier than a 30-06 or .300 H&H is not necessary, because the animals are about 300 lbs maximum weight, and the first shot is almost always taken from a rest at a standing animal, usually not more than 250 yards away. A rifle with a scope that wasn't waterproof would be a poor choice.

Of Americans who participate in the sport, Bob Robel has probably written the most about it with several articles in Gun Digest and American Rifleman. His write-up in the 1986 Gun Digest Hunting Annual is excellent and worth tracking down if you're really interested in the subject. He has used several rifles for stalking, including a short-barreled H&H on a Mauser action in .270, and an H&H bolt rifle in .244 H&H Magnum. Some Europeans stalk with single shots or double rifles.

Ross made a wonderful stalking/sporting rifle in the early 1900s on his straight-pull action chambered in .280 Ross. Because he owned an enormous chunk of the Highlands and was fond of hunting in them, he presumably knew what he was doing.

In sum, the definition of a European "stalking rifle" is probably as nebulous as that of the American "sheep rifle". There would likely be considerable overlap in these two types.

There are a couple of UK citizens that hang around the campfire, and will be welcome to correct any of the above.

--Bob

The stalking rifle was, in the first instance, to be suitable for stalking, that is for hunting up close to the intended game, terrain and wind permiting. To this end it had the design characteristics that allow quick target aquisition for those times that an animal may be 'junmpd' from his bed, or the intended animal that may be on the move when it is spoted. It must also have the capability to take longer range shots if the animal can not be stalked up close, and by longer range I mean 300 yards where the most sensible calibers are about 8 inches low from a 200 yard zero. It was understood that a stalking rifle would be carried far more than it was shot and some of the terrain envisioned for it to be used in would, initially, have been the hard walking hill country of Britan and later the Veldts in Africa. This was the teritory of the stalking rifle and this in turn had a deciding factor in the "typical" dimensions, weight and design that the English gunmakers of the 1920's and 30's came to as being apropriate. With increasing travel to, and hunting in, Africa and India it was also able to be, and usually was, used as the "light" rifle for Plains Game on safari where many of the custom built rifles of the time were taken for an outing. Calibers were typicaly 7x57 or as the English knew it, the 275 Rigby, up through the 303 Enfield to the 318 Westly Richards, which was a true transition caliber as with a 180gn bullet it was very efective as a light rifle but with a 250gn bullet became a light medium and was highly thought of in this roll. This was where the light rifle designation ended and the medium calibers started. These custom built Stalking Rifles as typified by those made by the firms of W J Jeffery, Rigby, Westly Richard and their contempories, had barrels of 24 to 30 inches, Short forearms, barrel band sling studs, open sights and the very best of workmanship. Anyone who has had a "best" English rifle in hand and thrown it to his shoulder knows instantly that there never was, nor ever will be, a factory rifle that can approach the quality or handling ability of a one off, hand built rifle.

So goes the opening paragraph of an artical I wrote to be published in our national guns and hunting magazine , where I take a 1908 DWM (it had already been 'sporterised')and turn it into my version of the "typical"stalking rifle. As somneone else has said Life is too short to hunt with an ugly rifle.

Von Gruff.

As one who has hunted Scotland, I'd say this is a fair and accurate statement!

Why can't a man carry his own rifle in Scotland?

I always liked to stalk rifles, particularly at small-town gun shows or pawn shops.

I was under the impression that stalking is just the term used by folks in UK for hunting

Me too!


Mike

In these situations; "poker-face" comes into play far more than stalking skills IMHO.


Travis

Merkel sells a K1 single shot Stalking Rifle with scope for $4,000 and up! Ask Mule Deer about it. He's got one.

As G.B.Shaw noted, England and America are two countries separated by a common language.

Hunting is done for foxes, on horseback, using hounds, in red coats (on the humans, not the dogs), with hunting horns, cries of "Tally-Ho", and following 2-3 centuries of tradition. (Or as Wilde put it, "The Unspeakable in Pursuit of the Inedible.")

Shotguns are used in "shooting", especially driven birds. Chasing through the gorse after birds is "rough shooting".

Deer stalking is akin to the American "spot and stalk" routine. I think it has about 150 years of tradition behind it. (Remember Sherlock Holmes' deerstalker cap?) Stalking didn't really get rolling as a sport until the Scottish hills were pretty well logged clear. The hills, bare of trees, are still termed the "deer forest".

(I've probably messed this up, so some of the fire's UK residents can usefully correct me.)

--Bob

This is one of my favorite types of rifles. Even though some have excessive drop or thin combs they are still very practical rifles and were part of the inspiration of the American Classic Rifle style.

Anyone have photos?

Very true !

Stalking in Scotland is really wonderful, particularly so in the Highlands. Late season stalking for does can be done in miserable weather and crawling in wet snow is a very possible part of the excitement.

A light rifle in 270 Winchester is the most you need; the professional stalkers who accompany the clients also use calibers like the 243 Winchester, 275 Rigby (7x57 Mauser), possibly the 30-06. Bigger or more powerful calibers are frowned upon as entirely unnecessary, but they are used to guide foreign hunters with a 300 Winchester Magnum or a 8x68 S for example.

The stalker will not normally carry your gun, but he usually is accompanied by a ghillie who will offer to do so. A classic ghillie will have a pony handy to bring back the carcass; during the stalk, the pony is left in a lower valley.

Traditional hunting estates have their own weave of tweed colors and their stalkers hunt in tweed suits with jacket, waistcoat, "plus-fours" (trousers that extend 4 inches below the knee)and a matching deerstalker cap, they also have a tie. They will happily crawl through the vegetation with their suits which are of very durable quality. The estate owner pays for the suits of the stalkers and the regular ghillies.

The stalkers are very experienced hunters and great shots, going for the neck when they cull ; other shots mean that the venison buyer will apply a discount depending on the part damaged and in Scotland you do not want that to happen.

Stalking in Scotland is a very British experience and a lot of fun really.

Dang! I saw the title of this thread and that popped RIGHT into my head, but you beat me to it!

+1 on BMT's pick. Not a "classic Brittish" anything, but just what I think of when I see "stalking rifle".

Well, the forend is a little long, and this isn't a Red Deer in the Scottish Highlands, but the concept is similar to this rifle...a 7x57

Ingwe

Nice rifle. Aren't you supposed to have a 4.5x14 scope on it?

Krapp! I KNEW I forgot something!
Ingwe

I couldn`t agree more!

And this is my nearly perfect stalking rifle. Also in 7x57 with a Zeiss 4x32 scope!

Regards,

PH

Great pics - something about them says, the guy knows what he is doing. Just might be the stag. Or the rifle. Most definitly not the tug, though...

Fabulous 7X57's guys! How about some specs on them?

Here is my mountain 7X57, the blued walnut version is in the planning stages now!

To me, the term "stalking rifle" has always evoked the image of a rifle made to be carried in the hand (not by a sling), and fired off hand; thus the shorter forend, drop in the stock, and, if a scope must be mounted, a low fixed power scope mounted as low to the action as possible.

My kind of gun porn.

Ingwe who did the stock on the 7x57? Is that a Schnabel fore end? I can't tell because of the Kudu's mane.

Would a Schnabel fore end be confusing the concept of a British/Germanic/American inspired stalking rifle? This is the last detail I can't decide on for one of my project rifles. It's on a 700 action so won't be purely classic and minor breaks from tradition are acceptable to me.

PH- Great way to show off a rifle, and it looks like a beaut!!!

PH; REALLY nice rifle and a GREAT olddddd Stag. Simply beautiful!
Huntr;cool pic, whens the blue/wood one gonna be ready?
Dennis Erhardt ( Frontier Guncmithing, Helena, Mt.) did the rifle, woodwork and all...
Tejano;The forend is basic....ebony, no schnabel...I am one of those that prefer the english over the german look...JMHO...
And oh, yeah, notice the lack on a sling.....
Thanks guys for all your responses and pics...
still can't get over that stag....
Ingwe

Hi,
The young man in the pictures is one of my son. Very good shooter and hunter!
The rifle is a beauty, for me at least! It is made with a M35 Argentine Mauser, a 60 cm (around 24 inches) Steyr 7x57 barrel, also military,new unused, and the stock is the military original shaped like the Original Sporting Mausers. It has one of the most impressive pieces of walnut I ever saw, even in expensives custom rifles! Has a metalic weding job, not only a pilar bedding, a compleat alloy bead. And shoots great, also...
Regards,

PH

Um.............

PICS!

Here's a pair of my stalking rifles. Both Walthers, the left in 7x57 and the right in 8x57. Note the "stalking" safeties.

Extremely nice rifles, Tony!! I have seen only one exactly like yours, here in Argentina, in .30-06. Rifles made as should be made...
Regards,

PH

Hello VAnimrod,

I presume you are asking for pictures of the bedding job. I will put some tomorow.
Regards,

PH

Hello,

Here are some pictures of the stock and the bedding job.
Regards,

PH

Mauser built in the pre-war German style, by an apprentice gunmaker, in .257 AI.

Why thank you. I picked them up while living here in Canada and just received the paperwork from the US authorities approving my importation of them back to the States. Nice, simple, functional pieces they are.

A Swedish hunting Mauser, built in Germany in 1893.
Front and rear sights updated and wood refinished in 1985.

Very interesting and strange, Lee! The action can`t be a Swedish 1896, obviously, if the rifle was made in 1893. What action and caliber is it? And notably, it has a hinged floorplate!
I have an Original Sporting DWM Rifle. 1893 action and 7x57. N� 5xx. I know only 1000 were made. I will post some pictures of this one.
Thanks,

PH

This rifle had been in the original Swedish family since 1893 until I bought it a few years ago. It is in 6.5x55 Swede, with a 25-inch barrel, and schnabel forend. The story they told was that it needed rebluing and the grandson, then in his 50s, went ahead and replaced the worn front sight, added the aperture sight and the hinged floorplate.

I sent the SN to a German expert on Mausers. He said it was one of 75 original 6.5x55 SEs built for the King of Sweden, some sporting, some military, on the 1893 action. The King passed them out to his military officers and hunting companions. They liked them, and the rest is history. Sweden ordered the first batch of rifles, which were built on 1894 actions in Germany, from Swedish steel. The next batch were the 1896, built in the new Mauser factory in Sweden.

I hope this rifle has all that history behind it, but it sure feels like it, sort of like the feeling I get when I unsheath a sword from the Civil War, or Samurai era. It shoots very well, too, with standard 140-gr ammunition at 2,550 FPS.

If I didn't have to work, I could spend a year buying up old DWM, Oberndorf, and Austrian sporting rifles and restoring them.

Well, Lee24, thank you for a good laugh. I thought you were selling us a member of the Swedish Royals as a gun tinkerer, that of all rifles grabbed a Mauser and updated with, of all thing, a Lyman sight.

But then I reread and realized, the "original swedish family" that owned the arm since 1893 and sold it to you a few years ago must have been the family of one of the officers and hunting companions of Gustav V. that had received the arm as one of 75 custom made ... yada yadah...

Bunch of loonies, past and present.

Lee,

Here are pictures of my Oldest Stalking Rifle. Look at the Proof Marks, not present in the military rifles of the same period. And under the chamber it is marked the rifling twist in mm : 222,5 (around 8,7 inches). When I measured the RT it was exactly 1 turn in 222,5 mm!! It was bought by my Greatgrandfader as I told. I pressume it was bought in Argentina around the turn of the XIX century or in the firt years of the XX century. At that golden time in our country, there were big and well stocked gunshops.
This rifle is still in their original rust blue. The bore is rather dark but with strong rifling. It shoots very acceptable with good handloads. Around 1,5 " at 100 meters. It has a long throat and needs 2 grains of powder more than my other Mauser for the same velocity.
This DWM Original Sporting rifles are extremely well done. At least equal or better than most of the famous sporting rifles.
I like and enjoy the history of your old rifle !
PH

Once again, Liar24 proves his level of dumbphuckitude is unmatched.

Looks like Lee really does know how to post a picture.

Post that Winchester Lee, come on.

Have posted this before, but here's a couple of Husqvarnas in 7X57:



They make great stalking rifles!

Ted

PatagoniaHunter, I really like your rifles! I was looking at your stock pics and thought that was an excellent conversion on a military stock with exceptional grain. Did you do it yourself?

Hi Joe,

No, it wasn`t me! The work was done by a young and very talented gunsmith at Buenos Aires. It is perhaps the best compleat gunsmith, wood and metal, now in Argentina. The metal bedding job is truly outstanding! You can dismount and mount the barreled action without ANY loss of the zero! And his care of all the details, is amazing. He also made the bases for the Kimber tipe detachable mount.
Regards,

PH

cmg, I can't tell what it is you are challenging, but I don't think you know, either, so there is no point going any further with you on what is some toxic mixture of Mauser ignorance and envy.

Here is another good example of an English stalking rifle, in .318 Westley Richards (8x57mm). This one is a take-down model.

While we're at it, how about an Westley Richards .275 (7x57)...

Now THAT one makes me squirm in my seat.....!
Ingwe

Patagonia,
I think it the lines of a rifle such as your DWM are still modern looking today. These early sporters were way ahead of what was being used in the 1890s and later. They are breakthroughs that are timeless. You rifle has the overall lines of a 1903 Mannlicher, another timeless design which held up into the 1950s.

Lee24,

You just ended the discusssion. Those two are stalking rifles by definition. Everything elese here is a rifel that you can use in talking in a pinch but....

1B

Did you guys see the pics of Sakorick's 35 Whelen on a 1903A3 Springfield action? He posted them on the custom rifles/wildcats forum, but here is one of them:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/member_images/13138-35a.JPG

I thought that one was one sweet stalking rifle, so I went to my local store where they had one that was very similar and laid her away...

I've always wanted a reciever-sighted 30'06 and now I'll have one!

Stalking rifles? Here are some of the rifles i can use for stalking, i mean going closer and closer to the hunted game, to over smart him. Even if i practice long distance target training (to 6/800m) shooting is not hunting, hunt is not war and here legal maximun shooting distance at game is 300m (330yards). I always try to get closer.
A Merkel K1 in 7x65R i use it for all type of hunt even "battue"...scope is S&B fixed 4
Old Steyr in 7x64, she wear a new S&B 1,5-6x42, precise, reliable, smooth feeding nothing bad to say.
Another Steyr an Ultralight model based on SBS96 Scout receiver, cal 7-08, scope is Kahles 2-7x36, here with a roe deer shot after some hours of stalk in brushy and noisy vegetation.
Stalking rifles, generally, wear low power scopes or variables cause the shot is mostly taken off hand, in various positions and can be real fast when the game spook you.

Thanks for the great pics...always nice to see whats going on in other hunting venues...
Also, I kinda like the idea of maximum legal shooting distance...( that ought to fire up a bunch of guys watching this thread...)
Thanx again..
Ingwe

Marseille-
Very nice rifles and excellent photos.

Was the moose/elk from Sweden?
--Bob

1B & ingwe-

About the two images that Lee24 posted images on 29 May:
These two are listed for sale on Westley Richards' web site. Both are in the used guns section.

The .318 WR take-down rifle (LINK here) you can have for only $10,500. Shipping and handling may be extra. It comes with a nice case. The barrel is 28" long, and the rifle weighs 8-3/4 lbs without a scope, which seems to me a bit heavy for an ideal stalking rifle.

The .275 Rigby rifle (LINK here) is a gorgeous piece, as well it should be for $35K. If you pick up the phone tomorrow morning and ask for it with express shipping, you probably could have it in your hands a day later. Again, as a stalking rifle this one is a bit heavy at a couple ounces less than 9 lbs. However, since your gillie or gamekeeper will be toting it up the hill for you, this might not be a problem.

On the WR web site, close-up views of both rifles are available. The engraving on the .275 is worth looking at closely.

--Bob

Thanks Bob...but doggone it all, my wife is real understanding, but she will only let me buy one $35K rifle per week, and I've used up my budget this week..
Figured thats about what those would go for....saw a beautiful utility grade Rigby .350 not long ago, plain but exquisite and it was around the 10K mark.
For all the grief I give freinds from the UK, I sure like how some of them build rifles!
Ingwe

Lee24-

The .318 Westley Richards cartridge is not the 8x57. They differ substantially. The .318 is described on p.370 of my copy of the 10th edition of Cartridges of the World, with the dimensions given on p.392.

The 8x57 is described on pp.71 and 344, with dimensional data on pp.102 and 358.

Among other differences, the case of the .318 is 0.15" longer. Bullets for the .318 are .330" in diameter; the modern 8x57 shoots .323" bullets. Curiously, the rim and base diameters of the .318 are slightly smaller than the 8x57's.

The DWM cartridge number for the .318 is 570; for the 8x57 it's 366. The Germans perceived these as different cartridges.

The .318 was apparently known by various names: .318 Westley-Richards, .318 Westley-Richards Accelerated, .318 Axite, .318 Rimless Nitro Express, .318 WR Accelerated Express, and .318 WR Express.

While the 7x57 was named the .275 by Rigby, I cannot find any reference to a British redesignation of the 8x57. If you know of such, perhaps you could post a reference?

--Bob

Yes Bullshooter, it's a swedish moose, weight was 390kg shot with the 7x65R Norma Oryx bullet first version 170grs now they are only 156grs.

Marseille,
Nice rifles! And I strongly agree with your scope choices!
PH

Francis Sell, one of my favorite old time writers, in the course of killing hundreds of deer in the thick northwestern forests developed some very well considered opions on the requirements of a rifle used in the stalking of those elk and blacktail deer in thick cover.
He considered stock fit, weight in relation to balance, safety type and position, barrel lenght, action type, caliber, all matched to the shooter's physical and mental make up. He would no more more proclaim one rifle as the "best" stalking rifle than he would have declared one show size that everyone should wear.
What he was looking for was a rifle that would allow the hunter to place a well aimed shot into a paper plate sized target as quickly as possible with the minimum amount of movement. Some of the rifles he liked were the Marlin 336 and the Winchester model 71, reworked somewhat, 20 inch bolt rifles with Mannlicher stocks and others.
These rifles did not have the accuracy and power that he felt were ideal for open country hunting, and for that, I believe he was apt to use a bolt action 300 magnum in a wildcat caliber.
Anyone interested in rifles for stalking deer and elk would find a Francis Sell book informative.

Hi Royce,

I agree with Sell too, i limited my choice to 3 of the rifles i use for stalking, but also in driven hunt not to over charge the forum. But i use some more, d�pending my mood, where i hunt and what i'm looking for.It can be strange or unbelievable for some american hunters but i like walking the woods with my 356 mod 94 or my 348 mod 71, but i also have a nice mod70 custom with Griffin&Howe side scope mount in 270Winch and one old Sch�nauer take down in 9,5x57. They are as good stalking rifles as driven hunt ones.

Dom

Bullshooter,
You are correct about the details of the .318 Westley Richards.

I figured a lot of people would not know what these between-the-wars classic British cartridges were, so I put "7x57" and "8x57" in parentheses, because those are the enormously successful German military cartridges which they emulate.

Westley Richards' showroom is in Montana for some years now, so it is accessible to many Americans for a hands-on visit.

I have lots of other pictures of handsome rifles like this, and some I and others have built in an effort to capture the same look and feel. A friend of mine found a .318 WR in a gun store in California for $500.00, reblued it and built a new stock much like the old one but changed a bit to suit his frame. I don't have a digital photo it, or his restored .404 Jeff, but will try to get some of them on his last safari.

Like Marseille, I believe the Steyr M and its predecessors to be super rifles for still hunting and stalking. The carbines are especially suited to thick woods and mountains; they carry like a Savage 99 carbine (another great stalking rifle!).

Here are some older ones I posted last year:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2438190/page/19/fpart/2

Wouldn't the Remington Model Seven count as a current manufacture "stalking" rifle?

I think the Model 7 is an excellent stalking rifle, except a little muzzle light, and it must have iron sights. The SAUM Model 7s are really nice, compact, powerful rifles that can reach out 300+ yards - they just need some iron sights!

I think what really sets these fine old English, German, and newer Austrian rifles apart is balance, how easily they carry in the hands, and how well they point for a quick shot. You can match them on paper, but that doesn't count.

[quote=Lee24]
I think what really sets these fine old English, German, and newer Austrian rifles apart is balance, how easily they carry in the hands, and how well they point for a quick shot. You can match them on paper, but that doesn't count.

That is one thing that sets them apart and looking exceptionaly good while they are at it is the other.

Von Gruff.

Great pics ... everything about 'em.

Edited: to repeat pics worth repeating.

Will try to post a pic or two of the stalking rifle in 7x57 that I built on a 1908 DWM. http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/7x57StalkingRifle004.jpg

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/7x57StalkingRifle002.jpg

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/7x57StalkingRifle005.jpg


http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/7x57StalkingRifle02-02-09012.jpg

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/7x57StalkingRifle005.jpg

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/7x57StalkingRifle02-02-09007.jpg

Great job, VonGruff!
A 1908 DWM is a great platform to build something in the vintage style.
Did you do it all yourself?
What components did you use?
Have you done any others?

Thanks Lee. I did the stock and the reshaping of the tangs (top and bottom) made the rear swivel and surround and skeletonised the butt plate. Used two military triggers and cut them to shift the finger piece to the rear of the trigger bow which was also reshaped. Mab (Australian) no 3 barrel with NECG front sight and BB swivel stud. A Rusty Marlin cocking piece aperture sight. A good friend is a GS and did the chambering and setting up of the barrel, etc. Had a set of custom bases made to take the Ruger rings with lever release for scope( carried in day-pack) It shoots the 160gn Woodleighs at 2700 into 1 1/4 through aperture at 100yds so am okay out to 250 or so without scope.Have also done a 404 Jeffery .Will try to post a pic.


http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/404Jeffery049.jpg

Von� Gruff.

Von Gruff,
Those are beauties! Thanks for sharing.