It would seem to me that a short action 30 caliber that virtually matches the 30-06 would sell like hotcakes. All of its offspring that have been necked up and down seem to get plenty of press,but it seems like the 308 gets overlooked. In all the rifles I've shot it in it has been superbly accurate and it has always gotten the job done when it comes to dropping game. It may just be the most efficient and accurate cartidge out there but nobody seems to give it a second look.

Boring. Pedestrian. Just competent.

There's nothing wrong with a .308 ... however, there's nothing really impressive about one either. IMHO, it's popularity came mainly because it's been around so long, and that it's a small arms staple of most countries military units ...

I prefer the 7mm-08 by a mile and then some, and the .243 as well considering today's bullets and powders ... I'd say each of those is as efficient, or more efficient, as the .308 ...

another aspect is that (as far as I'm concerned) you can pretty much do the same thing as a .308 with either the 7mm-08 or .243win, with less recoil, and same or better accuracy ... so I'd skip right over the .308 to something even bigger if the 7mm-08 can't do it ...

that's why I have no love for the .308 ...

It depends on how you define "efficiency." If it's energy produced for the amount of powder burned, then the .308 beats the .243 and 7mm-08.

If you want to talk accuracy, then every lab technician for ammo and bullet companies I've talked to says the .308 will beatr just about any other cartridge for accuracy across a wide range of bulet weights and powders. And they shooting indoors, sometimes from machine rests.

If you want to talk availablity, .308 ammo is available in more places in a wider variety than either the .243 or 7mm-08.

It also comes close enough to the .30-06 to do the same things with factory ammo, especially with todays bullets.

It's boring, but it works. And actually, a LOT of .308 rifles are sold, far more than most rifle loonies realize, because average people buy them, instead of those who get custom rifles built. That's why every major bolt-action rifle maanufacturer in the world chambers the .308. It's very popular.

what would it have to do to be considered popular? beat out the hundred year old '06?


it's by far the most popular short action cartridge over 6mm caliber in the world. what does it have to do to be considered "popular"?


Mickey is building me my first one right now...so I guess its popular with me, finally.

My Rem 788 in 308 is the most accurate rifle I own , except for my 6mm250 of course.

Mike

It is not new but it just works. Reading here for a little over 2 yrs. I have never read anything bad about the 308 just that it didn't turn a few on.

I have always had a soft place in my heart for the .308.. maybe it's because my dad shot one when I was growing up and I wanted a "big" rifle. I started out deer hunting with a single shot .20 ga. with a slug and then moved up to a borrowed 30-30.. I now have a 3006 and a .308 and......... you know the rest of the story..lol

I love the round! Maybe it lacks cachet, but it's solid. I just bought one a couple of weeks ago.

As for popularity, someone who keeps records on such can tell how man .308 dies are sold. And probably how many .308 rifles.

To me, it's ideal. There are other rounds that seem to be popular for the moment, but I don't think it's ever a mistake especially for bullets up to and including 165 gr.

Everybody has to have bigger stuff. I think it has something to do with Viagra and little dic........

I don't think it is a reach to say that the 308 is available in more actions than some other rounds!!!

+1... but so are the 30-30 WCF & 30'06 Springfield, but I have one of each of those...

I remember a great article by a certain gun writer who graces this site regularly in which he almost had me convinced that I should build a pimpin' .308 Win so I'd be that man with one rifle that you're supposed to beware of. But then what would I do with my 257 AI, or 338-06 ??

It just plain works for 99% of the hunting that most do. I guess that is what makes it boring to some, a 165 at 2700fps is just not sexy but it sure is effective. I have recently gone to a .270 for deer hunting but it was strictly for nostalgia, not because the .308 was somehow lacking.

Ditto MuleDeer. I certainly like my boring 308 Win., its mighty accurate, and a EASY round to shoot off the bench or in the field. Whats not to like? As opposed to a 7-08, probably not much, but the .308 Win is a great round no less. Rifletom

Seems to be your problem right there.

Cartridges that have BT/DT, don't sell glossy magazines.

The .308 sells like hot cakes in nearly all areas of the world for general hunting, and to people who just want stuff to work and could care less about "press".

Huh? Re: popularity, isn't the .308 on the list of the five most popular cartridges sold as factory ammo and as reloading dies?? (right along with the 30-06, .270, 7mm Magnum, and .243)??

If I go into the local Walmart or Canadian Tire, the only cartridges available are those five, plus the 303 British, 30-30, and the 300 WinMag.

In MN at my in-laws every adult male has a 308 either in a Savage 99 or Remington pump. The kids get 243s and a brother-in-law and his 16 year old son have a 30-06.

To John G: I was referring to popularity among rifle loonies not just general civilians.

popular and flashy are two different things.
the 308 is like the Sun,it's always there doing the job so why hype it.
it's the perfect cartridge IMHO

...........The 308 may not be as overlooked as much as you might think. Setting everything else aside, such as boring or any other minor titty-tat criticisms of the 308, it is an extremely popular hunting and tactical round.

However, the 308 cannot "virtually match" the ballistics of the faster 30-06.

My Remington SA (20" barrel) .308 moves a 180 grain Accubond at 2740 FPS.....it's a big league rifle in a small package.....

What's wrong with the .308?

Last summer I had my first .308W put together on a Model 70 action. Shoots fantastic and although I have yet to use it on game, I have no doubt that it well work well on whitetails and anything else I will probably use it on. A Nula in .308W may be the best all rounder big game rifle one could own.

....Absolutely nothing wrong with a 308.......In fact, from your rifle, a 180 grainer @ 2740 fps out of a 20" barrel from a 308 is excellent, considering that Sierra shows 2600 fps from a 26" tubed Savage as max for the 308,,,(lawyer loadings?) A 26" tubed 30-06 also from a Savage in the Sierra manual lists 2800 fps for max loadings.

In the Sierra manual anyway and given the same barrel length, the 308 runs 200 fps behind the `06 using 180 gr bullets.

Regarding the short actioned rifles in smaller packages that perform extremely well, you and I have something in common. I can relate very well to "big league" rifles in smaller packages!

As with my 16.5" barreled 300 WSM Ruger Frontier compact, it also appears that your Remy has a faster bore as well. My fastest chrony speed (max loading) with a 180 gr runs at 2917 fps MV. But, 2765 to about 2850 fps gives me better consistent accuracy and is really all the velocity I need and then some.

Used to hunt in the thick timber of Oregon with an old sheep rancher. He shot a old Sako in 308 and never had a problem putin game on the ground.That rifle had more character and stories to go with it than a person could imagin.That rancher packed that rifle everywhere and shot everything with it, deer,coyotes,probem dogs,squirrels,and elk.The rifle had almost no blueing,the wood was well worn, and that man told stories about it.After 20 years I can still picture it.Popular in my safe, no. Popular in my mind yes, I want a Sako 308 that has the hisory and memories that that rancher had with his 308.To do that,I'd probably have to get rid of all the others.

Used a .308 to shoot my way to "High Master" with the NRA. Worked like a champ. Barrels last 5000+ rounds with excellent accuracy. A long-proven favorite of the target shooting crowd and the tactical shooting community. It can handle most hunting situations in North America, from varmints to moose. It's the center-fire round I load and shoot most frequently.

If I had to go down to one rifle cartridge, it would likely be the .308 Winchester. It's sure as heck popular with me and my shooting buddies!

Regards, Guy

The 308 is a great round, but it falls well short of the 30-06. You won't see tnat in loading books, because 30-06 data is still limited to the pressures of the Springfield and Garand. The 308, with it's higher pressures, does match the M2 ball loads, but when you load a 30-06 up to the same pressure levels as the 308--which is absoluetly safe to do in modern firearms, then you see what the 30-06 will do. 2900-3000 fps from a 24" barrel and a 168 grain bullet is common. That's well beyond the 308.

If given the choice 308 for life or the ought six, I'd do a 308 everytime. Why burn the powder?

If given the choice, ought six or 300 Win Mag. for life, it'd be ought six. Again, why burn the powder when closer (hunting) always works?

Come to think of it, the 300 Savage was way ahead of its time, and fully modern, even today...Don't give me any 30/30 guff either (grins)

speed kills...

the .308 has the necessary speed to kill reliably, but the speed to kill impressively evades it...

in my opinion, and experience, a rifleman using a fast loaded .243 (or any number of other cartridges that utilize more speed) will experience a greater number of DRT kills, if all else is equal...

Speed kills? 220 Swift for me then...

Arrows must be [bleep]....

AussieGunwriter (John Woods), might argue your experience.....

I hope he still posts and we have not scared him off; or he is very busy and making money...

imo, the .300 winchester is the most businesslike cartridge ever developed for big game hunting... speed is an asset in all aspects of hitting a target with a rifle... in my experience, the winnie easily achieves the optimum balance between bullet weight, bullet speed, and rifle weight to hit any big game target under about any reasonable conditions... and to effect, with proper shooting, reliable and fast kills...

bullets, not cartridges, do work.

Lead can do work of jacketed, at lower speeds, if given the opportunity.....

Most animals I've ran across don't reckon "balance", just holes where they are soft. Some more than less.

I'd also bet the 308 and 30/06 have done more "business"...

I do like the choice and performance of a 300/200 gr. Partition, though I could manage the same with a 308 and a well made caster, if forced to..

it does a super job on most game animals that we hunt... deer, antelope and such...



they have the speed to kill reliably at extreme short range...
archers go to more extremes in search of speed than do riflemen...
to a rifleman, 50 fps is nothing... to an archer, the difference between 250 and 300 fps is significant...

HawkI,

Go get a 30 carbine and be happy....

I love the 30-06, but with a well constructed bullet, what happens as impact velocity increases is spectatular. All you have to do is pull the trigger of a few animals with fast and slower chamberings, as well as talk to others who have done that as well. We all agree moderate velocity kills well enough, but high velocity--with proper bullets and withhin reason, makes for more spectatular kills.

Like John Woods?

Seriously,

I have used rifle cartridges from the fast end 243 WSSM (85gr.) , the 25/06 (100 gr.) to the slow 22 Hornet (48gr. cast) to the handguns and .72 cal.slugs my home state used mandate me to use.

Maybe my fast end isn't adequate (that includes the 300 Winny), but shock, DRT and psychobabble don't do the same as two busted shoulders and a decent hole through the vitals.

Call me a liar but I've seen a 45 Colt kill just as fast and as slow as a 300 Winny, of which I like...

Spectacular I have seen from a wide variety of speeds at impact. Animals just don't seem to comprehend every time...

With a properly twisted bbl for a heavy, easy expanding cast or a proper Barnes bullet, I'd roll the 30 carbine....

The 308 Winchester has always sold guns and ammo reliably. Being the favorite 30/06's "younger brother" it just doesn't get the level of discussion that its older brother does. The 308 pays its dues as powerful and reliable, not flashy.

In today's very light short actioned rifles the 308 gives its best performance. Manufactures had to invent the short magnums to try and best the 308.

i have, and hunt with a .300 savage. i own 2 .308s and have used rifles so chambered on 3 continents. i have, and use one 30-06 (and just had another rebarreled to 25-06)...

my .300 winchester is enough louder, and enough pushier, that if it had no particular merit over my other rifles, i would sell it...
experience with long range, high winds, and potentially undesirable results from less than well made shots have formed my perspective....



you can mow 400 acres of hay on a cub cadet riding mower, if you so choose... i have better methods.....

Good,

You are not forced to use the Cub, use iron sights or even clean an animal you have shot.

You don't have to be forced to learn anything from history either...

If you travel those three continents again, by your own admission, you'd be wise to go 300 RUM or a 30-378 Bee to achieve nirvana.

Speed kills....go forth and multiply.



I thought you were saying it was for a rifleman? Silly me...

history teaches me that the 30-06 was developed, way back when, because the 7mm mauser was a better weapon than the krag, principally because of the significantly higher velocity it's bullets achieved...

once again, bullet speed is an asset in every aspect of rifle shooting... there are no specific flies on the RUM or any of the faster .30s.....
the .30 carbine has issues, imo.....

you brought up the archery stuff.....

as well as the rough language... i'm out.....

Bullet speed can be an asset or a detriment; bullets do the work.

Every cartridge has limits, as does every bullet or alloy. Some at the low end, some at the high end. You can destroy a low end bullet at the high end and have less than desirable results with a high end bullet at the low end speed.

Are you now saying the 7 Mouser is a better killer than the 30/40 Krag or its ballistic twin, the 303? That would be a lot of speculation and dead animals that didn't care.

I know I'd take a 30 carbine and a solid flatnose through both shoulders before I picked a 300 Lazzeroni with a 110 V-Max.

Why not run solids through both of them to determine how well they kill? Or are you relying more on the bullet, not the speed?

Nothing at all wrong with a 308,and I was under the impression that it's enormously popular.Lots of guys back here really like it and I suspect there are more 30/06's and 308's in use in Maine,for example,than anything else.

I never got into the cartridge because I have always,from the time I started shooting had at least one 30/06 hanging around. I think the 308 is a solid cartridge but the tasks I would have for it are performed just as well by other cartridges,so I have no real need for it.

The conversation between Hawk and Johnw was interesting and I think both are right,with the caveat about good bullets suited to the task.Cartridges of moderate velocity like the 7x57,6.5's and 318WR had reputations as good killers with solid bullets or heavy-for-caliber expanding bullets that penetrated large animals well,or so I read.I did not spend a lot of time in Africa in the 1st half of the 20th Century

As you increase velocity, it's good to have bullets that can take higher impact velocity,still expand properly without coming unglued,or at least that's my opinion and not shared by everyone.IMO that's when "speed kills".

If I were to save up all of my hard earned pesos to have one nice little custom built, the cartridge of choice would definately be a 308 win.. And that would work for a Kimber Montana or a NULA, Too.

The 308 is accurate and powerful enough for anything in the lower 48, although for big bears, I'd prefer something heavier. It is very popular, but boring and common. Gun enthusiasts go for the exotic calibers, others just want a rifle that gets the job done.

Ammo is available in any cross-roads store. It IS popular and widely used. I currently have 3 and have owed another 5-6 in the past.

NULA's are nice rifles, accurate and lightweight. I keep saving my pennies to buy one, but always get sidetracked by another rifle. Someday....

I have a .308W, .30-06 and a .300WM. Have yet to use the .308W on game. For the .30-06 and .300WM and the ranges I use them at-around 350max, and rarely that far-the animals have not shown any preference. I suspect the same will apply with the .308W. It will also kick less and carry easier.

No doubt the other two can hit harder at all ranges and use bigger bullets more efficiently, but is that always necessary or diminish the practical use of a .308W? Also none have mentioned the barrel lengths it takes for the other two to run at their best: 24 and 26in. I think it was Montana Marine who cut his .308W down to 20in without any appreciable loss of velocity. Feel free to correct me on that if I'm wrong.

To my way of thinking the .30-06 is the odd man out, although you could easily make the case it makes the other two unnecessary. They all have a place.

+1.

The .308 Win is an ideal compromise of many things, including velocity and energy. More pop than a 30-30, but less than a 30-06, both of which work quite well. A short action, and accurate as any caliber out there. Others have more umph, or are more glamorous, but the .308 keeps bringing home the bacon.

I'm a fan. It's such a well rounded catridge. Performs well and can play in most any game from tactical to lightweight hunter. You can find something "better" depending on the standards you use, but there's nothing "wrong" with a .308

The .308 isn't as "popular" with gun nuts for the reason illustrated by this thread:

Any discussion of the .308 always turns into a .308 vs. .30-06 debate.

The truth is that they're very similar, each having debatable strong points over the other. For most people, and most purposes, these differences are so insignificant as to be negligible.

Enthusiasts of any ilk love to debate minutia that non-enthusiasts would never consider. It's fun.

I've got a .308 and it's amazingly accurate. I wouldn't sell it. I would be just as happy with a .30-06 if it shot as well.

-nosualc

Around here it is challenging to even find a 308 chambered rifle on the shelf at a gun store. I'm not clear on why that is, but even the 243 seems more common here.

Speed kills??? i was under the impression that destroying the working parts of an animals anatomy killed it??? Guess i better throw my bow away

There aint no flies on the .308win and for good reason, it just gets it done. To all those who subscribe to the Wheatherby mantra of "speed kills" i suggest getting a rifle in .358win and shooting some animals and then tell that speed kills

I was going to bring up the arrow part, but decided it did not apply, and I was wrong. Somehow a bow and stick is acceptable but the .308W and some lesser calibers are marginal? That always has caused me to wonder for short periods of time.

I think the 03 and the Mauser system was picked over the -30-40 Krag because of the loading system. The speed wasn't all that different back in the heavy bullet pre-06 days.

Nobody said anything about shock, DRT, and psychobabble except you. However, the fact is a bullet that holds together, remins stable, and completely penetrates makes a bigger wound channel the faster it goes. A bigger wound channel means more tissue damage, and more tissue damage often results in quicker kills.

Often is a word I seldom use...



Is this hole large enough for a quick kill? It is an entrance wound, and the deer went darn close to 200 yds....

If you are saying that a 300 is better for longer shots, allows for less drift and holdover with longer, heavier bullets, then yes, it has it all over the 308. Ballistically, the 300 is obviously "better".

Placement trumps all else, even the size of the "hole" at times; people seem to care, arguing degrees of dead, animals don't.

FWIW it wouldn't have gone as far with a smaller, slower bullet hole with the shoulders collected..

In a word-MARKETING

I have always wondered why the pawnshops and gunshops
dont have a selection of used Remington and Savage bolt actions
in .308 Win.

"speed kills...

the .308 has the necessary speed to kill reliably, but the speed to kill impressively evades it..."


I'm gonna hafta call "Crapola" to that, as I've shot critters for 40 years with the .308 and have never noticed that it killed with any less efficiency or quickness than faster cartridges. In fact, the quickest kill I ever saw was a bull moose that my youngest son put down, DRT, with a 180-gr. NP from the lowly .308. So, am I supposed to conclude that the .308 is superior to all the other cartridges I've seen used on moose?

A buddy of mine is a horseman, black bear guide, and a died-in-the-wool moose hunter. He, his son, and other family members go to Northern BC every year on a long horseback hunt, and have for 35 years. They've shot a lot of moose. He used to use the .308 almost exclusively, then he went to the .338 WinMag. He went back to the .308 a couple of years ago because his .308 is a lot easier to carry and because he noticed that the .338 didn't kill moose any quicker than the .308. He says that over and over again it is proven to him that it's simply where you put the bullet that matters more than anything else.

Bullet placement and bullet construction trump everything else - and velocity is well down the list of important factors.

I'm glad they aren't more popular. It's a little tough finding brass for a .308 compared to a lot of other guns.

You miss the point. If that same bullet had impacted faster, stayed stable, and completely penetrated, the wound channel would have been bigger. A bigger wound channel means more damage.

No one is talking about shot placement, ballistic superiority, or degrees of dead. Further, deer are not hard to kill, so how a deer reacts isn't a good standard. A better standard is how hogs, elk, or bear react. With the few of those critters I have shot, in every case, the properly placed bullet that did the most damage resulted in the quickest kill. And the faster the bullet--again as long as it stays stable and compeltely penetrates, does the most damage.

That isn't even a point to be debated, and that is my only point here.

In my world there is only "dead"....no such thing as deader, deadest, more deader and most deadest! LOL

If you didn't "do it" with the .308 Winnie (referencing deer) then you wasn't going to do it with more of anything.....

You can do it with a sharp stick..................

I continue to fail to understand why folks are so hung up on DRT. 308 will work for a lot of instances and tracking has always been part of the puzzle for me. Bang flops aren't interesting. Unless you are in a hurry and meat hunting....

Personally I"d be willing to take a 308 any day at distances beyond what most would be comfortable with.

Speed isn't always an asset when it comes with more recoil, more muzzleblast, heavier rifles, and longer barrels.

For some, all that extra doesn't matter and they are happy with a 26" barreled bolt rifle that weighs nine pounds. Yes, you can get lighter rifles in big cartridges, but with more recoil. Yes, you can tame that recoil with a brake, but with a bunch more noise.

Others want a shorter, lighter, quieter rifle of sufficient killing power. For that, the .308Win is a top choice, but not the only one.

To each his own.

Nothing wrong with a 308, IMO.
Kind of like the 30-06, not much it cannot do with good shot placement.

I think the .308 is about as good as it gets.
The notion that any other cartridge is miles better is silly.
The .308 servs a wide range of purposes real well.
As far as the bullet speed goes.
If you hand load, you can prety much match your bullet to your cartridge.
I mean if you load a 150 grain sierra boat tail into a 300 RUM,
it is likly to break apart and not penatrate.
But that same bullet from a .308 is likly to do a much better job.
Also. I'm not so sure the 7X57 (another of my favorites)shot that much faster and flatter than the 30/40 at the time.
The 7X57 was I believe using a 175 gr rn bullet, while the Krag was using a 220 grain RN.
A little faster to be sure, but the big advatage of the old mauser to the Krag was the stripper clip reloading.
Remember the short lived 30/03 came before the 30/06, It had the same 220 grain RN.
Buy then the germans where using spitzers in the 8mm Mauser, I think 150 grainers.
That is what caused the Army brass hats to redesign the 30/03 into the 30/06.
...tj3006
.

When I was growing up in PA the .308 was very popular. Several PA Game News surveys showed it in the top 2-3. I haven't seen one in the field up there in years. Here in TX, all of the .308s I see at the range are "police" or "tactical" models. Nobody I know hunt with .308s anymore, though several of my Dad/Grandad's generation did. I have neve seen one on a guided hunt either (lots of 06s & .270s though). It just seems to me the .308s is starting to wane in popularity as a hunting round, ubt is more popular than ever with the tac crowd. All that being said, the .308 is a marvelous hunting round. I love it in short barreled carbines for whitetail hunting.

Lou

I cannot remember the last time I saw a 308 bolt action in my local gun shop.

When I bought my Montana in 308 a few years ago, I had to wait several months to take delivery.

I have very few bang flops, mostly shoot into the heart/lung let it run and go find it. I have had 5 or 6 .308's, I always wind up buying them, hunting them, selling them to buy some of the latest whiz bang stuff and then buying another one, mostly because a 150 bullet works pretty good on the deer I shoot mostly under 150 yards. My latest is another short barreled Ruger RSI which I expect to keep for a while. I also think at some point I am going to sell my Weatherby.270win whose stock I hate and buy a 7-08 which is said to kick less and do about the same thing.

I think you missed the point. The projectile WAS stable, it DID exit (with a larger hole) and animals (including this easy to kill deer) don't care...you must be saying a 12 ga. Brenneke at ten yards isn't any good for deer; it must go faster!

How much damage is enough? Sometimes you can carry what may be way too much gun for "easy to kill" stuff, only to have them bounce up.

I've never shot an elk or bear, but hogs die pretty easy too, yet not always, just like the easy to kill deer. Carts range from the 22 Hornet to the 338 Win. with 230 FailSafes that run 2,900fps. Throw a .25/06, 9mm, 44 Mag, 45 Colt, and 35 Whelen in there for the hogs, even the 308.

I'm glad I have no hard rules other than putting decent bullets where they die; when they die everytime, all cartridges are equal 4 me.

I forget who said, ""speed kills...

the .308 has the necessary speed to kill reliably, but the speed to kill impressively evades it..."

All I can say to that is BS! The two longest shots I ever made on deer were at 427 paces (no rangefinders back in 1973) and a 250 yard shot laser measured a few years back. Both shots were witnessed and the longer shot was paced off by thre people and the paces average out. Both deer dropped at the shot. Most of the deer I've kiled were shot at ranges closer that those two. I've ben using the .308 for deer most of the time since 1971 when I bought my first one, a Remington 660. The load, from what I recall in that rifle was a stiff load of H-335 and a 150 gr. Sierra Pro-hunter, although I don't recall if they called them by that name back then. Velocity for the load is unknown, no chronographs available at the time. At least none that I could afford. The 250 yard shot was laser measured and this time the gun was a Ruger 77 RSI. The load was with W-760 and the 165 gr. Speer Hot-core. Velocity was 2550 FPS from the 18.5" barrel. The bullet hit the deer and the deer dropped on the spot. All the other dozen or so deer shot with that .308 were taken mostly at distances less that 100 yards and the farthest any one went was maybe 35 yards, all shot with that slow poke 165 gr, bullet.
FWIW, that same 165 gr. load does all of a blistering 2610 FPS from a 22" barreled winchester M70. The reason for that particular load BTW is because it is the only load that has come close to shooting well in that Ruger RSI and I really like carrying the light weight rifles, not only because of the weight, but because I think it's a classy looking rifle.
I just took delivery of a semi-custom (custom to me) 98 mauser that I just had rebarreled to .308 with a 23" barrel, just to be different. I haven't had a chance to try it out yet due to lack of time, but I did get some ammo loaded up fo the gun. FWIW, I used a .308 on the shortest shot I ever took on a deer as well, 6 feet. Somebody spooked it and it ran right past where I'd taken a stand. That's when I quit using the 150 gr. Sierra. Makes too much of a mess of good eating meat. One can shoot heavy bullets as well. I get 2310 FPS from my M70 shooting 220 gr. Sierra round nose bullets. That's only 100 FPS less than the advertised velocity of factory 30-06. Very accurate too. (.375 to .50" when I do my part.)
Can the 30-06 be loaded to shoot faster than factory? Of course it can. I have a load for my .300 Win. Mag. that does 2930 FPS with 200 gr. Speer Hot-cores and it damned accurate too. It's just that as I rapidly approach my 71st birthday, hard kicking and heavy rifles just are not the fun they used to be. Arthritis on my right shoulder plays a part in that, so I stick to the lighter kicking stuff these days like the 7x57 and .308 Win.
I didn't draw for elk this year so I don't have to play with the magnums.
I'll be taking my new .308 out sometime during the next week to see how it does and just get it sighted in.
Doesn't kill impressively? Yeah, right! I know of a couple dozen deer that would argue that point, if they were around to argue.
Would I use one on elk? While I have betetr rifles for elk, I wouldn't feel too under gunned if all I had was one of my .308s.
Paul B.

Hard to remember when I hav`nt had a 308.Some times have had several.If I was limited to one Rifle for north America,it would be a 308.There is nothing includeing big bears it will not kill.

Who said anything about DRTs?

No, I'm saying (again) that if the bullet went faster--assuming it stayed stable and still exited--it would have caused more damage.



A pinprick is enough, but that has nothing to do with my point about faster bullets causing more damage.



And with each one of the chamberings, drive the bullet faster--assuming it stays stable and sill exits--and it will do more damage.



I don't have any rules myself (they are more like guidlines), but I certainly disgaree with your notion that all cartridges are equal. In fact, I'll go out on a limb here and say you're probably out there by yourself on that one.........

I've not seen much difference in killing ability between the 308 and 30-06.

I have also noticed that around here, there seemingly are no 308 "hunting" rifles on the shelves. The ammo is available, people still use it for hunting, but nobody seems to be buying new ones. That is an obvious generalization, but people want the latest and greatest from what I can see, and the 308 is taking a back seat for new hunters.

I think that is a shame, since the 308 is a much better rifle, IMO, for the majority of hunters, who cannot shoot their new 300WSMs without flinching.

The Kimber Montana in 308 is an exception, as that seems to sell well around here (for as many Montanas as are sold).

Don't put words in my mouth....there are limits, but when dead is dead, what more is there? I am just as content shooting deer with a 45 Colt as shooting a mulie across a canyon with a magnum.

Making one kill just as fast as the other isn't a trick, nor is it a scientific study.

If you need a 300 Mag to do the work of a 308, because of "more damage", go right to town, more damage or not, the animals do not always care. That is MY point.

There is always the Scandinavian Moose studies.....

Wow, Steve, that's telling like it is. Who the hell said a 308 wasn't popular, effecient, accurate, and with 180 grain Partitions, drops elk just like it's 103 year old momma?

Wayne

I didn't--those were your words.

I'll say it again. The FASTER a given bullet goes, assuming it remains stable and exits, the more damage it does. That is and always has been my point. That is a fact. It has nothing to do with degrees of dead, the minumum amout required to kill, the ridiculous idea of "overkill," or anything else.

I happen to like how a 168 TSX performs on deer and hogs when launched from a 30-06 at 2900 fps at ranges out to 200 yds. based on this bullet's performance deer and hogs, I suspect it will do just fine on elk. Regardless, that bullet--assuming it stays stable and exits, will do more damage when launched at 3200 fps from my 300 Win, if I were so inclined to do so (I'm not).

BTW, I have not made any comments about, nor do I care, what the animals may or may not like. I would imagine the animals would like it best if we didn't shoot them at all..........

Someone mentioned speed kills, I said animals don't care; Yeah, faster can equal more damage, fine, I agree with that.

Why isn't the 308 more popular?

Cuz it's been replaced with the 7-08 and the 260!!!

NOOO!!!!! Don't quit arguing. It's been all I can do to find any disagreemnt, and I have been grumpy all day. LOL!!!!

I too disagree with the idea that speed kills. Blood loss is what kills, and blood loss is caused by tissue damage. Speed is often an enabler of an increase in tissue damage, which may or may not result in a quicker kill.

Hit stuff too fast and you don't get more blood loss, you get more clotting/bloodshot.

That is the beauty of broadheads, TSX's and flat/dished noses...

The most extreme case of a wound channel on a deer happened with a small Texas whitetail at around 100 yds and a 30 cal, 165 Swift Scirocco launched at 3150 FPS. The entrance wound--though the ribs--was thumb sized, but the exit wound was a 4" x 6" hole, with guts and broken ribs pushed through the hole. Even I thought that was too much..............

I assume some loonies may not like the .308 but I surely do.

I like it in lightweight lever guns like the 99F and in light bolt actions. For whatever reason there seem to be lots of lightweight 308 length actions.

The .308 in a Montana is as near perfect a blacktail rifle as I could imagine. The .308 kills elk just fine too.

Unless of course Kimber wises up and builds a true "30-06" action

The only way to improve on the Kimber 308 for Blacktails, hogs, black bear, and elk is to make it am M-70 Classic in an Edge in 30-06.......

Only if it goes 6 Lbs 3 Oz ready to hunt


two days and only 5 pages this time? I leave for 3 days and this is the best you guys can do??

Nobody said "Mine shoots farrer" or fired their Photobucket account Full Auto yet?

It does beat the 30-06 in RCBS die sales in 2006 and 2007.

2003
.30-06 Spr
.223 Rem
.308 Win
.22-250 Rem
.270 Win
.243 Win
.45 ACP
.300 Win Mag
.357 MAG
.44 MAG

2004
.30-06 Spr
.22-250 Rem
.270 Win
.45 ACP
.300 WSM
7MM Rem Mag
.44 MAG
.357 MAG
.223 Rem
.308 Win

2005
.204 Rug
.30-06 Spr
.223 Rem
.308 Win
.243 Win
.22-250 Rem
.45 ACP
.270 Win
.300 Win Mag
.44 MAG

2006
.223 Rem
.308 Win
.30-06 Spr
.243 WSSM
.22-250 Rem
.204 Rug
.270 WSM
.45 ACP
.357 MAG
.300 WSM

2007
.223 Rem
.308 Win
.30-06 Spr
.45 ACP
.22-250 Rem
.243 Win
357 MAG
.270 Win
.300 Win Mag
.204 Ruger

I bet more 30-06 hunting ammunition is sold than 308 ammunition!

most folks these days are just either dyed in the wool aught sixer's, or they has gots to havs a short magnum, or they want a light rifle for the kids (.243)!

hey dancing bear - i thought kimber already had a long action 30-06 on the market. how is it not a "true" 30-06 action?

I'd say, by the look of things here, that it is a heckuva lot more popular than some would realize!Just because us rifle loonies don't go crazy on it doesn't mean the rest of the World doesn't hunt with and shoot with it.
I have rifles in other calibers I like more, but I own abot 5 in .308 - gotta be a reason for that!!
Cat

When Kimber announced the 30-06 in their new 8400 long action I and other rifle enthusiasts were disapointed that the 06 had been put in that big action. We feel that the smaller, lighter and neater 84M action could have been lengthened and chambered for the 06 and its siblings.

The 8400 action will take the 375 H&H. Its bigger than the 84M all around.

One reason the 308 is popular is that I bought one in the 84M Montana. I would have got a 30-06 instead if it had been chambered in a lengthened 84M.

first of all, i'm the one who claimed above that speed kills...

if it doesn't, we can all stop worrying about availability of primers and powder and use a slingshot on our deer...

bows and archery hunting have been mentioned by a couple of posters by way of argument...
please post details of your 200 yd bow kills...
and yes, for most who hunt with a bow, speed is treasured...

and let's look at the title of this thread again...
Subject: Re: Why isn't the 308 more popular?

my answer to that question is that it could only be more popular than it is if it had the velocity of a mag .30 with the handling and recoil attributes of the 30-30...

deer were never mentioned in tho original post, but in full acknowledgment that they are the primary species for most hunters i mentioned that faster bullets kill faster...
i specifically mentioned the .243, and i'll stand by that...
the .220 swift was thrown up in response, and i'll even stand by it as a cartridge that, when used on deer, will generally put them on the ground quicker than the .308 with most 150-180 grain bullets...
FWIW i do not consider deer to be big game per se... i count them as medium game at best, and have been involved in culling operations in which they were shot as vermin... and a varmint rifle is appropriate for that...

in a subsequent post i mentioned that, IMO, the .300 winchester was the most business like cartridge available for big game hunting...



makes me wonder just what we're arguing about...

Must be a slow news week. You guys crack me up.

Carefully, look into this big jar of pickles and tell me why the green ones aren't more popular.

.308W-.30-06-.300WM and deer? How far can you shoot with consistent accuracy? Once you overstep your ability the extra speed of one over the other is wasted and meaningless.

The .308W will out run the majority of us.

Ahhhh, which shade of green are you referring to?

I just don't like a rifle that weighs much under 7.5 lbs with the scope, and beleive me I have tried........... I also don't like to haul them around much when they start exceeding 9.5 lbs.

That's funny.

.308 is boring, is the reason. It's one of those cartridges that is used as a reference point, but most guys seem to want to bracket around it... I mean, I can excited about a 7mm-08, 338 Fed, or REALLY excited about my .358... but .308? Bo-ring!

:-)

(somewhat tongue in cheek; I own a couple now and have owned several others)

I had a savage99 in 308 it was so accurate it was scarie,I used it to head shoot deer up to 100 yds and never missed or lost one, but like a dumbazz I sold it to get a 7mm08 which I missed three deer as close as 50 yds to 100 yds the first year I hunted with it(shoulder shots not head). the first shot from a cold barrel was always a flier the rest would group under an inch. I tried sighting it in on a cold barrel but the flyer would be in any direction. so I sold it and used my old reliable 30-06 and kicked my azz for selling my 99.

If I can get some shooting time in, I hope to be bored to death with this one!
[img][IMG]http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m238/Kevin_Teed/LVSF308.jpg[/img][/img]

That's sweet!!

Truth is, if I were gonna just flush everything, or almost everything, and buy all new rifles... I think I'd keep my .325 Montana, get a Montana in .308, and just be done with the whole shebang as far as hunting...

Except, I might have to go 7mm-08 or 338 Fed <g>....

Your never too old to learn I guess...Hell I thoght the .308 was one of the most popular cartridges in the world...I guess the internet is the exception, but everyone else knows I'm right!

Thanks, Jeff.
I did flush everything. Now down to a .223, .308, .338-06.
Funny thing is, I don't feel like I lack anything. (Though I would like to get a #1 RSI in 7X57 and a new FWT in .30-06 and a Cooper JSR in .22 mag and Sako .222 and a ........! )

Thats a good looking 700 Teeder... Who did the stock?


For the record, I could live the rest of my days with a Kimber 84 in 308, and another one in 260. If I planned on Africa, or big bad Bears in AK then I'd add a 375 H&H.

Since I got my Montana in 308 I've wondered what I'm doing with all the others except the 375HH. But I haven't sold any of them either.

That actually makes a LOT of sense. A guy with a good .308 or .30-06 is set for most game.

Then he'd need a varmint rifle and a big rifle for real big, nasty stuff if he wanted to go for that... But for most, the .308/.30-06 would do just fine.

Regards, Guy

Thanks.
That's a TI stock.

Speed IS treasured by bowhunters, FOR FLATTER TRAJECTORY, for easier range estimation. An arrow kills by cutting holes in lungs and cutting blood vessels. A faster arrow will just cut faster, not more.

A 358 win. or a 35 whelen, neither are speed demons, kill pretty darn quick. Several people on here can attest to that. One of the fastest deer kills I've witnessed was with a 308. One shoulder and a hole in the lungs, deer made one jump and died.
Just how much faster could a 300 mag have killed that deer?

At my range the 308 is very popular, especially from the long range bench areas.
I have seen many 308 rifles from various shooters put up 300 yard 1 1/2" groups.

For anyone to say that the .308W is no longer popular or not as popular as it once was is futile. There may be new cartridges that you read about in the rags, but I can't imagine a rifle Manufacturer not selling just as many in .308 today as they historically have. The .308 is a beautiful killing machine as are many others...

The local shop has a slightly used Montana in .308 for 800.00 and I'll be checking it out later today........


CLB

And riflemen use speed for what purpose???

makes no difference if you are a rifleman, or an archer, or both... speed is essential to the process....

this thread is not about what kills game, per se, it is about why the .308 is not more popular than it is...
Re: Why isn't the 308 more popular?

the .308 could only be more interesting if, with normal bullet weights, it gained speed without adding more recoil...

the .300 short magnums are a prime example of what grabs most peoples attention... the hype about their speed, accuracy, and lack of recoil exceeded the expectations of most...it's hard to argue with the market share that they've grabbed though, or the fact that 60-80 per cent of new big game rifles on the shelf at the store are chambered for them...

no where in this thread will anyone find any claim by me that the .308 winchester, or a yew self bow, for that matter, lacks killing potential...

a really fast .30 though, or a 300+ fps compound grabs the attention of most, and is more interesting, to boot.....

While I�m not a gun writer I do have an opinion�

While the .308 is a great round� and I do have one in a AR10, when I was making my original choice I chose the 30-06� because I believed it to have just a little more potential than the. 308.

That said a short action was not a consideration and while I heard the accuracy of a .308 was better than a 30-06� I figured I would not notice the difference.

To Sum it up it�s not that the 308 is not popular� it just competes with the most popular 30 cal in the world.

For what it's worth...

Readers' Choice:
The Most Popular Centerfire Rifle Cartridges
(Based on Page Views)

Urchin Web Stats





1. .308 Winchester - The .308 is one of the best selling cartridges in North America and the world (#5 on most lists), so it is no surprise that it interests many readers. It is the premier all-around cartridge for short action rifles.

2. .270 Winchester - The thousands of page views garnered by my article "The Great .270 Winchester" shows that interest in this classic all-around cartridge remains high. It is #3 on most North American sales lists, and it is popular all over the world. The .270 has been the standard of comparison for long range hunting cartridges for three quarters of a century, and it may be the best balanced all-around + long range hunting cartridge ever devised.

3. .30-06 Springfield - In sales, this is the most popular hunting cartridge in North America, and it is one of the elite worldwide cartridges. Many experts regard it as the best all-around hunting cartridge in the world. The .30-06 is in use on every continent where big game is hunted, so it is no surprise that its article gets a lot of page views.

4. .45-70 Government - The interest shown in this cartridge by the readers of Guns & Shooting Online came as quite a surprise. My article "The Good Old .45-70" must have been well named, as it has gotten a great many page hits. The .45-70 is, indeed, a very good old cartridge, and the most popular big bore in North America.

5. .30-30 Winchester - The .30-30 is one of the top selling rifle cartridges in North America (#1 to #4 on the sales lists, depending on which list you read). Interest in the cartridge remains high, probably partly due to its romantic association with the Old West, and partly because it is one of the best 200 yard deer and medium game cartridges ever designed.

6. 7mm Remington Magnum - The 7mm Rem. Mag. is the most popular belted cartridge in North America, number 7 on most ammunition sales lists. It is a fine all-around cartridge, deserving of its world-wide popularity. So it is not surprising that my article "Long Range Power: The 7mm Remington Magnum" regularly gets thousands of page views.

7. .223 Remington - This cartridge owes its popularity to its adoption by the USA and NATO as a standard military round. But it is also a fine, accurate, varmint cartridge and a pleasure to shoot at the range. Ammunition is widely distributed and inexpensive. The .223 (5.56mm NATO) is #2 on most sales lists and the top selling .22 centerfire rifle cartridge in the world.

8. .270 WSM - The .270 WSM has apparently taken the lead in the short magnum sweepstakes, at least among the readers of Guns and Shooting Online. This is not a surprise, as it is probably the most useful of the breed, and the only one that isn't simply a duplicate of another cartridge.

9. .300 Win. Mag. - The world's most popular .300 Magnum is the Winchester version, which is in the top 10 on most sales lists. This popularity is evidenced by the strong interest shown in this cartridge by Guns and Shooting Online readers.

10. .243 Winchester - The .243 is one of the lightest recoiling, long range, medium game cartridges in the world. It is also a capable varmint cartridge. The .243 is a very popular cartridge worldwide (number 6 on most lists in North America). It deserves the interest that its article receives.

I guess I am kind of surprised that any of the short magnums made the list. Although I have a 300WSM and I like the rifle, continued popularity in the face of rising ammunition prices is quite surprising. (When he can find them)Bubba can still go buy a box of inexpensive Rem Core lock 30-06 shells from WalMart and kill any deer he can hit with them. The 300WSM and 270WSM shells sure seem to be a lot more expensive.

I absolutely love the 308. After that the 260.


Barrel life on the 308 and 06 are what gets my attention. And efficiency.

Once you step off the 308 and 06 table land of ballistical numbers and off the cliff to the bigger boomers, it is the law of diminishing returns that takes over. At least for the stuff I hunt anyhow.

Sure would like a 45/70 someday though!

The things Montana Marine is doing with his 30/06's is impressive.

Yes indeed! I think the 260 is the single most amazing round in the entire world for small arms.

When the 7-08 was introduced, I believe it hurt the .308 cartridge. Why buy a >308 when a 7mm-8 has less recoil, and the ballistics are better? .308 will always be around for the old-timers that love it, but will not be as popular like it use to be. IMO

WHY?

Because people think they need MORE power like to be able to kill an elk @ 1000 yards, you know, just in case...

good bullet construction and good shot placement will do it more often than not

a 308 win is all i own and aside from Grizz on this continent, i dont feel undergunned

OoohWe my Sauer LightWeight .308 shoots BUGHOLES.............it is indeed so popular to me during the rifle season I can't leave it behind she's always in the SKB double!

I shot my first big game animal with a 308. It was a caribou when I was 10 years old. I have shot a lot of moose and caribou with them since. I shot one black bear as well and he went down quickly.

My father is a shorter, stocky guy and I guess he gravitated to the 308 Win. We never were tempted by 30/06 and went to 300 Win Mag after it was popularized in Alaska in the 1980's. The 308 draws no flies and has no problems; and does well in any situation.

Many classic setups have been made in the 308 and they continue.
People have mentioned the 788 in 308 and the Savage 99 in 308.
The Remington 660 was a classic in 308. Kimber Little Sky in 308 is a contemporary classic. Winchester made both the 88 and the 100 in 308. Browning has the BLR in 308 for a long time. Ruger had that model 77 international with a full length stock and now has those short barreled frontiers. Those Tikkas are nice in 308. Weatherby has the Vanguard Varmit special in 308 and its a winner as well. Recently that new Remington SPS tactical with the cool fluted barrel is handy nice and very accurate. A great sheep rifle.

It appears that the 308 has always found a market for the handy guns that work in the woods or on the farm.

Sincerely,
Thomas

HAHAHA! That's too funny . I have three .308's ... I guess you could say there is some overlap in my arsenal ... a Win 88, Sav 99 and a LH Sav Am Classic. But, I also have a few other rifles chambered for other cartridges lying around too. Variety is the spice of life.