Custom rifles? I read too many references to custom rifles these days that only apply to wood stocked rifles. I take exception to this description. If I select the action, trigger, barrel, base metal, recoil pad, caliber, rings and scope and install the whole works on a fiberglass stock of my choice, with a length of pull to my desire, how is this not a custom rifle? Yes, a wood stock is more expensive and takes more time to fit and finish but most custom wood stocks are simply mounted in duplicating machines and formed from some "existing" pattern anyway. What is so custom about that? If every component of a rifle is personally selected, it sounds custom to me.

257,

I have never gotten that impression from reading the contents of this board. There seems to be more talk about wood stocks now, but in recent past just about every custom project I read about on this board was tucked into the composer's synthetic of choice. Go back 6 months to a year and read was people were doing back then. Still more talk here about McM's than wood.

257
You are correct, only wood stocked rifles can be called customs. Plastic is not classy enough to be called custom. There is no room here for opinion either, this is fact. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
art

was not referring to this board but the various magazines I read and a recent article by Barsness (my favorite) in handloader or rifle, not sure which one. again, I am not knocking wood stock, absolutely love them, but most come from duplicates anyway. I do not see putting 70% of the cost of a custom rifle into the "handle". I think the top fiberglass stocks are overpriced too but they are necessary. speaking of the mcmillans and brown precisions here and they are top quality, even if they are over priced. remember, it is fiberglass, comes out of a can from the hardware store, not select walnut.

Bob257,





I think this will help, check it out. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



web page

Please let me see if I understand this correctly.



I just received a new, I guess it isn't custom, .22-250 Ackley from Gordy Gritters, the WINNING 1000 yard gunsmith. The action was blueprinted to a gnat's ass using Gre-Tan tooling, the barrel is a Krieger 4/3 contour and the stock is a pillar bedded (twice-glassed) McMillan Classic gray & white gel-coat swirl stock. The scope bases were glassed to the receiver (for a perfect fit) and the Leupold rings were lapped. The scope is a "special assembly" (industry insiders only) Leupold 6.5-20 with a special 1/16" dot. And this isn't custom or probably even good.



On the other hand, Bubba Schmuch (Yiddish for dick) can rasp together a wood stocked rifle on a Model 1894 Mauser and it is "Custom."



My personal opinion of wood stocks is that on a quiet night you can hear them warp. On a quiet rainy night, you can hear them rot. Yeah they are pretty, but when I go to the Yukon, the Kalahari, gawdawful-cold Eastern Montana or even here in the rain forests of Oregon, I trust a great glass stock to get me my game.



If that makes me not an armchair aesthetic who has the honor of owning a "custom" rifle; so be it



Anyway, I'm truly delighted that I now understand. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



By the way, the feature article on my not-custom Gordy Gritters .22-250 Ackley will be in the July 2004 issue of Varmint Hunter Magazine. It may be of interest to non-custom guys.



Steve

LOL x 10!!!!!!!!!!

BTW, don't you think that those gals looks awfully happy for being, ah, well, for being OTR? I mean all that bloating, cramps, fatigue, and even breast tenderness can really get a girl down.

Jeff

What twist is that POS(grin) and are 75gr A-Maxes on the menu?

I'm getting ready to box up a S/S 700 223 to have an 8" twist PacNor slammed on it in 223AI,for that very projectile.

Curious here...............

Stick,

My .22-250 POS has a 14-twist. I know I'm just gonna love 40-grain Ballistics at 4,500+ and 50s at 4250 fps.

I have a few friends in very low places and I snagged onto some loading data that was for "inside the factory" only. Proprietary stuff, but a well-known manufacturer recently tested the .22-250 Ackley for their handloading manual (no, I'm not going to reveal the source. Anyway, they got the velocities I'm quoting without exceeding the SAAMI maximum allowable chamber pressure for the standard .22-250 Remington. I just had to build a gun and find out for myself.

By the way, the manufacturer is going to use a watered-down version of the data. Consumer liability, I guess.

Steve

I've built two 14" twist 22-250AI's and those speeds jive with my findings ala Re-15 and their 26" tubes.

It's a Swift,with a prettier case and a smidge more capacity. Ain't much not to like about that.................

Stick,

I agree.

Steve

I own a few McMillans and High Techs but I would be game for one of Acrabond's laminate stocks. That beautiful piece of art scrolling across the top of my computor screen as their banner sure is nice. I'm sure a properly cured and finished stick of wood could hold out to warpage if done right as Sitka deer has pointed out to me. That said I'm a fence straddler of sorts, the word custom is truly subjective.

MtnHtr

dogzapper: <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It's a shame to give that away for free...Personally, I don't like glass, but I like the phrasing... Can you "watch" glass depreciate?

Jaywalker

257Bob

You described a custom rifle as far as I am concerned. However, you just didn't describe my type of custom rifle. I'm not into tupperware and stainless and I feel best when the rifles I use are made on a pre-64 Model 70, Mauser 98, or 1903 Springfield. Does that make me wrong and you right or vice-versa? I don't feel that way at all, it's just our preferences in custom rifles are different. Everyones preferences are a little different usually and it's good it is that way as far as I am concerned.

BTW I also prefer brunettes to blondes, or at least I used to. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Right now I guess I prefer grey hair to either blondes or brunettes, or at least I better!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
She actually has the only synthetic stocked rifle in the safe, a Remington 721 in 30-06 with a Rimrock stock. Maybe she is the only smart one in the house!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As far as Mr. Barsness's article, if it's the one I think it was, I really thought he gave a fair amount of coverage to both types of custom rifles in his article. He talked about highly accurate rifles made with synthetic stocks as well as wood stocked ones. I really enjoyed the article.

I have found this particular site has more people using the type of custom rifles that you described than most other forums do. I enjoy reading and seeing pictures about them, they just aren't my cup of tea. Part of the reason is that they wouldn't do any better in the types of hunting I do than the wood and blue steel ones I use presently. I'm sure others have very good reasons for prefering them though.

I can admire the beauty of a fine wood stock and appreciate the craftsman that took hours to carve a work of art. It would pain me beyond words to hunt with one of those jewels. Sure would be nice to have just one bragging rifle to sit back and look at. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But when i fell on my last hunt and scratched up my rifle stock, I sure was happy it was a HS Precision POS and not one of my McMillans <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Are rifles tools or jewels? I don't know, i just hate when they get all banged up.

Sorry dogzapper,

Hard lesson to learn, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> especially after the rifle is built. However I have a suggestion, if you have the stock cut off short, then get one of those pretty pieces of light colored wood and put in between the stock and the recoil pad maybe you could get away with calling it a semi-custom. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Now my own entry into the world of custom firearms was a British #4MK1, the barrel was painstakingly loped off to roughly 20 inches, the orginal WOOD stock was reconfigured to kinda match the new barrel length and hand rasped, filed, and sanded with the best tools Harbor Freight had to offer. The length of pull was painstakingly adjusted to fit the guy that had the gun before the guy that I got it from got it. A new blade style front sight was installed/glued/brazed/welded (well it hasn't come off yet) mostly on top and out towards the front end of the barrel on a ramp. The most labor intensive part of the customization was obviously rubbing the stock out with the best extra virgin olive oil Big Lots had, this really enhances the natural beauty of the WOOD stock. The chamber was also reamed out to 303 ebbs with the best reamer the guy could borrow. Of course no custom weapon would be complete without a new sling and sling swivels so they also now adorn this custom piece of hardware. Like a true custom fanatic though it's evolution is not complete yet, and may never be, next I think a recoil pad is in order. I saw a really nice camo job at Kmart the other day that you just stick onto the butt plate, WOW. It will also shoot angle of deer, well elk or moose for sure. Yes sir when I hold it in my hands and admire it and think of all the work, expense, love, and nurturing, that obviously went into it's complete teardown and reconstruction. I think of what a lucky bastard I am <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> and how that was the best $40 I ever spent.

Keep your chin up guy, your turn will come.

If it makes you feel any better, sounds like a damn nice truck gun son. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Just because a rifle comes from a gunsmith with a new barrel and an aftermarket synthetic handle doesn't necessarily make it a custom rifle. Conversly just because a rifle comes from the shop of a gunsmith wearing fiberglass doesn't mean that it isn't a custom creation.

I've commissioned both. A rifle I recieved a year ago was the former, and was something I was glad to see go down the road. Now I'll use a rifle that is partially complete right now to illistrate the latter.

This particular rifle is being built on a LH model 70 classic action. The action will be blueprinted which will include: Squareing the action face and recoil lugs, recutting the reciever threads square to the face of the action, machining of the locking lugs and their seats, recutting the boltface, bushing and recutting the firing pin hole to center, recontouring the firing pin itself, timing the safety, recontouring the top of the reciever to mate perfectly to custom bases to accomodate Talley rings, stoning and slicking the action, polishing the feed ramp, replacing the extractor with one made of spring steel, bushing or ripinning the bolt release and trigger group to eliminate slop, and an athstetic polishing...... The action will be matched with custom bottom metal and handmade guard screws and will be pillar bedded into the stock. Finally, the cut rifled barrel will be contoured to facilitate proper balance.

All this metal work will be put into a McMillan stock and yes I consider it custom. Who wouldn't?

Chuck

Dogzapper
Sorry to be the one to point out the shortcoming in your noncustom, but it is pretty obvious... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> As a point of reference, everyone knows a wood boat is the prettiest thing afloat and does a lot of things no other material can do.

Of course, rotting, warping and feeding marine worms are three of those things. And sails have it all over every other propulsion device in quiet and fuel economy.

So I drive a tupperware boat with twin diesels. But a boat is just a tool and very different from a rifle which is clearly either a piece of Art or an eyesore. Again, simply stating fact, there is no room here for opinion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The fact is there are wood stocks being built which will not warp, will not rot and will not adversely affect accuracy. They are not laminated either. The good old boys in the gunmakers guild resist glass-bedding, forget about anything in the way of a synthetic finish.

Their resistance to reason is a large part of why wood stocks are being replaced by plastic. The work was done to find good finishes for a vast array of uses, but stockmakers would not and will not hear of it. They continue to inlet to a gnatsass and minimize bedding compound in wood. They continue to use oils with nothing to seal underneath them. They continue to look down their noses at all that do anything different.

Had they accepted better finishes and modern techniques they would not have grown the snob chasm that exists. They probably would not be able to charge the snobs, their usual clients, as much either... Just a few random thoughts to consider...
art

...perhaps tom turpin's book, 'modern custom guns,' may shed some light on this issue (although it may be more accurate to use the term 'exhibition guns' to describe what appears to be more art than tool)...

...just some thoughts...

...te...

257 Bob, Dogzapper, all,

My Webster's New Collegiate dictionary defines Custom Built as "built to individual specifications." Nowhere does it mention synthetic, or wood, or metal for that matter. If built to individual specifications, it is custom by definition.

Having said that, I think it is safe to say that most gun admirers usually think first of fine walnut stocked as examples of custom guns but that doesn't disqualify synthetics by any means.

There are two rules when dealing with fine wood stocks. Rule 1 is that wood will move; Rule 2 is that you can't do anything about Rule 1. However, synthetic stocks are not immune from movement - they just move from different causes. Wood movement is caused by moisture. Synthetic movement is caused by temperature variations.

It is also true, as someone already reported, that some custom makers shun fiberglass resins like the plague. They avoid it both in inletting and in stock finishes. That group usually will also have nothing to do with machine turning a stock from the blank. That's fine with me if that's what they want to do.

However, there is a much larger group of makers that do use resin sealers for the wood and use some glass bedding compound. They also use resin based stock finishes, usually mixed with some form of oil. Often they will use hand rubbed oil as a top coat(s) but only after the stock is really finished with resin.

I presently have a custom 458 Lott DGR being built. I can assure you that this rifle will have enough glass in the bedding to build a fair sized yacht. I do that not because the maker is incapable of tight inletting. Rather, I do it for strength and anyone that has shot one knows the Lott is a kicker.

If it is built to individual specifications, it is custom - regardless of the components used.

Tom

Other than length of pull how many variations of fit are allowed by makers of synthetic stocks? Can you specify cast (either on or off) toe in or toe out, cant, specific grip arc radius, diameter of grip, forend taper or profile or a number of other dimensions which may be accomodated in a true custom wood stock. Granted you can add a bit of dimension with body filler but modification of a synthetic stock is largely limited by its' outer skin. Which isn't to say a good glass man couldn't do these things only that it would be very time consuming and I haven't seen any sign of true custom fitting with this type of stock yet.

As has been previously stated custom is in the eye of the beholder but a fine walnut (e.g.) stock that is properly made to fit only you is a work of art. It also costs a heck of a lot more and may not be necessary to your needs. I like good wood but may make up a synthetic for my own use one day. I'll carry it in the canoe where it can serve a dual purpose.

Tsquare
I trust you recognize the location of my tongue for much of what I wrote... but you make some statements that I have proven to be flat wrong.

"There are two rules when dealing with fine wood stocks. Rule 1 is that wood will move; Rule 2 is that you can't do anything about Rule 1."

While in general this is true of the vast majority of wood and wood stocks... but there is something that can be done that will produce an absolutely watertight finish. It involves either cyanoacrylate or epoxy sealing the stock and any finish atop that. Either can be used as is without oil atop, but they look more classic with oil.

"but only after the stock is really finished with resin."

Sad fact is that even the most highly touted of the resin and oil finishes (which includes every last "resin" finish I have seen) are only mediocre at keeping water out of wood. I have taken hundreds of 1" walnut cubes and finished them with every type of finish I have found that claimed to seal wood. If oil is in the mix it will soak up atmospheric and liquid water faster than bare wood. If solvents are in the mix (required by resins) they will evaporate through the finish leaving holes water molecules can run through without even ducking their little heads.

"Ease of application" is almost always the same thing as "compromised sealer."
art

stocker
"I'll carry it in the canoe where it can serve a dual purpose." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
art

Sitka: That was intended for your enjoyment. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Most boat paddles I've seen are wood <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />.

Chuck

The quality wooden paddles are only for traditionalists and people of exceptional discrimination. They should be be made of ash or wild cherry and custom fitted to your particular J-stroke or feather stroke as you prefer. Joe Canoedeler uses spruce, plastic, aluminum and glass/carbon fiber paddles. Guys with spruce paddles are of no significance and are merely confused about life and quality goods. They generally paddle from both sides of the canoe, switching after each stroke.
There is hope for the ones that use the synthetics and aluminum shafts. They at least believe they are on the right track and are trying to improve themselves. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Sitka deer,

I did fully understand the location of your tongue in some of your comments.

When I spoke of resin stock finishes, I was referring to epoxy resins. Sorry that I was less than clear on that point. I'm not familiar with cyanoacrylate but will certainly take your word for it.

I am sure that you are correct that it is possible to finish a wood stock with modern materials that is fully watertight finish. At one time, David Miller made a few stocks from English walnut that had been impregnated with epoxy. The pores of the wood had actually been filled with epoxy forced into the wood under pressure. I'm sure those stocks were totally watertight. However, the resultant stocks were heavy as lead and ate tools like stainless steel. They were though as close to absolutely stable as wood will ever get I suspect. They also looked really good with a little tung oil on top.

As with so many things in life, everything is generally a compromise. Whether that's acceptable or not is an individual decision. For me, I'll take the failings of beautiful walnut for my stocks (mostly) although I do have several synthetic and laminated wood stocks that work just fine.

Tom

Tom
Not to belabor a point or nitpick here, just making sure that my statements are perfectly clear, as there is tremendous confusion in general about stock finishes. There are NO finishes being marketed to stockmakers that seal even close to completely. Spray versions of epoxy are only fair sealers, at best. "Modified resins and oils" in a finsih are not modified to help them seal. Epoxy does not play nicely with oils and leaves channels where the escaping solvents (needed to get the oil to mix) traveled.

There are some great stockmakers making watertight stocks and being sneered at for it. But I am with you that wood has features plastic can never hope to have.

Where my snob streak comes out worst is when I see the laminate stocks... and I am bad! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> They are uglier than sin, heavier than gold, not as good as sealed wood, cannot be checkered properly and just flat scream redneck... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> there I said it and I feel better now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
art

Stocker
"Guys with spruce paddles are of no significance and are merely confused about life and quality goods. They generally paddle from both sides of the canoe, switching after each stroke."

I have read allegory before... but that Sir, was pretty stinking profound! Thank you, and I mean that! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
art

Art:
Tried to send you an e-mail but was told your address was not valid. Have you made a change or did my computer screw up?

Sitka Deer - That was not meant by Stocker as allegory, but referred to inexperienced solo paddlers who cannot keep a canoe tracking in a straight line without switching the paddle stroke from one side to another. The properly executed "J" stroke remedies the problem by pushing the paddle away from the gunwhale at the end of the stroke to offset the power portion of the stroke.

I have a few wood paddles, one of which is burly maple that has a curly grain.

Regards, sse

SSE,Sitka Deer in an earlier post did talk about paddles.I use a Grey Owl Sugar Island.The indian stroke is more effective than the J-stroke.Paddle a prospector on her side and you don't have to bother with either.

It is a great allegory,people who can't keep in a straight line ,this way and that.

tracker - Its all about the path of the paddle . <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Regards, sse

SSE
I grew up trapping 'rats, beaver, mink and otter from a canoe. Spent a ton of time in about every type canoe you can imagine, and some that have not even visited you in nightmares! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Spent enough time to get a dual-major degree with English lit on one side...

If you fail to see the higher implications in that statement you need to reread it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I am serious when I say I found some pretty deep stuff there... intentional or not...

Paddlers that cannot keep anything on track, never learned to do the basic things properly and spend all their time flailing away at the extremes of their course, unable to grasp the central theme of locomotion and control. The deft glide of the wrist that leaves Superman in his wake breaking spruce paddles is all about finesse. Must be a Zen thing... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Stocker
Same email since day 1 here... did you remove the "remove me first" part?
art

sse:

My Chestnut paddles are eastern maple and are very good paddles. The only fault with them is the laminated blades which I've had to reglue a couple of times after the varnish wore off from hard use and allowed the wood to soak up too much water. The epoxy finish that Sitka espouses would probably be very good on paddle blades as well as rifle stocks. These paddles are slender through the shaft and have nice shock reducing flex. I probably should have qualified my statement which might lead one to think only the two species I named were suitable. There are several good woods that I am aware of.

SSE <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />,Bill Mason.No actually it was taken from the Canadian Canoe, a local book.The author orginally from Ontairo,got upset enough seeing these plastic things on car roofs called canoes to write a short book.

Yeah, yeah, Bill Mason!!

OK, all you paddling guys, I love wood paddles, wood canoes, wood gun stocks, wood siding, wood golf clubs, wood legs, wood everything, who woodn't?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Regards, sse

Stocker I have used the epoxy on the oars of my tin boat, the oars came new with one thin coat of cheap finish that went away in less than a year. I sanded and warmend them up on a very hot day behind a glass that we use for hot beds in our garden in the spring the oars got pretty warm after most of the day under the glass, I then applied the epoxy(WEST SYSTEM) to the oars I did not bother to sand them afterwards just painted on another coat and called it good, worked pretty darn good. Those cheap spruce oars are hanging together pretty good.

Bullwnkl.