I know this is a gross oversimplification, but it seems that there was a major jump in the performance of firearms when twist rifling became common, allowing for the use of conical bullets. There was also a big jump after the advent of smokeless powders, but where is the next big jump going to come from?

It seems that given the parameters set now we need to work within the 65K PSI pressure limit for safe firing in modern weapons. I've read a bit about "self contained" cartridges that have no brass case, but I cannot see how that would be applicable in a sporting arm since the brass case serves not only to hold the powder but also to seal off the chamber from gas. What is the feasability of creating a breech loading sporting action that would reliably and repeatably seal off a chamber with 100% effectiveness?

Obviously projectiles have made great strides in recent years, but they still fall within the same parameters, i.e. they are copper/lead/alloy and of the same weight range.

Arms themselves are made of better materials, but still operate in much the same manner as they have for 100 years. Some of the best barrels are made using centuries old methods.

The area that I think will yield the biggest gains in performance will be propellants. There is a point at which modern propellants can no longer push a bullet faster since there is a limit to the rate at which gases can expand.

Given the restraints of weight and size for a sporting arm, where will technology take us in the future?

One big "recent" leap in technology has been in bullet construction. Better bullets have allowed the use of smaller calibers and light-for-caliber bullets to be used effectively on big game. It certainly doesn't mean bullets of traditional construction are not effective.....just that there are other options.

I hunted whitetail with a 100g Partition with my 260 AI this fall. The load crono'd 3,340 fps. I certainly would not have used this combination with a typical copper-jacketed bullet but was comfortable with the Partition at those speeds.

I've read here where posters have had good luck with elk size game using 25 cal and up with a good, premium bullet. The new bonded core Hornady bullets may end up being a very good whitetail bullet.

HogWild

I'm wanting to see bore coating technology,reach the upper echelon. Would love nothing more than to have a barrel of incredible interior smoothness,that defiantly resisted wear.

I think it's close..................

Bullet technology marches on as does powder and other componants. New and different cartridge designs are being developed, the most since the early to mid 1950's. Major technology will come very slowly to the civilian firearms industry....any one try Remingtons recent flop the eletronic wizz bang thing I believe it was called something like the Etoxic or some such nonsence. The real field to make changes in is Caliber like Rugers .204 and the Hornady 17 or Ruger 480. Simple change to fill a void that really has not exisited until some one made it. The fire arms industry will move slow, optics on the other hand can change dramaticly in a matter of months if there was a true demand. I also see the next jump in Technology going backwards, men going back to the old favorites the Win 94 Marlin 336 iron sights antique single shots with black powder. Men learning to stalk and hunt not just shoot from the hoods of their trucks. Technology will go both directions Super wizzbang and smoke and stalk. It's all good for the sport.

www.uspto.gov

patent number: 5,788,178

Guided bullet

Abstract
A small caliber laser-guided bullet having a self-contained guidance system is disclosed including on-board laser sensors and navigational circuits capable of detecting a laser target signature, determining the deviation of the bullet from an optimum projectory along which the bullet would impact a hostile target, and generating an electrical signal to piezo electric steering control surfaces to effect a change in the course of the bullet. The guided bullet utilizes a plurality of symmetrically-arranged laser sensor elements which are positioned about a longitudinal axis of the bullet. The laser sensor elements function to transmit optical radiation from the laser target beam to photo detector elements housed within the bullet. The electrical signals from the photo detector elements are then amplified and processed by semiconductor logic circuits to produce the functions required by the steering control surfaces to translate the bullet to the optimum trajectory. Electrical power for the guidance system is provided by a miniature lithium-polymer battery which is interconnected with the navigational circuits to produce the functions of the system. The guided bullet is fired from a precision, smooth bore weapon using a conventional expanding gas cartridge and is effective at ranges up to 3,000 meters and beyond.

Model 710 E-tronix? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Kecatt "Model 710 E-tronix" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Good one. You could just through the gun away when the batteries run out.

Stick, give Doug at Fit-4-duty a call about the bore coating. I stopped by his shop today and fondled a new ceramic(sp) that was so thin it looked as if the steel had just been bead blasted and left nekked. Doug said the coating could be applied to the interior of a bore, in fact he had a 870 that had 500 rounds down the tube and looked like it just had some gun case lint in the barrel. Give him a ring and pick his brain.
I may be taking a couple of my rifles down to him for ceramic coating of the bore.

Lots of COOL colors too, just don't let him sell you on the Tactical Teal <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

Darkside

One direction that has "room for development" is the use of sabots. The larger base area will extract
more energy from the gas. And the smaller diameter bullet can have a better BC.
Good Luck!

I'm of the opinion that it is the brass case as CAS mentioned. That is the weak link. That is what lets go first under pressure. Steel cases have their own problems and since an action has to be "loose" enough to work the case and what pressure it will stand is the limiting factor now. What to replace it with? I don't know. Maybe magnetic levitation.

BCR

Someone at AR by the name of Sabot claims to be developing a sabot that will allow an increase in velocity with less recoil and powder. This sabot will not be of an extreme diameter change but just step a .338 perhaps to .308.

There have been no samples offered yet.

Rifle scopes by...Intel?

This technology is already out there, just not within the reach of mere working folks yet.

Combine an electronic scope, a rangefinder, a GPS, and QuickLoad software, and we got a scope that adjusts POA for you. Plug the scope into your computer and you can upload your new load data.

The built-in Doppler for doping the wind will cost a little extra...

nothing "major" has happened since mauser designed the 98 in '98! what can we really do now that could not be done then in regards to hunting?

I don't agree 257Bob. We have had wonderful new fabrics for clothing that will out perform the natural fibers we used to have. We have better bullets than ever before, we have better powder and so many choices it blows ones mind. We have better steels for our actions and better quality barrels. We have better quality scopes. The list goes on and on.

I guess I would say that we stand on the shoulders of giants. If you compare a mass-production rifle of today to let's say a commercial Mauser M98 from a century ago, we have a lot of technology in addition to a rifled barrel and smokeless powder.

First, foremost and mostly not noticed is the manufaturing technology used to make the rifle, sights and ammunition and the resulting cost to produce and distribute.

We are not quite at the stage of designing a rifle in a software program, pressing <enter> and lo and behold a rifle emerges from the "building peripheral". There are some machnies that can do that, but we haven't seen them in the commercial rifle market yet. I expect they will appear in the military market first.

We have a spectrum of cartridges and components, but I like to quote Jeff Cooper when he says "We don't need better cartridges, we need better rifles". What would would the characteristics of a better rifle be?

I would like to see a lighter, faster, lower-recoil rifle with embedded optical sights that also permit modular upgrade. Power level would be selectable for the game.

There has been work done on military assault rifles with caseless ammunition. An interesting finding has emerged: the brass cartridge case also carries heat away from the chamber, and caseless ammo will cook-off in rapid fire mode without heat control.

My opinion is that the .308 Winchester (of 7.62X51mm) with the powders and bullets available today is the best hunting technology around. The .300 bore kills better than the smaller stuff, and the .308 Win of today is the equal of the .300 Magnum of a century ago.

jim dodd

Most everything that's been said so far reiforces my thought that the shooting industry has a very difficult time thinking "Out of the Box". Yeah, we have solid expanding bullets now, and some powders that are tailored to a specific family of cartridges, but we are still operating within the same framework that has existed for 100+ years. Basically all the innovation in the last century has been refinements to existing products (processes, materials) rather than breakthroughs.

The corrollary to this is,........ do we really want or need change? Is the lack of innovation due to lack of need or lack of desire? Who knows? If neccesity is the mother of invention, maybe there is no neccesity.

Heck, maybe what I should be thinking about is using less technology and making the performance jump in my hunting skills.

CAS,

One thing I recommend is to go to Gunsite or one of the good shooting schools and take their rifle course. They will equip you with the skills so that if you see it you can hit it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

jim

My bet is on recoil reduction. Brakes are a nice concept, but too many folks just won't put up with the additional noise (like me) and hate them as a result.

Sooooo, an innovation that significantly lessons felt recoil and does not affect accuracy OR add significant weight.

I think some of this discussion focuses on what we call sport. We consider it sport to hunt. Thus, we desire the animal to have some level of ability to either evade or illude the hunter to keep the activity sporting. We also limit ourselves to certain technology.....no hunting at nights.....no artificial lights......no electronic calls....hunting only on certain days.....you can probably list a few too. Hunting is not just about killing, though, killing is a large part of the sport. If we wanted efficiency, we'd not hunt. We'd just buy all our meat at the supermarket. We have efficiency of meat gathering down pat. You see, our guns were once the primary and often, only way to get meat. A better more efficient way has moved into our lives. Only, efficiency wasn't a new bullet, new steel for the barrel or solid expanding bullets. We see efficiency on Friday nights after work. The hunter-gatherers shuffling around the grocery store being efficient about gathering their food. Hunters are hold-outs of a previous era when hunting was essential. Sadly, hunting isn't essential now to most people and participating in this "sport" on a truly modern basis isn't our goal. We do this for sport, not to be the most modern or to have the most efficient killing tool. If we wanted to be more efficient we would participate in the hunt much like the military conducts its excercises and the "sport" in hunting would be gone.

Jim, I've considered that very things many times, and if my Mexico trip falls through, and it looks as though it will I may be headed that way next year.

Rolly,

Great post.

Rolly,
I think you said it as best as it could be said!
Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!
To God Alone Be The Glory!

Sound reduction would be nice but most likely a by product of a totally different projectile accelerator. Wonder if we could shorten the miles-long barrel of a particle accelerator and use some kind of magnetic pulse along a rail or tube to launch a soft iron, small diameter, expanding nose, needle length bullet.

Rolly:

You hit the nail on the head. I read once that it has been said: "A hunter does not hunt game, he hunts himself." This is very true for me. I live in a world of "girly men" who do not know how to fix a flat tire, build a fire, or even cook a simple meal.

I need to get out of my comfort zone and work for my meat. Biggest problem with this country is that the citizens have no idea how their own meals are grown, milled, packaged, and shipped to the market.

I pity the people I meet in the "great outdoors" who bring the city with them in a super-duper RV w/ DVD and a Satelite dish. They are missing out on the best parts.

I take my kids camping in a tent. I teach my kids to ride a horse and work with a good dog. We don't have a TV or video games. I am building a Tree House for them this summer. Their friends from school beg to come over to our house so they can pick an apple from the tree and feed it to a horse. Giving a horse an apple should not be that unfamiliar.

I talked to a buddy last moth. He took 3 mules into the Sawtooth mountains of Idaho this season. He admitted that it took 3 days to get in, 3 days to get out and he only hunted elk for the 3 days in the middle. Never saw an elk. But he had tags for whatever he might run into. He got a good Mulie Buck and a Black Bear. The elk has become secondary. He said it was the time alone in the hills what he really needs. I know what he means.

I also agree that Jeff Cooper is right. We need better rifles, not better cartridge. Hell, what we really need is better woodsmen. Its the best woodsmen that get the game.

I am way off the subject now. I am done with my soapbox. Someone else can have it now.

Good Shooting.

BMT

Personaly I'd rather be on an ocean liner heading to Africa, for a 3 month walk in the bush, 100 years ago. If I had a choice I'd rather go back then foward.........10

I've always wondered if in states or for species with relatively low success, that if the same 10-15% of the hunters are taking 90% of the game. I assume this is true. I do know that in IN when the more doe permits were issued to reduce the herd that many more people took up hunting as it wasn't that hard for them to kill something.

I wear the synthetics too but still believe "good" wool is better than anything else out there. yes, bullets are better...that started with the nosler partition...but really, you can still do with a '98 in 7x57 anything that needs to be done in the deer woods. if I look at my gear, I am still using a bolt action rifle, not unlike the '98 and still limited to my personal skills when it comes to hitting the target. sure, we have better optics, and, excluding the long range crowd, hunting is still a +/- 200 yard affair. killing a deer is not a big deal, finding one, to your personal standards, is the challenge. I have seen 16 different bucks this year but have not fired a shot. (they were all really small).

Not meaning to piss in anyone's punchbowl because I enjoy the hunt above the technology by a loooooooong shot (pun intended <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), but the technology and innovations are part of what makes this country great and it's silly to expect (want?) it to go on in every other industry but not around hunting and shooting!

If the next guy wants to use his whiz bang gadgets to make him feel better while enjoying nature, then more power to him. I'm wondering how many sentimental folks are using scopes on their rifles, binoculars and rangefinders?

How many want to go back a hundred years to a time when market hunting damn near wiped out the game populations across our great country? When medical advancements were minimal? When you couldn't drive a truck to your favorite hunting spot? When hunting was necessary to stay alive rather than something viewed as a sport? Let's be honest, how many of us would be dead without modern medicine? My wife would have died shortly after the birth of our first child if this were 100 years ago. How about 500 years ago when the average life expectancy of a man was around 35? How many of us would be DEAD if we were living in these romantic times with rampant disease, dysentery and a general lack of regard for human life (not that the latter seems to have improved terribly)? Every time I hear someone wax eloquently about life in another age, I have the desire to invent a time machine to grant their wish. In most cases, if their wish were granted, they'd be dead within a year. Look at your gut for a couple minutes and really think about your ability (not just desire) to chase game around the mountains with a stick, knowing your life and possibly the life of your family depends on your skills to get close enough to game AND your skills as a marksman. Pick an era, do you think ANYONE who's life depended on making a shot would have turned down a better tool? Not likely.

Listen, I'm NOT for using every bit of technology out there to get the game for me. I don't even hunt my own property despite some excellent bucks (just ask Big Sky <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) because it's too easy. To me, it's not hunting. At least not what I view as hunting.

Personally, I'm happy to live in an age where hunting is primarily a sport vs. a necessity. It's what makes it fun. The technology surrounding us is what makes this possible. You can't have one without the other. Most folks eventually realize the sport is in the pursuit, not the killing. As a sportsman matures, he find ways to keep the hunt a challenge, whether they scale back on the technology or pursue craftier and/or larger critters.

While I have absolutely NO desire to snipe deer at a half mile, let alone a mile or 2, I certainly don't mind taking a 500 yard shot if circumstances are such that a closer shot isn't possible. Does that make me bad? If I use a rangefinder in the process am I less of a hunter than the guy who goes home empty handed? How about vs. the dude who guesses at the range and prays the shot will come close? I hunt hard. Damn hard at times. That's the reason I am successful. Of course, technology contributes but buying some gizmo never guaranteed a punched tag. My hunting partner brought a buddy along this year. We climbed 2500 vertical feet to our honey hole one morning and it paid off for me. His response as I stood over a dandy buck as he staggered up an hour behind me -- AND as I pointed out a 32" buck to him about 700 yards away was something along the lines of "great spot, but you can shove it up your ass. I'm never coming up here again!"

So anyway, put me in the camp of the innovative. Game Dept's or individuals can look at each bit of new technology and determine whether it is ethical or not, but don't stifle or scoff at good thinking!

Sorry. I'll try to stay off the soapbox now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

how about better, lighter entry level syn stocks at substantially less than bansner/mcmillan/etc prices?
of course, ever better optics. leupold's advancements in their high-end scopes will make mid- and lower-end scopes better, too, as the competition heats.

Ditto on Fish280s' stock comments.

Darkside

Hey Muley Stalker:

I think we just made the same point in two different ways. The point is: "technology that makes us better, safer, and/or healthier is great. technology that makes us softer, fatter, and lazier is not."

Both of my hunting rifles were designed before the turn of the 20th century. My tent, a canvas Coleman, has been around for, I suspect, 200 years. My Binoculars are top notch and are beyond what anyone ever carried to Africa in 1903.

My discomfort is directed at the kind of hunter who substitutes technology for practice and knowledge, who trades the sound of coyotes howling in the distance for a Star Wars DVD, AND THEN complains that the poachers got all the deer. I guess I would not pity him in the absence of the complaints and excuses.

I don't think the Long Range Hunters are necessarily bad. I respect the kind of practice and discipline it takes to be able to do what they do. And, I have never heard a "long ranger" blame an empty freezer on anything that was within his (or her, I guess) control. However, their type of hunting simply is not to my taste.

I also don't disagree with technology that allows me to compensate for "Shooting Hours" rules and modern realities of "crowded woods." The fact is that many hunters are limited to shoooting within 30 minutes of Sun up/down. This is combined with 6 day seasons that turns every buck into a nocturnal creature. The result is that the natural order and pace of the woods has been changed and a super quality light gathering scope allows me to compensate for these "artificial" conditions.

This is also the reason I savor a good Wild Boar hunt. The 365 day season reduces the numbers of hunters on any given day. This allows a more "natural" hunt. There is not a Crush of Humanity into the woods for 6 days. I can scout and not have a lot of work ruined by 36 pickups and atv's blowing through area on opening day.

By the way, I hope the next great leap in technology will be computer assissted GPS systems that map where you REALLY are and know the way back to the truck. That's what we really need.

All my best,

BMT <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Muley and BMT,

You guys both went exactly where I was headed when I asked the question. I do see products from all facets of life continually improving, yet I don't see it to the same degree in the shooting sports.

I am not sure that I'd buy any new technology, but I do wonder why greater leaps have not been made.

Imagine this, if we were not limited by the strength of a brass case, thereby allowing push pressures higher could we not drive the same bullets at the smae speeds with less powder and less recoil. Case in point, a 180gr 30cal bullet driven by 85gr of powder at 3200fps from a 9lb gun (very similar to my WBY loads) generates 38 ft-lbs of recoil. The same bullet driven by only 40gr of powder out of the same rifle would generate only 22 ft-lbs of recoil. And the cases would be smaller and weigh less to boot allowing a hunter/soldier/etc. to carry more cases.

It's going to be .... long, thin, magnums!

Yes, LTMs are coming and they will revolutionize the shooting
sports. They will add nothing to existing performance levels;
require tooling up for all new actions and ammo -- ergo, justifying
huge price increases across the board; and sweep everything
else off the gun stores' racks -- all while vacuuming
your wallets empty.

You heard it here.

Marketing -- not scientific advances-- is where to look for
the next "advances".

1b

a real advance would be to remove the belts off of the old "long mags" like the 7mm rem or 300 win. that would be an improvement to me as the would feed and fit in a magazine better. they offer no functional advantage.

I think that advances will come in the area of improved accuracy:

1) Laser rangefinder - Determines range to target.
2) Compact Radar - Determines wind velocity, and actual bullet path.
3) Micro-processor - Reads laser rangefinder, radar, and ammo specific ballistic info and adjusts scope turrets so bullet hits point of aim.

I think the next "jump" coming from more extensive CNC machined "stuff"
1) it is affordable to do and do for mass production
2) it does make a big difference when it comes to precise machines

I was pondering a one piece stock/barrel/scope etc so there is no problems where it all comes together.

It seems to me that 1/2 MOA rifles at Wally World should be common place in the next ten years at least, but is that really a "jump?"

Well count me among the old fashioned. Sure I use scopes, but on a 3006 and a .375H&H. And anyway Id rather hunt with a frontstuffer, or take a deer with my bow from 30 yrds or closer. I still know how to read a map, and dont much like driveing all the time. Anyway we are talking about modern hunting, not modern life.

Its true we have come a long way with wildlife conservation. But weve also lost much huntable land, and land available to the average guy is becoming less and less. Eventually hunting is going to be a rich mans sport, its getting that way already. When I was a kid my dad had no problems knocking on farmers doors. Now try finding a farm that aint some kinda conglomerate.

Oh I aint a hypocrite. I use scopes, gor-tex, binocs, heaters, pulleys, lanoline ass wipe, and maybe one day I'll buy a GPS. But I keep my shots moderate and aint all so worried about killing anymore. And sometimes I find myself yearning for a simpler time...............10

I like both ends of the technology spectrum. If you fear the advances in hunting equipment, remember that you can always escape to the past. When I grow weary of cutting edge rifles, I turn to my muzzleloader for solace.

I'd like to see a synthetic stock that actually feels and looks like wood, yet has all the benefits of a synthetic stock. Maybe biotechnology can help there. Biggest reason I have resisted moving to synthetics is, hey they are ugly in my book. I love wood stocks. What about iron that doesnt rust......some additive that maybe improves strength, yet prevents rust. Now that would be nice.

Aggie,

Iron that doesn't rust? It's called stainless steel, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> the only kind of guns I buy now.

stainless steel doesn't rust??? Not as readily, but it definitely will rust. Take a ss rifle out on the ocean for a week without any maintenance and you'll have a lovely surprise waiting for you when you're back (grin).

Thanks for the tip, Muley! I've never used my guns around salt water. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I recently had a S/S 308 quit shooting,due to corrosion,gunk,crap and [bleep].

The firing pin and it's spring were horribly gunked up and the striker shroud had enough rust within to slow it's locktime down to Wwinny speeds(grin).

Took all apart,as far as she would go and give it the what is super once over(Technical Term). Have put another 1,000rds through her since,with nary a glitch.

I've a collection of rusted S/S that would dazzle many.................

Theres one end of technology I love and thats ammo componants available to reloaders. And I really like the new bullets. Well.............maybe I'll stick around in 2004 for awhiles...............10

The next step will be laser guns, and the laser guns won't need any of the following: No long barrel with rifling, etc., no bullets, no cases, no powder nor primer, no bolt.

Laser handguns won't need sights, but laser guns to shoot at longer ranges will incorporate electronic sights enhanced for night shooting, and with "zooming" capabilities, as well as recording or taking pictures of the target. The sights will also incorporate "target acquisition" technology that can work through walls, vegetation, and other thin obstacles.

I cant wait for a scope with a range finder built in.as for caseless rounds.when i was in the army i was a tank driver.the 120mm main gun uses caseless ammo. the only thing left after firing was the "aft cap"about 6 inches of what would be a regular case.the rest of the case was made out of some thing that resembled cardboard.the round was also fired like the rem e-tronic.the concept of the e-tronic is not a bad idea.if it wasent for it being the only one out there and you could find ammo and beter selection of calb. i would buy one.some one had to make it first. is there any titanium rifle barrels out there?