In our post about the water buffalo hunt, Charlie Sisk and I forgot to mention that I finally designed a real wildcat cartridge (as opposed to the fictitious B-29 which appeared several years ago in HANDLOADER). Charlie has been after me for several years to invent one, since every gun writer has to.

The round is the 9.3mm Barsness-Sisk, which we have decided should be shortened to the 9.3 BS. It's the .350 Remington Magnum necked up, all the way to .366". This may sound useless, but that never prevented most recent wildcats from seeing the light of day.

The 9.3 BS actually has several advantages, at least as real and significant as the wildcats alluded to above:

1) It will duplicate the ballistics of the 9.3x62mm Mauser in a short action. The 9.3x62 has survived for about 100 years, so is obviously a round with merits.

2) Unlike some other short magnums, it will feed in an average short action.

3) It beats the .350 itself by using heavier bullets. Most .35's have 1-16 twists, which won't stabilize bullets over 250 grains. The 9.3 BS can (and will) use bullets up to 300 grains.

So you see that it very definitely fulfills a crying need. We have arranged for reamers already, and expect to have a working rifle within a few weeks.

JB

M.D.

Are you serious or is this just B.S.? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

MD,



Good deal! I'm looking forward to hearing more on this one. What action did you gentlemen settle on? Myself, I'm still awaiting my Win 70 S/A for the re-barrel & deep throat job to 350RM. I went with a 12 twist "just in case". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



As for your new 9.3BS, maybe RickBin will step up to the plate! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



MtnHtr

John:

I'm sure it will fly off the shelves! I predict Remington will bring it out in its Classic in 2005! Lapua and Norma must be scrambling to beat the other to the market with brass. I think someone on the Campfire ought to be the first to Ackleyize it. Oh gosh, PM's coming in already.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Rick

I suspect there may have been more than just a little whiskey and a few late nights surrounding the "development" of this metric BS <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Visualizations of a Texan and Montanan running amok! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


MtnHtr

Mule Deer,

Like anything that is xxBS, let me get my hip boots and shovel, and then we can start swapping load full...

Congrats ... The only question is, if the 9.3x62mm has worked so well for over 100years and you are only going to do the same, what is new???? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Fun anit it....

Regret to inform you that Lazzeroni Arms has already done this. It is called the Pterodactyl Hummingbird.
Lawyers will be intouch. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


BCR

Pick
The reason for the 9.3 BS is it will work in a short action.....a little less weight.....shorter bolt throw....shorter overall length on the rifle.....and I just knew the 9.3 Guy would love it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Charlie

Given the natural cynicism of this outfit, might I humbly suggest changing the name to Sisk-Barsness? Just something about that BS nomenclature that doesn't inspire confidence. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

9.3 Guy
I knew you would like this one.....its real, aint no BS (no pun intended) (I think) in this one....Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool will make the reamer and headspace gages...I'm thinking a 250 Barnes -X would be a nearly perfect bullet if it will shoot...if not, a 250 grain Ballistic Tip should shoot fine.....but on my rifle, it will shoot a 286 grain Partition...no if, ands, or buts about it... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Charlie

I like your new venture because I really like 9.3's, but why

go with the gal with the girdle, 350 rm case? Why not go with a WSM case and approximate 9.64 velocities? I like short cases and short actions for all the above obvious reasons as well.

Im willing to bet that the wider bullet will allow this WSM to feed better, if that is a problem.

So far with my 300 WSM, I have not had one feeding failure out of hundreds of rounds.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dube, I think a 9.3 BS will sell with this crew lol. tom

That great rushing sound (audible in Texas and Montana I'm sure) is the combined exhale of many thousands of shooters who have been holding their breaths for this one...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Well........hundreds maybe.

Dozens?

Uhhhh.......welllll.......there's me and another guy down the alley....(I think).... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Just 'cuz nobody needs this, is not an excuse to not build it.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

JimF

That wasn't an exhale. Somebody farted....really loud <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Flinch

naw, the loud noise was a barking spider. the true greeting for the new BS actually was silent but deadly; nice touch considering the letter designation. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BINGO! Move this guy up to Campfire Kahuna! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


BMT

Charlie,

My recently planned trip to Tx got postponed to July. But it looks as if my 9.3 stable will not be complete 'til I have a 9.3BS. I am currently in the prcess of parting with about 10 or so rifles to build funds to have you make me one. Do you think with JimF's input, we could make it a 6 lb'er?

When I come to Tx, we will discuss it over a steak dinner (my treat) and the approiate liquid refreshment, of course. I'll look forward to it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ...the 9.3Guy

I see another inherent problem there pumpgun, if they elect to go with their first choice: Eventually we'll all start referrin' to it here as the 9.3 Big Stick.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Pick
There are all kinds of new and better BS with a 9.3 BS when compared to a 9.3x62. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />.....shorter powder column...they claim it makes the WSM's better.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />...short action,, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />,,lighter... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />..it should duplicate a 338 Win mag with 250 grain bullets in a shorter, lighter rifle. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />..shorter bolt throw.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />..Hows that for some BS advantages ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Charlie

Gee......izzat a promotion?......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Must mean I get a rise...errr...raise.

Say......uhhhhh......what's a Kay-who-nuh????

JimF

Sounds good, get this one up and running and then how about one for the small bullet guys since you have one for the big bullet guys now. I am think a quarter bore that will rival the .257 WBY Mag, not the bob or the 25-06, that will feed without hick up. This ones sales I think would smash the 9.3's. Look how many were PO'd at Brownchester for the .257 WSSM instead of the .257 WSM. Here is your chance boys!!

About ten years ago, an engineer at Omark snorted at a new rifle-cartridge design with the cynical, skeptical, rhetorical question Who needs it?

My answer was (is) that if need were the ruling criterion, there'd be only two rifle cartridges -- the .22 Long Rifle and the .30-06. Everyone laughed, and the engineer had no more to say on the subject.

Cover North America with a 22 lr. and an '06???.....Gee how boring.

Hard to improve on of course, but think of all the marketing dudes that would be in the unemployment lines.

JimF

To add to Charlie's recent posts: The name was carefully considered over a period of 24 hours or more (is that a plug, as long as there's no campfire burning?). We tried it first on my wife Eileen, who is patiently sitting in Montana amidst the snow, waiting for me to quit playing down here in southerh Texas. Her immediate reaction was: "It sounds like b-------t to me."--exactly the reaction we hoped for. Nobody will ever forget the name. Charlie and I have been watching other wildcatters for years, and have learned a few tricks.

The cartridge's justification is to save precisely one-half inch over the 9.3x62. That is the difference between the loaded rounds. Of course, some shooters will want to chamber it in a longer action, to gain that extra powder space. We ran some calculations already, and figure the long-action version would gain about 1% in velocity. That tiny margin has inspired many other wildcats, as well as investments on Wall Street, thousands of nose jobs, and inflation.

We hope to field-test the 9.3 BS in June, on prairie dogs in eastern Montana. If it proves adequate there, we'll move on to larger game: Teddy bears, golf carts, stretch Hummers--one of which we spotted in front of a hotel in Houston the other day.

JB

Marketing makes the world go round. BS all the way! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

SU35--

We decided to go with the .350 case rather than a WSM or RSAUM because CHARLIE REFUSES TO FOOL WITH THEM!!!!
Many custom gunmakers loathe the short, beltless mag cases because it iis so hard to get other actions to work with them. Yes, many work very well with factory actions designed around them (I have personally had very good luck, especially with push-feed rifles), but people who want custom rifles generally also want to use another action.

This is often a short action NOT designed for a short-beltless, or some other action entirely. Charlie has been driven nuts trying to get them to feed in actions not specifically designed for the rounds. (He has also on occasion been driven nuts by factory short-beltless actions that didn't feed.)

The .350 is easy here, feeding fine in almost any short action. So there you are.

JB

C'mon John, are you telling us that the short mag design isn't perfect in every way. Your colleagues say it is. I promise. Maybe you had better talk to Charlie again. There must be some sort of a mistake. Please tell me there is a mistake. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mule Deer,

I don't think I will be giving up my .376 Steyr in favor of the 9.3 BS -- although the name has it all over my cartridge. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I do note, however, that the Steyr SBS action this ProHunter rifle uses will feed anything I put in it, even WFN solids.

jim dodd

Eureka! Now I understand... it's a legal big five round for Africa. A short action buff smasher for those tense moments when shortstroking is a possibility! All the more reason "BS" should be inscribed after its metric designation!

MD,

I could not agree with you and Charlie anymore regarding the subject of making rounds feed reliably in a S/A. I picked Charlie's brain back in Dec on which Win 70 action to use with my 350RM project, he told me his choice and some pointers to go along with it. I'm pretty sure I made the right choice especially since this rifle might be used as a N. American DGR.

There was another poster on another forum who literally flamed my a$$ when I posted a WSM based wildcat may not be the best choice for a S/A DGR due to potential feeding problems. Please note I posted "best choice", I'm not saying it cannot be done. Why take the difficult route?

I'll just add Charlie knows his chit and I thank him for his advice he gave me in Dec. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

MtnHtr

having fun today I see... I do not disagree, but when you are done you still just have a 9.3x62mm performance (which is very good). Nothing more or less... but it sure is fun ... is it not? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sorry guys, but I 'just gotta laugh-boy, I was JUST THINKING about how I needed a new load for WATER BUFFALO hunting! From reading the replies, I can't tell if this is a joke or what, but to a guy who has never hunted anything bigger than a whitetail, and probably never will, it gave me a good laugh.

When will you come out with the 284 based 9.3mm for those of us with spare .473 bolt faced short actions? BTW, what is the minimum barrel contour that you'd need for a 9.3mm?

Jeff

And here I thought my 700 Classic in 350 Rem Mag was the cats meow! Now I've got to rebarrel and rechamber. Now that I know there is something more effective, I'm not sure I can trust the 35 any longer. Can I live knowing a shot deer may take 10, 15, or maybe 20 leaps after the shot after realizing it could be 9, 14, or 19? And the bigger bullet......the added insurance for my "muzzle wobble". Think of the tracking time I'll save with a paunch shot 9.3 hole vs the 35 cal hole I now leave. Oh, and I already have the 350 Mag cases to neck up!

HogWild

Mule Deer:

From the perspective of someone waiting patiently for one of Saskatchewan's coldest winters in recent memory to end (Key Lake, SK, was the coldest place on the planet last week), it appears that if you and your associates were having any more fun, they'd have to lock you up.

Seriously, it's nice to reach those milestones in life, like inventing your own wildcat cartridge, that mark your journey toward firearms fulfillment. I can see the sense of the 9.3 BS given the availability of the 286-grain Nosler Partition, although I don't believe that I would want to shoot it out of a Remington Model 7. You should, however, immediately rush to introduce a 9.3-08 as a less powerful BS load. The junior version could capitalize on the undeniable cachet of historic loads like the 9.3x57 and 9.5x57 and give the rest of us more reasons to convert surplus flat rifles into the real thing.

Give me a little more BS and wrap it in a SS Model 7 (my new love) and sign me up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You guys are on to something. Make it a 7mm BS, a 338 BS or XXX BS and I'll buy it on the name alone!!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Muley
That would make a nice piece.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.....got an action handy ? I'll get started. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Charlie

Some of the more serious posters here seem to still be missing the point. Yeah, all it will do is duplicate 9.3x62 ballistics--but with 3-4 ounces less action weight, and a whole half-inch shorter magazine! I mean, isn't that why all the recent short mags appeared, and hunters bought them by the hundreds of thousands? Geez!

Both Charlie and I know that there really isn't any need for another wildcat, and darn few places to squeeze one into today's lineup. But why not? Aren't we here for fun and games?

Some other posters seem to be getting into the spirit of things. Yes, indeed, I do believe the 9.3 BS will drop big game a micro-second sooner than the .350 Magnum will--and once that new electronic stopwatch arrives I intend to prove it!

JB

Seems to me that Ackley spoke highly of a 30-350 in one of his books. I don't have a 30 caliber anything at the moment, but I do have a 600 magnum action lying around. Wonder if'n it would work???

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

JimF

I can see the development and testing of this Cartridge becoming a dandy article for a gun magazine. Not to mention people flocking to Charlie�s door for the bragging rights to say that they own one. tom

JimF
I cant see any reason why it wouldn't work... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.....considering case capacity and pressure I think it would run between a 30-06 and a 300 WSM....operate at a safe pressure, feed like lightning, thump a 180 grain Partition with ease.....for North American big game, save bear at close range, what else could a man need ?
Now that I think about it I think it would be the short action version of the 30-06 Ackley Improved......someone has to build one just so we can rib our most worshipful webmaster, Mr Bin.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Charlie

�� a micro-second sooner��? Wait just a doggone minute, here!

I seem to recall reading, seeing as how I just read the article last night, something by a gunwriter of apparently some small experience saying that �recoilless� rounds like the .257 Bob dropped game (well, deer at least) just as quickly as the more harshly recoiling rounds like that shoulder crunching .270.

I also know from first hand experience that a short action Model 700 Classic in .350 Rem. Mag. does NOT fall into the �recoilless� category. And now you want to increase the bullet weight in that same case, which as we all know from our BS degrees in BS (that�s Bachelor of Science in Benchrest Science to the uninformed) will increase recoil even more. Yet you claim that it will drop game a micro-second sooner? Methinks I see a contradiction on the horizon.

Gotcha! Score for the anal-retentive gun owners and magazine readers! The crowd goes wild (or crazy, choose your synonym).


(TIC - FTDOAU) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You realize the race is on <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />!

Personally, I want to be the first person on the planet to actually KILL something with BS <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Sure, Mule Deer, the new BS cartridges will drop a deer a micro second sooner than the current line of cartridges and we all love that, but what I have to have is absolute pentration on deer. I mean, the bullet must absolutely hold together, mushroom perfectly and plow through at least a deer's shoulder and continue on out the far side slashing into the mud. If the BS line of cartridges aren't loaded with the $2 per slug premiums, I don't think they'll sell.

I HAVE been thinkin' about a 30 cal. somethin' for the NA one gun deal. I s'pose to be P.C. it'd have to be named whatever Parker named his. 30-350 PABS ??

Hmmmmm......fat (enough) case, nice moderate 25* shoulder, good body taper. Action already designed for it.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Probably a 22" bbl. guessing a 180/2850-2900 and a 220/2600. I'd be staying away from the AK coast, but I'd bet that 220 NP would give an interior Griz a powerful headache.

I probably would not have any trouble telling when it goes off, so I might have to build it heavy, Like 6 lb...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> just so it wouldn't knock my ears clean off my head. Prob'ly want some sort of iron sights too.

Mebbe I better dig up some cases and make a few dummies to see whassup.

Like I really NEED another project......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Oh yeah!! need don't count.................... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

JimF

JF- Why, when reading your last post, do I get the visions of Gollum arguing with himself in my head???? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Sounds like a winner of a project and I'm waiting for details and pics! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

To make matters worse, I just talked to Julio about painting a batch of stocks this weekend. When I mentioned this idea, he said "hail...I think I have that reamer someplace or other"

I'm not really arguing with myself, I've been thinking about this one for a while anyway. I'm more or less laughing at myself for how easy it is for me to go off on a new project. Course this rifle would make a couple of others obsolete (including that 308 that I haven't even assembled yet)

I think I should concentrate on finishing up the 6.5, re-fininshing the 284 with a better metal coating, put together the 308 on the parts that I already have, finish up the stocks that I promised to do for Julio. Sell off some excess inventory...then start thinkin' about this one.......

Maybe a #2 fluted with a little shorty ramp on the front?? A nice little 4x33 or 2x6x36, probably a short forend Bansner. Have to look into some kind of rear sight.

Grrrrr.......sssssstopit!!........we cants be thinkin' about this now!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JimF

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I like to see folks in this type of turmoil! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My Precciioouussss!!!

For a SA thumper, it would be fun. Although, I already have a 9.3 in an Encore. I wouldn't mind trying the "BS" in a 15" barrel.

Can you say 30 SAUM? Oh heck,....what was I thinking?.....30 BS!

Unfortunately, I've only used my 350 RM on deer.....no big game as yet. Therefore, I have leaned toward the lighterweight bullets with the 200g Hornady SP getting the most use. I've often thought how useful the same case would be in 33 cal for the dual use role (deer plus big game) due to the great selection of lightweight bullets in 33 cal. Can't use the 35 cal Nosler BT (225g) in the 350 RM as the ogive of the bullet is too long. (Why did they do this?)

If I ever rebarrel this action, I will probably make it into a 33 cal.......but would probably use the SAUM case if there are no feeding issues (would want to hear more about this). In lieu of that option, a 33-350 RM would be nice in a short action.

HogWild

How about a 257 BS Imp but in this case I think the BS should stand for Bitch Slappin' cuz it will be a bad mutha <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> for anithing under 300 lbs....oops.... I forgot we already have the 25-284 that will fit in a short-action and do the same thing and it doesn't have belt ...but.....it does have the rebated rim.....myabe we could neck down the 450 Marlin as it has a different belt than anything else...we could call it the 25-450 BFD. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

A little early to hittin' the sauce Bill.......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, I think the idea of the 350 mag case has a lot of merit. It already has about the capacity of the Ackleyed '06 case so there's no need to Imp it. That moderate shoulder and taper should negate the feeding issues that arise occasionally with the SAM and Whizz.

Any 284 variant is good too, but that rebated rim can be a bother, and the 350 would have at least (some) additional capacity (10%)

Since Charlie started tooting the horn about this one, I have taken a couple 6.5 RM cases and necked 'em up to 30 and stuffed a bullet in there, then I ran em through that 600 mag action I have and they were slick as could be. I'm not a fan of belts either, but it really doesn't hurt anything.

I'm pretty sold on the idea that a 30-350 will be my next project. I don't care about getting "magnum" velocities, but it will certainly be faster than a std. '06 and in a short action too. That's about all I want.

JimF

JimF,

I'm liking it already, if it drives a 165 at or over 3000fps I think you'll have a winner. I may have to have one too or maybe just build a 7/350! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

MtnHtr

Mtn Hunter
I'm thinking those would be really close to a 280 Ackley or a 30-06 Ackley in a short action.....
Charlie