Read my last question in Bret4207's post "Old favorite writers."

Do a search here. I believe JB answered that question awhile back about ole "StickyFingers Harvey"...

Cheaha, Thank you for the suggestion. I did a search. Nothing showed up.

Trapper,



If you want the truth, after screwing about every manufacturer in the industry, he got "blackballed."



I owned a jewelry store at the time and he didn't ignore me, either. The dickhead stiffed me for a three thousand dollar Rolex watch.



Last I heard, he was working in a frozen yogurt shop in South Carolina. That's fitting.



Yes, he could tell a yarn, but the man had practically no field experience. Almost all of his stuff was either the experience of others or total fiction.



Once, when I was working with Kimber, I was elected to be his ammo carrier and counter of gopher bodies. The man proved to be perhaps the worst shot I've ever seen. This was quite a revelation for me; after all, this was the great Clay Harvey. Any gopher beyond fifty yards was totally safe, even with the new Kimber Super America .223 that was presented to him.



Of course, Clay sold the rifle at a gun show the next week. Typical



He called me once and asked, "Steve, how many .284 Winchester rounds,on the average, does it take to stop a mature whitetail buck." My answer was pretty simple; "ONE." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



Those of us who are honest writers still feel the effects of Clay's dishonesty. Too bad, but I surely do not blame them.



Steve

dogzapper,
You don't have to hold back your true feelings. Just go ahead and let us know how you really feel. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Ward

I "inherited" Clay as one of my staff writers when I succeeded the recently departed Neal Knox as editor of Handloader and Rifle magazines in 1978. He came out for a visit and quickly succeeded in making himself thoroughly unpopular with our staff. After a while, the material that he sent me got too sloppy to tolerate from a staff writer, so I took him off the staff but encouraged him to send me cleaner material as a free-lancer and earn his old staff position again (as he had done before). He acknowledged that he'd gotten increasingly sloppy and seemed to accept my decision like an honest man. But I never got any more material from him.

I don't think I announced his removal from my staff. IIRC, readers noticed the absence of his material and mast-head listing in later issues of the magazines.

Then I started hearing, one after another, from manufacturers from whom he'd borrowed dozens of guns (on limited-time consignments), which he'd neither returned nor paid for. The manufacturers were very lenient -- offered to extend the consignment periods, but needed signed copies of his renewed FFL for their records. He wouldn't answer their repeated inquiries. Finally, one manufacturer was forced to report to the BATF that he had not provided the needed FFL copy. Then it came -- in a BATF envelope.

The total value of all those rifles, handguns, and shotguns -- even at the much lower "friendly" prices for writers -- ran to a total well into five figures (that's $xy,000!). The last I heard, a grand total of no gun had been returned, and a super total of $0 had been received by any of several manufacturers.

And that wasn't all of it. Several ammo companies told me that a typical request from Clay was Send me a case of each load that you offer for the [.30-06, .44 Magnum, etc] -- a total, sometimes, of close to a dozen cases per cartridge.

Then I heard from some of Clay's shooter neighbors, including dealers and gunsmiths, who reported that Clay had (a) offered them great quantities of factory ammo at less than retail price and (b) had a huge selection of new rifles, handguns, and shotguns on his tables at local gun shows -- for sale.

Let me make this clear, because a number of my writer and editor friends condemned me for "exposing" and "firing" Clay and black-balling him with the manufacturers. I did neither. All of the "dirt" on Clay came out, independent of and separate from my limited role in removing him from his staff position. I learned of the rest afterward and had no part in spreading the word. That kind of word gets around this industry pretty fast on its own legs with no help from me.

A couple of other editors continued to buy material from Clay -- until he sold 'em both the same article, and both published it (neither aware that the other also had it) -- which is a cardinal no-no for writers. So I have no trouble guessing or understanding why you don't see his byline in any recent publication.

Too bad. Clay was able. But he fouled his own bed.

I had a brief correspondence with him 20-odd years ago, relative to an article he wrote about the "inherent inaccuracy" of the .257 Roberts cartridge, regardless of rifle brand, action type, barrel, rifling twist, etc. Pre-Internet, so I had to write him an old-fashioned manual letter. Sent him targets and everything, just to make the point that even in my old, short-action long-throat SUCKS 722 the Roberts accuracy was far more than adequate. His basic response was that no amount of evidence would change what he knew to be right.

The ancient Greek philosophers called it "hubris".

He must have also put the article in a book he wrote that was distributed by the North American Hunting Club. I remember reading it. I don't have it handy, but I think the book was titled "The Hunter's Rifle."

John

Ken Howell, et al., Your answers make me sad. Now I have found there seems to be seamy-side to an otherwise talented word crafter: deftly weaving words while at the same time spinning a self-destructive and morally tragic web. What an epitaph for a potentially brilliant career: "He was able, but he fouled his own bed." Notwithstanding, his inimitable writing style remains among my favorites.

I thought that Clay was a good writer, but it was clear that he had very little real hunting experience of his own to base his assumptions on. He distilled much of his information from the experiences of others - mostly other writers. He bought into and passed along a great deal of misinformation as well, and many of his conclusions were ridiculous. Hunting experience always shows with any good writer of the subject, and I'm afraid Clay's inexperience was showcased for what it was much of the time.

He wrote about elk cartridges, for example, but I doubt that he'd ever taken one himself, and the one elk story he wrote about sounded like a fabrication to me, and I suspect the elk he posed with for the hero-photo was taken by someone else - not Clay Harvey.

ADay

What a telling story of incompetence. Thanks for sharing, Ken.

I have another Clay Harvey story. Few know it, but it really sheds a lot of light on the writing ethics of the man.

At the end of the Kimber ground squirrel hunt, Greg Warne, Clay and I had dinner together at one of Portland's snazziest restruants. Greg was one to spend all of his investor's money on fun, rather than put into the business, so you can imagine the spread.

Greg had a surprise for us. He had given Clay a .223 Super America earlier, probably on the expectation of good press. At the dinner, he gave Clay the first Kimber .17 Mach V, and asked him to do an article on the rifle and the cartridge. Clay said he would and that he would place it well.

At the same dinner, Greg gave me the second .17 Mach V and asked the same of me. I was new (on a totally freelance basis) at Wolfe. I promised to do my best, hoping sincerely that Al Miller would accept my beginners scribblings.

As an aside, I wrote for Wolfe Publishing for many years and was never asked to become a Contributing Editor. All of my articles were strictly on a freelance basis. It was for this reason, and the stupidity of a temporary and horrible editor (who I will not name) that I eventually signed on at Varmint Hunter. In my opinion, this was Wolfe's loss and the VHA's gain. Anyway, I digress.

A few days later, Ted Curtis (I love the man) and I were manning the tech phone at Kimber. Ted caught a call that got him to laughing so badly that he had to turn it over to me.

The caller was a South Carolina farmer with an accent that you had to hear to believe. Anyway, he bought a Kimber rifle from a short, fat guy at a gun show and it was a "Seventeen Mack Vee." He'd tried .17 Remington ammunition in it and "the bolt wouldn't close on the bullets." Duh.

Laughing, and trying not to wet myself, I informed him that the cartridge was a wildcat and that he couldn't buy factory ammo for it. This didn't please him much, but he knew of a fella in the next county who "stuffed bullets," so he guessed it would be OK.

About a month later, I got a call from Clay. He told me that he was just starting load development and wanted me to send all of my data to him. Even then, I was an ethical writer (some things are just natural to a few of us) and I told Clay that my data was hard earned; he should work up his own.

Of course, I knew that he had sold the rifle to the farmer and that, even if he had the rifle, he wasn't moxie enough to load the .17 Mach V successfully. Of course, the only Mach V data available at the time was in the P. O. Ackley Manual and it was silly, dangerous stuff.

By the end of the conversation, Clay was quite aware that my data would not be shared and that there was something quite wrong.

My article was published in Handloader #132 (March-April 1988) and I doubt that Clay ever published on the subject.

I ask you, what manner of man would accept a product, only to sell it a few days later? And what manner of man would ask for load data from another writer, so that he could copy it and cover his tracks?

Clay Harvey is the lowest-quality individual that it has ever been my displeasure to know.

Charles Askins, Jr. and his antics at Kimber comes close (that's another story for another day). In my opinion, Clay is the sole winner of the Writing Schmuck Award.

Steve

Thanks for sharing that one, as well...now excuse me while I open a new thread on Charles Askins, Jr.

Geez, now that the cat's out the bag, let me add another Clay Harvey story.

Last August I hunted in Botswana. My PH soon found I was a gun/hunting writer and we started bandying names back and forth. Turns out he once guided Clay Harvey in Zimbabwe--the big, 21-day hunt. Clay had along at least 6 rifles and two huge cartons of handloads, along with his wife and two daughters, the daughters not too long out of high school.

That first evening Clay got the two PH's aside and told them he "knew how professional hunters were," and warned them not to try to seduce his daughters. My guy was married and as gently as possible told Clay not to worry. The other guy wasn't married, however, and told Clay his daughters were way too ugly for any of that.

Clay never did get his Cape buffalo because he shot it with some reduced loads designed for something else. They never found the buff. In general he shot very poorly, and there was lots of tracking on thin blood trails.

He also complained about the Zimbabwean wine in camp, along with some of the food, so they charted a plane to bring in fancier food and a case of South African wine. Clay stiffed them for the wine, food and several animals he shot that got away wounded.

Oh, and from the dates my PH could remember, this took place just after Clay got caught selling the dozens of guns he'd "borrowed" from various manufacturers. So he bankrolled his big safari with stolen money.

JB

Is this the same Clay Harvey that wrote "A Flash Of Red" ? If so I am highly dissapointed to hear that he is such a dipshit because I am a big fan of his novels.

Boondock

Well gosh!!
I guess, that because he seemed to admire about the same cartridges as I, and wrote in a humorous sort of way, I looked forward to his articals. I even bought a couple of his books.
Sorry to hear of his ---misadventures. I suppose that no profession is without it's "black sheep". Joe

Clay Harvey is a dishonest man who casts a cloud over gunwriters in general. The problem is, not everyone realizes it!
On a happier note, Dogzapper, I read Varmint hunter whenever I can find it.
Catnthehat

Sorry to revive such an old post, but I saw Askins at an NRA Annual Event talking to the SWAROVSKI people, trying to get them to hand him a new laser range finder. They were completely dismissive of him. When he walked away I asked if they knew who he was, and they said something like they knew him all right.

To see one of my heroes treated that way was rough - a couple decades later I now know that gun writers don't walk on water, but I still like to think some of them do. Ken Howell helps me keep this little fantasy alive.

I've heard from some gun company insiders that Charles Askins never returned a gun to a manufacturer after testing it, but he sure sold a lot of guns. I had lunch at the 1985 NRA Annual Meeting with a gun company executive and he confirmed this and said they'd been bitten by Askins too.

I remember an article by Harvey on the then new Ruger M77 RSI. IIRC, it was the 1985 Guns Illustrated and he'd stated that when he first saw the gun he "faunched" all over the place trying to get one. What in the hell is "faunch"? I do know that article made me want to get and finally I did. A .308 Win. and no it is not for sale.
Sure didn't realize was a thief and liar that man was.
I do know of one writer who was loaded the personal rifle of a syntetic stock maker. I was at the stock maker's plant dicussing the option of using one of his stocks that needed a bit of serious alteration to make it wok and commented on the write up by the write about the stock. He told me he'd been trying for months to get that rifle back but the writer kept putting him off. It's been a very long long time, about 24 years. I wonder if he ever got his gun back?
Paul B.

Glad this was revived, not necessarily to beat down Harvey (deserved) but to once again read a post by AllenDay. I enjoyed him here and am sorry he is no longer with us.

I only read a few of Clay's articles and always had a bad feeling about him. In my mind he always came across as arrogant and bombastic.

I believe that we all should have known that Clay Harvey was a total PHONY. Any writer, indeed any editor, who hides behind words that the common man does not know, or even pronounce, disqualifies himself from our adulation.

Indeed, there are those on every sporting web site, the 24HCF, who are posers. Big words, long words, do not proved education and learning, they simply show that some hide behind words.

I am privy to one of Clay Harvey's more horrible acts. Clay went on a deer hunt in one of the western states. He was armed with a H-K and loads of ammo. Before the wranglers could saddle up the horses and mules, Clay Harvey saw some does and fawns and blasted holes in some of them.

The wranglers went to my friend, who was the sales manager for one of Clay's sponsoring companies and asked, "What do we do with this crazy sonofabitch?"

The eventually killed the wounded, packed up Mr. Harvey and sent him back to the Land of Palmentos.

And I have no doubt that Clay Harvey wrote yet another article about hunting western game animals ... the mule deer, Odocoileus hemionus, as Clay Harvey would call them.

What a sad state of affairs.

Yeah, wasn't it great to read a few words of Allen Day's? I truly miss Allen. When Allen and I last talked, we discussed critters, some new kind of boots he was hot on and a copy of Tom Turpin's FABULOUS BOOK, Mastery of Wood & Metal.

Not a fortnight later, my great friend Tom Turpin sent me a copy of the book about David Miller, Curt Crum and the unreal rifles that they make together.

Apparently Allen called Tom and Tom did a nice signing ... and forwarded the book to me.

THANKS ALLEN, where-ever you are.

God Bless You Allen DAy,

Steve

Amen Steve!

If I have to throw the devil a bone, back in the mid '80's Harvey wrote a piece for G & A about the 6.5 Swede. It was good enough to get me to buy a mil surp swede and I've been hooked since.

Harvey did some interesting pieces on various pistols I was interested in at the time, but other than that, I never took his words too seriously, I thought his "in depth testing" of various pistols way off the mark.
Unlike our Dogzapper, who's stuff has always been "spot on", even if you have to read between the lines (like those WSSM articles). I got a pretty big grin out of those, BTW.

Ratsmacker,

So you caught that one?

I had to be soooo careful on the WSSM article. The dude who did the graphite barrel wrap and such was my editor's nephew. The nephew supplied the rifle and gobs of technical data that he wanted published.

Writing that piece absolutely crossed my self-imposed line in the sand .... it violated my writing ethics. Regrettably, all I could do was to write the silly piece and to do it in such a way that it screamed out to my regular readers "Don't even think about buying this piece of CRAP."

Same comments about the Remington EtroniX rifle. It was junk, but it was editor-assigned junk. So I had to write it ... and I wrote it to caution my regular readers against wasting their money on junk.

I'm absolutely delighted to be out of commercial writing. Writing for myself and a very few friends is abundantly more rewarding.

God Bless,

Steve

I was very dissapointed to learn Clay Harvey was a thief and a phony. His book, Popular Sporting Rifle Cartridges, was my resource bible when I was in high school. I can't tell you how many times I read the book, cover to cover. I really enjoyed the stories and info. After learning of his shenanigans recently, I pitched his book in the trash.

Ohhh Noooooo !

You threw away some photos of me with dead critters I'd killed.

Fat little Clay didn't have any kills of his own, so he mooched "hero photos" from the rest of us.

Blessings,

Steve

I have Clay Harvey's book "Popular Sporting Rifle Cartridges" and have found it to be pretty interesting,, but I haven't tried his loads. Generally, I stick to pressuure tested loads in reloading manuals.

wbyfan1,

I was sent a review copy of POPULAR SPORTING RIFLE CARTRIDGES, and read it entirely, being a good little reviewer. By the end it occurred to me that not only hadn't Harvey hunted with a number of the cartridges, but hadn't even fired some of them. I went back through and added it all up. He hadn't fired about 1/3 of the rounds, and hadn't hunted with another 1/3. I tossed it.

A few years later, when he was out of the business and I'd talked to a number of people who had personal CH stories, I began to doubt that he'd actually hunted with all of the other 1/3.

'Zackly why I quit buying gun magazines. Nothing but Ruger adds and Wiley Clapp's ugly mug. I think the only word he knew was "Shootout!".

And there was no ready-and-waiting bias against Mike's rifle? Was 'this piece of CRAP' an altogether objective appraisal, based on totally unbiased testing?

"he mooched "hero photos" from the rest of us"

As the saying goes, "Them that can, do; them that can't, mooch" or something like that.

He didn't have to hunt when someone was paying him to just write. It was ultimately the fault of the editor who accepted and paid for his stories. The editor (I assume) knew him better than most readers, or should have.

Ken,

Nope, no prejudice.

Blessings,

Steve

Can I buy a watch on the Harvey plan?

Heck yes, my friend. Heck of a deal



Blessings,

Steve

Getting more education from dogzapper:

When I first read the post with the above quote, I assumed DZ had made made an oopsie, intending to use "Palmetto" in referring to South Carolina ("The Palmetto State"), where Mr. Harvey lived.

However, knowing Steve to be a clever person, I made an internet inquiry about "Palmento". Now I'm not sure it was an error.

"Palmento" appears to be a Sicilian name for a place where wine is made in the old way, with big rocks to press the grapes, etc.
.

.
.
"Palmento" is the name of a recent book about an American discovering the wines of Sicily. It may well be on Jon Sundra's bookshelf:
.

.
.
A brief interesting video about the book is on youtube: [color:#000066]PALMENTO Book Trailer[/color]

--Bob

Pay for a Rolex, get a Timex. Both will tell you the time and they both end in "x", so what's the difference?

Bob,

Indeed, you are a friend. A friend who gave me the benefit of the doubt. Let me extend my totally heartfelt thanks for that.

Friendship, civility and downright courtesy are so rare in this world. You are a GENTLEMAN, Sit!

The truth is ...... it was absolutely a Steve-oopsie

I'm on some meds, strong meds, that knock me sideways. An errant-N and missin'-T are the LEAST of my side-effects.

Actually, I'm kinda glad the meds did that to me; otherwise you would not have discovered "palmento." We are all much wiser now; or at least, we now know something that we didn't before.

Aren't Google and the zillions of Internet search engines a miracle? It is absolutely amazing the wealth of information that is out there.

My friend, NEVER think of me as being particularly wise or clever. I'm just a guy, like the rest of you, who loves to hunt and shoot and visit with folks who enjoy doing the same. Nothing more, nothing less.

Palme[color:#660000]nto .... don't that beat all?

Blessings,

Steve

PS. Again, THANK YOU once again for proving to us all that there ARE Good Guys out there.

I hired a supposedly-excellent sales lady one Christmas. I was familiarizing her with our stock and we came to our signle four-layer show-case full of Rolex watches, she asked: "Rolex (laugh), isn't that something like Timex? (Huge laugh)"

Ummm, she didn't last long.

Blessings,

Steve

PS. In retrospect, I surely wish I'd sent Clay a Timex.

I like watches.

Jeff

Right it's all about you and your watch ??.

Right it's all about you and your watch ??.

That was worth posting twice?

[quote=dogzapper Any writer, indeed any editor, who hides behind words that the common man does not know, or even pronounce, disqualifies himself from our adulation.

Indeed, there are those on every sporting web site, the 24HCF, who are posers. Big words, long words, do not proved education and learning, they simply show that some hide behind words.

Yeah, wasn't it great to read a few words of Allen Day's? I truly miss Allen.

God Bless You Allen DAy,

Steve

I agree where DZ's comment about writers is concerned, I consider Elmer Keith to be THE American gun writer, due to his immense practical knowledge of guns and game, based on a lifetime as an active outdoorsman and Elmer certainly did not use arcane or polysyllabic words to try to impress his readers.

While Elmer did not kill the ...truckloads... of animals that so many current scribes boast of in their repetitive articles, he actually hunted on his own and on public land rather than in fenced enclosures in foreign lands. Elmer, was impressive enough to anyone with real bush experience and did not need to enhance his prestige with pretense.

I do not totally concur with my friend, Steve, concerning appropriate words as I tend to consider these a "learning experience", IF, the writer KNOWS correct usage and employs them in a manner which augments the material he is presenting.

Clay Harvey, who impressed me as an azzhole with the first article of his I read (and one of the last, as well), often used katachrestic syntax as a method of enhancing his mediocre journalistic abilities. This, is a sophomoric trick that most writers outgrow by age 25 or so and his continual self indulgence in such antics merely demonstrated how little real talent he possessed.

Poseurs are everywhere in life and why would gun forums be any different?

I also miss and was fond of Allen Day and he certainly was NOT one. I will read Keith, his protege, Bob Hagel, Phil Shoemaker, Finn Aagard, Brian Pearce, and that young fella, John Barsness and a few others and find most contemporary gun mags.-writing boring, imitative and repetitive.

Clay Harvey, was a dork and we are better off without his presence in the gun sports.


[/quote]

Well it was worth just re reading something Allen Day wrote and posted. My god keep him, one of the truly good guys. I miss the PM's from him from time to time. As for Clay Harvey, he is not the first clown to do what he dose nor would he be the last. I tried this writing business, its hard work, harder that you would believe. I once told Ed Matunas, he is an old friend of mine that I wanted to be a gun writer and that If I just change a few word on some of your stuff would it be ok, he said with a big grin, its all hash and re hash for a hundred years, you wouldn't be the first or the last. As for stealing stuff that is lent on good faith, will nothing lower than that, there is but you all know what I mean.

Friends,

There is something that some might not know; Clay Harvey came to us out of the power lifting sport. Whether he wrote while he was involved with lifting, I cannot say ... probably.

Amazon has a book A Flash of Red, by Clay Harvey. ISBN 9780425159347. One of the comments is as follows:

His middle name must be Roget
It must have taken forever for him to write this book, what with referring to the thesaurus for a suitably obtuse replacement for every other word.

Yup, that must be "our" Clay Harvey.

Blessings,

Steve

Any writer or editor who's worth the salt on his omelet uses words that he knows. Not every reader is limited to "See Jack run" and "Run, Spot, run!"

One of the worst possible ways that a writer can insult his readers is to "talk down" to 'em as if they're six-year-old cretins.

Who can write anything that's worth reading if he limits himself to such extreme simplicity as "Birds fly" and "Fish swim?"

Some readers would have to look-up adulation (above). Does that fact disqualify it?

Should a good gun writer or editor never use obturation or digressive?

Any good writer or editor, on any subject from hop-scotch to neurosurgery, is familiar with words that some of his readers don't know.

A very good writer friend of mine once used � precisely, correctly, appropriately � a word that his boss's secretary said that he shouldn't use "because the boss doesn't know that word." My friend replied that if the boss didn't know that word, that wasn't the assistant's fault.



BTW, FWIW, a number of 24HCF posts have sent me to a dictionary, where I learned words that I hadn't known before. (In this very thread, in fact.) I welcome and embrace 'em eagerly. My vocabulary has grown significantly in the eleven years that I've been on the 'fire. Thanks, guys!

Ed is indeed one of the best among the good guys! An excellent writer and an excellent host!

Please pass along a fervent "Howdy!" from a useless ol' fossil.

You can say that again.

Ken,

Your observations, as always are spot on. I am not a gun writer, though I pursued my degree in Journalism with that goal in mind. I have always been a voracious reader and expect to have my vocabulary challenged from time to time. I suppose many do not have a dictionary close at hand, but I've no shame in seeking Webster's assistance.

Growing up, our family had every meal together, all seven of us. And often more with friends, a bachelor uncle who visited often, and cousins who lived with us. The dining room table was a place of much conversation and education. Dad sat at one end of the table and had at one side of him a very thick dictionary and on the other side an immense, one volume encyclopedia. As meals progressed, and with children of many ages, the conversations invariably brought out a word or subject unfamiliar to at least one of us. Dad's response would be to hand us one of the books and direct us to, "look it up". We would look up the word or subject and share our findings with the rest of the family. It is one of my many fond memories of growing up. Dad still reads continually, he is never without three or four books going. Remarkable really at 83, considering he is actively attending auctions buying and reselling antiques, growing a huge garden and caring for my step mom. I don't think I have ever stumped him with a word.

I would be disappointed if my reading never took me to a dictionary. I know your writings have sent me there even recently, and I thank you for that. At 52 I still need to expand my vocabulary. Time permits me less opportunity to read like I used to. Most of my reading is confined to scripture, firearms and woodworking magazines and my beloved classic gun and hunting books. And these digital journals, of course.

Vocabulary is no substitute for depth of knowledge on any subject matter. There are some writers whose vocabulary is far greater than their subject knowledge. Those fellows generally get sorted out.

That was the long way around to say that I don't mind the occasional "big word" that sends me to the dictionary, as long as the writer in not masking a lack of skill and knowledge with an extensive vocabulary.

Mart

Shakespeare hammered (inter alia) the matter of sesquipedalianism flat and nailed it down with "Polonius's" wise parting advice to his son, "Laertes" � in Hamlet, Act I, Scene III �

"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man. � "

The year when the teacher let me skip the fourth grade, a serious family situation had me farmed-out to relatives in a "Nawth'n" city for several months � quite an experience for a south-Alabama hick kid from a one-room country school.

All over "our" part of town � on walls, fences, sidewalks � I kept seeing a grafitto that was obviously familiar there but I'd never encountered. I couldn't find it in any dictionary, so at the supper table one night, I asked "What does 'F, U, C, K' mean?" (I didn't spell it � I said it, and not by any means in a whisper.)

I got a panoply of quite dramatic and memorable responses, but no answer.

Before I learned to read, I could ask "What does 'xxxxxxxxxxx' mean?" and one of the grown-ups would tell me.

After I learned to read, the answer was always "Look it up," so I grew-up with dictionaries. The wrinkled pages of the huge unabridged were always open and handy. I now have three unabridged dictionaries on my hard drive, including the long-coveted OED, and I use 'em daily to confirm that I'm using the right word and spelling it right, never to look for a fancier word than whatever is already on the tip of my tongue or the tips of my fingers. (Tongue didn't look right, for some reason, so I just looked it up in the Random House unabridged to make sure that I was spelling it right.)

Ken,

There you go again, sending me to Webster for his assistance.

With the always abundant crowd of adolescents at our supper table, there were more than a few of those, shall we say teachable moments, when definitions were deferred to more appropriate settings. Some definitions were best left to the confines of the milk barn, as to not despoil the atmosphere of the table.

Mart

A lady author of some renown told that when she was a lass, she'd come-across cartel and asked her father what it meant. He brushed her off with "You're too young to understand that," so she assumed that it was something too naughty for tender ears.

She said that although she eventually learned what it means and knows about denotations and connotations, she still feels a bit of a girlish thrill whenever she encounters it.

You can always tell a Real Gunwriter when he speaks of;
Wheelguns, Roys & Bobs, And things that are "Woefully
Inadequate".

hawkins,

You might enjoy the introductory essay in my book OBSESSIONS OF A RIFLE LOONY, entitled "Gunwriterese."

"The obvious is preferable to the obvious avoidance of it." � H W Fowler, Modern English Usage

Clich�s are a special category of weak, flimsy, lazy expression. There's neither elegance nor eloquence in "elegant variation" from plain, unvarnished English.

Ever read a Louis L'Amour western that didn't include prominent mentions of a Colt revolving rifle, Spaniards' armor found in a cave, or English boxing champion Jem Mace?

I've seen one Colt revolving rifle, plus one carried by Arthur Hunnicutt in El Dorado. I figure that the rest of 'em that Colt made all went to Louis L'Amour's characters.

LOL - if you get a chance Ken check out the Buffalo Bill Historical Center museum in Cody, WY.

The firearms collection has a few Colt Revolving Rifles, and more Lee-Enfields than you ever believed were manufactured.

Roy Rogers carried one inside his guitar in "Return Of Paleface." The one with Bob Hope and Jane Russell. Can't believe you missed it, Ken. It's a classic.

Mule Deer I have enjoyed your writings for years, but I have suspicions that you are not a true gun writer. I can't remember you ever using the word "venerable" to describe a cartridge.

Hey, I once wrote an article with at least a paragraph on searching sporting goods stores for ammo boxes marked "Venerable .30-06"!

I guess I'm not a true and legitimate gun writer.

I don't remember ever having called the .30-30 "the thutty-thutty," "venerable" or otherwise.



(And of course I've never posted pictures of dead game, neither mine nor anybody else's.)

Hey, hey, I felt a disturbance in the force, and came here because I believe someone has put down Louis L'Amour.
You guys can slag each other off, get racist, get whatever you like, but a man has to draw the line somewhere. (Where's my Colt's revolving rifle...)

I've voraciously devoured several dozens of L'Amour's novels, several more than once, some in rapid succession (as fast as I could finish one and start the next one), but even to me, he wasn't quite a demigod.

When you've read him as much as I have, his personal fetishes and idiosyncrasies stand-out like specks of tar on pearls.

Ken,

I have read, reread and then some of (I believe) every single one of Louis L'Amours novels. Some of the better ones, I have read many times... as in too many to count...

But one thing I've always noted... The underdog ALWAYS wins, and ALWAYS gets the pretty girl... Oh! and he ALWAYS wins the inevitable fistfight...

GH

My b-i-l went through a stage where he confused Mr. L'Amour with God Himself. He convinced me to read one of his novels (knowing that I normally read very, very few novels). I came away with the impression that Mr. L'Amour wrote until he had reached the number of words required by the publisher and then wrapped it up. The one I read wound up (after much detail covering a short period of time) rather abruptly with something like, "One day twenty years later, the Indians caught him by the creek and killed him." I came away less than impressed.

I've long envied the Peruvian Amahuacas their "no time."

They're "in no time" when they opt to shut their brains off and just sit in a self-chosen trance for a while. That's gotta be restful!

I've always wished that I could turn my brain off � or at least put it to sleep � but the closest that I've ever come is to distract it with something captivating and totally meaningless, like Louis L'Amour westerns. Earlier, Zane Grey and Mickey Spillane offered blessed escape. Likewise "Luke Short" (Fred Glidden) and Earnest Haycox, but they didn't write enough.

So I've read all the Louis L'Amours that I've ever known about. Lost track, long ago, of the titles and what each one's about.

The brain can be a terrrible tyrant.

with the way dads pass on the .30-06 to their offspring and have for generations, could we call is the Venereal 30-06?

A governer of Ohio introduced President Johnson at an Ohio university with "Welcome to this venereal institution."

That was good enough for LBJ, and just about what one can expect from any trip to Ohio.

If you've never read Louis L'Amour, I suggest:

1. To Tame a Land

2. Reilly's Luck

3. The Daybreakers

4. Guns of the Timberlands

GPerry

Glad this thread moved away from the subject.

Ken, EL Dorado is one of my all time favorite Duke Wayne's movies. I read a lot, of late I been reading Anton Chekhov, and Leon Uris never disappoints.

"All I know about ballet is that at the intermission the ballerinas all smell like horses." (Anton Chekhov, as well as I can remember it)

I read quite a lot of L'Amour as a kid. I always felt that his traditional westerns were pretty much the same book rewritten for publisher's deadlines.

But, when he broke away from his traditional western, he could be quite good. "Down the Long Hills" was a western about two kids stranded on a mountain, and the search to find them. I couldn't put it down. I really enjoyed "The Haunted Mesa." He could write, but like many authors, he found his bread and butter (westerns) and kept buttering the bread, I think about three novels a year for a while.

A lot of authors are like that. They need to eat too, and they write what sells, and I can't fault them for that. But, in the middle of the average stuff, there are often a few jewels.

The one thing that I most admire L'Amour for is his ability to come-up with creative plots. He was a master of imaginative departures from the clich� Western short-story and novel plots.

Mr. Howell, I agree completely. I just wish he'd have done it more often.

My dad was a very enthusiastic reader. Some excellent books he introduced to me in the western genre that stood out are, "The Man Who Rode Midnight" by Elmer Kelton, "Gopher Dick" by Lee Sage (very hard to find), and "Monte Walsh" by Jack Schaefer. "Monte Walsh" is so different in style from "Shane" that you wouldn't realize they were written by the same author.

Some of the early work by Zane Gray was pretty good too, but he too began writing the same book over and over in later years.

I can't go to bed tonight without also mentioning my friends A B "Bud" Guthrie and Frank Bonham. Bud was always going to give a talk at one of my writing classes but always ran into a road block. Finally, he said "Ken, tell 'em for me that I spent all day on one sentence and felt like I'd done a good day's work."

That, guys, was a writer!

He also said that for every character whom he was writing about, he wrote from that character's point of view. That practice backfired on him when he created "Brother Weatherby," a Methodist preacher, as a comic foil in The Way West. "Weatherby" became a somewhat more sympathetic character than Bud had created him to be.

For the last year or so of his life, I drove Frank to his doctor appointments � a chore that his wife didn't like to be bothered with. I ran the ballistics numbers for the killer's long rifle shot in Frank's last novel, The Eye of the Hunter. That's the kind of attention to fine detail that makes a good writer good.

Frank was a very creative and artistic novelty wood-worker. I still have (I hope!) one of his "Skull Valley sardines," a wooden butter knife. (He lived in Skull Valley, near Bill Ruger's ranch.)

So out of Nosler's Reload Manual # 3:

"The longest measured shot I have taken on big game came with the 250. Using a lightweight Model 70 carbine with a 20 inch barrel, I dumped a sitka deer an honest 440 yds away..."

was all BS? that is good to hear!

as that is what I thought when I read it way back in the 80s when I first got the manual...

call me crazy.. but I have trouble believing someone who'd use the expression 'the antediluvian 250-3000' would be much of a long range shot... and more of a book worm, or someone who liked to look up and then use big words to make himself look a lot smarter than he really was....

I think that we all know by now that there's a world of difference between
(a) saying what you mean, precisely, whether that requires a big word or a little word, a common word or a thesaurus dinosaur
and
(b) using special words to impress readers with your (assumed) erudition.

Not everyone who uses "big words" is hiding behind 'em.

That was my exact impression at the same time and after comments here by John Barsness, one of very few gunscribes whom I do trust and believe, I decided that my original "gutlevel" feeling had been right.

One of the best posters ever to grace this site with his genuine knowledge and considerable epistolary skill, your fellow Oregonian, the late Allen Day, was very adept at "flushing out" posers and pompous bullsh*t artists. I wish that we had more posters with Allen's experience, knowledge and ability to do just that.

Crap, now I'm gonna hafta go look up erudition.....

If'n ya wuz already erudite, ya wouldn't hafta look it up.

Slang for the New Edition Evinrude

Do as you wish. I don't bother when women, smart people, and foreigners use code to keep me from knowing what they prefer to keep to themselves. I'm thinking us 'turdlike' folks fall into the group not meant to know - or certain to forget right away anyway . Grand Poobahs, however, can rain however they wish.

I'll keep it simple, just for you! (Unless you want to know more.)

Guns go "bang!"

Big guns go "boom."

Be careful where you point 'em.

They can hurt people.

(Do you mean rain, rein, or reign?)

Got the guns go bang part but still wondering:

Is Harvey working at a Yogurt shop?
Were his daughters unappealing even by bush standards?
Was the photo of the gal shooting the ULA .22-250 someone Else's wife like the game photos?

Only the last one would hurt. I read and re-read his stuff and even as a kid he seemed like a hack and I think I had shot more game by my late teens than he had by the time he published.

Good stuff on writers, thanks Ken and Steve.

When we met in my office, Clay told me that his ambition was to become rich and famous as a gun writer.

Oh, yeah! Sure! Good plan!

Well, he kinda did--but not through the normal methods!

Famous or infamous?

Jeff

Yep...and I'm gonna become rich and famous as a dog trainer....

Well, you might try converting the Clay Harvey method to another profession: Borrow dogs, then sell 'em.

Wanna buy a dog?












Oh, wait...I already dropped one off at your place.....

That's amusing...to say the least.

The guy who made-off with my inscribed Elmer Keith first editions made a fortune off 'em. I saw one go for $250 on e-bay.

And when my cartridge book was out of print, used copies went for as much as $800 apiece � classified as "rare." (Is that a euphemism for "half-baked?")

Not a nickel of which I got, of course.

I found this link in a quick google search for "Clay Harvey". Anyone know if this is the same as the gunwriter?

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/h/clay-harvey/

I assume that it is as another bookstore lists those titles along with "The Hunter's Rifle" and a couple of others with sporting book titles.

Something few know is that Allen Day wanted, probably more than anything, to be a gun writer.

We were friends from the time Allen was in his 20s until his very-premature death. He was a medium-sized man and quite excitable, which was part of his charm. He'd get all excited about one rifle and buy a bunch of them ... I'll never forget the time he literally bought every caliber of Weatherby Mark V, from the .224 to the 460.

Allen had those gorgeous rifles, all with matched grafted dark/light walnut, laying on our living room rug. Looking down on the vast collection of Weatherbys was the big dall sheep I killed in the Yukon. And we put a rocking-chair of a mountain caribou rack I killed amongst them. Allen took a lovely photo of that scene and said:,"Steve, Karen, any of these pretty rifles could have killed that sheep and that caribou, but I believe the only one we'd ever care to fire is the .257."

Yeah, probably true. And it always kinda pissed Al off that almost all of our critters were killed with the lowly .250 Ackley, .30-'06 and the .280 Ackley.

Anyway, back to Allen Day, the gun writer. For many, many years, his bachelor years, Allen would show up right at dinner time and he was always welcome. Usually, we'd spend at least one night a week, just bullshitting about guides, hunting, just stuff.

After dinner, Allen would sit back, nip off a bit of his beloved Copenhagen. I'd shove my right cheek full of Red Man (I loved that stuff) and we'd nip a bit of the mornin' dew ... whatever finest whiskey one of us had. Allen would spit in his Dixie Cup and pontificate on his newest gunny treasure. How many mornings did I wander around the house cleaning up five or ten brown-spit filled Dixie Cups ... so Karen didn't have to do it.

I swallowed Red Man, which was much neater ... and kept me from getting worms when I scarf down raw deer and elk liver

Often, he'd have a manuscript of something he'd written. And writing got a little better with each attempt. I tried my level best to guide him along; giving Al a feel for word-flow and and trying desperately form his attempts at outdoors writing. He honestly could have made it, given time, practice an a million words.

I've often wondered what happened to Allen's writings. There are probably twenty or thirty fairly finished articles out there ... somewhere and unpublished.

And, my goodness, did Allen love to fart. He believed in his heart that dogs were put upon this earth for him to sit upon and torch off a BIG ONE. Our Scotty Dogs at the time, Mac and Megan, were totally docile and they smelled like Allen farts for hours after he left.

Some of you might remember that huge-bodied blacktail I killed up the Clackamas River. Allen was with me on that hunt. He was in our store, tlling me about a little forked-horn mulie he'd killed in eastern Oregon ... suddenly, he said "Steve, when are you going to show me how to hunt blacktails?"

That was on a Monday and I responded, "I have a day off tomorrow. Be at our home at 4AM and we'll go kill a big one." Allen didn't know I had a buck scouted-out and all I had to do was press the trigger, but the country was horrible and I needed an extra strong back to carry him out."

At four in the morning, Allen showed up in his little Bronco (or was it his Scout?) and we took Dead Meat the truck (78 Chevy) up Fish Creek and out onto the landing I'd shoot from.

It was dark, we got into position and with the first light, I spotted my buck. I tasked Allen to watch and I slowly squeezed the trigger of my .280LT. The buck took the bullet beneath the ear and flipped over. His white belly looked like a white Coke bottle ... unmoving.

We got our packs ready and Allen said, "This is bad, isn't it?" I answered, "Allen, you are the best person I could ever think of to be by my side, humping this miserable bugger of a hill."

I'm not going to describe it, but let's just say it took four hours to slip and slide down the canyon wall, climb the little island where the buck was standing, gut him and carry him back to the truck.

Karen and I killed three to four elk each year during those days, so our deer went to an old lady friend of ours, Mamie Buchanan. Allen was fine with that ... we'd hump Mamie's buck out ... with pride.

The last nice thing Allen did for me was to have Tom Turpin send me Tom's book, Mastery of Wood and Metal - David Miller Co. Allen asked Tom to nicely inscribe the frontspiece of the book. This is the message:

To Steve "Dogzapper" Timm,
Our mutual pal, Allen Day, wanted you to have a copy of this book. I sincerely ope you enjoy it. Hopefully, one of these days, we will out and do a bit of dog shooting again.
All the best,
Tom Turpin
Sierra Vista, AZ
March, 2006


I've been thinking quite a bit about Allen lately, so I've been re-reading Tom's fabulous book. Allen is as much a book as Tom is.

In reading the book and in participating in this thread, I'm stuck by one thing. Tom Turpin is truly a fantastic writer and he has field experience that few of us will ever equal ... surely not me.

Tom's writing is magnificently descriptive and yet he uses almost no words over three or four syllables, plus they are words we all know. And Tom's photographs of David Miller and Curt Crum crafting those highest-quality rifles is beyond compare.

Yeah, even though Allen is no longer with us, he is within all of us. The nice little thing he did, the childlike excitement about new stuff, just being Allen. Oh, by the way, that spread of Weatherbys all went back to Larry's Sporting Goods the next week ... Lordy, Allen must have token a bath on that one.

Allen loved the Lord. He enjoyed a mega-church, Rolling Hills Church, out on I-205 and I believe he and Beth moved to a church closer to home before he died.

The last time we talked, Allen suddenly piped up, "So you guys are Catholic, you are the original Christians, I totally respect you folks and your strict beliefs. Heck yes, I could be Catholic; easily, very easily."

I didn't respond ... none was needed. He saw it and liked the direction of our lives. And, at the same time, Allen followed his own direction, finding Our Lord in his own way. Respect is always better than separation and hatred.

Allen Day, you left us too soon. I love you, you Scotty-farting-on tough little bugger. Dammit, I miss you; and I'll be seeing you soon.

God Bless,

Steve

With every post you make here, Steve, I come to like you more and more as your humanity and decency shine through your words in a manner so akin to that of my late father that I am reminded of him....a Knight of Columbus for 70 years, longtime "Alter Boy" and a man who was the very epitome of generosity to everyone....a REAL Catholic.

So, my good and valued friend, do not be in any great hurry to join Allen, eternity is a long time and we shall all get there when our time comes.

Ken, you shock me ... aren't ALL gun writers rich and famous?

A beautiful story of friends,thank you for sharing with us. If I had lived closer to you,it would have been me at your house if you had let me come over.

I suspect that you and Allen and I will all meet together pretty soon,life here is just a mist,here and gone all too quick.

Great read Steve. Thanks.

Steve you sure have a way with the written word. As I said Allen was one of the Good Guys and you too.

Steve
Many thanks for your story. Allen seems to have been a little bit like me-excitable and a kid in a toy shop with new goodies.
I'm glad to see this thread move away from Clay Harvey.
Thanks again.

Well, after getting through the first few pages of this thread I'm guessing there's a better than average chance that my PRISTINE copy of "The Hunter's Rifle" by Clay Harvey is not a collectors item. LOL!!

if it is pristine, then the chances are it wasn't worth reading anyway.

Though my choice was intentional, I think you understand what I meant - mostly (as if I even do sometimes!)

While I am pretty common and simple mostly, I do appreciate language and am generally bored by stuff that doesn't cause me to study the context of some words for the clues to their meaning. Of course, I have watched idiots 'become somebody' by using the dictionary to make themselves become smarter, older, and wiser as well. If anything, my pretense might take me back the other way.

This thread has degenerated into something decent and respectable. Well done, gentlemen! And a great post by ol' dz. Ken, it's always good to read your posts, too. Gives the place a touch of klass.

Indeed. Bravo to Dr. Ken and Steve. The turn was much appreciated.

Well, maybe they started out that way...................

To prolong the suspense before awarding the grand prize (ten million dollars), the emcee asked the three finalists what they'd do with the money if they won.

� "I'd pay-off the mortgage on our house, invest the rest, and retire on the interest," the laborer said.

� "I'd open another store in the next town," the merchant said.

� "I'd just keep on farmin' 'til it was all gone."