.

Discussing shotguns and the maker's relative pros and cons is very enjoyable.

At a gunshow one can listen for hours while the proponents of the Parkers, L C Smiths, Fox, Ithaca, Lefever, etc debate why one or the other is better.

It seems like the one shotgun that brings distasteful comments is the Winchester Model 21. In the last two days have heard it declared that no one can hit with one, the point of aim is way too low, the barrels change POI frequently, the barrels must be bent to make them hit, the two barrels never point in the same general direction with one barrel hitting way left and low and the other hitting way right and still further lower, etc. Have been told that the gun makers from Winchester have been interrogated under bright lights and admitted all these things and more.

Yet, the Model 21 enjoys popularity in the gun market and was made as long if not longer than the Parker, Smith, Fox, etc.


The question is...

Is the Winchester Model 21 just a wall hanger for bragging rights among the well-to-do,

Or can one actually take the Model 21 to the range, shoot respectable scores, and even hunt with it in the field ?

Thoughts ?

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Helllll yes. It is built like a tank and works just fine.

Have those experts splain how two barrels dovetailed together change POI but two soldered together don't.?

You can tell by how cheap they go for at big house auctions what crap they are (LOL)

Any of these "experts" who were BSing you own any 21s or did you have one they were trying to buy?

I will admit they don't have the grace of a Holland & Holland but they work.

Someone was really feeding you a line of bull. Maybe not the prettiest side by side ever made, but definitely the strongest. I've never heard of any problems with them not shooting straght.

And will continue to work when an H&H is dead if it doesn't have it annual tune up when used hard.

Some Winchester 21 info: The fact that they shot where you pointed them was never in question.

http://books.google.com/books?id=9S...AkQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=&f=false

I've owned a half dozen 21s and never found any of those problems except the stock fit on most was not for me.....only had one that fit really nice.

They are very strong yet simple.

A long time ago John Olin tried destructing testing a Wicnhester Model 21 against a Purdey Best Gun and a Spanish make (AYA, I think) and found that the AYA took more than 100,000 rounds after the Purdey went off the face and the Winchester 21 just wouldn;t break down. After he shot 250,000 rounds more than after the Purdey went kaput, he stopped testing because the Model 21 just wouldn't stop working. He published his findings in The American Rifleman and blew the myth of "Best" British quality away with evidence that was incontestable. Sadly, a craze for everything made elsewhere and with names that have more to do with "reputation" (I prefer to call it "marketing hype') continues to sell other brand names at joke prices to those who have more money in their bank accounts than information in their minds.

The Winchester 21 was (and is) a great gun - possibly the strongest SxS shotgun design ever. And the top of the line versions were embellished as well as any of the more worshipped marques made anywhere else. If someone has access to the American Rifleman archives or to the issue in question, they might want to re-read Olin's article. It is well worth enjoying and I have always wondered why Tony Galzan has not used to promote his guns. He is the one keeping the Model 21 flame burning, after all . . .

I have 2 12s, 1 16 & 2 20s. The 12s are heavy & clumsy the 16 is perfect for me, the 20's are a case set that are onlly used at sporting clays. I tried probably 50 before I found 1 that fits, the pre war 12 ga don't fit me at all.

There is no doubt that 21's are among the strongest doubles made, mostly because there's so much distance between the hinge and locking mechanism. (There isn't very much distance between the hinge and typical Purdey double-underbolt used in British doubles, the reason they tend to shoot loose over time--and were typically taken back to the maker for "maintenance" after a hard season on driven pheasants.)

But there are other side-by-side shotguns that stay tight basically forever without the 21's basic clunkiness, especially in 12-gauge. I know a lot of people revere everything Winchester, but I have never been able to fall in love with the 12-gauge 21 in any form, especially when there are European doubles (and some older American doubles) that are just as tough and more graceful, and don't require the "Winchester premium" to purchase.

"mostly because there's so much distance between the hinge and locking mechanism. (There isn't very much distance between the hinge and typical"

Hate to disagree, but that is not the reason. The reason is that the 21 was made of heat treated chrome moly steel, where the Purdeys, H & H, Parker, Ithica, Fox, L.C. Smith and most others were made from case hardened mild steel. The longer flats did make a difference, but it was primarily the steel that gave the added strength.

The stock of a 21 broke during these test, but I don't think Olin made mention of that.

This was good enough, most times, with normal field loads of about 10,000 PSI, and they would last a lifetime, or several lifetimes, but over time, they could shoot loose. The first sign of failure was usually the barrels seperating from the breech, creating a condition of excess head space.

The heat treated chrome moly steel was much stronger in this respect. The 21 withstood 2000 proof loads without any measurable change in dimensions. The proof loads, IIRC, were around 18,000 PSI. This would have been PSI as determined from Lead crusher gauges, or LUP, at the time the tests were made. I don't know how LUP would compare with actual PSI as measured by a Piezo gauge.

Olin proved it was the improved steel by making a few 21s from case hardened mild steel, and they did not fare much better than the other case hardened shotguns of the era.

I am writing this from memory, I have the results of the origininal tests somewhere, but the Purdey was second best with about 160 proof loads, probably due to the double underbolt type of locking system. The Darne did about the same. The Ithica was determined to be unsafe to fire after about 3 proof loads, and the Parkers and others didn't do much better, 10 to 20 proof loads.

If I had to choose one shotgun to own, and no more, it would be a Model 21 in 20 gage, SST, with 28" tubes; choking would be unimportant.

Mule Deer,

Would you give some examples of European doubles (and older American doubles) that are as strong and more graceful than the M21 but that don't carry the Winchester premium. I am always in the market for something like that. What should I be looking for?

Thanks, RS

DMB.. I agree if you are just hunting upland birds but like 26" because I use mine on quail & doves. If I lived in the midwest I'd want a 16ga. They are only a few oz. heavier and I am in love with mine although I only use mine when going to upscale places. For years my using shotguns were a Beretta 390 12ga and a m21 16 ga with 28" M& IC. I just bought a a400 to replace the 390 & now usually use a 20ga Citori because I can change tubes when dove hunting.

Ripsnort,

In general, German guns are very strong, because they usually use a "third fastener" such as a Greener crossbolt in addition to the typical underlugs used on British guns. In particular the Sauer and Merkel side-by-sides are good buys.

Parkers really aren't anything special, except for the fact that their fit and finish were better than many other guns (the reason there is also a "Parker premium"). The Foxes and Ithacas (especially the New Ithaca Double) were also quite strong. I shot a Fox Sterlingworth 12 for many years, made in 1911. It was still really tight after almost a century, and was just as tight when I sold it. Right now I have an Ithaca Flues model (the last before the NID) made around 1920 that is also very tight. It weighs 7 pounds, is choked perfectly for open-country shooting, and though it was obviously used a lot, is still very tight--and a lot of the case-color is still there. I picked it up at a gun show for $575.

The Ithacas weren't as nicely finished as Foxes or, especialy Parkers, but they were very good guns, Both Foxes and Ithacas used a rotary bolt as a fastener on a barrel extension, the reason for their strength. The rotary bolt is also self-adjusting to a a certain extent, the reason a Fox or Ithaca holds up

The big problem with some older American shotguns is the stock dimensions. Early in the 20th century many had buttstocks with a lot more drop than nowadays. But as we have seen on this thread, stock dimensions on the 21 can also be problematic.

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Would a 1950's vintage Winchester Model 21 have the stock problems that you're mentioning ?

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It depends on the individual gun and the individual. My M21 is a Trap grade model made for box-bird shooting. It has parallel dimensions and I shoot it well. I recently handled a M21 Custom grade 20ga. that fit me like a dream. Most 21s that I have handled (and that would be in the hundreds) have WAY too much drop for me. You got to kiss a lot of frogs........
RS

MD, Thanks for the info.

Exactly. Stock dimensions on shotguns are very individual. I am pretty lucky in the "average" stock dimensions fit me pretty well, but i still have to modify them now and then. Sometimes, too, as our body and face changes throughout life, the dimensions that fit us perfectly when we were 25 don't work so well when we're 50.

Agree w/ JB on the M21 assessment. Lots of steel. Hard to find a 12 gauge less than 8#, or a 16 less than 7. Having said that, the 16s especially have a nice feel, despite their weight. The 20s also seem a bit heavy for gauge. They are good guns, just not my cup of tea, especially with the prices they are fetching these days.

For the money a new one, the best ever produced BTW, including those at Winchester in the heyday, I'd sooner have a similarly priced product of Italy.

The Winchesters have a cult following that is raising the prices beyond the inherent value of the guns, IMO. Same has occurred with the Model 70s and most of its lever guns.

I had a Birmingham Brit 12 SXS and one Mdl 21 years ago in 12ga. The Brit gun was too fragile, and the Mdl 21 was like toting a tank around the field.

I much prefer my German doubles. They are strong and a great middle ground...not too heavy, but not overly light. The workmanship is there, also. Don't count out French and Belgian guns, either.

What's the going rate for a M21? I think a 12 or 16ga M/IC in Vg is about $3,500 and a 20 with the same set up is about $4,000.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Winchester 21 is a very strong gun that will last several lifetimes and handle much more shooting than other high grade shotguns.

However, to me, this is a non-issue as the "typical" shooter will never run hundreds-of-thousands of rounds through any "hunting" gun. A dedicated skeet shooter or a British shooter who regularly hunts driven game "might" eventualy shoot a shotgun loose......most shooters will not put even 100,000 shots through a shotgun in 50 years.

The Model 21 is very strong, but that is also why I've never liked them. They are too heavy and boxy to ever be truely graceful. It's a flaw of the boxlock design.....not a "Winchester" problem. No boxlock shotgun can ever be as trim and graceful as even a lower grade sidelock. Winchester built the 21 to be strong, simple and reliable......then tried to "guild the lilly" with showy wood and engraving and inlays. That's a loosing stratagy.

Even the most graceful of the boxlocks, the Parker and A.H. Fox, fall short of the grace and beauty of sidelocks like the L.C. Smith and Holland & Holland. I find that the very low grade sidelocks like the Crescent Arms models (which were working-man's guns) are better looking and feel/shoot better for me than even a $5,000 boxlock.

May be just me, but a high-grade boxlock is like saying a high-class fat girl. You can dress her in beautiful clothes, fix her hair, slather on the make-up and cover her with sparkly jewelry.......and you still have a fat girl underneith it all.

The way you guys are describing the M21, I have a 16ga Stevens 5100 that is every bit the gun and only cost me $325 in like-new condition. I was always under the impression that the M21 was something "special." I remember drooling over the pictures in the 1960s color catalogs showing the "M21 Grand American" guns and thinking they must be the best of the best. Live and learn, I guess.

"I remember drooling over the pictures in the 1960s color catalogs showing the "M21 Grand American""

I still drool over them. The pictures are as close as I will ever come to one, though, but it doesn't cost anything to dream.

Ever seen pictures of the Grand Royal?

Hammer,

My Model 21 is a twelve gauge, two barrel set with single trigger and straight grip stock. It was built in 1935 according to the Cody letter. The 26" barrels are Sk1 & Sk2, the 30" are M & F.

I've had this gun a bit over three years. I've used it to shoot skeet, trap, sporting clays, five stand and helice. I've also used it for a bit of dove hunting and I've used it a number of times on pen raised quail and pheasant hunts. I've even shot a few ducks with it with soft non-toxic ammo.

The gun is, in my opinion, good looking and I have been pleased with the scores I have been able to shoot with it and the way I have shot it in the field. I particularly enjoy shooting this shotgun at sporting clays and five stand and upland hunting.

I have really enjoyed owning and shooting this shotgun. If you get a chance to shoot one give it a try.

Rick,

Boxlocks are inherently lighter guns than sidelocks. But...and granted...they don't have the "grace" of a sidelock.

A round action boxlock is about as light as a SXS can be made.

Big Redhead, the Steven's 5100 may well have been the most shotgun for the money in the 1950-1960's. Reasonable grace and balance for a great price.....and tough as hell.

I have a Parker 12 bore built in 1901with 30" IC and Full barrels. While I would agree it's no Winchester M-21 it is nicely finished and the origional stock sorta fits me. I take it out to shoot 5 stand clays at least once a month.

The Parker was a gift so my $$$ investment is without bias.

Doc

You want to get at the working parts-or show off the working parts-a sidelock wins. You want to have a panel for some scratching a sidelock wins. However, both a boxlock and sidelock can be made to balance and handle equally well.

The inletting on a sidelock has more of a tendency to cause stock cracks if not done to perfection.

The 21 mechanically is an excellent gun and built like a tank. I think they're horribly over-priced and I think the aesthetic inspiration for the receiver was a 2x4. I'd take one if it was given to me, but if I were parting with my hard earned cash, I could find something as good or better for a good deal less cash. But having something with the Winchester stamp means something to a lot of people.

Plain and simple the Model 21 was the best of America. This is why they will continue to be a good investment. One that not only will appreciate over time, but will remain useful for several lifetimes.

I'll probably ruffle some feathers but I am not an real advocate of the 21. The loosest functioning double I've seen was a 21 but I will say right out that the owner had no clue about lubricating and maintaining the gun. He caused it's problems through ignorance. The gun would rattle when shook but still took a lot of ducks despite it's condition. That said, if he would have sold it I would have bought it and had it repaired. The weight and balance made it a great waterfowl gun. They are relatively heavy compared to some other guns. The Foxes were the solidest American made box locks in my exposure to the breed. They employed the best of design combined with good handling. I still shoot a Sterlingworth and it's as tight as a drum after a lot of use. The Parkers were lively and lovely with great balance but not as strong as the Foxes and a lot of them came off the face. I have had shooting little exposure to L.C. Smiths of any grade. Relatively few of them made it to Canada it seems. I've restocked a couple and for the most part they seemed pretty solid but they were a different action type. In the end they were all great guns but the typical North American shooter did not have them maintained to the same standards that an English owner of a an H & H or Purdey or, whatever would have done.

My 30"Parker DH and 28" Win 21(Mr.Eng's) both weigh 7lb.8 oz.as you can see on their order form's, and handle like wand's.In fact my 27" Win 23 "Custom" weigh's more than my 12ga. 21's!!! Don't know where the weight thing started with 21's because it's a crock of chit.People who say their heavy either read it somewhere or most likely never handled or owned one.Their built strong because of the steel's used(chrome-molybdenum)which has nothing to do with their weight. http://photobucket.com/sqweeler i5

I grew up reading O'Conner. I hit the ripe age of 14 in '51. I grew up on a farm in the rolling plains of central west Texas. Loved guns. My dream gun was a Winchester 21. You could order a field grade from the Ward's catalog for $325. I had handled the live models in our annual trek to Ft. Worth to sell cattle. I had my eye on the 16 ga. I had pestered Dad for some time about buying one. We finally made a deal involving several projects and a lot of goals, both on and off the farm. Good harvests, reasonable commodity prices, and meeting or exceeding all the projects/goals brought this close to a reality in '52. Dad said the 21 was a "GO." Stepping back just a bit, one could get a drivers license in Texas (population under 6 million at the time) at 14 under certain conditions. At 15, I was beginning to eye a brown haired/eyed girl that lived a few miles away. When Dad said yes, I began to have second thoughts. Maybe I needed a car worse than a shotgun? To make a long story short, Dad was an easy mark for the second car deal. At my age and wanting to go and do, plus the utility of a second vehicle around the farm, Dad readily swapped my longed for 21 purchase for a shared interest in a used vehicle. Story ending: A few years later I married the girl, and 55 years later in a couple of weeks, I still have her. My only regret is that I never had a 21! Nice shotguns, yes-21, no. I may have made the better deal after all. The mother of my three children is still fairly trim, attractive, pleasant and has indulged my gun habits for lo these many years. Do not tell her that I traded a shotgun for her!!!! jt

I have never had a Mo.21,but have always admired them.An older friend has one in 20 Ga. Skeet & Skeet that he lets me borrow for Grouse.I get more Grouse with that shotgun than any other I have ever used.Hoping it will be mine one day!!!

I have a model 21, 20 ga. Skeet with A carved wood. It's sleek and trim.

I like your story. I'm fond of my 21, but I think you made the right decision.

DF

Of all the "classic" American douldes, I like the Model 21 the least. It's true they are very strong and many came with very fine engraving and wood, but the basic design is too heavy and even more so, with little "grace". Someone mentioned that the inspiration for the Model 21 action must have been a 2X4.....and that's not far from wrong, just too blocky and squared off to ever be graceful.

To me, the Model 21 reminds me of a high grade Russian shotgun such as the Bakial. They are awkward, blocky, and heavy....but dead tough and will shoot "forever". All the high grade wood, engraving and gold inlay work in the world just can't hide the basic flaws of the Model 21. Someone else compared the model 21 to the Stevens 5100 and I think that's pretty close. The Winchester "might" be a bit better made, but if one were to add fine wood and a bit of engraving to the basic 5100.....it would be very good competition for the Model 21.....at half the price.

I admit I like the sidelock doubles much better than any boxlock. I grew up in a family of hunters who carried L.C Smiths, Lefevers and a few Crescent doubles and still love them. I'd rate them L.C Smith first, followed by the Lefever, Baker and finally the Crescent (which I think is a real "sleeper" among classic doubles....a "working man's double, but very well balanced and made).

Of the classic boxlocks, I'd rate the A.H. Fox as the equal to the Baker and Lefever sidelocks and the "best" of the boxlock actions. The Parker is a good gun, but very much over-rated. The Model 21 would rate next, primarily due to good wood and engraving.....NOT great design.

The J. Stevens 5100 and Ithaca doubles are very good "using" guns (I rate them just below the Model 21)....but not so nice to carry or look at.

The various shotguns from "across the water" are sometimes good too. Of course the British guns are very fine.....even though just a bit "delicate". Better made are the Italian and Spanish doubles In fact I consider the Spanish guns to be the "best buy" in the double field. Under-rated (and therefor cheaper), they are well balanced and strong in the better grades, and a very good choice (particularly the sidelock models).

The German guns are certainly strong, but like the Model 21, generally leave something to be desired as far as grace and light weight. The Russian guns are built to be used....not admired.

Don Criswell, a long-time southern California shotgun dealer/shooter and the technical consultant on Ned Schwing's M-21 book, told me that he put over 500,000 rounds through one of his M-21s and the only thing he replaced was the hinge pin.

Steven's 5100 & Crescent,my wife came down the hallway to find out why I've been laughing for 10 minutes.Thanks

sqweeler your not laughing alone!

Rick,

Model 21, Skeet 20 ga. Top gun in photo, close ups of checkering and butt stock below.

Pretty sleek, not too clunky...

DF

As I said earlier, Model 21's often had GREAT wood.....but that doesn't make up for the squared off, crude action.

I've owned Italian (Piotti), Spanish (Garbi) and classic American (Parker) doubles and they're pretty sleek and nice. The 21 may not be as sleek as those, but at least in 20 Ga., it's no slouch. The 12 Ga. guns are bigger and heavier. Some of those others have gone down the road, but I still have this one (and a Garbi sidelock 28 ga.). This 21 fits me perfectly and it's a keeper.

DF

While no ones definition of "sleek" or "fancy"--they aren't without charm.

This one is my 12 ga. skeet gun. With a factory straight stock and 28" barrels, it's not the most dynamic double, but neither does it handle like the proverbial "pig on a shovel." Model 21's suffer from a high Moment of Inertia (MOI) when measured on one of Don Amos' mechanisms, compared to many of their American counterparts and all but the pigeon and heavy fowler versions of the English guns. It's hard to find an English pigeon gun over 7.5 pounds and it's hard to find a Model 21 Trap, Skeet or Duck under 7.75 lbs. When compared to English game guns, the differences are striking: MOI of 2.02 for Model 21 Duck compared to 1.67 for a Purdey SLE. Unfortunately the Model 21 had a relatively small production history (<35,000 IIRC) and many had 26" barrels in large bore size/weights which combine to make for poor MOI. Long barreled 20 & 16 ga (which were built on the 20 ga. frame) measure out to have pretty good MOI (1.06 for 28" 20 ga. that weighs 6 1/4 lbs.) Those measurements are close to being considered "sleek"!

My Garbi 28 ga. is quicker than my 20 ga. M-21, but not by a whole bunch. The 21 Skeet handles pretty well. I think fit and the "chemistry" one has with a gun is important. In that realm, the 21 is a strong contender...

DF

Anybody who doesn't want theirs, send it to me. They're American guns and are meant to be toted and shot, not like English guns which are meant to be handed to the Gun and swung on driven game.

How many 21s have you seen go off face?

I sure enjoy owning my 20 gauge Springfield by Stevens - it is a nice little utilitarian but solidly built shotgun, mid-1940's vintage:



But, it is not in the same class as even an early, mid-30's M21. This version has the stock which gave it the clubby reputation, but it swings well for me and stands heads and shoulders above the Stevens. Additionally it is as tight today as it ever was and I am the third owner of the gun. Well built and very good quality to boot - I'll take all that Gene passes on (fat chance huh?)

I have a real soft spot for the model 21. I am not good enough at the shotgunning sports to really tell it doesnt swing as well or it doesnt have the right MOI..When I hold a 21 it feels like I am holding one of the best things America could make. I miss my share of skeet, or a squirrel every now and then, but I figure I would have missed also with a 100k H&H. Here is my straight grip 1941 custom 12ga. in skeet/skeet.

Nice, WV, notwithstanding...

DF

Cartod that is a very fine looking M21 right there. Perfect grouse gun.

...Cartod, I apologize for giving the impression that there's a "right" or "wrong" MOI. I was just making the point (poorly) that swing effort is objective and measurable and typical Model 21's weren't configured to have especially low swing efforts---that doesn't mean that it's not "right" or feel perfect for anybody in particular---it just helps to explain some of the subjective assessments that the Model 21 has traditionally been stuck with.

BTW, you have a beautiful Model 21--something about a straight grip on them that really is appealing.

Thank you gmoats, No appologies,,,It still wont make me a better shot...;)
Here is my 1934 20 gauge 21 trap grade, shown with a 1948 englished stocked M12 Trap grade.

That is a great story, thank you for sharing.

The stock finish on those older, high grade 21s is the nicest I have ever seen.

Does anyone know what type of finish was used and how they did it?