Hello,I've been lurking around for a couple of years now and have learned alot from this forum and enjoyed it.I finally got signed up so here's my question.Why would a person order a 284 win instead of a 7mm08 when according to the Barnes#4 manuel 6.5 grains more powder only gets you 30fps more.I've already got 7/08's and have been reading about resurgence of this caliber.So what's ya'lls take on this caliber.

Bobby,welcome to the CF!

The 284 has greater powder capacity than the 7/08, more like a 280 or 270 and is theoretically capable of higher velocity, such things as equal barrel length and equal pressures,use of optimum loads, etc. being taken into consideration.

This of course will vary with the rifle,and the guy doing the loading,and how much pressure he is willing to accept.

Nosler 6 shows well over 100fps difference.

Because the .284 has a larger case capacity than the 7-08, when loaded to equal pressure the .284 will push the same bullet faster than the 7-08.

Yeah, like Bob said!

My 284 about equals 280 Rem ballistics.
Very little difference in performance.
The BIG + for the 284 is that is can work in a short action.

Bobby,

Another hearty Campfire welcome!

In handloading we all need to remember that each and every rifle is a law unto itself.

Also, The loading manuals are merely a GUIDE. As evidenced by the above, manuals can and do vary significantly.

I have four 7mm/08's and two .284 Win's. I like the 284's a lot. Mostly 'cuz it's such a COOL looking case. In all honesty, anything I can or will do with a .284 can just as easily be done with the 7mm08. But that's just me. (I also have a couple of .280's and a 7x64 Brenneke...)

According to the 1/4 Rule (any increase in powder capacity results in 1/4 that much increase in muzzle velocity, at the same pressure) the .284 should get about 4% more velocity than the 7mm-08, everything else being equal.

For instance, if the 7mm-08 is capable of 2900 fps with a 140-grain bullet in a 24" barrel, then the .284 should be able to get around 3016 fps with a 140 from a 24" barrel.

Personally, I've owned 7mm-08's and .284's and was never all that impressed with the relatively small gain possible from the .284. If you really want a significant increase from the 7mm-08 in a short action, in my experience the way to go is either the 7mm SAUM or WSM. My 7mm SAUM will easily get 3200+ from 140's.

I would like a .284W. The only drawback I can see is that it is essentially a re-loaders cartridge. Doubt there are many choices out there in factory dress if one does not make their own or unfortunately comes up short at the wrong time. With that in mind the 7mm-08 beats it every which way.

Another welcome!

I've had 3 or 4 284's. With the 140 grainers, I could get 3050 with about 55 grains of IMR4350. Pressures seemed moderate and cases lasted forever.

Thanks for the welcome and replies.I am considering a NULA and can't make up my mind on cartridge.I am emptying my safe and looking for an all around rifle with maybe a little cool factor too.I do reload although am not near as experienced as most here.I don't think saimi specs on 284 are as high as 7/08 so I guess that leaves some room to play with in a modern 284 such as a NULA.Feel free to correct me if wrong.Any and all input appreciated.

You want the ultimate cool NULA get one chambered for the wonderful 7x57!
118 years young and still one of the best balanced cartridges out there.
The NULA was designed to handle the 7x57 case as well and that's why the 3" long mag on the Model 20.

Just had a Nula in 7mm-08 but together this past spring. Upon picking it up Mr. Forbes said: "Take it and go shoot just about whatever you want within reason." When I originally said 7mm-08 he never mentioned to go .284W which was his baby at one time.

Bobby,

Talk to Melvin about the .284 vs. 7mm-08 question. Last I heard he was recommending the 7mm-08 because the quality of Winchester .284 brass wasn't quite as good as it was a few years ago. Of course you could neck up 6.5/.284 brass from Lapua or Norma, but that's yet another step and kinda pricey as well.

Oh, and welcome to the Fire!

Thanks everyone. MD I did talk to Mr Forbes,very nice fellow by the way,and he said the main problem with brass was that the necks needed to be turned which he offered to do for me.Talk about customer service.Corbon also makes ammo if in a bind.Just can't make up mind to be practible or cool.I already have two 7/08's.Decisions,Decisions.

I've always thought a NULA in 6.5-284 would be way cool!!! Just to muddy the waters a bit... If I was going 7mm I'd probably lean towards the 7X57AI or the 284.

Welcome Bobby.

The good news is that you literally can't make a bad decision with what's in front of you. There is little to no appreciable difference between the two. I've owned, loaded for, and shot both. If there is an animal alive that would react differently when shot with a 140 from either one I'm not aware of it.

I'd go 7-08 myself simply because of the availability of brass, load data, factory ammo, etc.

p.s. GREAT call on going NULA.

I'm not a gun writer but Mule Deer is right; on the other hand each rifle being a law unto itself, my 284 with a 23" barrel gets a "relaxed" 3100 fps with the 140-gr TTSX, a very lonnnnng bullet and with the "new" R17. Though perhaps a "fast" 284 and thus an anomaly, this is not enough below 7mm SAUM (a very good cartridge I think) in power to notice the difference--just like the difference from the 7mm-08 to the .284. It's a matter of degrees and not always that much as you move to one cartridge above another in the same caliber and the "famous" all-things- being-equal. It's not 'till you get a couple more rungs up the latter that you really may notice the difference in power from your starting point. I.e, say, from the 7mm-08 going to the .280 AI. As mentioned, it--the .284--can be put in a nice, neat, light package; mine weighs just over six pounds with a 2.5-10 aboard, a lot of power for such a light package. The 7mm SAUM, also a short fatty, brings a few more problems to building such a package: feeding issues because of it's girth according to more than one gunsmith. Of course the 7mm-08 suffers from no such problem and can be made up as light as any .284.

Yes, the .284 is a good cartridge but depending on your criteria, no better than the 7mm-08, the 280, the 270, or any other "deer, goat, sheep, elk class" cartridge.

edited to add that from a purely pragmatic perspective you'd go with the '-08 or perhaps the 7x57 as already stated.

If ordering a new rifle I would choose 7/08, but if I came across a good used .284 I would not shy away.

I used to hunt with a friend who had a .284 in a M88 and it was pretty accurate for a danged old lever action.

The reason to buy a 284 is because while a Savage 99 may be pricey in 284, it can be had. The few Savage 99's out there in 7mm08 are just bloody ridiculous in price, plus they're all clip models.

It's not like there's other models of guns that matter...



284 circa 1966:

hey calhoun i know where there is one in 7mm-08 and it staying there grin

IMO the 284 shines in a Savage 99 and thats about it..It certainly is a fine cartridge but in a good bolt action my all time favorite and always will be is a long magzine, long throated 7x57 loaded with large doses of H414 Powder and any bullet weight..With it I can equal about any 7 mm caliber including the factory loaded Remington 7 mm magnum, but not the handloaded 7 magnum..the long magazine and long throat will duplicate the 7x57 Ackley Imp. with ease, but without modifying the case and only with H414 as far as I can tell.

You might want to check this out on Accurate Shooter. It has some very good info on the various 7MM. They are quoting up to 2950FPS with 180 grain bullet in a 284 with RL17 powder. Most of this is by Bryan Litz, Berger Bullet's ballistician and has a doctorate in projectiles.
http://www.6mmbr.com/7mm284.html

Butch

I'm trying to track Melvin's thinking.

Winchester 284 brass is not up to quality.
Is Winchester making their 7mm-08 brass better?
He surely can't recommend Remington 7mm-08 brass as being superior.
That leaves Norma and that brass is usually on back order and just about as spendy as Lapua 6.5-284 brass.


I'd go 284 Win all the way using Win brass.
You'll gain 200 fps to 250 fps over the 7mm-08 or 7x57.

That's a substantial gain and the same that a magnum case would gain over an 06 sized case.

Total bs.

A short bolt action 284 win will get 3,050 with a 140.




And even more bull.

Cartridge water case capacities.

7-08 Rem 56
7x57(R) Mauser 59
.284 Win 66
.280 Rem 67
7x65R 68
7 WSM 81
7 Rem Mag 84

284 is one I don't have. I have the wildcat 25-284 though. If you can get 200fps more out of a 284, I'd say go for it. Can you get a decent COAL with a 284? With my 25-284, I can't go far out as I'd like to, with a standard sized mag box.

Calvin,

In my 6.5-284 I'm getting 250 fps over my 260 with pressures in the low 60K range.

While I'm a 7x57 slut I have to call bull on it matching .280 Rem velocities, let alone the 7RM.

I'll also agree with SU that Winchester brass is superior to Remington brass.

I don't know what rifle SU has but the OP is looking at the NULA which sports a 3" magazine.

I use a SA 700 incorporating a Wyatts box that takes it out to 2.990. I generally load to 2.975 to 2.985.

QL shows it getting about 250ish on my 7-08. I don't have a 284 to verify though.

SU35,

If you are getting 250 fps over the 7-08 with the .284 then you are loading the .284 to much higher pressures. It's that simple. You're getting 7mm SAUM velocities. That doesn't happen at the same pressures in a smaller cartridge.

The big difference in .284 and 7mm-08 brass is that the 7mm-08 is popular enough that it the ammo manufacturers replace their brass forming dies when they start to get a little worn. .284 brass doesn't sell as well, in fact I doubt they are making much of a profit on it, so the dies tend to get used even after they're pretty worn. So yes, major manufacturer 7mm-08 brass does tend to be more uniform.

You guys, read the link that I posted. It has facts and not what the guy said a the gunrange.
Butch

(with the 6.5-284 i am over the 260)using both Magnum and RL 17)

With RL17? I'm not the only one using this powder and gaining higher speeds within pressure limits. I'm a stickler for staying at and under 65K with everything I shoot.

I stretched 2,850 with a 140 out of 708 and gain 200 with the 284 win.



Maybe not as much volume as the 708 and just maybe 284 win brass is an even better seller per handloader capita.





Hmmmm

I would like to know why and how Melvin came to his conclusion. Something he heard or by field experience or Winchester telling him.

Last batch of 500 284 win brass i bought this year has been pretty good.




You bet I read it, more than a few times.

From the site butch listed look at the difference between the 708 and 284 with a heavier bullet.

.284 Win 180gr Berger VLD 2830 11.31" | 4.10" 73.27" | 17.69" 269.88" | 54.26"
7mm-08 168gr Berger VLD 2670 13.32" | 4.67" 85.03" | 20.39" 317.97" | 64.04"

SU35,

How do you know you're getting 65,000 psi or less? Have you had your .284 ammo pressure-tested? These days it is pretty easy to load ammo to 70,000 or even more without seeing "pressure signs," because of improvements in both brass and rifles.

It's especially difficult to depend on traditional pressure signs in custom rifles, since they tend to both have smooth I have chambers and lapped, square locking lugs. I know this because, as an experiment, I've loaded ammo using all the traditional pressure signs, including miking case-heads, then had it tested at a piezo lab. In one instance .270 loads that gave NO sign of excessive pressure in my rifle (an FN Mauser, not even a custom rifle) averaged right around 69,000 psi.

So far only Alliant has any pressure-tested data with RL-17. Unfortunately the only bullet weight they list for the .284 is 110 grains, so far. The closest approxmation in their data is the .280 Remington, where with 140's RL-17 doesn't show any velocity advantage over RL-17.

It is pretty easy, in my experience, to get 2900+ with the 7mm-08 using published data, especially with the 139 Hornady.

Winchester did an extensive re-tooling of their ammo-making dies in the early 2000's. Before that .284 brass was getting so bad that Melvin was strongly advising customers to go to the 7mm-08 rather than the .284, unless they were willing to rigidly cull and rework brass. (This was before Lapua and Norma started making 6.5/.284 brass.)

Then, with the re-tooling (which they told some people about, including gunwriters) Winchester .284 brass got really good again. The brass is still OK (I got some last year myself) but not like it was immediately after the re-tooling.

Yeah, some handloaders buy a lot of .284 brass. But selling 500 cases here and there isn't the same as selling tens of thousands of rounds of both 7mm-08 brass and loaded ammo a year.

In the Nula at 5lbs 14 0z the 7mm-08 recoil-with 140gr-is just enough to not be excessive when shooting 40 to 50 rounds in a day. Not sure I would say the same with it approaching .280 numbers. The Nula is to nice a package to let sit on the shelf due to recoil.

But we're all different, so it may not apply to others.

If debating the cool factor in 7mm the only one would be the 7x57........

Yep.

MtnHtr

Probably a dumb question but why does a company release a new powder before they have published data on it?

Good question Bobby. Lots of the top long range and FClass shooters are using it with the heavy"115grain" 6mm bullets to and including the 180 grain 7mm bullets. I'll email Bryan Litz and ask about the pressure readings that they are getting.Bryan Litz is the current NRA National Individual Palma Champion. In 2008, he won three Long Range NRA regional tournaments (MI, PA, and TN), as well as the Midwest Palma championship. He was a member of the winning Team USA at the 2008 Spirit of America match. Bryan, an air-to-air missile design engineer for the US Air Force, also runs a consulting business,'Applied Ballistics, LLC', that provides ballistics testing, software development, and bullet design analysis. Bryan is now with Berger Bullets.
Most of them think the powder itself is worth 200fps and that is a lot if the pressure isn't dangerous.
Butch

Although the 7 WSM or 7 SAUM were not available 20 years ago that case design was where we all wanted to be when the 284 was entertained. I always wondered why the 350 Rem Mag case was so ignored. THough I like the WSM case since it has no belt, the 350 Rem Mag case had a lot to offer in wildcat terms. It could have done then, necked down to various calibers, what the WSM's & SAUM's do now.

Reloder28, you are right.
With all the new powders a lot of old cartridges and wildcats would be much better.
Butch

John, as a matter of conjecture, since some rifles (probably mostly custom or semi- so) seem to show an improvement as to chambers, etc; and brass too, have we found ourselves in a day where traditional SAAMI spec's may not reflect the thresholds of safety as before.

For example, in the 284 I mentioned above on a reworked 700 action, the only pressure sign seems to be the velocity; the usual flattened primers, extractor marks, hard to extract case, and case head expansion are all absent at a velocity that rivals factory 7mm mag ammo. And by the way I backed down to 3100 from a ways above. Then too, there seems something semi-mysterious about R17 in some cases as seems to be here.

However, I don't condone fire walling any cartridge and pose the question supposing that if we stay within 60k psi in some cases we may have a greater margin of safety than we might suppose.

Beauty, and coolness, is in the eye of the beholder, at least for me.

I once had a Browning bolt action in 284 (I liked the performance and short action and light weight). In a fit of madness, I sold it and now have no 7mm rifles (other than a 7mm Mauser Remington Rolling Block for nostalgia). I do want to build another 284 - it is a great cartridge, but then again, the 7mm-08 does all I need.

goodnews,

The basic problem is not the case, but the action. Modern rifle actions are very strong and most are very safe, but if subjected to pressures over 65,000 psi repeatedly even the best actions actions can fail due to metal fatigue. This is the basis of the pressure limitations pretty much universally imposed by the industry itself, both in the U.S. and Europe.

An example: a few years ago a guy who then worked for a powder company (and so should have known better) built a wildcat cartridge that, he claimed, got faster velocities than any other round of its size. I can't remember the mystical reasons for this, but they were pretty much the same as most such claims, whether a magic shoulder angle or a "fast" barrel.

Anyway, it was a varmint rifle and he used it for a couple of years, shooting a lot of prairie dogs--and targets, since the company had its own range at the facility. One day he was testing a new load and the rifle went blooey. I can't remember all the details, but essentially the front end of the action disintegrated. The scope (a big high-X varmint scope) was blown off and went flying past his ear, putting a dent in a metal building 20 feet behind him.

Until that moment there had been no traditional pressure signs, except for LOTS more velocity than you'd expect from a case of that size.

Chambering the rifle in 7x57 would be cool, but to go beyond cool have Mel stamp it "275 Rigby".

--Bob

No, I have not had it pressure tested but for the 6.5-284 I load under manufactures recommended load data.

Shown below is from Ramshot's web site.


Magnum 120 SIE HPBT 64.0 3,245 62,200 psi

Magnum 140 SIE SBT 62.0 3,070 64,000 psi


I'm loading 61 grains of Magnum behind a 130g
for 3,150 mv. I'm two grains less powder and 10 grains less bullet.

Surely, I would think that if a 284 case shooting a 6.5 140 grain bullet at 3,070 the
larger mouth 284 win can send a 140 at the same speed via maybe a grain more powder that would easily fit in the case at less than book psi limit.

As can be seen, it's obvious that I am within pressure limits of what load data tells me and where I want to be pressure wise.

As well, entering my load data into QL it's telling me that I'm at the low 60K range.




Yes, for the 280 06 based case.

RL17 has a proven track record of being a go to powder for top speeds in the short fat cartridges.

Alliant advertises it as such.

As it works for the short fats for higher than "normal" speeds there is strong reason for me to believe that the 284 case design falls into that same category as the short fats therefor it is able to deliver higher than "normal" speed.



And by using that same 139 g short shank bullet you can expect for certain that the 284 Win case will scoot it along just that much faster as well.

I'll stand by my claim that for certain you can expect 200 fps more out of a 284 case over the 7mm-08 case within book limits.

That in itself gives excellent reason to build one, not to mention that I believe the case is inherently accurate.

To put it into practical terms...

I can build a 20" barreled 284 win rifle and still be ahead of a 708 24" barreled rifle by
approximately 100 fps.

The 20" 284 would be lighter by a 1/2 lb and a faster MV mountain rifle.
Up there on the mountain things like this matter in my hunting book.




That's over 10 years ago, just about the time 1000 yd shooters were kicking 300 win mag butt and winning matches by necking down 284 Win brass to 6.5.

Just think what they would have done had they good brass!

Melvin's still telling people to dis the 284?
i thought it was his flagship.



One other thing, I hope the OP realizes that when he drives that Forbes rifle off the lot it will have a $1000.00 depreciation value.

As good as Melvin builds rifles he's just as good at salesmanship.

Nothing wrong with that.

I look at the x57 case as pissing up a rope.

Better rounds can be had in the long action via 280 Rem and better rounds can be had in the short action via 284 win. Technically speaking of course.

SU35,

Good point about the 6.5/.284 and Magnum. That would certainly indicate that the .284 itself should do about what you're getting.

I still would like to see Alliant list some RL-17 data using the SAME bullet side-by-side with their other powders. All their data with the short-fat magnums is shot with BTSP's, while their data with their other powders is shot with flat bases. The Speer Hot-Cor flat-bases produce average than higher pressures, while the BTSP's produce less than average. It would be nice to compare apples to apples.

However, I have quit believing in the magic of case shape affecting pressures, or how certain powders burn, having seen too much evidence to the contrary. Plus, a lot of people have claimed vastly increased velocities with RL-17 in standard cases, again without any pressure documentation.

There have been other powders introduced more-or-less specifically for the short-fat magnums. Ramshot Hunter is one, and it was designed to fit a large gap in their powders, between Big Game (about like 760 in burning rate) and Magnum (about like H1000, IMR7828 or RL-25). Alliant had a similar gap in their powders, between RL-15 (only a little slower than IMR4895) and RL-19 (close to H4831).

Both companies needed something a little better suited to the short-fat magnums, and produced it. That doesn't mean that it somehow burns better in the short-fats than longer cases.

Whether it truly is the magic powder many people believe remains to be seen with more pressure data. There have been some major advances in powders in recent years, but I have seen magic powders come and go over the years. Back in the 1970's a lot of people were loading cases to outlandish velocities with Norma 205, until some rifles were damaged. That powder eventually went off the market.

Until there is some more data, shot with the same bullets in the same pressure barrels, I'm going to remain a little skeptical, partly because that is my job.

By the way, Kenny Jarrett highly recommends the 7mm-08 AI, or at least he did a few years ago. He sent me a rifle with a 20" or 21" barrel, I can't remember which, and his handloads with 140 Ballistic Tips. They got over 3200 fps from the short barrel, with no sign of excessive pressure. Can't remember what powder he used (it's in my loading notes) but it wasn't anything new or magic.

It certainly was possible to turn the Winchester .284 brass of 10+ years ago into good stuff, but it took all the techniques of case uniforming to do it. That's why Melvin quit recommending it to his customers who weren't really avid handloaders, suggesting the 7mm-08 instead. And the last time I talked to him about all this, maybe a couple of years ago, he said we was seeing signs that Winchester .284 brass wasn't as good as it was right after they retooled--though it was still better than it had been a decade ago.

Actually, Melvin's rifles don't usually drop $1000 in value as soon as purchased. Quite a few people have sold them for only $500 less than they paid for them, if the rifle was in almost-new shape. But even $1000 off (1/3 off new for the Model 20 and 24) still makes them a better resale value than most synthetic-stocked custom rifles.

I knew when I brought up short fat case shape and
RL 17 it would bring up the question of "does case design and certain powders equal higher velocity?"

And of course you did bring it up which is indeed your job!
That's why I like your writing.

But since it fit in to my rifleology I decided to say AMEN!


Edited to add..................



That's a freaking hot load. No doubt about it.

The AI's are generally overloaded and over rated.

Mule Deer,

There was some strain gauge work done by Bob Jensen and German Salazar. It was posted on 6mmBR.com when RL-17 first came out.

Here is the article:

http://www.6mmbr.com/reloder17.html

-----------

I have gotten great results with RL-17 in two 7 rem mags, a 284 Win and a 6mm rem. No other powder comes close to the velocity that this powder does with these four rifles.

------

Side note on previous remark: 284 F class rifles that are driving 180 gr bullets just below 3000 fps with RL-17 are using 28" or longer barrels.

Azshooter do you have any recipes for 284 in 120 or 140gr TSX?

NOTHING WITH EITHER ONE. I ON THE OTHER HAND LIKE THE 6.5 284. GREAT SHOOTER, AND WASTE NO TIME GETTING THERE. BUT EVERYONE HAS THERE SPECIAL TOY

PM sent

Azshooter,

Thanks very much for the info!

I have read the article several times and still see no pressure readings for the RL17 and 180grn. bullets.
Butch

Below is info that I just received. As MD said, HIGH PRESSURE.

Cartridge : .284 Win.
Bullet : .284, 180, Berger M T VLD #28502
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch or 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-17

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 73 37.20 2220 1970 33820 7835 98.4 1.624
-18.0 75 38.13 2269 2057 35965 8008 99.0 1.583
-16.0 77 39.06 2317 2146 38239 8168 99.4 1.541
-14.0 79 39.99 2366 2237 40651 8315 99.7 1.497
-12.0 81 40.92 2413 2328 43208 8446 99.9 1.456
-10.0 82 41.85 2460 2420 45920 8563 100.0 1.416
-08.0 84 42.78 2507 2512 48802 8666 100.0 1.378
-06.0 86 43.71 2553 2606 51859 8766 100.0 1.341
-04.0 88 44.64 2599 2700 55107 8865 100.0 1.305 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 90 45.57 2644 2795 58561 8961 100.0 1.271 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 92 46.50 2689 2890 62235 9054 100.0 1.238 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 93 47.43 2733 2986 66148 9145 100.0 1.206 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 95 48.36 2778 3084 70314 9234 100.0 1.176 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 97 49.29 2822 3182 74757 9320 100.0 1.146 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 99 50.22 2865 3281 79499 9404 100.0 1.117 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Butch

Butch,

Very interesting.

Out of curiosity I went through Alliant's data, occasionally looking up other data when RL-17 was listed with higher velocities than any other powder:

.243 Win.--
85 BTSP R17 3316
(Nosler lists 3308 for AA3100 under 85/90 grain data.)

.25-06 Rem.--
120 BTSP R17 3046
" R25 3071

.260 Rem.--
140 SP R17 2645
" R19 2701
" R22 2731

.270 WSM--
130 BTSP R17 3258
130 SP R22 3220

150 BTSP R17 3041
150 SP R25 3050
" R22 3009

.280 Rem.--
145 BTSP R17 2968
145 SP R19 2973
160 BTSP R17 2829
160 SP R19 2813

7mm WSM--
160 BTSP R17 2964
160 SP R19 2956

.30-06--
180 BTSP R17 2762
180 SP R22 2762
200 SP R17 2552
" R22 2499
" 4000MR 2595

.300 SAUM--
180 SP R22 2896
180 BTSP R17 3008
(This looks like a big R17 advantage, but Nosler lists IMR4831 at 3017 with 180's.)

.300 WSM--
180 BTSP R17 3082
180 SP R19 2978
(Again, this looks like an R17 advantage, yet Nosler lists IMR4831, again, at 3082.)

.300 Win. Magnum--
180 BTSP R17 3074
180 SP R19, R22 and R25 all at 3050+

I'm still looking for even a consistent 50 fps advantage in R17, much less 100-200 fps.

In the 7wsm, I can easily beat the RL17 velocity with a 160gr and RL22..

Same in the 25-06 and 100's.


In my experience, what Alliant lists as a "max" load for RL17, is truely a max load. You go above it, and you have sticky bolt lifts and flat primers.

With their RL15, 19, and 22 loads, you have room to work up before you hit your max. And, when you work up to your max, you meet or pass RL17 velocities.

Just curious, but if you load at 65k psi, how high is the pressure of the outliers? I have always thought that you should load to an average pressure such that all loads within 2 standard deviations don't exceed the max allowable pressure.

doubletap,

Exactly. That's why the SAAMI standards for average pressure in any cartridge are under 65,000 psi.

Some cartridges tend to show more variation in the pressure of individual shots than others, the main reason the average pressure standards vary for different modern bolt-action rounds (though some are lower because the round is an old one).

The short-fat magnums tend to show less pressure variation than other rounds, the reason their average pressure standards are higher than for most others. But they are still usually under 65,000.

2900-3000fps in the 284 has been beat to death but I still enjoy reading the posts.

You bolt action guys may find the 284imp. aka the 284 Shehane interesting.

http://www.google.com/search?source...z=1T4GGLL_enUS358US358&q=284+shehane

My 284 Amish machine gun may be sneezed at by some of you but 154 Hornadys seated to the neck/shoulder juncture @ 3.040" using 30/06 magazines over IMR4350 is deadly.

120 B'Tips without changing the seater stem is a killer as well.

Didn't mean to interupt the OP but the extra 100fps just doesn't trip my trigger.Buy a short mag or a 7RM.

JMHO friends.

What kinda guns are those?
Butch

Top is a Rem. 7600

I think I have a magazine that might fit it. It says Colyer Clip. It says 308-6mm-300. If you can use it I will send it to you.
Butch

Butch you are most kind.Howevere, your description makes me think that it is for short action cartridge and the mag has small block.

I need the 25/06,270,280,30/06 mags to work with my overall length.

U DA MAN !!!!!!!!!!

Thanks anyway.

Not a problem, it has been in my drawer for years. Below is an email from German Salazar commenting on the pressure and loads that I posted above.
Butch,

I don't have any direct experience with the .284, however, the powder
charges look low for the pressure reported. However, I note that the
OAL is 2.800" which is very short, most target chambers are throated
for a longer OAL and that can change things quite a bit.

I would say that the loads are safe, but with a long throat, leave
room for more development.

German

Now that I think about it I believe most are seating about 3.050" or there abouts. They are also using 29-30" barrels instead of the 24" used. I'm still looking for more concrete info.
Butch

Well the 284 is a handloaders deal now. If you don't handload well you are going to have to. A 7mm-08 in an NULA Mod 20 would be just about perfect. I shoot a 7 x 57 myself along with a 7mm Remington Mag that I when back to a few years ago. You want more that what a 7mm-08 can give you then go with a 7mm Remington Mag. Ammo and cases are plentiful. You can go wrong. The other option would be have Mel Make you a 30-06 and call it a day. Welcome to our little corner of the World Wide Web.

Seriously considering building a nice 30/06 hunter.

I know, I know BORING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, but effective.

Best thing I've read on the Campfire in 2010... Gold Medal Candidate!

Thanks for the chuckle...

I've known Battue for a while now and was chatting with him as his NULA was being built and he had an interesting comment. He stated that if he should ever want to sell the NULA a 7-08 may be easier to sell!

Butch,

In the NULA Model 20 (the origin of this thread) the magazine length is 3.00 inches. Usually in a NULA the .284 is also matched with a 22" barrel.

My 1909 Argentine in 284 has a 23" barrel and it is a very accurate rifle. I have never chrono'ed the loads. I've only shot it at the range one time and shot some handloads that an old friend loaded for his. It was loaded with 4350 and seems like the box said 2650fps. If it shoots that well next time, I wouldn't change the load. Fast enough for me.
Butch

MD

If your able to seat the bullet a long ways out via a generous throat length could u hazard a guess what drop in pressure will be?

Rich,

I've found out it wouldn't be all that difficult to get rid of a 7mm-08 Nula and lose little. Maybe none the closer one gets to hunting season. However, it would be a foolish thing to do so....

Huntsman,

I wouldn't even want to guess--though I will note that seating bullets out to an overall cartridge length equivalent to the .30-06, say 3.35 inches, would result in an extra 15% or so in powder room. This would be result in an extra 100 fps or so in velocity at the same pressures.

I would also result in a cartridge functionally equivalent to the .280 Remington.

I really like the .284 round in a Savage M-99, that is what it is intended for IMO. short lever and auto actions..I see no advantage to that caliber in a bolt gun and the rebated rim can sometimes be a pain for a gunsmith.

I also have not been a fan of the 7-08 for whatever reason, mostly because I prefer the 7x57 case and the ability to seat bullets out and have more powder capacity..I can beat the socks off the 7-08 with my long magazined and long throated 7x57 and I could not make that work with the 7-08. But the 7-08 can be used in a very short action and make a very compact gun, and I suppose that is its main appeal if a 1/4 of and inch in action size makes a difference to someone.

I understand that it's argueable, and only express my personal opinnion as to why I prefer the 7x57 in bolt guns to the 7-08 or .284..As to accuracy that is mostly in the barrel IMO. I am not particularly impressed with the word "inherent accuracy" in cartridges, at least from a hunting gun point of view. It seems to have some degree of credability in bench rest.

Ray,
I sure won't get involved in an inherent accurate discussion. For long range and long range FClass, the 284 is very hard to beat. You won't see much in the way of 7-08 or 7x57 as a long range accuracy round. Below is an additional email from one of the sucessful FClass shooters.


Butch,

According to Quickloads, running 55.4grs of 4831sc under a 180VLD seated for an OAL of 3.200, the pressure is 61,451psi, and velocity is 2854fps...This is what alot of guys running the straight 284 are doing. I'm running my 284 with 54.8 grs, velocity of 2820fps over the crony...I've heard alot of guys talking about running as much as 56grs in a straight 284...oh....pressure would be in the 68,000psi range....

RL17 data on quickloads...bear in mind this is using 70F as the temp....52.5 grs, 180vld seat to an OAL of 3.20, velocity of 2951fps, pressure of 71,492psi...

Figures are for a 30" barrel...

Hope all is well...
Jim


Butch

If powder capacity is obviously important to you Ray why do you hamstring yourself with a cartridge of lesser capacity than the 280 Rem, after all you're in a long action.



Gosh Ray, the 284 is a better cartridge in a short action bolt rifle than a 7x57 in a long action. Not to mention in long action as well.
Any smith that can't handle a rebated rim is not worth is salt.


I can understand that you and others like the classic old cartridge but that's all it is, classic.

Reason I asked was that I have two older Tikka's that both have quite long throats.
I load both out to close to the leade and they still function fine thru the clips.
In both of them to get up to published max velocities I have to go at least 3 more grains of powder with zero pressure signs.

I really like my 284 in a Savage 99 as well. With 150 Partitions it will do about anything I want out to 300 yards and print 4" groups or better. I match 7-08 ballistics at lower pressures in deference to the rear lock up. Nothing wrong with that! Cool factor is there. Flat in the scabbard. What's not to like.

I also have two 6.5 Rem Mags and a 350 Rem Mag in 60's original carbines. The 1960 era short magnums...So far ahead of their time that they were criticized to oblivion. Some people still don't get em.

Many gun writers of the 60's never did get either the .284 or the 6.5 and .350 Remingtons. They kept insisting all would be much better rounds if made on longer actions, where the bullets could be seated "out where they should be."

The .284 and 6.5 were both designed to provide .270 Winchester ballistics in a short action. They did this, so there was no reason for them to be built on a long action. Same deal with the .350 Remington, a short-action .35 Whelen.

Anyone who has a Model 70 Short action 284 win would tell you that you have plenty of room (3.100") to take full advantage of the cartridge's capabilities. I agreee with SU35 on the 200fps, and Hodgdon agrees also (well almost). With 139 gr bullets, 2906 fps is the fastest 7-08 velocity listed on their site (H4350). The 284 win lists 3079 fps for the same bullet, and like SU35, I easily reach 3100-3120 fps with RL-17, using 140 gr TTSX and a longer COL. The Hodgdon numbers for the 284 win use COLs as long as 2.970" in their loads, and they are all within SAAMI limits for pressure. You should obviously not use these same loads unless you are able to seat your bullets to the listed lengths. I have two 7-08, Rem-700s and one 284 win Model 70. In a bolt action rifle, there is a definite step up IMO with a 284 win. But with today's bullets and powders, both are great guns and adequate for any hunting I will probably ever do. I prefer the 284 win slightly.

Welcome Bobby....sounds like you like the 7`s. So do I. Lots of good info here for you to digest, and lots of the talk boils down to what one will do that the other will not. Years ago I built a 7x57AI on a Mauser action, and my brother built a 284. When it came to killing deer sized game, we couldn`t see any difference in performance between the two. Just a matter of choice. I always wanted more snort from the 7`s tho, Maybe you will too? so I finally went to a 7 Wby. If I were to do it all over again, I would start with the 7 Mags. Your gonna handload for whatever you do, the big 7`s give you more options, for whatever you want to do, IMHO.

Another FClass shooter with RL17 and the new Berger Hybrid 180 bullets. I do think they are finding RL17 quite a bit faster, but not as accurate.



I also have 500 of the 180 Hybrids will be testing them this weekend in my 284 shehane. with RL - 17 . Will keep you up to date .
My report, lets start with 30" 1-9 Bartlein 1.250 7mm .277x .284 4 groove stolle panda f- class action
robertson stock , all bullets @ 20 thou in lands all primers large rifle KVB -7
cloudy 88 degrees 75% humid. hot and sticky. ( dallas )
54.7 2996,2988,2991 = 8 es .216 group ( all 3 shot groups)
55.0 3012,3014,2998 =16 es in the .400
55.3 3021,3015,3025 =10 es in the .400
55.6 3046,3047,3055 =9 es in the .400
55.9 3058,3051,3056 =7 es .202 ( best group) about max for 90 degrees
56.2 3073,3082,3058 = 24 es in the .400 last one looks funny action hard, primers bad
56.5 3094,3083,3100 =17 es in the .400 ( action hard to pull up primer bad )
Will start the bullet seating adjusting now with my 2 nods loads 54.7 , 55.9 and 5 shot groups
model 35p oehler 3 screen 10' from barrel

Excellent Butch,

I like this load.

55.9 3058,3051,3056 =7 es .202 ( best group) about max for 90 degrees

Figure 200 fps off for a 24" barrel

Look forward to your reports.

Still scrapping for dough but I did order some 284 brass.Thanks for all the input. Bobby