Or do we have an unreasonable expectation of accuracy?

In some cases, a little bit of both.

I am with Jim on this. I mean the guy's on T.V. shoot like this ...don't they?

I'm not a gunwriter, but I think many folks are just unwilling to actually practice. JMO. Naturally, like any activity, there will people who are better at a given task than the average Joe. But, even if you really suck at something, you'll at least suck a little less, if you just practice a bit.

jeff

no

folks just need to shoot more...

then they will be surprised how much better their rifle and ammunition is.

Take the dedicated real-world snipers that often post on Sniper's Hide, or Frank (AKA Low Light), a former Marine Scout Sniper and head honcho at Rifles Only Training Center. Frank and crew fire on the order of 5K to 10K rounds per month! To become profecient you just have to practice, practice...and practice some more. I'm guilty of not practicing enough.

I went on an Elk hunt where the guide asked everyone to shoot at a paper plate @ 200yds from a rest. His logic was I don't want anybody to start doubting themselves because they didn't shoot under an ". He said if you hit the paper plate the elk is going down. Sight in took 15 min. for 4 hunters. # of us shot and all three got elk. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies.
Buckfever1

Oh, I could tell you many tales. One of the long-time editors of a major gun magazines was such a poor rifle shot that he wouldn't shoot in front of other people--and he had LOTS of practice.

Decent eye-hand coodination helps a lot. My wife Eileen became an excellent rifle shot within a relatively short time when she started shooting after we were married. But she also knows how to use a rest in the field, and doesn't take chances. A lot of women are like that. A lot of men aren't.

Speaking of shooting in the field in watching the television shows, it seems that everyone uses those shooting sticks. There is nothing wrong with that but I watched one the other day where there were trees all around and the guy used the stick instead. What about learning to shoot from a sitting position or resting on the tree?

Is the use of shooting sticks exclusively when there seem to be better options just placement of sponsor's products or is it indicatve of the fact that lots of guys nowadays really didn't grow up shooting BB guns an .22s at birds and squirrels from all kinds improvised rests in the field?

Love to buy you a beverage of your choice one day just to listen to more of this.

Not everyone has the room, neighbors, or local farms we did growing up. If you were to take out even a BB gun to practice by your house in some locations, the S.W.A.T. team would be calling on you in short order. Very sad but true.

People who believe that they can't shoot, just can't shoot. Beyond that some take instruction and apply it better than others, and desire to improve has a lot to do with it.

Had a German exchange student who had never handled a shotgun before at trap. He was open to the new experience and had no preconceived ideas. Michael listened to what he was told and did his best to apply it and shot surprisingly well.

On the other hand we have some that are ok with mediocre performance, having fun shooting, and don't apply what you tell them. They never go much past mediocre. Which is ok as we shoot for fun more than competition.

Most the yokels in the NVA couldn't shoot fer chitt(ok).

Some folks can shoot and others cannot, some talk a good show and can't shoot, some talk a good show and can really shoot well, you just never know..

I think the younger generations shoot less well than the older generations going back many generations..Why? because they use a firearm less and don't have the same opertunities, nor a place to shoot or at least its a long drive to the range, and for a bunch of other reasons such as they shoot from the bench and never work on their off hand shooting..

The guys on TV, have never impressed me much with a few exceptions..They pass up shot after shot, let perfectly shootable deer walk off waiting for the perfect broadside shot from an enclosed tree stand (why do they wear camo in those stands?) then shoot them at close range with a single shot pistol looking rifle, then they whisper to us..Don't they know dead deer can't hear..My point is less folks can shoot because they are game killers with the best equipment at very close ranges and not hunters..

We get both good and bad shots in our camps. We get good shots that cannot shoot well on a particular hunt, and that happens to everyone for some reason at some point if they hunt a lot. The reason is guns that are off and the other reasons are known only to the Red Gods..I know terrible shots that do well on Safari, Then you have golf, and Team Roping and that my friends has no definitive answer.

If more people practiced shooting off hand with both iron sights and scope sights they would all be much better shots..If you can shoot well off hand then you can shoot under any and all conditions. If they practiced trigger pull they would become better shots, I recommend a controlled jerk as opposed to those long drawn out squeezes that allow those targets of opertunity to walk off into the bush. Remember shooting ain't all that hard to do with just a little bit of practice now and then, but make it the right kind of practice.

It comes down to experience and common sense....although, some simply will never get it no matter what.
Others never get past the gear and having the latest.

But basically, no one improves until they have enough confidence in themselves and their kit to hold off a foot and a half into the wind when required.....those that cannot trust the equipment and skills that they have are moribund and cannot move on.

Some folks are better shots on the internet than at the range or in the field. Read a post on another forum where the poster claimed to regularly shoot sub 1" at 100yds. with an iron sighted lever action. Who knows, maybe I'm just too skeptical.

Probably right....but do it for a quid and all the rules change.
You either improve, or go broke.

Many folks just don't shoot enough to know that they're really lousy shots.

A lot of folks don't know what good shooting looks like. They come to the range, once a year, to sight in the Thuhty-Thuhty, or the Awght-six, and figure three shots from the bench into a paper plate is "sighted in". The regulars and competitors avoid the range during the annual deer season sight-in and hog-screw like it was a fat chick nekkid beach, so they never see the clover leaf groups, or get to observe people shooting from field positions. They just look at each other, grin and admire the collection of SKS's (in the Choate Sniper stock) AK's, a few bolt actions and a few lever guns.

That is a very funny picture!

I would throw in that most don't shoot enough to know their length of pull and stock fit.

Thus, they never really get started.

BMT

Hey, I've got one of those! (bayonet off and convertible back to original).



It's a lot of fun plinking with cheap ammo though I wouldn't choose it for hunting.

Shhhhhh...we'll just keep it between us.

You can....I have already told everyone I know!

I think there are two things that people either can, or cannot do regardless of the effort put forth. Shooting, and learning a second language. It's certainly rare, but I think there are some people that simply cannot grasp the concept.


Travis

I believe it is possible

When shooting at game, itty bit groups are worthless. And when shooting at game, perfect is the enemy of good enough. Being able to hit a pie plate at 200 yards quickly and 80 percent of the time is better than being able to hit that pie plate 100 percent of the time if you take too long to do it.

Some people just can't follow directions......

I think there is a lot of this today,particularly when it comes to hunting....way more so than years past.I NEVER see,anymore,guys practice from a sitting position(many don't know what it is),using a sling for anything other than to transport a rifle on their shoulder,shooting off-hand,etc.

The trend is the use of gadgets designed to completely remove the human skill element with a rifle from the equation.....LRF's,bipods,Bog Bod portable benches for the field,several crosshairs to choose from,power range changes(3X can't work at 200 yards)etc....with all this stuff to worry about,conducting the Boston Symphony Orchestra is easier than shooting a deer at 200 yards.....

Don't get me wrong.......there is nothing wrong with using a rest to pull off a shot in the field at a game animal...problem is that for many,the ONLY way they ever shoot is off a bipod or a rest.This style of shooting is so easy that it develops few skill sets at all....They never practice less steady field positions like off hand,dropping to a sit,etc.Take the rest away and many I have seen are completely helpless,even on moderate range shots that should be a snap from an improvised field position.....assuming you know what to do to find one in the first place.

I think part of the problem is the infatuation with tiny groups,and the notion that all big game is going to be killed at very long range.....the amount of discussion and emphasis these topics get on the Internet and in magazines leads many to believe they are doomed to failure if their factory 30/06 does not dump 5 shots into a quarter inch, or they can't stick a bullet into a deer at 700-800 yards......so they gravitate to high power scopes(even when not required),and never leave a bench while searching for the magic load....and then they call this stuff...."practice".

All this is nice but of very little value when the seconds are clicking off and that darned elk at 175 yards is moving from the open to heavy cover....and will be gone forever in about 3 seconds....I don't see many practicing for this type shot.....hell, the groups might be too big!

I can't really consider anyone to be an accomplished field shot on BG unless they have some skill level on moving game.

Plus, the clutter!....Good grief!Bipods to snag on everything,shooting sticks, range finders, variable scopes, wind meters,tiny computers to dial in come-ups and wind drift....again don't get me wrong...the science involved with all of this is intensely interesting.....but all this stuff slows a guy down some times...... at some point,the "art" of rifle shooting should come into play,and that is only obtained through making practice difficult to at least some degree.

Most I see today do not do not EVER do it...

Bob, now you are getting carried away. None of those gadgets can nor do they removed the human element of skill from the equation. Multiple aiming points should pose no problems for the truly skilled to implement perfectly in the field

you must be properly accessorized with the correct clothing complete with pockets and proper loops to organize and transport the necessary electronic hunting and spotting equipment.

jwp: You're missing my point.....

Well its a given, at this time and place most do not shoot no were near enough, time money a place to shoot all come into play. 200 yards is about as long a rifle range you are going to find here in CT or Most of New England , and a Public range is fast becoming non existent. Most of my shots on White tails have been well under a 100 yards here, so the current ranges here are plenty. It dose me no good out west, since there is the idea that you shoot farther or so its what is being said and written that you do. I some times wonder about that, my longest shot ever on a big game animal occurred in Montana with a 270 on a Mule deer near Jordan, It was maybe 300 long steps of mine and I am just 5'6" short legged guy. so it might have been a tad over 200 yards maybe or maybe not. From my journals most of my shots at game been less than that by a good margin. One of the things driving this stuff is laser range finders, they have become very light and very affordable. And All kinds of things you can do with Scope sights these days. It the end its still going to be a lot of trigger time at the range and then some. I like a lighter easier to carry rifle than what some in that game would want like 10+ lbs. The 338 is about all the recoil I would want these days and more and more I question the need since I when back to the 7mm RM in a 7 1/2 lb rifle. And even then, its need is well questionable in the New England Deer woods, where my 7 x 57 and 6.5 x 55 do the job and do it very well with out much recoil. Some times common sense is lacking both in the field and on the internet. One of the best warm ups for Deer hunting I can think of is grey squirrel hunting with a 22 and head shots only. The limit is 40 here is CT and if you can do that with just a box of 50 22's and have a few left over, you are not going to have any sort of problem collecting your deer, with any reasonable rifle that groups 4 inches or better, Ie Model 94's in 30-30. The old timers knew this, since they spent a lot more time shooting small game like rabbits and squirrels for the pot, and for most it was because of need.

Not everyone has the same level of natural ability, and not everyone has the same level of training and experience. Even amongst those who shoot well on paper, some fall apart when faced with the differing pressures of the hunt or of combat. Someone will always outshoot someone else.

Marksmanship is a fleeting skill that requires much disciplined training and trigger time to obtain, and it also requires a continued level of disciplined training and trigger time to maintain. Even if you make it to the top of your game, at some point you will be surpassed by others. There is much more to the overall package of marksmanship than merely the benchrest accuracy of the rifle and ammunition.

When I was shooting National rifle competition, we'd run spring clinics that were used by many to qualify for Garand purchases through the program. When coaching at these clinics, it was easy to spot amongst the varying skill levels those who were former Marines. To be a Marine is to be a rifleman and all the former Marines that ran through these clinics demonstrated a high level of training and experience shooting from field positions. There were other individual stand outs, but none the equal as a group. This gave me the realization that the vast majority of those running through the clinics, without having a disciplined marksmanship background, spent the majority of their years practicing from a bench. Most of these guys were avid hunters yet they spent very little trigger time away from a bench.

I learned a lot during that experience and came away with several benchmarks that I apply to myself. The basics being:

- Always try to keep practice fresh and realistic to the type of hunting pursued. The more realistic your trigger time in practice, the better your performance on game when in the field.

- Spend more time on developing personal skill levels at shooting from field positions than spending on developing bench accuracy of the rifle and ammunition alone. Learning to quickly establish stable field positions in practice will better your performance on game when in the field.

- Push yourself in practice to learn what you cannot do, so you can learn what you can do. Knowing your abilities as well as your limitations through trigger time in practice will better your performance on game when in the field.

Hope someone can take something away from this. Good thread by the way.

Best:)

I think at some point one becomes a good enough shot that he doesn't have to practice much, to be proficient enough to hunt. I think if one gets to a point where he can shoot a 6 inch group off hand at 100 yards and shoot quickly then he is deadly in the hunting field.

Also, I have seen several lever action guns that would shoot a one inch 3 shot group at 100 yards off bench with iron sights, so I dont' find that too amazing. I have a 30-30 trapper of my grandads that will do it almost everytime and I know that a certain gun writter has one of the new trapper 30-30 that will shot an inch with 3 shots and irons.I have seen a few at turkey shoots that would do it pretty consistantly. I have seen a couple of Savage 99s that would shoot and inch with irons and I know of several double rifles that will do the same. I agree it isn't the norm with any production rifle, but their are a number of them that will.

I notice folks that can't shoot, seem to underrate good shooters and don't seem to realize what good shooting is, and judge others by their capabilities..

There is another board I frequent that has a outdoors section. One of the guys there constantly touts magnum rifles and hugmongous scopes for shots on deer at long range. What is long range? He says 300 yards.

He refuses to believe that at those ranges, his rifle has no practical advantage over standard calibers and he basically called me a liar when I said I could hit 12 or 15 inch square paper targets all day, and sometimes get some really decent groups, from iron sighted surplus Mausers at 300 yards from a seated position.

And I don't think I'm that good of a shot, at least not anymore. But shooting at normal hunting ranges is a lot easier than some people make it out to be. Just a little practice will get you where you need to be.

I will take slower and 100% over that 80%. Non-mortal wounding 20% of the animals you shoot at is not a good average.

And you'll never get to shoot at lots of deer because you are too slow. And missing a pie plate 2 out of 10 times from 200 yards does not equate to merely wounding a deer. But of course, fixate on whatever you want and skew whatever you want to "prove" your point.

No point, just a statement, but then again I do not take THS on animals either

That's easy: The guy was selling shooting sticks.

I think some guys here tend to think this or that gadget is "a current trend" just because they see it on the hunting shows. IME, at least in my area and the folks I hang with, guys don't buy all that stuff. A good call and a few deeks and you're a goose hunter. A Savage 110 with a Tasco on top and you're a deer hunter. It's that simple in my neighborhood. Having said that, my wife and I both got each other Primos trigger sticks for Christmas last year, and neither was privy to the other's plan. How's that for irony?

Doe that mean I am not a very good shot?

We know better than that.....

A .22lr naturally encourages one to shoot off hand and from field positions. You just naturally want to roll cans, hit rocks on the backstop hill, paper cups, etc. Since it is just a .22lr most are willing to play and get off the bench. Not glamorous, but it works and brings out the kid in us. Many today have forgotten how to play. Most of the time when I go to the range and others are at the benches, you almost think you are at church. Most don't converse and are envolved in their own little world. I'm sure they think I'm odd fooling around with a .22lr and enjoying the fun of bouncing pop cans.

THS works quite well when done correctly and I never have been able to understand the aversion. Your killing with the up front hit often combined with a 50yard run, is no better or humane than the drt from a ths. You can fool yourself into thinking you are a hunter of higher principles, but it is nothing but smoke and mirrors to make yourself feel good.

This whole thread is a bunch of hocky.

The onlylest ones that can't hit are Mike Fletcher and me. Restes of you guys are all top nitch shooters.

D

THS is a personal ethical choice, I will not look down on you for taking them, so long as yoou are 100% sure that you are going to kill what your shooting.

Not only possible but fact.

When you go to the range and cast your spotting scope along the peripheral targets, you will know. When you talk with African PH's you will verify.

There are reasons for this but that is a separate topic.

JW

I saw one of those guys with the tricked out SKS a few months ago. He set up with his barrel mounted bipod, black synthetic tactical stock and extended mag. He went downrange and spread out about 10 clay birds on the berm. The range went hot and I started hearing, pow, pow, pow........ Out of the corner of my eye I saw him reload a couple of times, but wasn't seeing any birds break. When the range went cold and I removed the ear plugs, I heard him say, "75 #)($*& rounds to get 1 hit!" I was careful not to look in his direction for a while.

Stryker60

A very good friend of mine has such an SKS. A regular SKS, removed from the wood stock and placed in a Fiberforce sniper stock. Attached to the barrel is an accuracy-destroying, (what little intrinsic accuracy is present) barrel-mounted bipod. For an optic he has a little a NcStar scope (you can see better without the scope) mounted in rings that were integral to the dust cover, thus assuring a different zero every single shot due to the dust cover shifting every single shot and a 30-round magazine. Oh, and a cheap laser, and I mean cheap, clamped under the barrel. He�s proud of this little creation that he put together over a period of months as he perused the Cheaper Than Dirt catalog. I break out my 30-378 Improved with my Hensoldt 6-24x72 scope and set up beside him on his back deck. I know he expected my rig to be much more accurate than his; what he didn�t expect was how abysmally his amalgamation of cheap Chinese gun parts performed. He has a dirt berm that�s almost exactly 150 yards from his back deck. We too decided to use clay birds as targets. Well, that truly is a chip shot for me (or anyone else for that matter). I�m shooting Berger 210 grain molly-coated boat tails at 3450 fps. Every time I pulled the trigger, I dusted a bird. He never did hit one with his SKS. I let him shoot my rig, and he started connecting every time as well. He was pumped after shooting an accurate rifle�but he promptly deflated when he went over and quickly put his SKS back in the house.

magnumdood,

I see similar all the time. I have a lot of visitors at my range. Most have never shot long range nor shot a real accurate rifle. The all leave amazed. I usually let them pop off a 5 shot group with my 6br on my 800 yard target. Most are amazed at 8 to 10 inch groups that they usually see when we get to the target. On occassion one of the newbies will shoot a really good group. Then again there have been a few with a couple of shots not even on the target.

JB, you done well

Eddy,

Some people are so far behind the learning curve that they need to start over, from the beginning, because all they're doing in reinforcing bad habits. I watch people just as they pull the trigger to gauge the level of marksmanship. It's amazing that some of them ever even get on paper with a rifle that has been zeroed at 100 yards already! Fully 50% of the flinchers close both eyes as they yank the trigger, then wonder why they can't knock out the X-ring like their friend just did with the same rifle. It's comical. I've gotten old enough, and have enough gray in my mustache and hair, that the flinchers don't feel too proud to accept a few "pointers" from the "old man". But, I don't offer. Usually, they see my gear, and assume I can get their firearm on paper. Usually the firearm is on paper, it's the owner who's waaayyy off target.

Most men: Whaddya mean, can I shoot? I'm a man!

Most women: Please show me how to do this correctly, so that I may do it well.

Maybe I am in an area with better shooters but most are not that bad when they are reassured the rifle does not kick and you put sme heaaring protection on them.

Best not let the John Burns LR critics know that most newbies are holding moa or close to it at 800yards. Benched I know and conditions I'm sure are excellent. Still impressive for ones who have never shot LR or an accurate rifle.

Bench technique ain't a gimmee.

I agree. Good shooting now matter how you look at it.

Most of the guys that show up around here are friends of friends and usually pretty serious hunters, but with zero experiance shooting long range.

Many times, with some coaching and with a gun that is already set-up, groups get smaller, even at longer distances.

I have watched grown men shut their eyes, turn their heads while they YANKED the trigger, and then be in shock, why the shot went a stray.
Good hearing protection and a willingness to learn (implied there is someone patient enough to teach them), with a rig that is set-up right, and will not hurt them is key.

With those things in place, I have watched a number of men do really well at short and longer distances.

One of my buddies shot his first 3 shots at 600 yards and managed like a .780 inch group.

But he is probably one of the best rifle shots of all time and has the HOF points and world records to prove it. 65BR...I am talking about your gunsmith.

Becoming a good shot requires lots of practice, practice with the .22, dry fire with snap caps. Practice with your hunting rifle and reduced loads, practice shooting from field positions in different light conditions. As hunting season approaches practice with your hunting load on game silhouete targets, shooting at the kill zone. Too many hunters that are bad shots fill the sights with brown and pull the trigger. Being a good shot in the field on game requires attaining the discipline to aim for a killing shot and passsing up shots that do not present that opportunity. Just my .02 cents worth on how I developed the ability to shoot accurately and shoot well in the field and harvest the game I am hunting.

Good eye sight is important. Scopes can make it easier to see better. Since I've become older, shooting accurately with irons has become very difficult. Bigger iron sights with different color combinations help, but on rifles, scopes have been the only way.

Considering going to red dots on my pistols, and eventually having eye surgery and hopefully, then, red dots will not be necessary. Used to be happy with irons on my rifles and pistols, being able to use them at farther distances than many. Eye glasses have helped some, but not enough.

matt

Corrective eye surgery i.e.lasik type corrections, when one is older usually results in increased loss of close vision. All I have known that were older and had lasik corrections lost even more of their ability to focus close. Thus the use of irons becomes even more difficult. You possibly could try one eye corrected for close and one for far, but it has its disadvantages. Getting old and having the eye accommodation to use irons well in all conditions is about as rare as 150 class bucks.

Ask before you let them cut.

I've got a friend who can't hit the broad side of a barn, from the inside!

My near and far vision improved, and I had mine done when I was 47. Not to say my near vision is 20/20, because it isn't; but, I can read the label on the shampoo bottle for the first time in my life, and not just the name label, but the directions too. My distance vision improved to 20/15.

yes it is

Short answer: Yes. There are plenty of people out there who can't shoot well and never will.