For those with vast more experience and usage, my question revolves around the "seen" differences between Nosler's and Swift's similiar styled bullets; i.e. the Partition and the A-Frame along with the Accubond and the Scirocco.

IME, the Noslers have been more accurate (both flavors) and seem a little "harder" in the front than the Swifts but I've never had a "failure" with any of the four. I've only used both in 3 guns though so take that for what it's worth.

on the left are two 300gr .454 A-frames recovered on the far side of a bison

Like UtahLefty I have found Noslers somewhat easier to get to shoot, though the difference between Partitions and A-Frames isn't enough to worry about.

In my experience, the difference between AccuBonds and Scirrocos is greater. Have even had Sciroccos refuse to shoot in a few rifles, and that's prety rare with AB's.

On game, I have found Partitions and A-Frames to penetrate about the same. Even though A-Frames retain more weight, they open up wider than Partitions of the same diameter, and frontal area is more of a factor in penetration than weight retention.

Contrary to what many believe, the rear core of A-Frames is not bonded, the reason the rear half of the bullet often bulges, especially at higher impact velocities or when hitting bone.

In fact, the rear end of an A-Frame isn't as tough as the rear end of a Partition, both because the jacket is copper (softer than the gilding metal used in Partitions) and not any thicker. The partition in A-Frames also isn't solid. Instead it has a plug in the center to close it up. Generally the bonded front end prevents any problems with the rear end of the bullet, but I still think the A-Frame would be and even better bullet if both cores were bonded.

Sometimes the rear end of a Partition will bulge too, but they almost never break. Or at least I haven't seen it in many, many Partitions used on game in calibers from .224 to .416.

From what I have seen the AccuBond and Scirocco II act pretty similar on game, though once again the AB typical loses more weight. It is designed to act much like the Partition, and does.

Can you expand on that please, you've tweaked my curiosity with line...

At one time I was a real Swift fan, and viewed them as an improved Nosler Partition, but after considerable use on game in Africa I found the Swifts expanded into these perfect text book mushrooms, the base swelled and the front melted over the swell in this beautiful "smooth" ball..I have seen game travel a long way with proper hits and in some cases fail to leave a very good blood trail..The Nosler differs in that it has somewhat ragged edges that cut and tear, sometimes the Nosler blows the front end off and leaves a expanded bullet that looks very much like a expanded Barnes X bullet, sometimes it retains the lead and looks more like an expanded Woodleigh, but in either case it works 99.9999% of the time on game.

the old screw machine Nosler partition that some tout so highly was not as good a bullet as todays Noslers..It always blew the front end off and the small base penetrated..In its day is was the best and it did kill good, but todays Nosler rarely does that and it leaves a nice mushroom, but blowing the front end off is not a crime in itself as its a very destructive killer..The best of European bullets are designed to do exactly that.

I might add the Swifts seem to always work well on heavy animals like Cape Buffalo, Eland, Zebra, and Blue Wildebeest, in my experience, and I can say the same about the Barnes X bullets. It is on smaller stuff that I have found them lacking, others have not.

The Accubond and Scirroco are bonded core bullets and they all act about the same, they work as far as I know..I have used the Accubond a bit on deer and have no complaints. I have not used the Scirroco but I'm sure its a good bullet.

I believe that Woodleighs are the best bonded core bullets, they leave a ragged propeller looking expanded bullet with flared jagged edges coated with lead that do a tremoundous amount of dammage, yet they penetrate very well indeed and they have been proving themselves for decades!

I have had great success with North Fork bullets on everything that I have shot with them, recovered bullets are ALWAYS an exact clone of the last recoverd North Fork I dug out of something..I rate the very high in my personal bullet book and right there with the best.

I believe the GS Customs monolithic bullets are the best of the monolithic line, and I have had wonderful luck with them. The are now a US based company or at least in that process as the daughter and her new hubby have moved to the US.

The Nosler partition another of the best all around bullets in the world in calibers over .270. I'm not fond of partitions in smaller calibers as the total diameter of the expanded bullet is small and in smaller calibers it's too small, therefore for the 6mm, 25 caliber and other smaller calibers I opt for the bonded core bullets or even cup and core bullets in some cases..

The above is my personal conclusion based on my personal experiences, with no claim that it's the last word in bullet selection. Most all of todays bullets work as advertised and that sez Kudos for the bullet makers.

I remember the days when bullet failure was commonplace and more likly than not, but 95% of the time they killed the animal, the ones that came apart usually killed like the hammer of Thor (sorry JB)
and the ones that didn't expand? well they really didn't go all that far if the shot was well placed, if not well placed then you better be a good tracker in either case. It still boils down to shot placement as the key to success.

Dawn2Dusk,

The Nosler AccuBond is only bonded for the rear 2/3 or so of the bullet, leaving the front end of the core free from the jacket. This is deliberately done so that the AccuBond will approximate the same on-game performance of the Nosler Partition, which typically loses most or all of the weight in front the partition.

This is done to provide some of the "explosive" effect of the soft front core provided by the Nosler Partition.

That's pretty innovative thinking on behalf of the Nosler crew. Great to know also...

Great posts, I guess between the NP and A Frame boils down to what shoots better in your rifle and I must say I'm also partial to A Frames. As to the AB and Scirocco, I've known enough guys with bad experiences to stay away from them. Below are three 300gr Swifts recovered from Zebra, Eland and Wildebeest. THe last one is a 180gr Hornady out of a 300 Weatherby recovered from an impala. The fact it was "recovered" from a tiny impala is testament to the theory of matching velocity to projectile. jorge

Sort of a slight side track and not to get completely off subject but;

I've seen this said a good bit but rarely do I ever see anyone comment on their typical accuracy potential from a vast array of rifles? Any comments towards that thought?

Is this only on African game or NA game as well? Care to expand?

P.S. Happy Birthday by the way.

I've only used Woodleighs in the .416 and .470 but in that sampling accuracy has been superb. I've never recovered one so don't have any pics.

Woodleighs are ok but you MUST keep them within their velocity window (i.e below 2700 fps). As to the AB/Scirocco comments, two good friends of mine, once since passed away and used to post here and another one, John55 both had huge issues with ABs. Do a search here there's plenty of data. jorge

I'll search and will try to learn... Yet, I've seen good things from AB's in the deer hunting world. Guess that just goes to show that it doesn't take a Abrams tank to kill deer.

My good friend just returned from africa and loves the 260AB in his 375. He's used it the world over with great success. I've just had great luck with TSXs and TTSXs so I have no reason to look elsewhere. I do use the Swift in my 416 though because I bought a "lifetime supply" years ago

The jacket metal composition also intrigues me...

With the swift making use of said copper (guessing almost pure) jacket does this in turn mean the bullet will open up any faster or at slower impact velocities?

With the nosler using gilding metal jackets of a copper mixture does that mean the jacket has more of a tendency to splinter and form sharp petals?

My son and I have used the AB and Partition exclusively in both the 30-06(180gr) and the 7-08 (140gr). In our experience with these two I'd say you cannot tell the difference between wound channels when compared.. Intrance,channel,exit all very much alike.

I'd use either with equal confidence.. Especially that 180gr AB in 30-06. It dose a hell of a good job!!! JME

I believe the swift retains more weight. But not so sure it will outpenetrate the NP or AB as it forms a much larger mushroom that usually stays intact..

From expanision pics I've seen the Hornady Interbond seems alot like the Swift??

That's one reason I leaned more towards the Swift Scirocco as my choice for a 338-06 load. I'll most likely only hunt deer in my limited days on this earth so I'm hoping it'll perform pretty well. Smallish deer and 338 pills, not sure I have to worry about penetration.

But I still wonder about my question above in regards to jacket composition and how it reacts to opening up easier or at slower velocities.

Interbonds are prolly cheaper and very well may shoot better in your rifle than the swift. Just a thought.

Dawn2dusk,

I have gotten excellent accuracy from Woodleighs.

In fact I just got done with a Ruger No. 1 .450/.400 3" handloading project, and by far the most accurate bullet was the 400-grain Woodleigh, which grouped around 1/2" at 100 yards (3 shots).

This could be seen as a fluke, except ie grouped exactly the same way from a Ruger No. 1 in .405 Winchester....

If it gets much better than this then I won't be able to tell one hole from another (210 gr. Swift Scirocco .338 cal);

Actually considering their new 338 Fed. 338 cal offerings for a Hawkeye I picked up from the fire a few weeks back. Seems to be a lot of folks with a lot of confidence in those bullets and they seem to react the way I'd want.

Worth a try at least.

Nice!!

For deer and using a 338, I'd use the 200gr Ballistic Silvertip (same as Nosler BT) and not look back. Cheaper than the bonded bullets and I've not had anything, including a cow elk, stop one yet.

As I'm already set up with a supply of Swift bullets and a working load, unless it fails miserably I'll probably stick with it. I have, however, seen results of the 200 gr. BT's and they do work rather well.

Just not sure how folks push them to 2850+ from a 338-06 without pressure signs out the wa'zoo...

My load is 2750's and it's hot enough.

I will give my .02's based on my experiences...If it works don't fix it.I see way to many guys wanting to try the newest wizzbang idea's to sell bullets...

I have used Nosler Partitions for 50+ years and have tried about every bullet out there in my early years with disgust trying to save a dime..

The A-Frame is a great bullet and have seen it used many times but it ain't a Partition with the same "immediate" effect the Partition has.There is something to be said about the Partition and how it does what it does..

In Idaho I want them down and out as fast as can be if I do my job because were steep and deep where I hunt.Dead isn't really dead if I have to chase them down some real ugly canyon and tie them up to a tree(dead), just to gut them....

I have to use a bullet that works on Deer/Bear/Elk or whatever in one hunt here as there all open at the same time..Deer bullets are one thing and Elk another but to get one that works equally well on both,is a hard task..The single reason I use "Only" Nosler Partitions now!!!!!

I think Ray and JB are spot on, on this one.A guy shouldn't gamble these new bullets for maybe the one shot he may get.Some people read to much!!!!!

Just another opinion.

Jayco

can't get much better than that! what's the recipe?

Ooohhhh ... when will this project go public?! Looking for data for the same rifle ...

MD ... make some enquiries of Federal regarding the Woodleigh hydrostatic projectile. They are said to have tested and achieved some phenominal accuracy. Its a monolithic concave nosed 'solid' ... but a few have used them here now on medium/large soft skinned game and they are showing more internal damage then expected, ragged exits and straight line penetration.
Cheers...
Con

D2D: Just my read on it,but from what I have seen and understand, the gilding metal will be more brittle,more likely to fragment,shear,etc under high impact velocity,which is why Partitions,in general tend to shed the front cores and peel back to the Partition.(I guess this varies a bit with bullet weight and caliber,as gilding metal can be annealed to softenit and make it less likely to behave this way.IIRC Woodleighs are gilding metal,but annealed to keep them soft.)

In this regard they are very consistent,and behave much the same way at both short and long distance,but are less likely to form that classic mushrom shape we see with the Aframe.

Other than to shoot them, I have no experience with Aframes;but have used the old BBC a good deal;the Aframe was designed with some BBC characteristics(heavy copper jacket and pure lead cores),and they are in some ways similar.The BBC used pure lead for cores,bonded to a very heavy copper jackest.The more maleable(sp?)heavy jackets, bonded to the core,provide support for one another during high velocity expansion,and form a broader frontal area and IME are less likely to fracture or shed the expanded wings,maintaining a broad frontal area all the way through.It is not unusual for them to retain 95% of their weight even after a heavy collision.I have one 7mm here,recovered from an elk,that is expanded to app 60 caliber and still weighs over 155 grains IIRC.

Sometimes very high velocity will cause the wings to collapse back along the shank of the bullet,somewhat reducing frontal area;but the ductile jacket and core holds everything together.

I have been told that the quality of the copper and lead is very important,and can't be too hard or too soft;sorta just right to maintain proper expansion characteristics and still hold together under high velocity impact.

I do know the BBC(like the Aframe)is very tough and can withstand as much velocity as one can give them.This is why the maker recommended "minimum" velocity levels for them,to insure expansion and best characteristics of the bullet.

As to penetration, it is true that smaller frontal areas will generally result in somewhat less penetration,but equally true, I think, that this must be taken in context.And in my use of bonded bullets I have not had any problems getting more than enough of it in any BG animal,including some pass throughs and large exit holes. A lot depends on what gets hit,and the impact velocity.

Apparently you DO need an Abrams tank to kill deer if your shooting them with a 338-06. Sweet Jesus, they most go at least 1000 pounds on the hoof

Come talk to me when you using something shy of an Abrams.

My 338-06 shot the very best with 180 Nosler BT's, no longer made. The AB's are not quite as accurate but close. My other load is the 210 Nosler PT, very accurate but not quite as good as the 180's. The 180 is for deer/black bear and the 210's have been used on caribou and moose.

Don't worry, we in the east use what we have. Is the 338-06 bigger than needed for deer, yes but dead is dead. I will admit the last few years, I have been going all sub .30 caliber(7mm-08 and 280 rem being my focus) but still love the 338-06.

John
You probably know this, but overall, bonded bullets test out the most accurate in a range of calibers and bullet weights. I did a huge amount of range work in the 90's covering various bullet shapes and constructions and during one of those range days, I sent 17 targets to Geoff McDonald where the Woodleighs groups between the .3's to .7's in a range of heavy magnum cartridges over several rifles and shooters for that day.

My .30/06 is loaded with 150gn and 180gn Woodleighs and I have 220grainers on the shelf. There isn't much that this won't cover which can be deppressing if you let it get to you.

John

[quote=SteelheadApparently you DO need an Abrams tank to kill deer if your shooting them with a 338-06. Sweet Jesus, they most go at least 1000 pounds on the hoof

Come talk to me when you using something shy of an Abrams.[/quote]

My current "Go To" deer rifle is a 6.5x55se... I just enjoy rifles so I built a "do all" 338-06.