I am considering building up a 35 Whelen and would like to know what the best twist rate for a 225gr TSX is. Also what do you feel the optimum lenght would be?

12 or 14.

Build to balance, considering diameter/shank etc, whatever floats your boat and hits your 'balance' point.

I've had good luck shooting 250gr Speers from a 16" Remington bbl, but would probably go faster if building.

Am currently getting a 12" twist on a 700 in 358Win.

.

On my custom stainless Ruger MKII .35 Whelen I went with 1:14 and 22". I get 2700fps with 58gr of Varget and the 225gr TSX. If I were to do it again, I wouldn't change a thing.

A few years ago guys started getting 12 twists so they could shoot the true heavyweights, like the 280-320 grain bullets. That fast twist is not needed with the bullets most of us use.

Yup, my 358 Norma has a 12 twist, and it loves the 225TSX. But if I was to spec it again I would go with a slightly slower twist like a 14 as I would probably get better accuracy with cast bullets.

My .35 Whelen, a rebore of a pre'64 Model 70 has a 1 in 14 twist and shoots bullets in the 200-225gr. weights very accurately.

Personally ... 1:12" cut at 22" and about a #3 or #4 contour.
Cheers...
Con

I just ordered a M700 in 35 Whelen and wish it had 1-12" rifling, not the 1-16". I will probably not shoot very heavy bullets, but I'd like the option.

My 35 Brown-Whelen is 1-12 and is just fine from 180-275 grain bullets, never had any 300's to try.

Funny how Remington refuses to change from their 16" 35cal bbls. despite a demand for a faster twist.



.

Had a Ruger 77 in .358 Win for a long time. 16" twist and was enchantingly accurate with 250 grain Hornady spitzers. Sub MOA. If I was building I'd go with 14" twist for either the .358 or .35 Whelen. Got no particular use for anything heavier in either chamber.

My custom mauser has a 1 in 14" twist and shoots .50" groups with the Barnes 225 gr. TSX bullet over 60.4 gr. of RL-15. Reminton brass and winchester WLR primer. Do start a couple of grains lower to start and work up.
My Reminfton 700 and Ruger M77 in .5 Whelen are decently accurate with either the Hornady or Speer Spitzers and 53.0 gr. of H-335. (Caution, well above most maunuals.) I got that load from a Paco kelly article. It also shot well with the 250 gr. Hornady round nose bullet.
I think that a 1 in 16" barrel will suffice, at least with bullets of 250 grains or less.
Personally, if I build another Whelen, it will have a 1 in 12" twist barrel.
Paul B.

My stock Classic M700 Whelen shot Barnes Original 275s just fine. I suppose the extra five grains of the 280 Swift A-Frame might cause them to open up to 6" groups...

That being said, if building I would probably go 1:14.

I had one with a 12 twist.It shot everything I put in it very well.

Cub, the Jolly Green Giant seems slow....and reluctant to change anything. Tis why Ruger did their 260s and Creedmoor in 8, Rem in 9, yet they did get the Swede Classic in 8 - go figure.

Ruger's latest 35s are 12, and surely there is a reason. My 350 MKII shot well enough w/225s I would not change a thing.

22", 12T, .65-.685 at Muzzle.

Whatever Ruger used on my 350 I would be happy w/it. A mag contour of sorts I am sure.

For a commercial action, a good '98, HVA, M70 claw, or Sako Pre-Garcia would be my picks - probably in reverse order..

I built a 35-284 a couple of years ago and I chose a 1-14 twist. I am very happy with it as I generally only shoot 225 gr Nosler, Barnes and sometimes Sierra. The Sierra shoot the best with several 3/4" and 7/8" groups at 100 yards. I have tried some 250 but in honesty they are getting pretty long for this very short neck wildcat.

12 twist 22" #3 contour Pac-Nor for me.

Mike

MontanaCreekHunter,

I don't have a Whelen so I have no dog in this fight.

Twist rate is all about length. Not enough is disastrous, but too much has downsides also.

If the 225gr TSX is about the same length as a conventional 250gr flat base spitzer, then 1 in 16" will do. However, I would recommend 1 in 14" for the flexibility of changing your mind later and using some of the very long, heavy for caliber bullets that are available.

1 in 12" in too much of a good thing. Unnecessary even for the longest available bullets and there are downsides to too fast rifling:

higher pressures restricting max velocity before max safe pressure is reached

faster bore wear

faster/increased jacket metal fouling

slightly less accuracy due to greater effect when bullet center of mass and center of form aren't exactly coincident (which is most of the time with standard production bullets).

Due to the large bore volume compared to the case volume, even very short barrels like 16.5" will be fairly efficient in a .35 Whelen. However, short barreled rifles are fine off the bench, but handle like a club when shot offhand. I would recommend a standard 22" to 24" barrel length for better handling when shooting under hunting conditions.

Please tell me more about what you don't have, I'm hooked!

mmmmmm......well I had a 35 on a blown out 375H&H case with a 12 twist krieger.It did +3000 fps with a 250 gr bullet and 3150 with the 225 Sierra's.....if anything, the malady's cited above should have been dramatically exascerbated in in the 12 twist,given the much higher velocity and case capacity of my 35 vs the Whelen,and a 14-16 SHOULD have been better....once again, in theory,which so much intenet info is based upon.

Precisely none of them occured...there were no excessive pressure signs due to fast twist,accuracy was fabulous,and the bore did not foul excessively.

Just thinkin this through a bit,and using irrefutable logic,a 338(most of them)use a 10 twist;a 375 H&H uses a 12.....what is it that happens between 338 and 375 that a 35 has to have a 14 or 16 twist?

In general I'm afraid I have to say the above "problems" associated with a 12 twist in a 35 to be mostly nonsense.My suggestion is that those who think a 12 twist does not work in a 35 caliber actually buy one and shoot it.

FAster twist is not going to increase pressure significantly. I have a friend that works in a ballistics lab and they did a test from 7 to 14 twist and the difference in pressure was insignificant. More twist is acctualy a positive for terminal penetration, at least that is what tests have shown for sloids.

I went 1-10" on my .358 WSM. i've never wished a rifle was twisted slower, but i've wished for faster twists often.

IMO, the only real downside to fast twist is mostly whipped with better bullets. bullets that are not balanced well will not like faster twist rates, but modern bullets seem to take RPMs pretty well.

Exactly.

I bet that you never will wish for a slower twist. According to Brian Lietz of Berger bullets the only down side to extra twist is added spin drift at long range and I am not talking about 300 t0 400 yards. which is medium range.

yes, i have his book.

catch 22 there. long high BC bullets excel at long range, but require suitable twist rates, which add spin drift.

i'll happily take that over the wind drift short bullets/slow twist bring to the table at long range...

My Ruger M-77 Mk II 35 Whelen was 1:16 and shot 1 MOA with 250-grain bullets at 2,550 fps. I never tried it with light bullets. The faster I ran it, the better it shot. My current Whelen has a 1:10 Lilja. The few loads I've tried were superbly accurate, but that's probably because it's a Lilja and my riflemaker knows what he's doing and not becaue of the rate of twist.


Okie John

When it comes to 'published twist rates' sometimes it's good to clarify w/mfg. I do know I did that w/my 77 350 STAINLESS, the new production, and Ruger said 12", not sure why a late model Whelen would have a different twist, but perhaps due to 'history' but not for any practical reason.

Alot of good 'gack' here, inc. Brazos, but I have to say I think Bobin makes a good post, experience and results always trump theory. I have never had adverse effects over spinning, but once a bbl mfg. under spun my 8" twisted 6.5 w/a 9" by mistake, and I was disappointed above certain bullet wts. - re: accuracy.

Brazos, your points are not 'wrong' just perhaps not to my thinking, strongly significant in real world results. That said, I think hyper-speed small bores using long bearing surface bullets may be more prone to fouling, friction/velocity restricting, etc. but I think it applies more also as you approach and exceed 3,500 mv. Just my gut logic.

My 350 12 twist seemed to never foul, Ruger put one heck of a good smooth consistent bbl on that rifle, a few patches and done.

HELP

I'm having one built right now off of an FN model 1950 Mauser action which is awesome. My question is barrel and twist and I'm leaning toward 1-12. Barrel, I haven't picked yet, but I was wondering, if I go 22" would you do a #3 contour or 4 or 5? I was thinking the #3 might heat up and lose accuracy in a range session, say 20 rounds. I want to do some load development. Does your barrel heat up fast?

Thanks,
Ed

Mine is a Mauser with the Adams and Bennet 24", 1 in 14. It shoots 180-250 jacketed lead bullets just fine. My complaint is that the barrel is too fat, too heavy for a moderate recoil cartridge. I would prefer 22" long, also.

My next Whelen is going to be a 1903 rebored, 1 in 14, 21" long.

If I were building a Whelen it'd be 1-14".

My Whelen is built on a 1 in 12" twist.....I have no complaints at all with it.

I've owned 4 different 35 Whelens. The first was a 1/16 twist. The next was a 1/12. This latter was too fast for the cast bullets I prefer to use. The final two which I still own are 1/14.

With the two latter rifles the heaviest bullet I am using is Lyman 358009 which weighs about 287 grains ready to shoot (gas check and lube in place). Both rifles shoot this and lighter bullets very well. The 358009 is very accurate to 200 yards which is all my local range will permit. So is the Lyman 358318 which is about 250 grains. They are only travelling 2000 fps MV and may be unstable at longer ranges. I don't know.

I am currently playing with .350 (think 348 Win. as the bullets come from moulds for that caliber) cast bullets paper patched to .360 diameter. These bullets are relatively soft (BHN11) and I have just started load development over the past couple of months. I have had little trouble acheiving 1.1 MOA at 2400 fps with 245 grain cast paper patched bullets. I think I can still speed these loads up a bit yet and will be increasing my loads to test to see where the accuracy is limited by the bullet hardness. I would rather keep the bullets relatively soft to enhance expansion. A harder bullet may allow more velocity but I am certain I will get expansion at the alloy mix I am using.

I would be quite happy with 1/14 for my purposes.

By the way, I have loaded 300 grain jacketed for the same rifles and they shot well. 250 grain jacketed bullets shoot very nicely. For me , 1/14 is just fine.

This is one of the caliber/cartridges where you have to have a clear intention of your needs when you select the twist of the barrel. For most people anything that handles 250 grain bullets is fine so, take your choice.

Both of my 35 caliber rifles (Ruger #1 K1A Whelen and the 358-WSM Vanguard)are twisted 1 in 12" and running the 225 gr TSX and 250 gr Partition bullets with excellent accuracy.

Steelhead's advise about building your barrel length and contour to balance, is spot on.

Regarding barrel contour, I'm not sure of the contour of my stock Ruger M77RS Whelen, but the steel looks pretty thin at the muzzle. The gun did strange things with the barrel free-floated. It grouped OK at 100 but went wacko beyond that. That was with 250gr Speers and 59gr Re15. I put a new speed bump in the forend that presses upward pretty hard and evenly on the barrel and it settled down for me. I'm thinking the factory barrel might be a bit light in contour for a 35 caliber bore and wants to whip around. If I were building one I think I would buy a bit heavier barrel. I'm not familiar enough with contour numbers and dimensions to make a specific recommendation, just relating my experience for what it's worth. YMMV.

Regarding twist, again I'm not an expert on specific numbers, but I will say that I would rather err on the twistier side. From what others have posted, it sounds like 1:12" is your huckleberry. If the new gun is specifically for cast bullets then I don't really don't know what to say. I don't shoot cast in my Whelen. That's what 45-70s are for.

Regarding length, I really don't see that one would gain much ballistically beyond a good stout 22-incher with a cartridge of this capacity and expansion ratio. You might think about getting the barrel a bit long at first and then trim it to achieve the desired balance. I personally prefer shorter barrels and rearward balance. That whole "longer barrels hang better" thing is so much hooey to me. But you're not building the rifle for me.

Mine is a King 22" 1 in 12 twist that would probably be described as a heavy sporter and is .635" at the muzzle Pac Nor makes a 1 in 14 twist #3 I think that would be very similar profile to this one. Either a 1 in 12 or 14 will work well IMO

gerrygoat: both my rifles have B. king barrels and are definitely 1/14. Have you actually measured yours or do you know if he has made a change recently?

At the time I got it in 2001 I was told it was a 1 in 12 but I have never actually measured it myself, it's has 7 grooves as well. He may have changed it since then, how do yours shoot? Mine has been quite good, a few years ago I had to scrub it out with JB compound and it shot great again since then. It is nice to be able to use a Canadian made barrel.

I have the same gun in 35 Whelen try the 225 NPT's they work well in it. I've allways thought that the M77RS handled extremely well for me with a Vari X 3 2.5x 8 in factory rings. I suppose its a 1 in 16 twist. Magnum man

gerrygoat: Mine are 5 groove barrels of about the same vintage as yours. Maybe he got a different button about then. My rifles shoot quite well. I wouldn't call them match grade but they are certainly as accurate as any others in their price range that I've used and more than adequate for hunting with and recreational range use. One of mine is chrome moly and the other is stainless but they perform close to identically.

It's a great cartridge for cast bullets and paper patching seems to be working out very well as far as I've gotten with it. Have a new mould being made by Accurate Molds just for the purpose. Bullet should weigh 255 grains. The paper patch is giving me another 400-450 FPS with good accuracy (over unpatched bullets with a harder alloy)but I don't think I've reached the limits of the alloy and paper yet. More shooting will tell the rest of the story.

Best.

Stocker that's interesting, I should also have mentioned mine is a stainless barrel. I would buy another without hesitation it's been good.

Mag Man,

Thanks for the info. I never tried testing my Ruger for twist nor researched it. Its nice to know. Never shot anything bigger than deer with it either, which ain't much of a test for a rifle of its potential. Its for sure plenty gun for deer!

I went with a 1-12 twist to handle heavies and found out the Whelen does not have enough case capacity to drive it to necessary speeds. A 280gr Aframe at 2300fps sounded sweet but after wacking a couple pigs it was just not expanding as I wanted and had much better results with regular 250s at 2500fps.

To do it again I would go 1-14.

Sure is and it handled my last 2 elk with no problems also. My load for it was 225 gr NPT's and IMR 4320. Things tend to get real dead without the meat getting blowed to crap. I suppose the 1 in 16 deal is SAAMI spec or something. Magnum Man

My Whelen is a twelve twist and 22 inches long. I used the twelve because that is what I had on the shelf. If I had to order the barrel, I would probably have ordered a fourteen and seen absolutely no difference in performance! My twelve twist shoots all 250's very well, 200 spire points poorly (2.5moa), 225 Sierras poorly, 200 RN very well, 170 FN very well and 158 FN very well. I think there are other aspects of rifle building which are much more critical than twist; providing the twist is adequate for the bullet length. GD

What I've read is that all Ruger's are a 1 in 14" twist, all Remington's are a 1 in 16" twist.

I have a number of both brands and never measured any of them.

Didn't Bart do a .350 with a 1 in 10 specifically for 200gr TSX? To me that had alot of merit...and the parts for one are sitting here.