I would think this round loaded w/light HPs at modest speed, between a 40 and 10mm would be a nice factory round for a lower recoil ammo, a women could handle, yet the same gun if in a Mag chambering, could handle other duties outside '2-legged' self defense.

Thinking a 170 @ 1,100 or so in a 3.5-4" mid size revolver.

Thoughts?

Sounds good

My 41 Special Ruger Single Six does fine with 215 grs at 800 fps.

Thinking back to the birth of the .44 Magnum we had Elmer Keith touting the virtues of such a thing and shooting heavily loaded .44 Special revolvers until Remington and S&W introduced the cartridge (and Ruger slid into the mix after some industrial espionage). Folks can buy a .41 Magnum now, and load their own .41 Special level cartridges, even shooting shorter case loads if they want.

Who is the writer (or group of writers) performing the Elmer Keith role?

To date the .41 Special is a cult cartridge. The .41 Mag's lack of market success probably limits any appeal for the .41 Special. I would buy one, but then I am not a "market predictor".

jim

OK, how about a .375 Special? Always wondered why there never was a true .38 cal handgun cartridge. Would accomplish the same thing a .41 Special would, and would fit in a smaller frame gun.

John Taffin is a strong adherent and advocate of the 41 Special, but he's not the zealot that Elmer was. I've been known to champion the round (and the 250 Savage) to companies at SHOT, but as a "hobby" writer I'm virtually unknown to most industry types.

If the 40 Shorter & Weaker made sense for the semi-auto crowd, then I believe the 41 Special would be equally sensible for revolvers. But again, mine is a small and lonely voice.

To the gun industry, there's a huge gulf between "makes sense" and "makes money." That's the key issue.

My CCW is a 44 special. and it works fine , also have a 44 mag for heavy duty work.

My Uncle credits you with helping him decide to load 41 specials. I think he ran into you at a gunshow or SHOT.

I love a .41 Magnum. My Black Hawk is my favorite hunter. I also have a SS Taurus 2 1/2" ported 5 shot belly gun in .41 Mag. I use it for pocket carry in bear country with 250gr Federal CastCores. Now I have found the 170gr Sierra HP's in .41 Special from Reed's in OK City. Makes it a nice truck handgun.

FWIW, Reed's have proper headstamped .41 Spec brass for $34 per 100. Good luck.

A fellow had Starline make him a large run of properly headstamped brass for the 41 Special. I don't have his name handy at this moment, but I think he can be Googled. His rates are reasonable. Edit: Yes, it IS Reed's. REED'S LINK

280shooter, I hope your uncle enjoys the round as much as I do!

Now all we need is the FBI (or other large agency) to buy a flock of guns and issue a contract for a bizmillion rounds of ammunition: that will launch it for sure.

jim

Not a 41 fan or follower, but I seem to recall when it was introduced there were two loadings, a "heavy" JHP at max velocity and a lighter lead bullet at 45LC velocity or something similar....?

Yeah, there's the rub.

You can always load down Magnum revolvers and that's what most people recommend. But you're still toting a gun that has to be big enough to handle magnum loads.

The great thing about "Special" revolvers is that they only need be big enough to handle Special pressures - generally about 14,000 to 16,000 psi, so they can be built on smaller frames to be lighter and handier. But most of them will handle +P pressures up to say 23 to 25 kpsi. So you get a handy firearm that can still throw standard weight bullets up above 1000 fps, even up to 1200 fps.

The Ruger Flat Top is an excellent example of this. You can load 250 cast bullets up close to 1200 without undue strain. And that's all Elmer really wanted, his 429421 at 1200.

A 6 shot GP-100 or K-frame .41 Special would be a great revolver. Heck, if they can chamber the J-frame for the .357, with modern heat treating they could give us a Model 15 or 67 lookalike in .41 Special. You could keep it down around 36-38 ounces unloaded, throw 210 grain bullets at 950 fps with ease and probably drive a 215 cast up well over 1100 if you wanted. What the heck, make it titanium and around 18 ounces and go for it - but those little fly weight revolvers are a bit more fun than I like to have with one hand.

Basically what you'd have with a .41 Special is a modern .38-40, and that's a pretty good comparison.

I doubt we will ever see a commercial .41 Special as the .41 Magnum is such a limted seller. But Lipsey's gambled on a .44 Special and it paid off so well that Ruger made them a standard catalogued item. So who knows?

Gambled? They sold out all the K1As that Ruger never made in std. runs. EXECPT the 250-3000 that they promised a few years back and have YET to produce, since offering OTHER models. Their response - Ruger is behind on #1 production. Not sure I am swallowing that, the 77 RSI came in 250, but I wanted a K1A.

Anyways back to the 41, the GP100 would mnake an OUTSTANDING mid sized frame Mag platform as would the L series like a 5shot 686 IMO.

No doubt, history DID have a LE load at sedate speeds, modest recoil, but WHO wants to tote a lead SWC in 41 at slower speeds, when you can get a load w/MORE expansion/shock value, of equal recoil, w/a lighter 170 gr i.e. .40 S&W ballistics?

I am not fond of a 40 in an auto, they work, but I'd rather a 10mm or 45, but in a revolver, I can see the versatility of a small/mid sized 41 mag that has a factory special or downloaded mag load w/light JHPs but not at full speed. Something like the 10mm 175 ST at 1200-1250 is a KNOWN mankiller for defence. A 41 wheelgun could be loaded around 1100-1200 w/170 giving similar TERMINAL performance IMO.

No dout, the 44 special HAS and likely will be a continued success, perhaps a gamble if you asked the industry, but perhaps that very success is a prime case example of the industry being out of touch w/what shooters will buy and use, when given the chance.

Custom handgun smiths have done many a conversion's to 44 sp over the years.

Economics rule, but hey it would be a LOT more fun if these companies would start offering more options, inc. ltd. runs in niche rounds.

If I were to arm my lady w/a handgun for PD, it would be preferable a revolver for simplicity. As nice as a 357 stats are on stopping power, it's not ideal for recoil/blast/flash. On the other hand, many 38 loads like 9mm, in my opinion leave much to be desired if you want that first shot to drop someone. Without having to use moon clips, a 41 sp would be a good option, but I won't argue the old 696 3' was a DANGED good handgun in 44 sp.

But, when thinking on a handgun round to stop someone quick, mass is good, but shock effect/value on a soft target is often enhanced it seems w/lighter faster bullets. So it is the 357 has a better record for instance w/125s than 180s.

Just a Loony thinking of progress......new ideas

+1 on a Ruger GP 100 in a 5 shot .41mag. If Taurus can do it in their small frame SS 28oz ported revolver, I think that Ruger would have no problem chambering the .41mag in a 3or4" sighted GP 100.

I believe that Ruger may be protecting their big bore market. A .41mag GP100 would definitely cut into their short barreled big bore Redhawk market, for a sidearm in bear country.

I don't own a .44mag anymore. I have two .41's, a Blackhawk and a Taurus stubnose, a .45LC Ruger Bisley, and a Glock G20 in 10mm. If I need a larger handgun, I go to a carbine. OK, I'm a wimp.

The GP100 got my attention when Wiley Clapp shot his 4", w/best load of 140 Hornady into IIRC, under 1/2" at 25yds from a Ransom Rest, impressive.

The bigbore RH is fine for bear, but not everyone needs bear protection...as we know. No doubt the GP100 is built like a tank, had one and it was a tough DA.

He's enjoying the heck out of it. Shoots it in his Redhawk for a fun load.

I own a Freedom Arms Model 97 in .41 Magnum that I load down to .41 Special velocities. 210 grain cast bullet at 975 feet per second is a very pleasant and quite accurate load. And the Model 97 is small enough and light enough to be a pleasant carry gun with that load.

That 97 is a JEWEL of a sixgun, no doubt. My last cast loads in 41 were using 1.5 gr less than Unique loads, using Universal Clays - much cleaner burning and better metering than the old stand-by Unique IME.

Let's not forget the great old 38 WCF, the original 40 and a dandy when built on a mid-frame Ruger and loaded using Starline brass.

So why not just use .38-40?

I've never heard of .41 Special. Why reinvent the wheel?

Ask that of the folks who came out with the WSMs, or the 375 Ruger, the 7-08, the 260, or for that matter, the 280.

Mostly just the ease of using a straight walled case with better brass - you can use carbide sizing dies so no lube needed.

Performance wise, you're right, same wheel.

Taurus already makes a 5 shot 41 mag medium frame revolver - the 425. It is the cat's ass with 200 grain bullets at about 1000 fps.

Owned one, it would be a handy 'ladies gun' but a lower recoil option, w/a an expanding load....is whats needed.

The cylinder is short for high performance heavy bullet loads, but aides in compact size/wt. and would be perfect for a 'special' loading IMO.

Why the 41 Special?

Peruse any thread about reduced loads and you'll find cautions about the dangers of small charges in large cases - or outright dire warnings.

Then peruse threads about the 41 Special and see how many ask "Why not just load down a 41 Magnum?"

Maybe you can reconcile those two, but I can't. The 41 Special uses its lower case volume efficiently, burns with much better consistency, and achieves lower velocity spreads than loaded-down magnum cases. Besides, owning one is just plain ... well, special.

you can also find the occasional 10mm in a revolver - such as a S&W 610 or a Ruger in the .38-40/10mm combo. I saw a 610 recently; if it had been one of the 5" guns instead of a 6.5" I would have bought it. Course I already have 2 10mm 1911's...

Dad unfortunately sold his old 41 Colt SAA a few years ago. Stiff loads would not have been acceptable in a 1902 model, but it would have been interesting to work with.

I have found Titegroup to work beautifully for reduced loads including those in the 41 and 44 Magnums and the 475 and 500 Linebaugh's.

65BR

You are correct about the short cylinder of the Taurus, but my Taurus SS Ported Mod 415 snubnose belly gun handles the high performance factory load Federal 250gr CastCore in .41Mag, just fine. It's a handful, but a comfort under your pillow in a tent. At 28oz it is also my platform for the .41 Special.

I may be a snob, but I don't even own a .44 or a .357 anymore. The .41's seem to take care of their work.

Tex, had low cash when a 610 5" popped up in Houston at the AstroHall show yrs back, love the look of the little 4" but it's perhaps heavier than needed.

Croldfort- still have a handy 65LS, the 657s too large w/6" - one a CH full lug/unfluted. No doubt, a 41 can do whatever I need a handgun to do for me. If I need bigger, not interested in a 44 magnum, likely just go 45 Colt in a Ruger, but I'd have to have BIG bears on the menu to feel the urge. 255/265/275 I believe are all avail for 41, twist dependent perhaps, and cyl. length as mentioned.

The Ti Taurus was a nice package as well.

I also have a SS Ruger 5 1/2" Bisley in .45LC and a Glock G20 10mm.

Dr Howell suggested to us several years ago that we could duplicate "special" powder capacity in our magnum cases by seating our bullets extra deep in the magnum case.

I took that advice with the 41 magnum in my 7.5 inch SBH bisley hunter. I have seen great results with reduced loads using Universal Clays and 210 gr jacketed hollow point bullets. Specifically the Nosler 210. Also I have used (shown below) the Berry's 210 plated bullet in this application



The reduced COAL loading has shown low variation in muzzle velocity in what has become my favorite plinking load. 6.0 gr of Universal with the CCI 300 primer and the 210 gr Nosler produced 829 fps, 821 fps, and 825 fps for three shots over the Chronograph.

My "special" loads are loaded to a COAL of 1.465 inches in a magnum case. While my magnum loads are 1.625 inches COAL.

It would be very interesting to see a professional write up in a major publication which discussed this technique for building reduced power loads in magnum cases.

Here is one by Mic McPherson that discusses this technique, among others.

http://www.levergun.com/articles/thoughts.htm

There are two equally arguable viewpoints on this:

You can seat bullets deeper and avoid the need for shorter cases.

- OR -

You can shorten cases and avoid the need for seating bullets deeper.

As they say, you pays your money and ...

Rocky, very succinct

When I can afford to have one of those sweet little five shot 41 specials built on a Single Six, I'll be proud to shoot short brass in her.

But I just can not see the point, as long as I am packing a SBH.

Roxky,

The photos of your custom Ruger .41 Special in your Handloader article on Plated Bullets show why there might be something factory: wow, that revolver is a piece of art.

Who did that work? Thanks...jim

David Clements did the work; thanks for the kind words.

He did MUCH more than you think. I got that revolver as a basket of parts. It had been dragged down a mountainside with its holster belt caught on the rear bumper. The rear sight and the grip frame were ground off, there were deep dings and scratches in the cylinder and the trigger guard was mashed in enough to curl the trigger. I got it for $50 - which is what the guy asked.

Back when Clements was almost an "in" secret and he was still in Mississippi, he performed his magic for me. When I got it back, if it weren't for the serial number, I would not have believed it was the same gun. He rebuilt and refitted everything, changed it to .41 Special and even removed the original Ruger stampings on the frame. How, I could not begin to say. He warned me that those original frames were so hard that the bluing would eventually "purple" but I didn't mind that. Still don't.

Added: for those who missed the article:

Rocky,

Thanks for the info on the smith and what he did. It is a beauty....jim

Great thread!

Rocky - it's great to "see" you here, as your original article (along with Mr. Taffin's several mentions) inspired me to add to my ever expanding .41 collection (Special, Magnum, GNR & SuperMag).

I had Mr. Bowen rework a 686 to .41 Special:


The work includes; Mountain Gun barrel, BP cylinder chamfer, Action tune, Shallow V rear & Tritium Big Dot front, Spegel Cocobolo grips & Lobo Gunleather (stocked up with plenty of .41 Spl headstamped brass as well).

For me and my purposes, it's the ideal balance between revolver size/weight and power/projectile. I have a 586 destined for conversion, and the hots for a couple other platforms for conversion.

Here's a happy .41 cartridge family (missing only my .41 GNR & "some day" .410 GNR):


Doing more than my part to keep .41's alive.

Press On, Regardless.

MadBadger

Thanks for the kind words.

Yes, you are certainly doing at least your share, LOL!

Always would have desired an 'L' framed 41, would have to come w/NO lock though.

It and a GP100 seem like the best 'balance' in size/wt. for a 41 in a 4" bbl.

I wonder if the 4" 610 is an L or N frame? Too bad it was not in 41...esp. w/a fluted cylinder to save needless bulk there. That short cylinder, assuming that 10mm is an L frame.

My Single Six 41 Special.

The 610 is an N frame. And yes it is a bit heavy for the caliber, but you could certainly take full advantage of the cartridge with it. 4" and 6.5" barrels are more commonly found than the 5". There are a few heavy barreled 41 mags around, but I don't recall any with a 5" barrel.

I have a 5" heavy barreled 629, and I do like the balance and feel of them. Also have one of the rare Bianchi holsters for it. Actually would like to find a 5" M27, too.

Very nice indeed, Tony. Gotta stop looking before the drool shorts out my keyboard ...

Good thread ,I don't think I need a 41 Special but more power to those that do. My M57 S&W 6" works with Unique and cast SWC at 210 grs just fine for mid-range loads at under 1000fps and as needed with full power 210 JHP's and H110. When I first got it I bought 3 50 rd boxes of WW 210 gr lead swc loads for it. They were loaded at under 1000 fps but were a really soft alloy. These were marketed for LEO use and if them guys spent the time deleading their barrels as much as I did that gave the 41 some pretty negative press. I passed on a couple of 41 cal Lyman moulds in the last couple of years as they were for gas checks but 41 gas checks are no longer availible thru Lyman or Hornady.Some folks over on Cast Boolits forum are making their own gas check tooling and selling it, so maybe they will get more availible on a custom basis. After awhile Rocky, promote a 41 Spcl with a case about a 1/10" longer that uses gas checked bullets for better performance levels will ya?... Magnum_Man

A 41 Special with a longer case for more performance, huh? Hmmmm Wonder what we could call it.

Thanks Tex, had thought over the past of possibly chopping one of my 657s down to 4.5-5", though likely the fluted/std bbl, not the Classic Hunter 6.5.

Tony, slick Special, on that S.S. frame. Can't recall if it was a 41 on a 327 that someone posted on GBO site, some question strength, but I suppose the word, 'in moderation' comes to mind when loading for it.

Sure looks like ONE Sweet Special...41! 5 Shot?

I could see THAT perhaps being even handier for a packin pistol that say a 44 sp or 41 on say an FA97.

I load 6 grs of Unique under a 215 gr SWC, which is plenty in a 25 oz gun. It is a five shot so the cylinder wall is actually thicker than that of a Colt SAA 45 Colt.

Wow, not a Colt guru, but those 45 walls must be thin at their weakest point.

Neat lil 5 gun! Thanks for sharing.

I still reallly like that little Ruger.

No doubt, the 'Lil 41' is sweet, wonder if Ruger might would do a few in R&D and then do a mfg. run for the public, looks like a REALLY handy little 5 shooter!

BTW, I'd want the single six JUST like the one above, the OLD style, wouldn't change a thing! Very clean design, and functional.

I have a 5.5 Ruger SS I keep considering converting to .38 Special.

Expat