I�m hoping Mule Deer will weigh in on this.

I�m planning on switching to the most temperature insensitive propellants I can for most of my rifle cartridge reloading. This has me considering standardizing on several Hodgdon Extreme Powders, Some of the cartridges I will be loading for, like the 9.3x62 and 6.8 SPC, are volumetrically challenged, which make the denser ball powders, like the RamShot line, attractive.

In terms of temperature sensitivity, how do the RamShot powders compare to the Hodgdon Extreme powders?

Hodgdon H4350 vs Ramshot Hunter

Hodgdon Varget vs Ramshot Big Game

Hodgdon H4895 vs Ramshot TAC

Hodgdon H322 vs Ramshot X-Terminator

Brazos_Jack

I haven't tested H322 or X-Terminator in cold, so I don't know about them.

The Hodgdon Extremes are overall the most consistent powders in cold temps that I've tested, but in my tests TAC and Big Game did just about as well as the Extremes. Hunter (and Ramshot) didn't do quite as well, but were still very good.

That said, according to a very experienced lab technician, temp-stability can change depending on the cartridge and application. He used the word "stressed" when describing what happens to a supposedly temp-stable powder when the powder is used outside it's normal uses.

He gave the specific example of Varget with 140-grain bullets in the .260 Remington. Varget wouldn't be the "best" Extreme powder to use with 140's. Instead the best choice would probably be H4350. In that application, he said, Varget loses some temp-stability.

I've used quite a bit of Ramshot TAC, Big Game, Hunter and Magnum when hunting here in Montana in cold weather, and all have done very well--as my chronograph tests indicated they should.

"That said, according to a very experienced lab technician, temp-stability can change depending on the cartridge and application. He used the word "stressed" when describing what happens to a supposedly temp-stable powder when the powder is used outside it's normal uses".


Vhtavuori had posted the same/similar findings in regards to temp-stability on their website. It's very cartridge specific as to just how stable a given powder is. I don't know if it's still on the website or not.

Just trying to add a little something JB.

Thanks for the additional info!

When I've run my own cold-tempeature tests, I've tested cartridge/bullet combos that are very well suited to the powders, such as TAC and Benchmark with 50-grain bullets in the .223, or H4350 and Hunter with 100-grain bullets in the .257 Roberts.

The mechanism of MV variation with temperature is that cold steel, lead, and brass rob more energy from the propellant gas than hot steel, lead, and brass do. Different chamber surface areas and cartridge case masses require different compensations for initial temperature. JB is absolutely correct that a powder that compensates very well in one cartridge will likely compensate poorly in another.

John,

The one variable I question is primers. I noticed that often Ramshot load data shows standard primers over magnum primers.

I started out before hunting season with an Accurate ball powder in my 7-08 and standard primers. In the warmer weather it was a 1/2" combination, but when got cold it opened up. Out of concern I switched to a stick powder.

If I had started with magnum primers, would I have been more likely to maintain groups in different temperatures?

Aaron

It would have been something to try, for sure.

I sometimes find magnum primers make an accuracy difference with Ramshot powders even at "normal" temperatures.

Thanks John,

The density of Big Game should definitely make it easier to get enough powder under a 250gr NAB or 286gr NP in a 9.3x62 than with Varget for top velocities.

Xterminator looks like a good way to get enough powder under a 110gr or 115gr for a good whitetail load in 6.8 SPC. I just hope its temperature stable enough to be consistent in all conditions.

I haven't found Big Game to have any advantage with 250's in the 9.3x62, but it's definitely a top powder with 286's.

In my CZ550FS, a recent experiment with 9.3X62 250 grain NAB and 63.5 grains of Big Game with WLR primers gave good results. Would you recommend I play with magnum primers to optimize for hunting temperatures ~5 - 10 degrees below freezing?

Many thanks!

The only time I use magnum primers with Ramshot powders in standard cartridges is if I'm not getting the accuracy desired with regular primers. WLR primers are pretty hot anyway, so I'd just stick with your load.

I've been researching this on the interweb because I'm I have two good loads, one with 8208 XBR and another with TAC and am inclined to go with TAC if it's reasonably temperature insensitive. From what I've been able to dig up it seems to be pretty good. However, all the comments have been subjective and I haven't read any actual tests/samples to state actual changes across a temp range.

Many thanks!

You're welcome!

What sort of velocity and accuracy are you getting?

Mule Deer, how does Reloader 15 stack up against Varget, Big Game, Tac, etc in terms of temperature sensitivity? I recently started trying RL 15 in my 308 with 150's and 165's and accuracy has been stellar compared to Varget and IMR. 4895. Some say RL15 is very temp sensitive and others say it isn't. Any thoughts? The majority of my shots are well under 200 yards and a 300 yard shot would be rare where I hunt. Thanks!

Colin,

In my experience RL-15 is the most temp-resistant of the Reloder series, but in my tests Varget, Big Game and TAC are better in most cartridges.

But as I have pointed out now and then, if you're shooting at shorter ranges (and out to 300 would qualify) then the big factor is where the bullets land. If there's no significant difference in point of impact at various temperatures, then you're good to go!

Thanks!

I plan to get some readings in real high temps this summer with TAC, H4895, 8208 XBR, Leverevolution and 2000MR and then repeat on a relatively cold day next winter. Wonder if keeping rounds iced and then chambering them and shooting quickly would reasonably replicate winter temps. barrel wouldn't as cold, and as long as it was shot very quickly the primer and powder wouldn't get heated up much. Certainly not the powder anyway. Hmmm, something to try.

My experience is that just cooling (or heating) the ammo doesn't produce the same results as when EVERYTHING is at "hunting temperature," whatever that is.

John,

There hasn't been much mention of Benchmark, and I'm using it in my 358 WSSM - how does it compare vs TAC with regard to temp insensitivity?

Thanks!

Like all of the Extreme line of Hodgdon powders, Benchmark is very temp-resistant.

Definitely would prefer to have everything just as it would be hunting. True cold bore shot. In the end, as long as it hits in the same place I'm happy.

MD - I see a similar powder book to accompany your bullet book.

You have access to real pressure equipment and a wide range of temperatures. "The Definitive Study of Powder Characteristics" should hit shelves in early 2013.........

Seriously, this book needs done and can be updated every few years as powders change. Heck Winchester powders would keep you in material forever at the rate they introduce/discontinue powders. I would work for free in any capacity necessary to put it together.

As John said Tac and Big Game are very temp consistant because they are ball powders made first for military use in 7,62x51Nato and other rifle cartriges like 5,56x45Nato with heavy bullet (Tac). They are made in Belgium in Poudrerie de Clermont a plant who belong to the French SNPE and they use a modified Olin brevet. The plant was put at work during the cold war. They even make one very slow ball, slower than Magnum for use in 338Lap and .50Bmg.

The only differences between cilivian and military powders is a conservation product that allows 50years stocking in military wharehouses. May be today this thing is no more real because of the quantities of ammo burn in wars for ten years....
RL15 is from Swedish Bofors company (have good ties with SNPE and Vitahvuori and works together in powders and explosives business).Some batches are used for US military ammo in 5,56x45, not same name but same powders. It seem to be a bit less temp variation resistant, but nothing to brag about.
All the best
Dom

Results are preliminary and, to me at least, a bit of a surprise. I have produced only one 3 round group, on a trip to the range this last Monday (temperature 18.7 degrees C). 63.5 grains Big Game, COAL 3.315, 250 NAB, WLR primers, new Lapua brass, 100 meters, avg velocity 2402 fps, 0.857 inches centre to centre.

I'm now stimulated to try and reproduce this pleasing result, which is one of the better groups this rifle has produced. After much fooling I am getting right around an inch plus or minus with 58.5 grains of Varget and ~2400 fps. Best ever group, but again preliminary, is 57 grains of RL 15 behind a 250 grain TSX loaded to 3.291 COAL at ~2150 fps according to the chrono, which measured 0.58 inches centre to centre (3 rounds).

Genehunter,

To tell the truth, that sounds like a typical 9.3x62! I've loaded for several, and they've all shot very well.

Those loads match traditional velocities with the round, and will definitely work well in the field.

They can also be pumped up a little, if you don't mind the extra recoil, at safe pressures.

The rifle does seem forgiving!

I found some of your suggested loads on-line. I will play with these, exercising appropriate caution. Thanks for these...very helpful. I am getting to the point where the case is rather full, so would imagine I am nearing the top end...

I see most of the conversation is directed toward cold weather sensitivity. How about hot weather? The prairie dog towns get pretty warm in the summer. I switched to H-322 from H-335 for that reason in .223, and have moved to Big Game from H-414 in .22-250 loads with good results.

The powders that show less sensitivity to cold also are less sensitive to heat. It's different, though. I have tested a number of powders that didn't lose any velocity from 70 F. down to zero, but above 70 they ALL gain some velocity--which means that pressure also increases. The temp-resistant powders just don't gain as much.

I have seen some real wonky things happen with tradition ball powders on prairie dog towns in July. Those tend to be the most heat-sensitive powders of all, and I have actually seen a few rounds "cook off" when the shooter ran a cartridge into the chamber of a hot barrel and then paused to looked for a dg to shoot.

Haven't seen that happen with any of the newer temp-resistant powders.

Well, I didn't have one cook off, but I did get some sticky bolts after some .223 rounds with H-335 rounds got hot! I have not had the problem with H-322, TAC or Big Game. I have also gotten the best accuracy ever out of my Kimber Varmint .22-250 with Big Game under 50 and 55 gr Ballistic Tips - many 3 shot groups under or at 3/8 inch.

Big Game is a GREAT powder in the .22-250--and the .220 Swift.

I have done a fair amount of 'testing' geared towards temp sensitivity in a cool to hot environment. I don't get much opportunity to shoot at sub-zero temps but I can shoot at temps over 100 degrees all summer long.

I would load and test in 40-60 degrees and then retest in 100+ temps. Some powders are pretty poor in this regard ie. H870, H450 and IMR 4064.

I found the Ramshot powders to fair very well in this environment. I have used them quite a bit and nearly always 'try' them to see if they work well. I use TAC more than anything else in that burning range. I use it in .222 through 30-30 and many things in between. I use Big game in 22-250 and 220 Swift. It is the only thing I like better than 4064 in 220 Swift!

I don't think Hunter is as good as the others and certainly not as good as Magnum as far as getting good velocities compared to similar burn rate powders.

I haven't tried it yet, but Hunter looks like it would be good (velocity-wise) for the 85 gr TSX in a .243. When I get time, I intend to play with that combo a little.