I was pretty interested in this article, but he's showing loads that all fall well short of the Remington Factory ammo.

I'm trying to get an original Krag ready to shoot on a doe hunt. It really likes the Nosler 180 gr Ballistic Tips, but so far I am only getting about 2200-2230 fps out of them(48 grains Reloader 19). The factory loads show considerably more case expansion than these loads.

I have no intention of abusing this old family heirloom, with its one locking lug, but I would like to see at least 2300 fps or so, for deer under 80 yards. Anyone have any suggestions?

How would a deer at 80 yards tell the difference between 2200fps and 2300fps? And, assuming you're shooting with open sights, what advantage would that 100fps give you in trajectory at 80 yards? If you're getting 2200 I'd keep it there and not worry about it.

Funny how the .30-30 has been decking deer for over 100 years, at those ranges (and then some) with a 170 grain .308" bullet at a MV of about 2200.

I'd run those, or the factory fodder, and not fret it.

I went through a spell where bad shoulders precipitated youth loads from my 30-06.

Don't fret the velocity. Even pansy loads kill deer at conservative ranges.

If you are getting 2200 fps with a 180, that is 10 grains more bullet and over 200 fps more actual velocity than a 30-30. An extra 100 fps will make no differnce.

tex_n_cal'

I've been shooting deer for about 60 yrs. and have shot them with a vast array of calibers at various speeds. I've recently been hunting with a hot wildcat 3000+ fps with the newest whiz bang powders and bone bashing bullets but I gotta say - The most deer I ever killed was with a model 64 Winchester in 32 Special shooting a 170 grain bullets at about 2200 fps (Muzzle) Never shot at one that it didn't kill - pronto!

I would confidently load your 30-40 with those 180's at 2200 that it likes and hunt and grin.

I doubt either you or the deer you shoot with it will be able to tell the difference between the velocities you are getting (which are fully adequate) and the velocities you were hoping for.

Load 'er, Hunt N grin.

That's my viewpoint, yours may differ.

Jim

It's funny how we can get our minds locked on a certain "gotta have" velocity, isn't it? I'm sure we have all done it, not just our good poster here. I know I have.

Unless we can reach that mental minimum, we just aren't happy, no matter how insignificant the difference might be in reality. And the closer we get, the more determined we can be to get the rest of the way. I've corresponded with guys who have locked up bolts trying for the final 50 fps to get to their arbitrary magic velocity. They never ask if a bit less speed is all right after all; they invariably ask what trick or powder can get them to their number. Fascinating.

tex_n_cal, I can only echo what the others have said: take what you have and get ready to cook deer steaks. But I know that it will have only as much effect as an echo - none.

Here's some advice: chronograph your load as is. Whatever the machine says, add a bit for "instrumental error" and proudly write 2300 fps in your load log. Now go kill a deer with a clear mind.

In my Krag 180gr SuperX factory ammo gives 2291 fps.
45 gr of 3031 with a 180 gr round nose gives 2204.
Close enough, good accuracy.
Good Luck!

In my Krag 180gr SuperX factory ammo gives 2291 fps.
45 gr of 3031 with a 180 gr round nose gives 2204.
Close enough, good accuracy.
Good Luck!

I would trust Mike V for load info over his friend shrapnel


Mike

I don't care who you are that's funny!

I guess I'll explain that I'm trying to avoid a repeat of the last time I shot a deer with an antique rifle - in that case it was a Stevens 44 & 1/2, in .32-40. I had worked up loads with Hornady 170's at 1900 fps, and was assured that time, that lots of old-timers had killed deer with no problem with such loads out of .32-40's.

I certainly did get a good blood trail from the doe I shot at 40 yards, but the trail eventually stopped, and she turned out to be the only deer I've ever shot & lost. What was meant to be a cool experience proved disappointing.

I have tried lighter bullets in the rifle - it didn't like them. The 180 BT's that shoot so well in the old Krag are recommended for impact velocities of 1800 fps minimum. They would indeed be above that when launched at 2200 - but not much above it. I'd like a little more safety margin. That's the first goal.

The second goal is - I'm about 300 fps below Rem factory velocities. I'd like to be in the ballpark, and 300 fps shy ain't my idea of a ballpark. Perhaps I should have asked for a load "factory equivalent, or a touch less".

Anyhow, I am trying to be respectful of the game, and also respectful of great grand-dads old rifle. I really don't believe I'm on a ego trip to push its limits.

And Rocky I do need to get around to buying one of your books one of these days...

I was expecting SOMEONE to mention Shrapnel

Guess I could try some of the flex-tip Hornadys in it, they are designed to expand out of a .30-30

vA .32-40 at 1900 fps will kill any deer that walks just find and dandy with room to spare - if you put the bullet in the right place. Bad shot placement is just that. Bad.

Not to sound too cynical, but I largely quit reading MV after he decided he'd only write on what's in his safe.

Considering he has more cool schit in his safe than I'll likely ever see, much less own, I can't fault that.

That is not true, he writes about stuff in my safe too.

I would never consider shooting a Krag with anything but 220 grain roundnoses at about 2100 fps.

But he only shoots the stuff that's not blown up yet. Still a helluva lot of hardware and experience. Personally, I usually don't crono loads til I get an accurate one. Then I check to make sure it's not overboard. I find the ballistic tables less reliable than actual shooting over distances, and I put a lot of store in usable brass life.

fail to see the problem? a writer writing bout stuff they know and actually use........and the issue is? not like no one else is writing bout other stuff......

whole lot bout what Mike V. writes about that doesnt interest me but the stuff he does write about that does interest me i really like.....

If'n I owned a .30-40, and I knew my shots would be 100 yards or less, and I was using open sights, I'd cast some heavies out of wheel weight with gas checks, find a load that gave me 2000fps and good accuracy and I'd go shoot a critter...up to and including 400 pounds!!! And I wouldn't worry about going any faster.

Dan

My Krag (Bannerman cutdown, 21" Barrel, S-K scope mount)load is a 150 gr ballistic tip over IMR-4064 at around 2500 fps. As accurate as anything I've tried in this rifle.

Tex - Have you punched the data into external ballistics software to see at what distance you would be below 1800 fps (or 1900 fps if you want to add your own cushion to the padding Nosler adds to their minimum impact velocity)?

Even if you used 1900 as your minimum impact velocity, you should be good to go for more than a hundred yards past your stated 80 yard range with a muzzle velocity of 2200 fps and a 180 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip. If you thought you might be shooting past 250 yards, I might be concerned with a 180 gr BT starting at 2200 fps, but short of 200 yds, I personally wouldn't give it a second thought.

Yea, but with 35,000 psi 45 Colt loads in the Colt Model P, Shrapnel gets higher velocity than Mike V, although there is some gas cutting out the side of the cylinder.

Considering that the old government load of a 220 grain bullet at a skinch over 2000 fps was what earned the Krag it's reputation, I would say that 180 at 2200 fps would more than suffice. If you're concerned about your bullet not expanding at distances where the velocity has fallen off a bit, then look for a different bullet that will. Why push 110 year old steel to it's limits if you don't have to?

I wonder if the speeds that you are trying to were attained in a full-length Krag rifle with, what was it, 28-30" barrel? If yours is 8-10" shorter you're behind the 8-ball right off the bat.

It's been years since I played with a Krag but the several boxes of handloads I found from back then jogged my memory regarding my solution that parallels D Chamberlain's. Lyman 311284 220gr. @ a chrono'ed 2050 out of a carbine barrel.

No one has asked the obvious question. If Rem factory loads get the velocity that tex seeks - why doesn't he just use factory ammo? Of course, if he hasn't actually chronographed factory stuff, but is just going by what Remington claims their ammo gets, he might be pleasantly surprised by putting some factory stuff over the screens. I'd personally bet that Remington isn't loading their factory ammo all that warm, considering the guns it'll be fired in.

Not digging at ya, tex. Just wondering about all the possibilities.

It would be the gas cutting on my handsome face that would worry me...

Mike

The .308" 180 gr. Bal Tip isn't all that soft. Nosler stiffened them a while back because people kept using them on elk.

The Krag has a 1 in 10 twist.
Deer, especially a typical doe, is not hard to kill.
You don't need 180 gr bullets.

Get some of these Barnes TSXs:

.308″ (30-30 Win)
Diameter Weight Description S.D. B.C. CAT#
.308" 150 gr TSX FN .226 .184 30820

and load them up to around 2500 fps. Shoot the doe thru both front shoulders and she'll drop like a stone with little meat damage.

Front row 7th from left.



Loaded in a 303 Savage @2200 fps and deadly.

I did not see the article. . . .

But 125 grain B-Tips have worked extremely well for a friend at 2500 fps.

BMT

I looked up the B.C. on that bullet and Nosler claims a very respectable 0.507. At U.S. Army Metro conditions you'll still be kissing 1900 fps at 200 yards with about 8" of drop. With an iron-sighted 30-40 Krag, what's the problem?

Note: The 8" of drop was assuming a 100 zero...

And at 80 yards the bullet should be moving in the neighborhood of 2,075 fps with plenty of mojo to knock any deer face down.

yup, that is what I have heard as well, and is part of my concern.

To answer Rocky, the Rem factory loads I unfortunately did not chrono, since I had forgotten the tripod at a previous range trip. They do impact higher, and show substantially more case expansion than my last loads, so there is little doubt in my mind they are hotter. I don't have a lot more room in the cases either, between 48 gr of Reloader 19, and the 180 BT's seated to 3.17 OAL.

I am thinking the Hornady FTX and Reloader 17 might be real interesting, but I don't know if I can get that developed by Christmas. The other part of the story was I wanted to blood the Krag, then give it to an uncle (which is a long story by itself) for Christmas.

guess more research is in order, but I will share the results

Thanks, that is good info.

My curiosity is partly assuaged. Thanks!

Often a higher impact points toa lower velocity. Longer barrel time give muzzle rise more time to act on the bullet....
Not always but often in my limited experiance.

In my 14" and 22" Contender 30/40s I have gotten best results (accuracy and high velocity) from H-414. I called the factory ballistic guys asking about H-414 load data, they suggested max loads about 2 gr over my loads, my barrels have a bunch of freebore (or are just properly throated for 220s), never-the- less they shoot best with any Hornaday bullet I have tried seated to the cannelure. Did not chrono bullets heavier than 165s and 170s but velocities were bumping 2500 fps in the 14" bbl. I do not use much ball powder anymore because the extrudeds are so much more temperature stable...Pulled 147 ball bullets loaded with Unique (cast bullet data)were super accurate, one holers @ 50 yards. And of course my data is DANGEROUS and must never be used. Best Wishes.

I've been shooting various 30/40's (Lee Enfield, Krag, P-14, Ruger 77) and hunting with them for thirty-some years. For deer, I've come to believe the 150 grain bullet is best. In the Lee Enfield, I load them to about 2650 fps if I want the brass to live long. I use both Speer and Hornady and don't really have a preference. GD

Tell us about that one. I was thinking of trying one with a P14 mag box and a Ruger #3 barrel.

Bruce

I shoot a 1898 Krag Calvary Model.. one of 5,000 made.

My load is a paltry 25 grains of SR 4759 with a 165 grain ballistic tip.. or a 180 grain ballistic tip..

duplicates what I shoot at target at 200 yds, with 168 grain match bullets..

there isn't a deer on the planet that either ballistic tip won't take at 200 yds... and MV is right at 2000 fps or so..

the rifle will give a 3 inch group at 200 yds with open sights..

as long as it has a shooter that can see that good any more..

a target looks like a flea at 200 yds for me any more...

My Ruger 77 is a solid bottomed single shot target rifle. It has been modified to use a Remington 2 ounce trigger.
The P14 Mag box is a good way to get the cartridges to stack properly but I'm not sure what you might have to do to the rails. Except for the P14, I decided bolt actions work best with rimless cartridges.
I built a 30/40 on a Siamese mauser once because Frank DeHaas said it was a perfect fit. It isn't! The rifle worked ok and shot well but I never did get it to feed well enough to satify me so I took it apart (it's barrel went on the Lee Enfield). GD

Try Ramshot "Hunter."

Along with Hunter, H4350 is another fine powder in the .30-40.

But expansion of the 180 BT on deer will be fine even at 2200 fps. I've shot prairie dogs with that bullet from a .30-40 at ranges out to 300+ yards, the bullet started at 2350 fps or so. It expanded all the way out there, where the impact velocity had dropped to 1800 fps or so.

I have a 95 Winchester in 30-40. I developed some loads with 4350 that would shoot 1.5 to 2.0 groups at 100 yds. this is with peep sights. These 70 year old eyes are no doubt the limiting factor. I figured a 150 would work on deer. I also shot some old Winchester 170s over the same load as the 150s. Same groups.

Thanks to all for the advice. Some loading is on order tonight, chrono testing on Friday, and hopefully a doe or cull buck on Saturday.

I was given my first "real rifle" in 1960. It was a U.S. Krag carbine, .30-40 Army. Every thing I shot in the right place fell over, dead. 180 Win. factory loads at first, 180 Speer roundnoses and the old turned Nosler Partition semi-spitzers both with IMR 4350 after around 1962. When I got out of the Army after a sojurn in the Big Rice Paddy I had enough money to have a new Douglas barrel and Lyman 48 receiver sight installed. Wish I still had that carbine barrel. In addition to 180s' the old Speer 200 Roundnose is my favorite, and I've accumulated enough to last me. IMR 4350 is still good but Ramshot Hunter is promising and meters better. The Ramshot ballistician has been very helpful with data for other caibers not in their published data. I can get 2280 with Speer 180s' over the chrono from that Douglas 24" barrel with no sweat, and wouldn't be bothered by 50 fps less. Maybe the newer bullets are "tougher" because of the magnum calibers, but if you haunt the gun shows there are plenty of the older Speer and Sierra bullets out there, and the Krag action really does like RN bullets.

The .30-40 was a smokin' load in its' day, can you imagine how flat it shot compared to the older black powder loads? I have a bunch of fairly modern big game rifles (no magnums) but I'm tempted to take that old Krag of mine out one of these years and use it on everything from prairie goats to elk, and if lightning strikes with a permit, moose.

The article by Mike was as always a very good one and got all the historical facts right as well as providing great data. Very appropriate since the ol' .30 Army was snubbed in the "special" .30 cal. issue.

They definitely expand when you hit the shoulder...



Didn't make it to the range for chrono testing, so I took the 48gr Reloader 19/Nosler 180 BT load hunting. A bit of patience, and I got her Sunday morning. Amazing that she made it about 50 yards, as neither front leg was working! Check one off the bucket list, getting a deer with Great-Grandad's rifle.