I've looked at those two grand old levers over and over on GunBroker for quite a while.

I want one.

Is one 'supposedly' better than the other in fuction or design? I've never shot either one.

I do like the removable mag of the Win 88. Did some 99's have that too? I thought I saw one ad for a 99 that did have a drop out mag, but haven't seen anything since that.

I've been turned into a 358 nut the last couple of years, I realize I'd better get my piggybank out for either one in 358....

99.

88s have DMS which cannot be replaced.

BMT

All 88's have detachable magazine. Replacements here:
http://www.wisnersinc.com/rifles/winchester/88_100.htm

Some 99's have detachable magazines.

Shops around here appear to have about equal numbers of each, but there are many more rotary mag 99's than either.

Bruce

99C's have the detachable box magazine.

Are the 88's and 99's fairly similar in action design? Or totally different?

I do believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that the 88's use a design similar to that of the Browning BLR?

Totally different.

The 88 uses a rotary, front locking bolt.
http://www.wisnersinc.com/exploded_views/Winc_88.htm

The 99 bolts rear end lifts up into the receiver opening and locks at the rear of the bolt.
http://www.urban-armory.com/cart/blueprints/savst_m99.gif

Bruce

Get both. I've had both and prefer the 99, but the 88 has its virtues too, most notably its fast handling and ability to be easily scoped. Later 99's can be scoped as well, but the best of the 99's were not d&t'd.

Thanks for the pics! Does the 99 have a direct side eject, or is it more 'up and out'?

Which of the two has the higher stock for eye-to-scope alignment?

The 99 ejects to the side, but I believe the 88 is better suited for scope mounting.

I've got a 99, and it's well suited for a scope, although the earlier ones weren't d&t.

The 99 cocks on the closing stroke, and I think the 88 cocks on the opening stroke, if that matters.

Since you want a .358 it is not hard to have it rebarreled. I did that to my 88 saving a bunch of moneyan origianl would cost. Some have said the magazine for .308/.243 won't work well with the larger .358, but I haven't had a problem with mine.

Hard to go wrong with either one, they're both cool rifles. Asides from both having a lever that's about the only thing they have in common. Had a 99R in 300 Savage with a K4 Weaver on it that I used to take quite a few whitetails. Have never owned a 88 but would like to. Only thing I didn't like about my 99R was that it was heavy. I would recomend one of the lighter models.

If you are brave enough take this question over to the Savage Collectors forum. The 99s were factory DT'd starting with certain models in the mid-late 1950's. The early factory drilled guns are super desirable since they combine workmanship with scope accommodation. RP

Exactly my plan! Do you mean rebarreled, or rebored?

I see there are some 88 Carbine 308's floating around out there, and for a gun that I plan on USING and not sitting the safe or collecting value, I was thinking about having a 88 Carbine 308 bored up to 358 as a more economical way of getting there. Win 88's a simple screw-on barrel?

Of course, I would still love to find an actual factory 358 "just to have"....

Why did they put a barrel band on the 88 Carbines? What is different about that carbine model that required a barrel band?

I have both the 99F and a M88 and like them both. Although I have used the 99 since 1966 and just got the 88 a few years ago only to work it's lever I could have been happy with either one.

They both weigh the same scoped at 8#, 1oz.

The 99's lever is a little easier for me to use as it cocks on closing where we have hand strength. The 88 cocks at the end of its out stroke. Not a big deal. Both have so - so triggers.

Since I don't prefer detachable mags. we can't get along on that. My 99 has the famous rotary mag.

My 99's have a two position tang safety that locks the lever. Its a little better than the two position cross button on the 88 to use. That one is also just a trigger safety and it does not lock the lever closed.

They are both superb woods rifles. I would take either one and would not pass up a 308 for now if you can buy it right.

I would guess the barrel band was for looks, probably didn't do anything good for the accuracy though.

My thoughts too, just wanted to be sure that nothing notable changed for that carbine model.

I see the 88 Carbines do get a premium price. If I was buying a 308 for a rebore project to 358 (and I do like carbines), I'd just get the cheapest 308 88 I could find and then whack the barrel at 19" or so and rebore to 358.

Were the 99's ever available as a carbine model?

If you want to rebore a 99, go with a clip model. Much easier to not have to worry about the rotary or other internals.

As to d&t.. The Savage 99R was factory d&t starting in 1950, the 99F starting in 1955, the 99EG starting in 1957'ish, and every model made after 1960 was factory d&t. The pre-1960 rifles had rotary mags and lever safety, the post-1960 rifles were a mix of rotary and clip and all were tang safeties except for the 99E. Lots of after market d&t 99's available, and they have the bonus of being cheaper since their "collectibility" has been removed.

If you can find and afford a pre-1960 99F in 358, you'll love it far more than any clip model.

And don't overlook the 300 Savage as being a great hunting round. My 1945 99EG is now 15 deer down for 15 shots, and even Steelhead is a convert to that cartridge.

Good luck whatever your choice!

PS: The Savage 99's have FAR more class than those 88's. Jmho..

Great info! thanks- and a classic picture too, beautiful.



300 Sav has taken a LOT of whitetails over the years, great caliber. But I have four 358's now, and a good stash of the old Silvertip 358 ammo, so I might as well keep on going in that direction....

Can I ask what is special about the pre-1960 99F? Is that a drop mag or internal rotary?

1960 for Savage is kind of the equivalent of 1964 for Winchester. Quality and desirability went down afterwards, though the rifles are still great hunters. And all pre-1960 Savage 99's are rotary mags.

Calhoun: is there a place on the web that describes the different variants of the M99, EG, F, R, C, etc? thanks

I have both also, my 99R 358 was made the first year Savage offered that caliber.
My 88 started out as a 308 post 64 (which actually is the better 88) I had it rebored to a 338-08 (338 Federal). The 88 is more like a bolt action operated by a lever, the rotating bolt head makes for great lockup and excellent accuracy. Triggers can be a little mushy but it's a hunting gun not a bench rest rifle.
One nice thing about the 88, if you're a lefty the safety can be easily changed.
I use both for hunting and reload for both, you can't go wrong with either.

Unless it's some sort of gee-whiz antique where you want to preserve the markings or an octagon barrel, it'll be cheaper to rebarrel than to rebore.

Did anyone mention the triggers yet? 99's have good triggers that can be tuned to a nice crisp pull by any competent gunsmith, 88 triggers are mush and can't easily be improved. Pre-mil 99F's are drilled and tapped and are hard to beat as far as handling goes, also, mine have been accurate.

Winchester 88's are like carrying a 2x4 compared to a savage 99 ! Don

Really? how much is a new barrel in 358?

Rebore is $225.

I'd love to know this too....!!

I don't know about the web, but there is a book by Doug Murray titled "The Ninety-Nine" that is a history of the Savage 99. It is a great book.

+1 on Don's book selection!

here

My brother has a .308 in the 88 and really likes it. I have owned a couple 99EG's in .300 Savage. It is a great caliber and both guns were surprisingly accurate with favored loads.

A 99F or R in .300 is on my to-do list. A .358 would be pretty nifty, too.

Prices on the 99 are alot higher than they were 5 years ago, but the prices on the 88 are unreal. 99 wins and not only on value for the dollar.

I own and enjoy both. That said I would not strongly recommend one over the other counselling instead to buy the one that appeals to your eye and wallet.

I need the contact info on that one! That is the cheapest I've seen it.

http://35caliber.com/
Jesse Ocumpaugh, he does nice work. Last I talked to him a few months ago, it was still $225 for boring job, and that includes return shipping back to you. He has done work for me before, and now I'm just about to send off a 7600 to become a 358.

Actually, it is quite a bit less expensive to rebore and rechamber, than it is to rebarrel.

Ted

OOPS, see someone else has already brought this to your attention.

Probably be easier & cheaper to rebore a 88 than a 99, if you have to get a different spool for a 99. Tried to feed .358 in my 99 in .308 and it would not work with more than 2 rounds.

I remember reading one of Jack O'Conners books awhile back
and he describes the Winchester M88 as a Savage 99 that
had been scared by a Winchester M70.

I have both and like both. I think 88's are more accurate on average than 99s, but nothing that would matter in the deer woods.....

Something to think about for sure if I'm going to round-about my way to a 358 lever via a 308 rebore job to save some cash.

You guys that have both the 88 and 99 make me quite jealous.

Ideally, here's what I would LOVE to have happen. Buy a 'hunting gun' 308 lever (leaning towards 88) and send it off for a rebore job into a 358 that I will use often. Nothing pretty- stricly a hunting gun without thought to future value down the road. Then take my time and find a nice 358 99 AND 358 88 "just to have" in the safe. I think that might be the goal for the next couple of years.... Gotta have something to work towards. Rifles make me happy.

I had it rebarreled, not rebored. I kept the factory .308 barrel in case I ever want to put it back. Not likely though.

You can look at examples of almost all the models at www.savagela.org in the pictures section.

You can get kind of accurate data on some characterists of the models by the chart at savage99.com - http://www.savage99.com/models.htm

The best documented area is Doug Murray's The Ninety-Nine, as stated above by others. Look on Amazon and a store by the name of Aurora Books sells it for $33'ish. 95% of the time will tell you what you have with no problem.

But the very, very best place to get accurate information on 99's is here.

Thanks for the links, the pics help a lot.

WOW, Savage 99 DL! High comb stock!! THAT'S what I want- did they make that DL in 358?

Is the DL the only model with high comb stock? That Savage99 site doesn't even mention the DL designation.

....I think I'll be ordering that book.

The 99DL did come in 358 for 5 years, and some of the later 99C's (clip model) and 99CD's (deluxe clip) came in 308 with high combs.

Here's a DL in 284 - ones in 385 would have nicer cut checkering than my impressed checkering.

Having never worked a 99, to unload the gun (with internal rotary) do you have to cycle all the rounds through the action to eject each one?

And did any models of the Winchester 88 come with a high-comb stock?

The rotary mag does require you to cycle the action, but you don't need to seat the bullet into the chamber. Work the bolt about halfway and it will pick up the next bullet in the mag and start feeding it, then you reverse the lever movement and it will eject. So no chance of an AD.

If you climb in and out of a truck all day, the clip is a nice feature for rapid loading/unloading.

I realize beauty is in the eye of the beholder but IMHO both of these rifles are just plain butt ugly!

SO your choices are M88=UGLY or M99=REALLY FUGLY!

the 99 would be my choice.

Both the Savage 99 and the Winchester 88 are an acquired taste. I like both rifles.

88 junk,99 good.

3 shots fired fired from a 1940 EG 300 Savage, 150 grain factory Remington core lokts, receiver sights, 75 yards.

I have four Sav Mod 99's, a .243, .250-3000, .300 Sav, and .308. I have a Win Mod 88 in .308. I like them both. I would never consider rebarreling the .308's to .358, especially the Win. To me the .308 is the perfect chambering for these rifles. But an already chopped up Mod 99 rebarreled to .284 might trip my trigger.

My advice is to save your money and spend a little more for an original .358 over spending money for the rebarrel. The difference will be obvious in just a few years.

The only downside to the Sav 99 is like eating chips, "bet you can't buy just one". The Mod 88 has a downside, too. After I got the 88, I had to have a Mod 100 auto in .308 to go with it.

These guns haven't been made for years. All are great investments. Replaced barrels hurt value. Good luck.

It's true.. spending $1000 on an original 358 will produce much better sale value than spending $800 on a gun and shipping and a rebore.

And buying a pre-1960 358 would be the best investment and provide the best looking gun, unless you're a lefty want want a brush gun.

Being left handed I have tried to like the 99 since 1975. The receiver is really long as is the lever throw. A 99 with a 22� barrel is about as long as a bolt action with a 26� barrel. Finally got a 99 in coincidentally 1999, caliber .308. Forget which model, it had a Schnabel forend. Anyway, accuracy was so-so, about like my best Marlin 30-30�s, but what I remember vividly is that it kicked me worse than I would have figured, far worse than a one pound lighter bolt rifle in the same caliber did. Unless they have a tang safety left handers still have the same issue with that safety we do with any other trigger guard mounted one � it�s very inconvenient to operate.

They are really neat looking and definitely have a certain savoir faire. I still pick them up at gunshows and try to like them but they never float my boat.

Guess that just leaves more for the rest of you.

That's what I'm not crazy about, I'm a carbine kinda guy. Long rifles just do not work well with the way we hunt, and every extra inch seems to catch on every little branch and twig in the thick woods. I'm always surprised at the difference in carrying one of my carbines with 18.5" barrel vs another gun with 22" barrel.

I'd love to have some 99's just to own them, but for hunting uses I think I'm leaning towards a beater 88 308 with a bore job and cut/crown at 18.5". I would not be concerned with future value of a gun like that- it would be simply a tool modified for my personal use.
The removable mag is a factor as we sometimes are in/out of trucks several times a day during the later part of the season.

That said, I still want to own a 99 358. I may not hunt with it, but I want one.

Hmmm...I dunno. Just laid my M99 (24" bbl) up next to a 270 M70FWT (22" bbl) and the 99 is only about 1" longer.

The 99 and 88 or both great deer rifles but i have never owned a 99 that was as accurate as the 88 which will out shoot a bunch of bolt guns. I would buy which ever feel the best in my hand.

Savage 1920, Savage 250-3000 with 22" barrel, Savage 99T with 22" barrel but 1" missing on the stock, then a Savage 11 with 24" barrel.

Can't see where the 99's are a LONG rifle compared to a bolt action with 2" more barrel???

My 99A has the 20 inch tube in 308 Win. The perfect size for a lever gun in my opinion.

Now that I've been quoted I can't edit so will have to correct a poor choice of words - to me they feel as long as a much longer bolt action.

I have had 5+ 99's & still have a 88. Like them all but would avoid a 99R. They hold really well but are just heavy. My pick to buy would be a 1957 99f in 308.

No love for a Sako Finnwolf?

R.

I have only seen a few on online auctions and the prices are definately collectors rates many times the other two rifles.

Yup, they are pricey. I just thought it was worth a mention. I have a 99, and have held a few 88's, and like them both. The 99 does reek of class though. The only Finnwolf I put my paws on, absolutly stunk of class! Very nice rifle.

R.

From what I've read, Finnwolf is notably heavier than the 88 or 99. True?

I'd love a Finnwolf, but the ARE pricey! God forbid you loose the magazine.... As I read somewhere trying to find an extra Finnwolf mag "is as rare as trying to find teradactyl eggs". Probably more expensive too.

As a teen in the 50's, I drooled over the Winchester Model 88. Several years ago I picked up a Savage 99 in 300 Savage and I learned the meaning of love. The 99 is a really fine rifle, but either will do the job

Nice group, but that still does not change my feelings, accuracy wise.

My 88 will shoot even better than that BTW........grins

A few years back there was a company that rebarreled
Winchester M88s to different calibers, I believe they
were called Rogue River.

And they could put them in a fiberglass stock, IIRC.

MPI makes stocks for 99s.

I have both the Savage 99 and Winchester 88. I like them both but the Winchester gets the nod when I take one hunting. I bought the 88 years ago to have re bored to 338-08. It has a ring in the barrel near the muzzle and I thought it would be a perfect rifle to shorten and re bore. I made the mistake of shooting it first and it is still a 308 Winchester. You just don't mess with an accurate rifle.

Savage 99F in 358 going for $1k with 90 min to go:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=203938705

and 88's.

Bruce

Thats the post-1960 rifle. You don't want one of them....any more than you want an 88.
If I had to have a 358...I'd be on the phone w/Melvin Forbes.

I have 4 Model 99's. .243, .308, .250-3000, and .300 Savage. Never shot a Model 88. I don't know, something about a 99 in .250 or .300 just says "whitetail hunting" to me.

Kev

Those are the four 99's that I have. My .308 gets the whitetail hunting. I just picked up a Win Mod 88 and Mod 100 (auto), both in .308, but I haven't shot them yet. Keep your eyes out for a .358 or even a .284 in the Sav or Win. They seem to be the holy grail. Good luck.

Given equal opportunity, one piece stock designs tend to outshoot 2 piece stock designs. Hopefully, that neeedn't any further explanation......

Any consideration for the browning BLR which comes in a wide variety of calibers and variations? I'm pretty sure they come in 358.

They do indeed come in 358, and with a choice of straight stock or pistol grip. Drop out mag too.
I've looked them a long time as well. But I just dislike hammers on levers (for me). Especially with mounted optics.

I have a couple Ruger 96/44's (no hammer) and LOVE them, that's what got me into levers in the first place.
And then that's what led me to finding the Win 88 and Savage 99, classic rifles. The BLR is nice, and a 358 BLR will someday occupy a slot in my safe, but I think a more classic gun will be there first.

Went to gun show after work on Friday, and walking around I spotted it, there it was... a very nice condition Savage 99F 358! Talked with the seller a bit and got to a nice ballpark price to work with. Problem was I didn't really plan on buying anything and didn't have cash with me. So I figured I would go to the bank in the morning and come back again for another look.

Saturday morning I roll in there with cash in hand, and sure enough, IT WAS GONE. Sold. I smiled at the seller and said, Oh well, it's a relief it sold so I don't have to worry about buying it..". That's when he mentioned that he's considering selling his personal 99F 358 that is in as good shape, if not better, than the one that sold. Great, now I have to worry about getting that one. We shall see it next week.

But having cash in hand burning a hole in my pocket, I roamed around and looked at some other things that caught my eye. Came to a table that had a beautiful 1959 Win 88 308 that showed very little wear or use. Talked with the seller for a while and came to a nice deal that I couldn't turn down. So now I have my first Win 88! Next up is that Savage 99F...

But for now I'm happy to tinker with this:









Took it allllll apart for thorough cleaning, showed very little wear on the mechanisms and even still had some of the factory cosmoline on some parts. This being the first 88 that I've tinkered with, I learned a lot.

What a b!itch that is to get that mechanism back together having never done it before.

I've not owned an 88 but would be willing to give one a whirl. You did much better going with the 308 over the 358.

I prefer the savage 1899-99 over the winchester 88 !!

WOW, that's a lota 99s!!!

I will take one is .303 Savage and in .300 Savage!!!

I really don't sell much of anything,i still have guns i got 45 years ago. Don

That 88 is a clean looking rifle. Nice find.

Loggah, the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem.

Nice bunch of iron you have there sir!


PS: The 88 is a great gun BTW, but the action cycle can be a little rough. Always found first round accuracy quite good but they will heat up and wander at the range. Hunter's tool they are...in my opinion.

The 358 is still on the menu for sure at some point, just didn't think I could go wrong with a dandy condition pre-64 308. Price-wise, the 88's in 358 are crazy. Guy at the show had a beat up one with a tag of $3195 on it.

The 88's action smoothed out noticably after a complete disassembly and cleaning. I don't think many people take them fully apart because of what a pain it can be to get them all back together.

Loggah- beautiful collection of classics! There was a table at the show where the guy was selling only 99's. Had about 20 of them up for sale.

......maybe next week I'll have my first (in 358 )

I would be very carful re-boring any M-99 308 barrel to 358. A great deal of the 99 in 308 have very small dia. at the muzzle about .57 to .58. If you take .57 less barrel dia. of .308 divided by 2 leaves about .131 wall thickness. If you take .57 and bore it out to .358, it leaves .108 wall. The models R, EG and �Brush-Gun� I think have much heaver than any others. The big advantage to spending the money, and have a new barrel is you can always go back to 308 if you want. I had 99-F pre MIL re-barreled with .650 at the muzzle (22" heavy sporter). Yes it will add weight, about one pound, but that is about what R is with 24" barrel. You will also have to find a .358 carrier or rotary assy. They are less than twenty dollars, and can be found.

I my option a .358 is a poor choice unless you re-load. But is a great caliber if you reload. It is not hard to load 225 gr bullets at near 2550 fps. I know a ballistic tech that works for a major bullet mfg that has pushed 225 gr in M-77 Ruger to 2671 fps without any pressure signs. At 2671 fps is pushing 35 Whelen and better than 350 Mag. Now with that said, I would even think about going any were near that my M-99.

Wouldn't think about doing that with a M77 either. SAAMI spec for the .358 is 52K CUP...That's likely running up near 60K PSI or a bit better. I like the cartridge a lot but it's a hot head near top loads.

That pic is how my wife sees me.

I see myself as a young Sean Connery James Bond.

Dan,
Pretty much sums up my experience. I have a '57 88 in .308 that Winchester housed in a beautiful piece of wood. It's taken a number of game animals: deer, moose, elk, hogs. At the range, once it's warmed up it wanders around, and if you take it seriously you can waste a bunch of ammo chasing the point of impact all over the place. I've learned that a three-shot group is maximum, and then I have to REALLY let the barrel cool to check the poi again.
I love the gun. It comes to the shoulder quickly and points well. Makes a great woods gun. Replacement magazines can be purchased, too, but other parts can be difficult to find.

I have both. The cool factor champion is the 99.