John, do you or anybody else know on any rifle scope service shops know how to make a friction adjustment Leupold hold zero? I have 3 m-8 4x scopes, and every one of them will move bullet impact a LOT more than the scope I replace them with. I have sent them back to the factory so many times, we are on a first name basis( although the name they probably use for me is not too complementary, by now!) The optics are fine and I only ask that they work on a 358 BLR, which is not in the "bazooka" catagory. At first I blamed the friction adjustments, but I think the erector springs may be the culprit. I really hate to relegate thesr scopes to .22 rimfire status. I can't be the only one with this problem and it may have been covered previously, but I am a newby here.( You guys were just having too much fur) Thanks, Murf

murf: Welcome to the CF!

As to your problem, I can understand having problems with one scope....but all three? After warranty work?

I have owned oodles of them, hunted continent wide with them. They rank at the top in terms of holding zero through thousands of rounds for me,and general ruggedness;frequently staying in zero for years....think I'd look somewhere else for the problem but others may have other thoughts.

That was my thought exactly.

Yeah, I was wondering about 3 of them too, but I've got a Kahles 3x9 that is my test mule scope and the wild groups and fliers dissappear when I take the Leupolds off and put the Kahles on. Every time I've sent a Leupold back to the factory, they replace the erector spring. Maybe a stiffer spring would work? One was on a 308 model 7 Rem, one went on a 700 30-06, and one on a 358 blr. None of these rifles should be that hard on a scope, and I did not shoot just a couple of groups, but gave the scope several different loads to prove(disprove) it's self. BTW, I'm no benchrest pro, but after a zillion rounds in 51 yrs of reloading and shooting,when I pull one, I know I pulled it off target, and do not blame gun or scope. There is probably more experience on this site than any other, and some of the nicest people anywhere, so I'm confident. As the show x-files, used t say--"the truth is out there" Murf205

Well, if the Kahles is working in the same rings, everything the same, sounds like the Leupold's just don't work. I wonder whether you should request they put new elevation and windage adjustments on each M8?

Yeah, I've had very few problems with fixed-power Leupolds over the years, including the friction-adjustment models, the reason I have so many on my hunting rifles. The adjustments may not be the most precise, but once sighted-in they stay sighted-in.

One other possibility is torquing the ring screws a little too much. Leupolds are lightweight scopes with thin tubes, and a little too much torque can cause all sorts of weird problems. I've seen this a number of times.

I'm not sure, but are you saying the adjustments don't move precisely when zeroing the rifle, or are you saying once zeroed, they don't stay put ? E

Wonder if the OP is getting parallax issues with the Leupolds?

Just a thought.....

And a GOOD thought!

Checking scopes for parallax at various ranges will sometimes make a guy wonder if he wouldn't be better off with a Lyman 48.

Fred

Have you checked the base screws, ring screws, etc? I am assuming so.

The second thing is that you are dealing with 4x scopes, then shooting your good groups with a 3-9x. What power are you shooting the Kahles on?

My guess is that your eyes are not focusing as well as you get older, the Leupies may not be as easily focused to your eyes, and the lack of focus and resultant parallax is making you shoot mushy groups rather than having mushy scopes. It is happening to me, albeit I hope very slowly.

Fred I think you and Dakota Deer are gettin' hot here!

Might be older eyes.... I can still hit with my 4X Leups just fine, but I do enjoy the view through a kahles a lot better!

Bob
I was at the range in the last few days and had a serious awakening. I like my fixed 4 power scopes, but it's just not fun to try to shoot groups at 300 yards with them to determine a drop chart and group size at that range.
I am thinking I might have to go back to what I started with, a variable that I can crank up at the range.
Sounds like you have found the Kahles to be the solution?

Fred

Fred,

Have you experimented with different targets to better suit the magnification/reticle combination you like to hunt with?

m

I would go with a non-adjustable scope base (Leupold dual dove tail), if you haven't already. If you are using the windage adjustable bases, they are the weak link in any aiming system. You can also send your scope to Leupold and have them install low mount turrets on your scopes. They have the click adjustments. Doing both (dual dove tail bases and turret adjustments by Leupold) completely fixed all "wondering" issues with my scopes.

I would also check the forend of your BLR for any points in the stock that might be pushing hard against the stock. Wooden stocks swell and shrink day and night with temperature and humidity changes. It doesn't take much movement to "shift" your point of impact. I would look somewhere else besides your scopes. Flinch

Mathman
I have and have had good success with that. I am getting old and lazy and it seems to more of a PIA to have one target for my 4X, another for my 6X with heavy duplex and another for my 6x with B&C reticle. I know, I know, saying that will get me kicked out of the gun loony bin, but it's the sad facts.

Fred

I am shooting the Kales on 8x but the target I use for the 4x Lupy has a larger aiming point so that the sight pic is the same. I've got that part covered, now if I can just fix the "older eyes", I would gladly trade the scopes away for the lyman 48! I gotta give credit to the 4x Lups, the sight pic is crisp and clear. Mule Deer may be on to something with the too tight ring screws. I think I will re-mount one and see. I need to wait till early morning to do my shooting, cause here in central Alabama it's about 99 degrees during the day. Takes forever to get a barrel cool unless you quench with a cool pack. Gotta keep reminding myself it's spring, instead of summer!! Murf

Murf,

One reason I mention the ring screws is that one guy I know was continually complaining about all the Leupolds he got that were "bad out of the box," because they would never hold zero, and often the groups would be erratic in size.

Then one day I discovered that he tightened ring screws like lug nuts. I loosened then ring screw on the 2.5-8x VX-III on the rifle, then re-tightened them properly, and the scope started behaving perfectly.

Rings on ANY scope (and Leupolds in particular) shouldn;t tightened much more than 20 inch-pounds. If you don't have a torque-wrench, this can be approximated by holding the screwdriver with ONLY the thumb and first two fingers of your hand.

Unless you have the grip of Hercules, this method won't exceed 20 inch-pounds.

Fred, no I have had some Kahles but once I got the Schmidt I decided to just go with that. I have two variable left; a 2.5-8 Leup, and the Summit.The rest are 3, 4, and 6X leupolds.

I have been shooting 300-400 yards with 4X for so long it ispretty much second nature.

No, I do'nt have a torque wrench that will do inch lbs, but i'll bet that I could buy one for a heckuva lot less than 3 new scopes. My first experience with fixed Leupolds was on a Ruger .270 form about 1975. It had a fixed 4x and shot 150 Noslers into about 1". I wagged that combination all over this country in a short w.b chevy that would jar your fillings loose. In 15 yrs, I never had to re-zero that rifle!! I watched from the window of the plane as a baggage ape put it on the conveyor belt crooked and it fell off from 15 or so ft and cracked my hard case. When the plane landed in Kalispel, I took it to my friends home and it was still 2" high and dead center. So I am kinda hooked on the reliability of the old fixed 4 Leupold, and I believe I will get this sorted out. Lots of good suggestions on this site. thanks Murf

It seems that I read it here, and is what I do, FWIW:

Mounting scopes in Talleys, hold the long handle of the included wrench to torque the bases and the short end to torque the rings. That approximates the correct torques? Thoughts?

ironbender,

Yep, those are the instructions with the Talley rings. I have checked them out with a good Brownells torque wrench, and the little Talley Torx wrench works fine.

Ironbender, that approximates what John was saying, I think I will re -mount one without squeezing the blood out of it. I wanted to zero 2 of them for the BLR 358 for my trip to Kenai. I have never had a scope die on a hunting trip before---but my name is, after all, Murphy! (I wish they had named that law after Jones or Smith!) Murf

This part got my attention.

You do realize that the hash marks on most m8 scopes are NOT 1/4 moa? right?

From what I recall, they are 1 moa between each hashmark ,so YES they are a much "coarser" adjustment than most any new scopes.

Doh! That's where I read it.

When is that?

Fred maybe did not answer you completely....the Kahles is a great scope,and comparing optics (for my eyes)I was hard pressed to choose between the optics of those and the Swaro PH, Summit scopes that we had the few times we compared all three....I like the Kahles a lot, but the Summit mounted up better for me on the rifle I wanted to use it on.

Just as a suggestion with your 4X for your range testing......shoot a 10" black bull at 300 yards, and put a 3" flouescent orange dot in the center for contrast; you will find this is just about blotted out by the reticle,and will help you hold more precisely.

I have shot some teeny 300 yard groups doing this with a 4X.

Jim, I probably should have stated that another way. What is happening is that with the 4x scopes, I am having fliers that I do not "call" out of the group. Sometimes these shots are 4 or 5 inches away from the others. Then the subsequent shots will go into a group where the flier shot. After a few more rounds, it will pitch another flier, and the same thing happens all over again, all without moving the adjustments! Kinda expensive when you are tring to zero a rifle with Triple-Shocks, or Noslers. But you are correct, the 4x Lupys do indeed have very coarse adjustments. thanks, Murf

Hmmm...it's sounding less like a moving erector spring to me. I don't see how the erector could mess up by that much for one shot, then pop right back into place for succeeding shots.

Which is why I'm suspecting over-torquing of the ring screws. I've seen similar symptoms from Leupolds with the ring screws torqued "farmer tight."

I agree.

The other reason I suspect over-torquing is that it keeps happening, with multiple scopes, even after sending them back to Leupold.

Are all your cases the same head stamp/brand name? It sounds like you are mixing head stamps on your ammo more than anything. 4 inch fliers aren't a scope issue, unless they wander all over the place all the time.

I have seen guys mix head stamps MANY times. I have accidentally done it myself and wondered why I got an extreme flier.

Whenever you get a flier, check the case completely (trim length, flash hole issue, lopsided neck etc.). Keep track of that case and either pitch it or load it again and see if it "flies" another one.

My dad and I were shooting a .30-30 contender a couple of weeks ago. His groups at 75 yards were about 5 inches. I told him he has to keep his head stamps separate if he wants to hit anything. He basically said, "B.S.". I wanted to prove my point, so I segregated out the Winchester, Remington and Federal brass (all loaded the same). I proceeded to shoot 3 separate 3 shot groups (one with each head stamp) at the same target. I had 3 neat little 3/4" individual groups. The 3 groups combined measured just under 5" total outside to outside at 75 yards. My dad is a believer now. I have seen factory ammo vary over a foot at 100 yards with the same bullet and weight, just different headstamps. Flinch

Another thing to check if you are using the Redfield style of scope ring bases are the screws that hold the rear ring by clamping it to the base between them. I had several bases that the screws were too long and bottomed out inside the base before really tightening the ring down allowing the rear ring to shift randomly around causing fliers. Take the ring off and tighten the screws until they bottom and measure across the screw heads then install the ring and measure again. Should be a bigger measurement when the ring is installed if the screws are the correct length. Caused me no end of problems until I found the issue.