With the news that Marlin was doing something with it's levergun plant (we can just leave it at that...) I decided that this was the perfect excuse to purchase a new gun - a Marlin Guide Gun. This is the standard, non-ported, blued model. It should be at my dealer's on Tuesday.

I have some loads that I use for plinking/target shooting in my other Marlin, a Davidson's 24" LTD and I have some factory equivalent loads made up as well using Remington 300gr HP's going about 1800fps.

I've heard the load of 405 cast with 45 Grains of IMR 3031 mentioned several times - about 1500fps.


So, what do you guys use in your Guide Guns? And while you're at it, what do you hunt with yours? How about sighting? Irons or glass?

And I'm thinking about getting a replacement magazine tube and installing it - to fit to the end of the barrel to allow for another round or two... anybody do that? I notice that the new SBL models have a full-length tube...

I shoot 31 grains of IMR-4198 under a Georgia Arms 405 grain hard cast bullet. I also have a Lee 405HB .459 mold but I haven't tried it yet. For factory ammo, I prefer the Remington 405 grain loading. I also have a 1974 and a 1992 vintage 1895 with the 22" barrel. I use Starline brass because it's the cheapest by far.

Well, my go to load for hunting, with my GG is H4198 and 300 gr. nosler partition to about 1950 fps. I've had the gun since about 2003. It's ported. I have a 1-4x leupie heavy duplex shotgun scope on board. I've killed bear, wild hogs, and took it to RSA in 2008 for my plains game safari. Here is a few pics.














There's more, but you get the idea. The 45-70 guide gun is one of my favorite hunting weapons.


maddog

Use 36 grains of 3031 and the 405 cast bullet for about 1300fps. Tack driving accurate, low recoil, and will knock the socks off of anything in North America, including the big bears. Install a ladder rear barrel sight and learn how to use it, and elk at 400 yards becomes a gimme.

Disclamer: I don't have a Guide Gun. I DO have a 45-70 Marlin Cowboy, and it is the Real Deal.

Mine is a ported model with micro-groove rifling and sits under a VX-II 1-4X20. I bought it second hand several years back in a pawn shop at a fair price just for something to tinker around with. I shot some 405 Remington core-lokts thru it right after I bought it and they did OK. Nothing to write home about. My brothers and I booked a bear hunt in Maine so I decided to wipe the dust off the Marlin and take it. I tried making up some Hornady 350 grain interlocks with IMR 4198. I settled in on 45 grains with Remington brass and primer. I can almost get 3 shots to touch at 100 yards with this combination. I haven't chrono'd it but I'm about 11" low at 200 yards. FWIW... Rob

Thanks guys! Looks like everybody likes theirs!

Maddog! You've been busy with your Marlin! I guess there's no real need for anything over 300 grains if a premium bullet is used... great pics!

And Swampman - I've seen that pic somewhere before... hmm

Another question: How do you like the stock recoil pad? People seem to be happy with them...

I run one with a Leupold 2.5X scout scope pushing 405 grain slugs out at 1,750 fps with 55 grains of H4895. That load does get ones attention. I'm fond of the scout scope because it's well away from the action area. One can manipulate the hammer etc with boxing gloves on. I do not care for unsightly doglegs affixed to ones hammer. It's an easy carry and quick pointer.

Given the low power scope, it's about a 1.5 moa unit at 100 yds. I think it would tighten up a bit with either a higher power scope or a target that fit that specific scope.

If I had a do over, I would go with a stainless model simply because I or it might tolerate a bit in the way of nasty weather without some attention. Primary use = a dark timber elk rifle and perhaps moose if I get up north again. Also the obvious choice if I were to go on a bison shoot. No desire for ports as they catch snow, ice, twigs, etc and are quite loud if one is around any type of structure like trees or rimrock.

I'm pretty sure none of the Guide Guns had Micro-Groove rifling.

I find the stock recoil pad to be fine, but I'd consider adding a better one (LimbSaver) if it would fit without grinding and not increase the length of pull.

I run the 405 hard cast with 3031. Can't remember the powder weight, but it make my ears ring, shoulder hurt, and nose run when I light it off. But I don't have to track critters.

rldr 7 and 405's for my s.s. g.g. !

I like my GG. Have taken many deer with it. Carried it elk hunting but didn't connect. Here are some favorite loads from mild to wild:

405gr cast, 11gr Unique, around 1000fps.
400gr Speer FP, 41gr Re7, around 1400 fps.
300gr Speer Uni-Cor, 45gr H4198, around 1900 fps.
350gr Hornady RN, 55gr H322, around 2000 fps, MARLIN AND RUGER #1 ONLY!

A common name for the stock Marlin recoil pad among Marlin aficionados is "brick." It is not very soft, but it does help some. It is much better than the hard, semi-cresent buttplates on the 1895s made in the '70s.

My GG has a pachmyer deceleratore recoil pad mounted on it.


maddog

+1 for Reloader 7 with a 405 grain bullet! My ported GG will shoot sub MOA groups with the Remingotn 405 gr pill and the Beartooth Bullets 425 "Piledriver Jr" slug as well......

I've shot most commonly available bullets and used several different powders. Worked on targets from 100yds to 300yds.

The Hornady 325gr gummy-tipped bullets are very accurate and shoot flatter than most others. They do require shortened cases to cycle through a Marlin lever action.

My favorite load shoots consistently into < 1" @ 100yd. Its is the 300gr Barnes TXS-FN bullet loaded over 48.0gr H4198. Velocity is 2,040 ft/sec on my Oehler 35P. Bullets expand to nearly double diameter and retained about 98% of their weight after slamming into the dirt and rock berm. Even the bullets that hit large rocks directly remained intact and weighed about 295gr.

I used a Leupold 1x5 illuminated scope on a Marlin 1895SBL and shot from sandbags off of a concrete bench.

I have the blued, non-ported model, added a set of XS sights. Also replaced the stock recoil pad with a Decelerator (w/ the basket weave texture).

Very accurate, just like the others here.

I now use RL-7 with all my loads from a 300 grain Nosler Partition at 2300 fps/350 North Fork at 2100+ fps/420 Cast at 1850 fps and the 525 grain Cast at 1550 fps with other brands in between.

I have two Guide Guns,one ported and the other not..Can't tell much of a difference between the two in noise or recoil.

Jayco

I love mine, easy swinging and very accurate.

42grs RL7 + 405 Rem
47grs RL7 + 350gr Hornady RN
59.0grs H4895 + 350gr Hornady FP or RN - 1922fps - 1"-1.5" @ 100yds

Great plinker or light deer load

25.0grs Alliant 2400 + 405gr Cast - 1300-1400fps. Here's 5 shots at 50yds

I use 51 grn Re7 with 300 grn Speer UniCors, and get right at 2000 fps. I too get about 1.5" groups at 100 yards.

With heavier loads the recoil does get noticeable, but what bothers me is the muzzle jump. It's hard to keep the scope out of my face with max loads, but not so much a problem with open sights.

I've never had any luck getting an accurate load using cast bullets, but maybe I just never tried hard enough.

Try 46 grains of RL-7 with a 420 cast in Starline brass..In a Guide Gun you should be right at 1850 fps/right at 35K with 1" or better at 100 yards.Use the Lee Crimp die..

Jayco

Cast bullets are not all the same..You want a minimum of .459 diameter with .460 usually being a better, more accurate choice although my Guide Guns shoot the .459 as well as the .460's so I mostly use the .459's because a have a BFR in 45-70 with much closer tolerances.

Jayco

Like McInnis, my feeble attempts at cast loading have been not great. I Use RL7, Starline brass and the Lee crimp die. I think the bullets I tried were the Oregon Trail 405gr cast.

Is gas checked or not a concern? Any other thoughts?

That's what the ports on the originals were for.

The rule of thumb is over 15-1600 fps,Use a gas checked cast bullet....Your rifle may benefit by bullets sized to .460 rather than .458/.459 that most retail bullets are.

Try some Beartooth Cast bullets sized to .460 and I think you will find how accurate a cast bullet can be.I prefer the 425 grain over the 405,but the 405 is plenty.Marshal Stanton cast, arguably the best cast bullet a non caster can buy.It takes some time to get his bullets because they are that good.

Jayco

Lots of good info - thanks guys!

I have an XS sight set coming. To me, this short carbine begs for that setup. But maybe a scope - I've got a Luepold 2x7 that's currently not attached to anything and a mount/rings...

I have some plinking rounds and some hunting rounds to test it with this coming week after it arrives.

Plinking loads are 405 Grain Laser Casts with 28 grains XMP5744 - 1370 fps.

Hunting loads are 300 grain Rem HP's and IMR3031 I think - 1850 fps.

Cast bullets and Red Dot.

Dang Jayco, you do like the stout loads. But I know you are a judicious handloader and I would not hesitate to shoot your ammo (in your gun ). I haven't had much occasion to shoot the heavy loads, but it's nice to know my Marlin has reserve power if/when I need it. That's a really great thing about the Marlin 1895 rifles and 45-70 caliber. You don't really need to drive those big slugs hard to put out some serious hurt, but it is there if you need it. One article written by Brian [forgot last name] in Rifle magazine tells of killing a cape buffalo with one shot from his 45-70 and shooting completely through and accidentally killing a second buff behind the first one with one bullet. His ammo was loaded to just 35kPSI which is well within the safety margin of the Marlin 1895. What would have killed these animals any deader?

As Jayco stated, Marshall Stanton of Beartooth Bullets casts bullets as good as you will find anywhere. I believe he casts to order so you might wait a few days. He is also a good Christian man of high moral character.

It's up for sale in the classifieds. Manuf 1991.

Alan

Not really that stout,Dave..I have been lucky enough to know two people who have pressure equipment for the 45-70 and were kind and curious enough to run a couple loads I was curious about and use..Most powders give out close to the same velocity/pressure but there are two standouts...RL-7 and AA-2230.In the old Alliant reloading guide on the net,AA-2230 gave 2243 fps with a 350 Speer out of a 450 Marlin at 39,900 PSI.Thats close to(67 fps) Max Ruger #1 loads for the 45-70 out of Hodgdons.

As you know Big Redhead,Randy Garretts 45-70 ammunition was one of the only other(not SAAMI specs) ammunitions accepted by the old Marlin Firearms.His ammo and velocities were barely over the 28,000 SAAMI and very acceptable for the modern Marlin.

Jayco

Guys: The August 2007 Handloader has pages and pages of pressure tested 45-70 loads published with a variety of slugs and powders all tested specifically for Marlins.

There's more 45-70 data there than I've seen under any other cover. I have a copy and a friend recently sent them $10 and had a copy in a week.

Isn't that the one from Brian Pierce without actual pressures and he ads CUP in place of PSI in other words,he list these loads do not exceed 43,500 CUP and without pressures...

Not knocking Brian but CUP and PSI are not quite the same at that level and I have never/ever seen load data for the modern Marlin 45-70 that exceeds 40,000 CUP.If there is some out there,please show me....

Jayco

430 Gn True Shot gas check bullett and H332 shoot to about an inch for me.

Don't have it in hand at the moment, as I am not at home, and I will not argue CUP vs PSI. If Handloader saw fit to publish it, I'll accept the data.

No problem 1minute.

It really doesn't matter as Marlin,atleast then,does not support reloading at any pressure...

The fact is with the Marlin '95 action,people like Wild West Guns take that very action and alter it for "length only" not beefing up or altering the action itself for strength,and call it the 457 Wild West Magnum with reloading data to 45,000 CUP.Hodgdons also supports it with data...

So,yes..Carefully reloaded it can take more than published Max 40,000 CUP data buttttttttttt......

I was just referring to Brians data in CUP as there in absolutely no modern 45-70 leveraction pressure checked data available to 43,500 CUP.

Jayco

If my numbers are correct (and with the state of my brain right now after five straight days of reality show filming), we have converted over 2800 Marlins (and some 71s and 86s) to the 457 with great sucess.

I personally am a 50 Alaskan guy, I think it kicks less. I am waaaay too Metro for heavy recoil.

WildwhatdayisittodayAlaska ��2002-2011

Its Brian Pearce (sp) and he specifically notes that CUP and PSI are NOT the same "Pressures that reference "CUP" and "psi" are not the same, but in regards to the .45-70 cartridge, they are essentially the same." This is after a lengthy explanaition of just what the 1895 in this chambering can handle and why. I was just re-reading this article last night. I keep all of my back issues of Rifle and Handloader.

And he does say on the same page (page 62, first paragraph - Handloader 248, August 2007) that "Some limit it to 28,000 CUP, others suggest 35,000, while still others list loads that reach 43,500 CUP."

You are critisizing that statement as erroneous. I doubt that he would write that if he didn't have knowledge of specific manuals. Can you honestly say there aren't manuals that are listing that data? Do you know this for sure? I would check my manuals but they are all packed up for a move...

Perhaps JB or another member here can look at some of their manuals and solve this "mystery"?

I've read enough of Brian's articles and tested the results myself to have gained some respect for what he writes.

You seem to be suggesting that he was just "running his mouth" so to speak?

I don't think so.

On another note: Well, I installed the XS sights on my guide gun. After doing this, it became very apparent that the barrel is tilted slightly to the right... further, when I look into the receiver, the cut-out for the extractor on the chamber head shows approximately the same amount of indexing error - in other words, it could be moved "left" about the amount needed to straighten things out on the sights and it would line-up perfectly with the cut-out on the reciever.

The question is, if I rotate it (I have a barrel vice) would this put the headspace off... Hmm.

I know this is more of a gunsmithing question...

I don't think it would hurt to try - rotate the barrel the tad that it needs and then check the headspace...

I can always just send it back to Marlin for adjustment.

I am not suggesting anything OSOK..The 450 Marlin has a SAAMI of 43,500 PSI and we don't have to go there..With Dentons PSI/CUP formula 40,000 CUP is 42,740 PSI.Go figure...

My point is,not suggesting anything.Show me any pressure checked data for the modern 45-70 to 43,500 CUP...You can't because it is not there only from Handloader magazine and Brian Pierce "without" pressures...

None of the major or any reloading manuals take the modern Marlin 45-70 past 40,000 CUP but they do take the 450 Marlin to 43,500 PSI/not CUP...There not the same,close but not the same.

Jayco

Took another look at the guide guns's barrel situation. There's a problem with just turning the barrel - the magazine tube is screwed into a dovetail mount that would also rotate and guess what? Yep, it's straight, so that won't work..

So, I called Marlin and they said "send it in...".

So, I'm sending it in.