Does anyone use the old way to bore sight their rifles after mounting a scope?

I still do often if I am working on the gun during daylight hours. I actually get closer on average than with using my optical boresighter.

If you mean removing bolt and sighting down bore to target, and adjusting scope to target, I do.
Have never not got on paper at 100 yds, that I can recall.

Yep. Use too many different calibers to buy all of the contraptions..

I also do it, but when I do it is at 25 yds..don't get good results at 100.

Nope, it is a wast of time for me. I just fire one offhand at 25 yards, adjust it so it is shooting a little low at that range and then step back to 100 yards. I can usually have a rifle dialed in with about 4 shots.

Boresighters get you on the paper most of the time. Here's how my friends 338 win mag did after bore sighting from the store that installed his scope. The first shot was way low and to the left. With my method I mentioned in the last post I can generally get closer than this:


With this ruger M77 MKII 338 win mag I had the poi where he wanted it after the second adjustment.

I used-to. Even went so far some times with a big-bore rifle as to use an empty, unprimed case in the chamber.

Peeping down the bore? That's how I've always done it. Works great.

Sure! It ain't old cause I did it recently....

I bore sight all of my rifles in this fashion. I do use scope levels when mounting them though, apparently I've got a crooked eye and a pard that loves pointing out my occasional crooked reticle......

podunk ain't those reticles a bugger?

I just did it yesterday.

My pards got the best eye for straight I've ever seen, and the bastid relishes calling me on em..... since I bought the leveling kit no more crooked reticles though.

Never used a bore sight, never will.

Same with all the OAL contraptions that are out there. I don't need another 47 pieces of junk to keep taps of.

To adjust a 'scope so that you know that the vertical cross-hair is truly plumb �
� clamp the barreled action in a swiveling vise, aimed at a white plumb line in the yard
� level the receiver cross-wise with a bubble level against the bottom of the receiver or the recoil lug
� swivel the vised barreled action to align the vertical cross-hair close alongside the plumb line (not right on it) and lock the vise down
� keep the vertical cross-hair parallel to the plumb line while carefully tightening the scope-ring screws

For a while, I used the vertical side of a window frame on a house up the street as my vertical reference � until lining it up beside a plumb line showed that the window frame wasn't plumb.

To keep the plumb line plumb on a windy day, hang it with the plumb bob in the middle of a bucket of water.

Yep, and if I do it that way, and tweak it IE check it 3-4 times, I'm generally always close enough to kill a deer when I fire the first shot.. Not that I'd consider that... just saying... the old coliminators just sucked for us.

I believe ill try that Mr Howell. As to the unplumb window, first thing I learned in layout was to never assume anythings plumb, straight, or square until you've personally checked it....

It works so well for me that I've never been even slightly tempted to buy a bore sighter.

In the weeks preceding deer season, our club opens our ranges for the public to check their sights (for a modest fee). Members volunteer as range officers. On more than one occasion I have helped people who came with newly-mounted, bore-sighted scopes that would not put shots on paper. They are amazed that I can pull the bolt out, sight through the bore with the rifle on sandbags, and adjust their scope so they can sight it in. Especially the generations younger than me are are conditioned to think a "higher" technology is the solution to every problem.

As president of the rod-and-gun club at the proving ground, I did pretty much the same thing.

I took my "portable shop" to the range every preseason sighting-in day and mounted and bore-sighted 'scopes without charge. What an experience that was! And how disgusting it was to learn that many "gunsmiths" had mounted 'scopes, bore-sighted 'em with collimators, and pronounced 'em "sighted-in!"

I also used a good collimator. With all the variables, I "zoomed" the magnifications up and down their full range, and discovered that an alarming number of the reticles wandered all over the place. Particularly distressing was the discovery that some cheap Japanese rip-offs with soft aluminum screws and mysterious brand names wandered less, while some renowned and respected brand-name 'scopes often wandered worst of all.

I like gadgets and use a SitLite laser boresighter along with their software that prints a sight-in target for the particular load, sight-in distance, and where I want that load to zero at. Even with less than 20 yards indoors to work in, it�s impressively accurate at placing a shot near zero at the selected range.

I bought a bore sighter some 30 years ago. Used it a lot in stockmaking when the inletting was nearly done. Today, I use it when changing scopes and usually able to get the new rifle/scope combination to shoot within 1" of the prior setting.

Many receivers are not drilled parallel and need shimming. Without the shims, who knows where they will shoot. By using the collomator, one can easily see if the scope runs out of windage when receivers are off, thus saving range time.

One thing I do before changing out a sighted-in scope is bore sight it and take notes on where the crosshairs are. Then adjust the crosshairs on the new scope to same point and they come very, very close to the desired POI. Sometimes bore sighting is dead center and correct but sometime it's not.

Ken,

It can be interesting, interacting with "the public" like that, can't it? You see some things that, if you think about them too much, you will have trouble sleeping at night. Examples:

A scope mounted at a store that was rotated 90 degrees off so the windage adjustment was on the top.

a scope mounted at a store (I am not making this up) that was mounted backwards.

The guy firing .308 cartridges in his 30-06, and saying when caught, "They're 30 caliber, aren't they"? I don't remember the rifle, but somehow the extractor must have held enough for the cartridge to fire. The brass had an interesting blown-out shape.

i too bore site all my rifles the old fashion way. one thing i have found to be true for me though in terms of Rugers is that if i optically center the scope prior to mounting it, i find that it is always within a couple inches of windage at 25 or 50 yards. then it tends to be a few inches high, i have yet to have a ruger with its factory rings not be within the target at 25 to 50 yards if the scope was optically centered prior to mounting. says a lot for the factory mounting system in my book. i wont say it will not happen differently, i'm just saying it has worked for me so far in the dozen rugers i've sited in so far.

I always and only use the old method....(don't have a laser boresighter)...

A few years ago a buddy came to shoot his recently purchased 300 RUM at my place. I have a 100 yard range set up across my front yard shooting through an open gate into a large backstop in my pasture. He was told when he purchased it that it had been sighted with a laser boresighter and the scope was set....should be ready to go.... He fired the first shot from 100 yards and we expected to need to adjust but nothing hit the target. I pulled the bolt and took a look...the scope was WAY high and WAY to the left...about 25 yards in front of us and several feet to the right of our line of sight there was a groove in the concrete across my front sidewalk.

Never trust a smith or gunshop who says it has been laser boresighted...maybe it is, but check it using the old method and fire the first shot from 25 yards...you could save a sidewalk...

I can get 100yards from my deck to the back fence line. I set therifle in a cradle, look thru the tube and pickup an electric fence insulator and get that centered. Then I adjust the scope to that point.Usually I am within 4" of dead center with the first shot at 100 yards.

I resemble that remark.

[/quote]

I always and only use the old method....(don't have a laser boresighter)...

A few years ago a buddy came to shoot his recently purchased 300 RUM at my place. I have a 100 yard range set up across my front yard shooting through an open gate into a large backstop in my pasture. He was told when he purchased it that it had been sighted with a laser boresighter and the scope was set....should be ready to go.... He fired the first shot from 100 yards and we expected to need to adjust but nothing hit the target. I pulled the bolt and took a look...the scope was WAY high and WAY to the left...about 25 yards in front of us and several feet to the right of our line of sight there was a groove in the concrete across my front sidewalk.

Never trust a smith or gunshop who says it has been laser boresighted...maybe it is, but check it using the old method and fire the first shot from 25 yards...you could save a sidewalk... [/quote]

LMAO...

Last year about this time I handled an auto claim. I seldom do auto anymore but took this one.

A guy volunteered to sight in his brother's new 300 Ultra Mag and borrowed the brother's new Toyota 4X4 PU to go up into the hills and sight the rifle in. He had to be towed back with two bullet holes across the hood. The bullets fragmented so badly they wiped out major electrical components and his injection system.

He called the insurance company's claims manager and filed a complaint after I told him a shooting rest is a helluva lot cheaper than $1,000.00 deductibles in the future.

I learned a trick many years ago for bore sighting if you are tight for room in the house or like me at the time, having your gun room in the basement with windows to high to sight out. Place a small round dot on the wall about five feet from the muzzle. Clamp the rifle in a padded vise and center the dot in the bore. Place another small dot 1.5 inches above the first dot and center the crosshairs on it. In most cases it will bring you pretty close to on at 25 yards. I used this trick many years ago and though I now have a bore sighter, I find that it doesn't get me any closer than the old method.

Like Mr. Howell, I used to work our local range's sight in days. It was a scary thing sometimes. A couple of the more notable incidents were when a fellow absolutely refused to consider shooting a few rounds at 25 yards to get on paper because, one, the store bore sighted it to be on at 100 yards and, two, he didn't intend to shoot anything that close so he wasn't going to sight in that close. He proceeded to shoot a full box of 338's at 100 yards off the bench resting on nothing other than his elbows, despite the availability of a wide assortment of shooting rests. Seems he believed since he wouldn't have any shooting rests in the field he didn't need one to sight in with. A full box of 338's later he had not a round on paper and some severely abraded elbows to show for it. He left mumbling doubts about the shops ability to bore sight a rifle.

The second was a gentleman who was talked into buying one of the portable bench gun vises that were popular twenty years ago. They were about 12 or 15 inches long and clamped on the forend of the rifle and set on the bench. I thought they were designed to be a bench vise to take with you to clean the rifle but I saw many including this fellow use them for a shooting rest. This guy, rather than hunker behind it with the rest on the bench held it up and shot off the bench on his elbows with the device clamped to the rifle. Despite some gentle coaching from myself and a couple others he insisted that the guy at the shop had assured him he should sight in using this device.

Mart

Yes, the only way I ever have.

I use this technique often. (twice today) This gets me close at 25 yards, and then I shoot at 100 yards. One rifle today was sighted in with 1 shot at 25 yards, and 1 shot at 100. My other rifle took 4 or 5 shots total.

A good while back, someone on this or a similar forum told about having been in a gun store when another customer came-in with a rifle that he hadn't been able to sight-in.

The problem, he said, was that although he'd screwed the windage screw as far as it'd go, the rifle was still shooting 'way off to the side.

"Let me see that thing," the store clerk said, and took it into the back room. When he came back, he said that he couldn't find anything wrong with the windage adjustment but had had a dickens of a time unscrewing the turret cap.

"Turret cap?"


The guy who told the story said that he had to go outside to laugh.

I switched to boresighting on as distant an object as possible. With this method rifles put the first shot within 3 inches at 100 yards and often within an inch. I.e. boresight on the top corner of a building, bridge tower, etc. from a quarter mile to three miles or more away. That lengthens the sight radius. If you center the distant pinpoint spot in the bore and keep that concentric with chamber etc. the rifle will shoot uncanny close to where the crosshairs are at 100 yards. My eyeball boresighting is way more accurate than borseighter gizmos friends have.

I also start at 25 yards. Like you, I can usually get a rifle dead-on at 100 yards in about 4 shots. My friends are usually quite amazed at that and pleased that I get their rifles shooting with so few rounds fired. I do, however, sight down the bore first and align the reticle that way before firing the first shot. I have seen more than one rifle that would have missed the paper even at 25 yards had I not visually aligned it first.

Some rifles cannot be aligned by sighting through the bore. A Browning leveraction comes to mind because taking one those apart to sight down the bore and putting it back together correctly is a challenge. With those rifles I just shoot at 25 yards. If the first round is not on paper, move up to 12 yards.

I have seen guys at the club fire box after box of ammo and still not be satisfied with the rifles zero. Sometimes they are open to receiving assistance, and sometimes not. I think it's a matter of pride more than anything.

Troy is that you???

Isn't that the truth. I agree on all accounts.

Good lawd there must be two of us....

Since I got the level level level I tell my pard to go to hell when he comments on my reticles.....

I have bore-sighted hundreds of rifle. When I first got serious about rifles I had a shop where I could put a rifle in a vise, then aim at the tip of my neighbor's roof, and come very close.

In fact I once bore-sighted a .270 of mine just before hunting season. When my father-in-law showed up unexpectedly wanting to hunt, on a day when I had to work, I handed him the rifle and box of 130-grain ammo and told him to shoot it at a box to see if it was close. Of course he didn't--but did shoot a deer and was puzzled about why I'd made the suggestion.

I find collimators (which I've used for 30+ years) very useful for a number of other tasks, including testing adjustments and how much variation from point-of-impact there might be when as variable is turned from minimum to max. Yeah, you can find that out by shooting--and burn up a bunch of ammo.

Plus, neither bores-sighting or a collimator is perfect. I have tested both on a number of sighted-in rifles, and results vary considerably, mostly due to barrel thickness and bedding of the stock's forend.

I hate to put on the loony's dunce cap but, what is a collimator and what does it do Mr Barsness?

a "boresight tool".

for many years i would sight down the bore at an object, a conifer tree top, the top of a utility pole, etc., but usually a streetlight worked best, and then i would adjust the scope accordingly. for folks who take a little time and care, it can sometimes work as well as a collimator, but pumps and levers are a problem...

i use the sweany site-a-line collimator, and there is none better. it has precise arbors for the different calibers, 22rf, 22cf, etc., all the way through to 45 cal. these arbors assure the ultimate in precision, usually resulting in first shot printing of 2 inches or less at 100 yards.

this system is available from brownells, or directly from alley supply (jet alley). this collimator was designed by jack sweany, who also had the job of boresighting the big naval guns on our ships.

the sweany site-a-line collimator has been around a long time, and it has a solid, proven track record--expensive and universally recognized as the ultimate collimator...

Mr. Howell,
I do it about like you do except I use a straight 6' long 4"X4" leaned up against my back fence instead of a plumbed line. My back fence is exactly 25 yards from my kitchen table. I do it like this:
1) level the 4x4 with a 4' level
2) tape a red ball on top of the 4x4
3) clamp my rifle in a vise and level it using a 2' level on the bottem half of the scope mount
4) lay the scope in the bottom rings and align the verticle crosshair with the 4x4
5) place the top half of the scope ring and slowly tighten the screws keeping the vertical cross hair lined up with the 4x4
6) bore sight using the red ball
I'm usually within an inch at 50 yds. I think my scopes are pretty level on the 5 rifles that I've used this method on. I'm going to the range next week to do some shooting and I'll verify the level at 100yds. I'm wondering if 100 yds is far enough.

I have used that method for well over 30 years. It works.

I know Steve Alley pretty well. He takes great pride in the quality of the product, and I don't know of another of this type that is better.

Ditto - I have never used any other method, why wouldn't you want to shoot some more ammunition now and then. I think I would hate depriving myself of the fun of "old fashioned" sight adjusting.

while i don't know steve personally, my visits with him either on the phone or by email have been great. he is a really nice fellow--and when i have spent time talking to him via phone, i learned a lot about the history and details of their product.

it's really nice to know there are guys out there who bring their products to market--and they build them with great care--wanting the very best for the consumer. steve is that kind of guy--top notch, and eagerly willing to share a wealth of information. i was particularly interested in his knowledge of the reticle history on the site-a-line, and how it ended up being built "as it is today".

if any of you out there desire to own the ultimate collimator--this one is it, and even with regular use in a busy shop, it will last 40-50 years. i once heard it said that, "all of the different companies that endeavor to build and sell their own particular type or brand of collimator--nevertheless, use the sweany site-a-line..."

It's the only way I've ever done it, always worked fine. Saves the trouble of having to shoot the pesky boresighter out of the way.

I'm a big fan of K.I.S.S. so that's the way I do it too. I've got a plumb line in my shop that just stays there all the time, even though I don't use it all that often for scopes.

It comes in handy to square golf club heads up for re-gripping as well.

I bested a personal record last night sighting-in my new Ruger M77 MkII 30-06 with Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x40: Two shots. The first shot at 25 yds was 2 inches left. I moved the windage turret the appropriate number of clicks and fired a second round at 25 yds. It landed in the bullseye about a half-inch low, so I moved to 100 yds. The first and only shot at 100 was in the center of the bull. I actually fired 3 shots but the last one required no adjustment, so the gun was actually sighted-in in 2 shots. That's my story anyway, and I'm stickin' to it. When I move to 200 yds, I suspect the first shot will be 2-3 inches low, so I'll crank it up a few clicks first.

What a great shooting rifle/scope combo! That Vari-X III provides an excellent, clear image. It is the very best scope I own. And of course, "There ain't many problems a man can't fix with seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six." and I just happen to have the $700 on me today. Life is good!

I can't imagine why anyone would not use a LaserLyte or something similar. They are cheap,just plug in the muzzle and mine came with everything necessary for most common bore sizes. I use a Cabelas made by LaserLyte here in Arizona. Has been to Africa several times and is the first thing I do in camp. Wait till dusk/dark and plug it in the muzzle and turn it on pick something about 50 yds away and lay the rifle over a chair or some rest and check the scope points to the red dot. If it does (and I have never had it not in all the times I've used it) I'm basically ready to hunt. Still check it with a couple of shots but have never had to make a scope adjustment. At home I just shine it across the room and adjust the scope to slightly high. Works for me. And it works on ANY rifle or handgun,bolt,lever,pump,auto and I use it with apeture sights the same way. Works fine. I adjusted the scope on my Merkel 8x57r double in my home and the first bullet at 25yds on the range was within 2" of the point of aim. Good enough for me.

There are a variety of reasons some don�t adopt newer technology and methods of doing things. Basically, it comes down to "if it�s not broke don�t fix it." For those who do use a laser boresighter you might as well go all the way with this free software that calculates the exact boresight solution for a given load, sight height, and zero range. Here�s an example for a .300 win mag with a 2.5 inch sight height zeroed at 125 yards.



You also specify the distance you want to boresight at, down to 8 yards, and the software prints out the needed target.



This target is for 20 yards, which I can do indoors. If you don�t have a laser boresighter, you can just look through barrel (the old way) at the target the software prints for you. Just center the laser spot circle looking through the bore and adjust the scope to line up with the printed cross hairs.

I use the SiteLite SL-100. I can add a scope to a rifle, change scopes or mounts and always get within a few clicks at the selected zero range with my first shot.

I've never had great fortune in bore sighting, whether by looking down the bore and aligning the sights, or using an optical boresighter. I've found better results shooting 1 shot from 25 yards on a large target and then adjusting to get on at 100 yards. Sure, I use 1 or 2 additional cartridges, but it works wit less frustration.

Gath, you've come up with an interesting mix of old and new. Use new fangled software to print a sight-in target for your specific gun, load, zeroed range, and the range you want to boresight at, and then peep through the bore at the spot marked for a laser.

You can print up such targets in advance and pull one out when you need to check or align your sights even if you don't have a laser boresighter.

Ya gotta have a rest to put the rifle in. I use my cheapy Outers varmint rest. Align the bore, look through the scope, move scope to center. Trying to do it without the rifle in a steady rest is useless.

There are always newer ways of doing things than the old-fashioned ways. I just choose not to spend money where it is not needed. As long as I can zero a rifle at 100 yards in 2-4 shots, I ain't buyin' no LASER. Now if I start doing it for a living, or in high volume, THEN we might start thinking of ways to save time.

Fish head- bingo, that is what they are good for. At least the magnetic one I have. Can let you nkwo if your scope is still on too. BTW- mine seems to line up 100 zero at about 7:00 on the first ring.

Big Redhead hit the nail on the head. I don't see any need for spending money for something I don't need to do a job I can do free. Something is WRONG when I can't get zeroed in 4 or less shots.

For semi autos (I've only owned one) or pumps I simply start at 25 yds.

If I can look down the bore of my rifle-bolt action or single shot-I'll never trust a collimator. Like many others, I've seen my share of rifles at the range that had been "bore sighted" at the store that wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn. If I had access to a collimator I'd certainly give it a try on a pump, lever or semiauto but never seen the need for it in the dozens of rifles I've sighted in. I've read lots of good tips here, thanks Mr. Howell, JB et al.

Uncle Julian used to make house calls at any hour, day or night, all over the county. He had to buy a new car every year or so. Back when automatic transmissions were the latest and greatest, they cost a lot more than stick shifts, and the salesman at the dealership was always trying to talk Uncle J into going for a car with a marvelous new automatic transmission. He finally had to give-up on Uncle J �

"When I'm driving, I'm just sitting there with nothing else to do but shift gears every now 'n' then. I can shift gears for a long time, without it costing me anything."

+ 1...my sentiments xactly...

Count me another who looks through the bore to get on the paper at 100 yards. Just did it again last weekend with a #1 and its new scope.

Now, of course, it's a little less convenient with an AR10, but still possible

It starts to get harder yet with a Savage 99 Although one of these days I need to see if I can find a little inspection mirror that can fit into the action, and let me look through the bore that way

They're out there.

Or used to be.

I've had at least two that weren't alike. Haven't looked for one lately.

tex n cal,

There's a guy up my way that makes just such a device and sells them for $10 at gun shows and such. PM me your name and mailing address and I'll send you mine gratis. I don't use it much and can replace it anytime if needed.

I got one from an ad in Field N Stream in the late 1950s for my first deer rifle as a kid, a Savage 99. I need to find another to replace it.

Here you go. I found the tool in my gun parts box still in the package with the maker's card. You can order them online at:

https://estore.odcmp.com/store/cata...amp;note3=&note4=&note5=&max

Or you can inquire at the manufacturer:

My View Co.
PO Box 321
Webberville, MI 48892

The maker's card does not list a website. Believe it or not, some companies still don't have a website.

T H A N K S !!

I did one this morning, the windage was dead nuts but the elevation was high about 4 inches. Easy enough to fix!
whelennut

I like the sign, but maybe it should say "Violators may be shot."

I use a laser boresighter. Not that I need it to boresight, but neither do I need a big screen TV, microwave oven, cell phone, blue tooth, GPS Navigation, digital camera, night vision scope, or many of the other gadgets I have. I'm just being consistent in using new fangled gadgets and methods where they offer some advantage in ability, accuracy, speed or convenience.

I just used the "old" method last week. It still works quite well and doesn't cost anything. I will use a deprimed casing next time though, that sounds even better.

Cool, Thanks!

I'm not a speed-reader, but I just scanned this entire thread, and am very surprised no one mentioned my technique (or I missed it), which I believe from experience adds greatly to the accuracy of traditional bore sighting.

The critical difference is the choice of bore-sight target: A round bull in daylight hours is quite useful and somewhat easy to center in the bore. But better, and easier, and producing better results is a distant (spherical) light at dusk or dark.

Streetlamps are great. If you are fortunate enough to live away from light pollution, a bright star is best (Venus, for instance). Much as a peep sight utilizes your own biology to automatically center the front sight in the frame of the aperture, a distant light is conducive to precise centering in the bore. The drawback is that you probably have to wait till morning to check your results with live ammo.

This method has repeatedly and soundly put to rest any notions I had of obtaining a collimator or laser-type boresighter. When done for friends on their rifles, they are amazed at how precise it is, and how much ammo it saves. More than one has stared at his "gadget" he bought for boresighting (which resulted in less precise results) and wondered how much he could get for it on the market, slightly used.

That's how I set other optical instruments � (a) for polar North and (b) for practical "infinity."

� I lock my transits and adjustable compasses in line with the North star to adjust 'em for declination.

� I set my optical range-finders on "infinity" by Venus or the moon.

Sighting a star through the scope and peeping at the same star through the bore results in the line of sight and the line of departure being parallel, if done perfectly. That means your first shot will be low at a given range by both the sight height and the drop of the bullet. For a typical 308 win load that means the point of impact will be 4 inches low at 100 yards (1.5 + 2.5). With the software I linked to in my earlier post and my SL-100 laser boresighter I can get within 2 inches at 100 yards boresighting in my basement.

It�s nice to know how to do things the old way, but modern techniques and gadgets do offer advantages. When I hunt I bring along a map and compass as backup, but use a hand held GPS to show me where I am, where I�ve been, and how to get where I want to go with far more accuracy than the old way. Same with boresighting.

Pointing a rifle at a star while out in the country is not a problem. If you're not concealed from view, pointing a rifle at a street light is an invitation for a not so pleasant encounter with law enforcement. You'll only get to explain your boresighting technique after you've been disarmed.

Certainly, I should have included "The Ten Commandments of Gun Safety" in my post, or at least a couple commandments about being discreet while pointing at streetlamps.

Rest assured discretion and safety are always applied, and all caution is exercised in order that no unwanted attention be garnerd from terrestrial Law Enforcement or Venution interplanetary safety patrols.

No matter what you say here, or how you say it, there'll always be somebody here who's just waiting to jump in right away to find fault with it. Here, everybody is wrong somehow, as the omnniscients love to remind us.

If you really want to feel the omniscients love, just try to explain the basic physics of terminal ballistics.

Like hypocrisy, the charge of finding fault is hard to make without becoming guilty of it.