I have always wondered why Weatherby loads the Hornady 117 grain round nose soft point Interlock in 257 Weatherby factory ammo due to its .243 ballistic coefficient? The Hornady 117 grain BTSP has a .391 BC, If using a cup/core bullets why not it?

Anyone know why? Must be good for a lot of folks because they have offered it for many years.

Because once upon a time a 117 round-nose was THE bullet in various 25's. It started with the .250 Savage with the 1-14 rifling twist, and continued with the .257 Roberts due to the conviction in the 1930's (partially promoted by Ned Roberts) that round-nosed bullets were more accurate. This may have been true with the poorly-balanced bullets of the day. Also, there was a wide-spread conviction that round-nosed bullets plowed through brush without deflecting, unlike those new-fangled spitzers.

The .257 Weatherby was Roy's first commercial cartridge, and he simply had to offer a round-nose 117 to those who firmly believed in all those factors. Apparently enough of those customers are still around to keep the load on Weatherby's list.

Thanks MD. You confirmed some of my assumptions. I figure Weatherby wouldn't still offer it if the demand wasn't a profitable venture, so who is buying 257 Weatherby round nose factory ammo? I just don't get it.

Any other 'fire members ever bought the 257WM round nose ammo?

JB is spot on (again). The "blued steel and walnut" crowd is damnably hard to dissuade of their ideas, even to the point (pun intended) of roundnose ammo.

Now, I'm the first to acknowledge that blued steel, walnut, AND roundnose bullets are in fact not only useful but possibly better than other options. But that opinion doesn't extend to roundnose bullets in a megamangleum cartridge like the .257 Weatherby. That's just silly.

Who buys 'em? The guys who shop the night before deer season, when everything else is gone. There are enough of those bozos that sales figures are artificially inflated. Norma looks at the actual sales numbers and thinks, "We have to keep loading THOSE!"

I believe the original twist was 1-12 until the 80's or so. And this factory load carried over because of the older rifles. Did it really matter? Don't know, don't have a 60-70 vintage WBY rifle. The RN shoots lights out in my Remington and everyone else says the same. I mean 3/4" five shot groups at 100. Will it hold to together? All seem to agree it does pretty well. Range, just keep it under 350 and all will be well. The reloaded RN shoots really well in a friends 25-06. Seasonal runs by Hornady make getting them problematic. I still have a couple of boxes of the RN factory loads but I reload "pointy bullets." None out shoot the RN's so far.

Buzz Gillis

That might be also, good catch.

Dad bought a box of that 117 gr round nose Weatherby ammo back in the 1970's for a mule deer hunt - I was never really sure why instead of the pointy-nose stuff. It did shoot well as I recall.

Md's spot on and I still use them while my stock of factory ammo lasts on deer, hogs, etc. My MKV Ultramark loves them and frankly, out to 300 yards, I can't tell the difference

I have the seen the Weatherby ammo and wondered myself. Although I wondered why Remmy and Winny still load a round nosed bullet as well. I was looking at some old ballistics tables from the late 80's and saw that Remmy loaded a pointed 100g load for the Roberts. I wonder why they dropped the 100g load and kept the round nose? Sorry for the topic change.

Dale

I have 2 257 Roys both shoot the round nose the best of any factory loads i ever tried out to 300 yards or so there is not a lot of difference between the spitzer and round nose bullets.

This is the correct answer.

It was not just the .257 either. There were several cartridges that carried over with RN bullets some because of 12" twist which was theorised as the best option with the lighter weight bullet at hypervelocity, which Weatherby promoted in the 40's and 50's and in other cases such as the .340 Weathery which housed 250gn RN bullts (Hornady) simply because Hornday did not offer a spire point at that time.

John,

"Theorized" is the right word.

Two different twist-rate computer programs indicate that a 117--grain spitzer (whether boattail or flat-base) around 1.1 inches long with stabilize in a 1-12 twist. The stability will be somewhat marginal, but it's on the right side of the margin. A friend with an older 1-12 twist Mark V confirms this. But he also hunts only in the West, where higher elevation helps stabilize bullets. (Similarly, SOME 100-grain spitzer 6mm bullets would stabilize in 1-12 twist .244 Remingtons, especially at higher elevations.)

Which is why I suspect the real reason for 117 RN was the fact that it was the traditional bullet for many .25's. Even Nosler made several "semi-pointed" heavyweight bullets for years in various calibers (a 117 .25 among them) because so many shooters were convinced that "heavy" round-nose bullets got through brush better.

What's amazing to me is that Hornady supposedly makes that bullet for 25-35 velocities; and yet it apparently holds up well even at 257WM velocities.

It has the interlokt...Hornady's famous trademark. We've shot 'em in the 250 Savage, 257 Roberts, 257AI, and friends in the 25-06. They've all been accurate and deadly except in those 1-14 twist abominations. Old style Remington Corelokt...same thing. They did w/ the lokt what Nosler did w/ separating the the cores w/the partition. powdr

JB,
Good points. If memory is correct, a couple of things:

Firstly, the 117 grainers in spire point were not available or at least common in the 1:12 days of the German Mark V but there were 120 grain slugs which were better suited to the faster twist. Also, the average handloader thought of bullets in 5 and 10 grain increments more than the odd ball size of 117 grains, for the .257 caliber at least.

The only guys I knew who used that funny bullet weight were the saavy experienced deer hunters who "knew" that Hornady 117 RN was a great and reliable bullet, and you are correct in that the fella's who used the Roberts case, loved that bullet. The Spire points were more common in the late 70's long after the transition to Japan and the 10" twist occured. Perhaps Weatherby simply compromised with the 117 grainer in order to offer a heavier bullet weight for those inclined? They really had no option as they were contracted to Hornady for bullet supply and the 120gn HPBT was not yet created by Joyce Hornady. That bullet incidently, works very well in the .257 Wby case, though I never tried it in the 12" twist.

The other point I wanted to mention was that the big name bullets of the day were different than today. Example: Speer are though of as a reasonable soft fast expanding bullet today. Not so in the early to mid 70's where they were considered the hardest CnC bullet on the market, followed at that time by Hornady (Pre-Interlock) then Sierra which introduced the Game King range in order to generate a hunting bullet image in lieu of their trational target/match/hunting compromises of that era.

It get more interesting the more you reach back compared to today. We had to struggle for every decent load back then. I liked 87gn Hornady's, (Roy's favourite) 100gn Hornady and then I jumped up to 115gn Nosler Partitions which were fabulous.

John

EXACTLY! That one has had me scratching my head for a day or two.

All the background offered up here is great, but I'm with you. I don't get it either -- and I'll stick with my beloved 120 gr NPs, thank you very much.

I shoot the pointy bullets too and the 117g Hornady Interlock is my most accurate hunting bullet (although I use 100g for most deer hunting). Although at that speed, every .257 bullet deflects easily, I have heard many times that deer hunters believe that the round nosed bullets shoot more accurately through brush. Since a lot of deer hunting is done in brush, I think there is a marketing need to cater to this audience if you want to sell ammo. Most deer are shot well inside of 300 yards and at that distance the round nosed bullets perform quite well so there is no harm in using them.

It's one of the best DRT bullets on the market. Can't argue with its success.

Never say never. Shot the 117 RN in my 1-14" twist 99 F 250 Savage this past week. 3 shot clover leafs. Actually shot better than 100 grain Speer spritzers. Surprised the hell out of me, but you don't know till you try. Follow up testing is forth coming of course..........

Good thread revival, especially for a guy that's got a 1950ish Savage 99 in .250 on the way.

Might want to stock up on those RN bullets. They seem to be dropping off production lists at an increasing rate.

Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading Vol II(1973)

"The 1 in 12" twist used in Weatherby Mark V 257's will not stabilize the newest Hornady
25 caliber bullet, the 120 gr. Hollow Point. The 117 gr. Round Nose, however, shoots
very accurately in the 257 WM and is best for big game."

Sometimes, big time gunwriters should listen, instead of theorizing.

I'll be sure to tell a friend, who lives an hour away. He shoots 120-grain Nosler Partitions in his 1-12 twist .257 Weatherby, and has always been puzzled why they won't shoot any better than 3/4".

Of course you and your friends know more about Hornady bullets and factory ammunition than the factory testers themselves.

They keep making them because the round nose bullets bust through the brush better! JOKE!

Wby also used 1 in 12 for the 270, 7mm and 300 Wbys.

Back in the early/mid 1960s when I got into reloading a Sydney gunsmith, Don Black, was also a barrel maker and made 270 Winchesters with 1 in 12 so as to get consistent accuracy with 100 grain Hornadys. Bullets were simply not as good then These days a 100 grain Hornday will shoot spot on at top velocity from an accurate 270 Wby or 270/300 Winchester and 1 in 10 twist.

I think in those earlier days the 1 in 10 in 270s and problems with 100 grainers led to the introduction of the 110 grain bullets.

As a side note my general experience (on paper) is light bullets for the twist at long range, 500 yards, tend to show more wind drift than should be the case.

Also remember that a 1 in 10 twist in 243 is much slower than 1 in 10 in 30 calibre.

I think the slow twist in 243 and especially the 1 in 14 in 224 calibres makes rifles easy shooters and more likely to group different loads, different barrel fouling conditions to the same point.

A point of reference for you guys regarding older (German made and before) 257 Weatherbys. The 100gr TTSX will NOT stabilize in my older (1:12) MKV Weatherby, but shoots superbly in both my 1:10s. That is the reason for that short, stubby 117 Hornady RN, so it could shoot in the original Weatherbys. Today, we have MUCH better bullets and that 117RN really has little purpose in that flat shooting rifle in my opinion anyway.

I'm glad I found this thread. I recently acquired a German 1971 Weatherby .257 with the 1:12 twist. I have read quite a bit here and elsewhere about which bullets to reload with this twist. I am new to reloading as well. Flat based bullets seem to have a general consensus. This is good to hear about the 120-grain partition. I am going to start with the 100-grain partition and 100-grain interlock. Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Rick

The 100 gr Interlock and Partition shoot GREAT in the 1:12. That said, 100gr TTSXs WILL NOT. They are simply too long and will not stabilize. 71.3gr RL-22 (or MRP) Fed215 primer and u are good to go!

Thanks JorgeI. I have RL-22 and IMR 7828. I can't seem to find any starting loads for the 7828. The Hodgdon site lists 73 grains max. Hornady has data for 7828SSC with 66.8 grains max.
I'm not sure where to go from here with the IMR 7828.

I easily attain 3700 (26" barrel) with 22 or MRP. Never tried 7828.

They still make 'em because people buy 'em.

They'd make a round ball load if enough folks wanted them enough to pony up for them.

This principle explains a lot of the marketing "mysteries" out there. The reverse also explains why even good stuff sometimes falls off the edge of the Earth, which is why you can't find brass for your .358 Snotstomper.

Try as I will, I cannot, however, explain the .30 TC.

kroo88,

The 120-grain Hornady isn't any longer than the 120-grain Partition, so will stabilize in the same twists.

However, as was recently batted around in another thread, bullet stability depends on several factors, including elevation and temperature. Also, some rifle barrels don't have exactly the twist that's advertised. In fact, another Campfire member recently PM's me about a a .270 Winchester he's had for years that has a twist of 1-11", and I once owned a Savage 99 in .250-3000 that turned out to have a 1-15 twist. These sorts of aberrations aren't as common these days as they were back when when sine-bar cut-rifling machines were the industry standard, but they still can happen, especially in older rifles.

Even if a certain bullet will stabilize, say, 90% of the time in a 1-12 twist, bullet companies prefer to suggest a twist that will always stabilize that bullet, rather than have it not shoot well in a few rifles, whether because of atmospheric conditions or a slightly slower than nominal twist.

However, this does NOT mean the same bullet won't work fine in the same twist at, say, 4500 feet above sea level, which is where my friend lives. In fact, it will stabilize at even lower elevations, but not down at sea level, or close to it. Thought it would if the twist was even slightly faster, even 1 turn in 11.5 inches.

On the other hand, the 100-grain TTSX won't stabilize in MOST conditions in a 1-12 twist, even when started at 3500 fps in a .257 Weatherby Magnum. This is because it's even longer than a 120-grain Hornady Spire Point or Nosler Partition. But it should stabilize at over 8000 feet in elevation in most temperatures, and at 10,000 feet at about any temperature. But it sure isn't going to stabilize in any part of Florida, where Jorge lives.

But bullet makers can't say, "Will stabilize in 1-12 twists in high mountains," or "Don't shoot this bullet in 1-12 twists in Florida." Instead they have to keep things simple, by suggesting a twist that will work in ALL conditions.

But all of this is beside the point. Neither the 120-grain Hornady or 120-grain Nosler Partition existed back when Roy Weatherby introduced the .257 Weatherby commercially in 1945. In fact, the only one of the major American custom bullet companies that existed then was Speer, and at the time they were making varmint bullets with fired .22 rimfire jackets. Hornady, Nosler and Sierra all started up during the four years after the war, and even then none made .25 caliber bullets heavier than 117 grains for a number of years, because that was the traditional "heavy" weight in .25.

Even after Nosler started making 115 and 117-grain .25's, Weatherby didn't load them in any of their ammo for several years, because it took Roy Weatherby quite a while to grasp that tougher bullets were necessary for his cartridges to really perform. When he started his company during the war, his entire hunting experience consisted of a few deer, and while his first African safari in 1948 started to open his eyes, which was the same year John Nosler started selling his bullets publicly.

Even then, it took Weatherby a while to start loading Partitions in his ammo, and I seriously doubt whether he cared much about bullets heavier than 100 grains in the .257 anyway. His favorite was always the 100-grain, which he used on animals as large as rhinoceros, because it was FAST, and Weatherby was always about FAST. He probably offered the 117-grain load because some people wanted it, and he had a working relationship with Hornady.

And yes, back then just about every 117-grain .25 caliber bullet was either round-nosed or somewhat blunt. Thanks to .25-35, .250 Savage and .257 Roberts ammo, that's what people expected. Sharper bullets could easily have stabilized in the 1-10 twist of the Roberts, but Ned Roberts apparently found that round-nosed bullets at moderate velocities were more accurate--which was probably true back then, when most bullets weren't nearly as well-balanced as they are now. So Roy offered a load with 117 roundnoses, for several reasons. But I doubt the original 117-grain Nosler Partition wouldn't have stabilized in a 1-12 twist, no matter the conditions.

GREAT POST!And regarding the altitude, I did not know that John! Edited to add, regarding the 100gr Hornady (or TTSX) in the 257 Weatherby, nothing, but nothing kills deer faster, at least in my experience. Not a single one, not ever, has taken a step. j

John, Thanks for that little write up. Some very informative history on the .257 Bee. I'm kind of digging the "old school" approach. Slower twist, shorter barrel, simple effective bullets and dead critters. I like it, even if my Bee is "slow"!

Rick

Jorge,

100-grain bullets are certainly effective in the .257 Weatherby, which is why Roy liked 'em. I used them exclusively during the first few years I tried the .257, and had similar experiences--except the Tipped TSX hadn't appeared yet, and one "plain" TSX didn't expand. Had the same experience with one from a .257 Roberts, but after the tipped model came out havent had that happen again.

However, the plain 100-grain TSX killed like lightning most of the time. I vividly remember one Wyoming mule deer buck Eileen took my first .257 Weatherby, because the scope had gone nuts on her rifle. The buck was a chunky 3x3, probably 2-1/2 years old, the kind we both prefer for a meat deer, about 160 yards away, and she put the bullet right behind the shoulder, halfway up. The neck thing we saw were four hooves waving weakly in the air above the sabegrush!

In the past few years, however, I've been using heavier bullets, mostly the 120-grain Partition, partly just to broaden my experience, but now because they also work extremely well. The load I use gets 3300 fps in my NULA, which has a 24" barrel, and aside from one mule deer where the bullet apparently deflected on a sagebrush twig, everything has dropped just as suddenly as with 100-grain bullets.

Thanks, John. The only difference in post-mortems between the Hornady and TTSX is the Hornadys hardly, if ever punch all the way through and exit. They just expand HARD, inside the animal and do cause more damage that the TTSXs. Both rounds seem to "electrify" deer, I mean they just drop!

JB, Took a friend hunting last Sat. and he showed up with a "right off the showroom floor" 722 Roberts and part of a box of old Rem 117 RN's. He said he has a box of brass from the rifle and I figured I could jigger them w/25-06 dies to partly neck size and load them up for him. I have part of a box of the Horn. 117 RN's and was wondering if I should simply load them to factory (old Speer #7 says 2,560 fps) levels or up them a bit. I have also got 2 boxes of 120 NPT's which would go if it were mine. Thanks-Judd

I would load the 117 Hornadys a little warmer than 2560. They're pretty hard bullets (as some people find when they load them in the .25-35) but 2700-2800 would work fine.

Thanks John. Judd

They are accurate as hell in the 3 or 4 rifles I've fired them in. If I was forced to shoot factory ammo in my Mark V, they are what I'd shoot.

But 68 grs. of IMR 7828 and a 120 NP are what I've used with good success from the Powder to the Rio Grande,

Mule Deer, my reason for posting is mainly your dismissal of Aussie's answer to the OP's inquiry. Yours is merely an opinion, as is his, and you shouldn't have written it off so quickly.

I've been into the 257 for 30 years now and I, too,have an opinion. It is that those factory 117 gr. rounds were kept around for the Westgates and German rifles, at least originally.
After that who knows.

Deleted

kroo88,

As far as I can tell, I didn't "write off" John's (AGW's) opinion, whether quickly or slowly. But you sure jumped in with both feet with your comment on "big time gun writers."

I'm not particularly sensitive to criticism (you can't be and still risk publishing opinions all the time) but it's obvious you have something against "big time gun writers," so I am going to write you off quickly.

Well now that y'all got me interested in loading these in my German Weatherby, I only have half a box and there are NONE to be found anywhere, nor reloading components either!

Hornady has resumed production of their .25 cal bullets. Most of them had been "temporarily suspended" for quite some time. I haven't seen any yet though. I found a partial box of interlocks in the classifieds here awhile back.

Interesting thread, even though I don't have a .257 Roy. Might grab one someday.

I do have Dad's old .25-06, a sporterized Mauser, probably pre-dating Remington's adoption of the cartridge. For some reason its barrel measures 1 in 11" twist. It shot mediocre with factory 115gr Ballistic Silvertips, but shoots very well with 110gr Accubonds. Go figure.

Why don't you fold it five ways and put it where the moon don't shine?

Ya you're right. That was a cheap shot.