Curious how the 338 Federal compares using 185 Barnes or 210 Partitions vs a 358W/350RM/Whelen using 225 PT or Barnes...
Will the 338 match the 35s with above bullets?
How does the length of the 185 Barnes compare to the 210 (curious how much powder capacity each will take up)?
Lastly, do you guys feel a 338F w/above bullets equal the 35s in killing power for NA game to 300 yds?
I know the ballistics of all the rounds, just looking for info on penetration and killing power by those who may have tested them on media and/or game.
found this video on youtube a while back. he has at least one more 338 Fed video with 200gr fusions. Dont know if this is what you are looking for but figured I would put it up anyways.
To give a fair and accurate comparison, compare the .338 Fed with the .358 Winchester. The .350 Mag/.35 Whelen bullets of any given size will run 200-300 fps faster than the .338 Fed/.358 Win, simply because the cases are longer.
I've killed a batch of game with my .35 Whelen, and a fair amount the past few years with my two .338 Feds. Load by load, the Whelen and the .338-06 will simply run at least 200fps faster -- but I'm certainly not the least bit concerned about my .338 Fed rifles being "too slow" because they're not quite as powerful as my Whelen. It is what it is, and I think that's pretty much good enough.
65BR I have a 358Win and w/ all bullets I have tried it is a very capable cartridge to 350yds loaded to its fullest...especially w/the 200gr Hornady and 225Ballistic tip...which is no longer made. The 338 185Barnes is longer than the 210Nosler which is a somewhat short bullet for it's weight. The Barnes bullets being longer than most. I cannot speak for the 338Federal users as I don't have one but can't imagine that anything in N America can't be killed w/the 210 grain Nosler bullet. Chub Eastman from Nosler killed a Boone and Crockett grizzly w/the 210gr Nosler.
I have chosen the 225BT as my all round bullet in the 358Win, having a stash of the discontinued bullets. Noslers manual says the 225 is too long for the 358Win but mine is built on a Mark X long action w/a 23in Douglas barrel.It generates 2575fps w/Norma 201 powdr. The Nosler BT does not raise presures as much as the partition bullet. I wish Nosler made a 210gr bullet for the 358Win as their 210gr for the 338 is the flag ship bullet of their 338 line.
If I owned a 338Fed... which I would have owned instead of the 338-06... had it been available at the time of my building, I would shoot the 210NP for everything. If you want a more suitable bullet for deer,bear,hogs,etc. I would shoot the 185gr Barnes. Both will be fine bullets!
Dennis here on the fire... aka MuleDeer... has probably as much experience as anyone using the 338Fed. He is a seasoned hunter and veteran of the hunting fields. Try to get his opinion as it will be invaluable. John Barsness wrote an inspiring article comparing the two cartridges in Rifle or Handloader. His unbiased opinion was they are two peas in a pod until you get to the 250gr bullet w/the 338Fed not having enough powder space to deliver much velocity. The 250gr Speer in the 358Win has a long lineage of superb kills at 2450fps. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. powdr
I've owned and hunted with the .358 Win. for some 25 years and have some (but much less) experience with the .338 Fed. In each I tend to choose a mid-range bullet weight (even tending toward the heavier side sometimes) as I see no point in using light-for-caliber bullets to gain a few feet-per-seconds of velosity.....that give no advantage (except on paper) in trajectory and ,if anything) reduces penetration and killing power.
In the .338, I use 200-210 grain bullets and in the .358 a 200-225 grain bullet. In every case the .338 runs within a 150 fps of the same velosity with like size bullets. That's not enough to matter or notice in the field. The difference between 2400 fps and 2500 fps might be something to brag about at camp, but not significant in the field. Both tend to penetrate and kill equally.
The only "real" advantage for either is when hunting truely large game where the 250 grain bullets in the .358 leave the .338 in the dust. Even then, the "window" of usefulness is so small and the advantage over 200-225 grain bullets so small as to be almost a paper advantage instead of "real".
I've also shot and compared the .338-06/.35 Whelen as well as the .338 Win. Mag./.358 Norma and found the same "difference"....that is to say, almost none except in the heavier weight bullets available in the .358 bore size. That heavy bullet advantage actually shrinks as the case size grows from the .308 case through the .30-06 case to the magnum cases.
I've been shooting one form or the other in each size for so long that I have "settled" on the .358 Win., .35 Whelen and .338 Magnum. Not because I've found anything head and shoulders better about them than the competing .338 Fed., .338-06 or .358 Norma, but because I've not found enough difference to change what I know works and am familiar with. In every case it's a toss-up and you should choose what you find attractive (or find at the right price).
I have tested lots of bullets in many different calibers. Bullets of similar construction, S.D. and velocity will generally penetrate similarly. I would expect the 338 Federal to penetrate about as well as the 35W/350R with bullets of the same S.D. and construction. The 35 will have a bit of an impact advantage but dead is dead.
I wouldn't care to spend some time with the .338 federal, but I have owned a couple .358's and still have dies for it. I have beaucoup .308 brass laying around so maybe someday soon, I'll head off in that direction again.
Out to 300 yds I feel that within reason all rounds are pretty much equal. When things get in the 300-500 range things change and in the 500 on out even more so. But to 300 there isn't much diff.
I feel that the lil 33 will pretty much penetrate as far as the 350, if you were comping cases of simlar size then I'd go with the 33 being better at penetrating. But, either one will do just fine.
Side note, the 185 TSX is the only TSX/TTSX bullet I've not been able to get to shoot in a manner which I find acceptable and I've shot it in several 33's from big to small.
Now the 180 NBT is a total rock star. Shot it with R15 in my 338/06 yesterday and the group was one small bug hole..grin
What kind of game are we talking? Small big game like deer and lopes and black bruins or large big game like elk and moose?
A couple of years back, Mule Deer (JB) had an article in Handloader using TAC in the .358 Win. He also made a good comparison with the .338 Fed. The excellent article will give you more data to compare those 2 rounds. He gave the nod to the .338 federal.
As muledeer above stated: "The .350 Mag/.35 Whelen bullets of any given size will run 200-300 fps faster than the .338 Fed/.358 Win, simply because the cases are longer".
Good stuff gang. No doubt Dennis the long cases will outrun the short ones on the meter, but knowing how MORE impact speed can hamper penetration due to great frontal area, figured the real penetration say between a 338F vs. 338/06 or Whelen/350RM would be close.
Deertracker, thanks - seen that link actually recently myself. No doubt 'dead is dead' and I have not seen many 338F users complain. Have to search the 200 Fusion, might be very close I would think.
ON the application in question here, is 300 yds, NA game, rifle would be a 20-21" carbine.
As much as I like the 338/06 - I'd probably choose a 9.3x62 just b/c I have not run one...yet. ON the 35 Whelen, like the ballistics, but would likely opt to run the short action 350RM for twin results...though you do lose mag capacity, the advantage I see in the 08/06 based rounds.
Dober - read many good reviews on the 185 Barnes, and wonder how sensitive the OAL is to achieve optimum results. Are we talking > MOA in your rifle? No doubt the TSX/TTSX may not shoot bugholes like an NBT but I recall several guys getting MOA in the 185.
On the 200/210 note- I agree, normally never a fan of short for cal bullets, but can overlook bc when range is modest (as here under 300 yds) and the bullet is a Barnes which will FINISH a job weighing more than a cup/core that starts a good bit heavier.
I also agree on the 225 choice for the 358W. The short rounds I agree - lack the powder to drive the 'heavies' to their optimum speeds for trajectory.
No doubt, for the short rounds, and given a Barnes being long for cal, a Partition in 210 for 33 or 225 for the 35 may well be the best overall choice for fitting in a short mag box. At these speeds I figure a cup/core like a 200gr in the 338 would hold up well on impact.
Dennis, what's your experience sure in 185-210s in the 338F? Any updates?
No doubt, the longer actioned rounds are 'superior' on paper and for longer ranges but looking at a carbine, I just think a short action goes really well with a 20-21" whereas I like a 22-23" for a long action due to looking right and burning the extra powder.
The 225 gr TSX out of my Whelen (aka 350) has blown through elk and moose. The only critter I have taken with the 185 gr TSX is a decent bull with my 338-06 and all petals were lost as the bullet was recovered under the hide. That said the bill just crumbled at the shot so all good. All very simiar shots too though the latter was taken at 280 yards while the others at 75 anf 150, respectively. I now shoot the 225 gr Accubond in the '06 and it did fine on a griz and black this spring. Not much data but enough to have me settle on those two bullets. Starts a bit slow (2640 fps) but carries it well. My 358 sees the 225 gr Partiton. If I owned a 338 Fed it would see the 210 gr Partition based on my experience with it in the '06.
Never compared the penetration of these bullets in water jugs, but in 10 days will be heading north of Europe for swedish moose hunt, fallow deers and boars. The 338Fed will come with me loaded with 200grs Fusion, factory loaded, cause i need to test them a bit and make a report.
As JB aka Mule Deer wrote years ago most of game in the US and in Europe, for sure, is taken inside 300yards (meters), the 338Fed is up to the task and can do it farther.
I had choice for other calibers, bigger, faster, more powerful or straighter but i choose the small 338. I know it will do the job done if my shots are placed where they must be.
Don't worry about penetration, better think to place bullet right.
...I now shoot the 225 gr Accubond in the '06 and it did fine on a griz and black this spring.
Nice to know. My 338-06 likes the 225 ABs. My informal tests shooting bullets out of a Fed and '06 didn't show much difference. A 185 TTSX from the 338 Fed out penetrated any of the C&C bullets from the '06. Odd exception being the 215 Gameking which never opened, just blew a 338 hole through things. 225 AB out of the '06 did quite well slightly out penetrating the 185 TTSX out of the Fed (IIRC).
Dom, look forward to your experiences with the Fed.
Have some already, red deer does, wild boars, corsican mouflon, roes and foxes never recovered bullets (185TSx, AB or my own heavy 250grs Sako hammerhead handloaded) Here two of some of the game taken. Except rams all were shot in driven hunt while running full speed. Never went far...Ram were taken at 100 and 260m (110 and 290yards. Wild boar with 250grs Hammerhead
As to the 220...if I run a long action for big game, it's 99% going to be a 338/06 or a 9.3x62, using ABs/PTs/Barnes.
For me - Running an '06 in OEM trim is just TOOOO boring
Sorry for the 1906 lovers, nothing personal, I just would have to forget custom rifles, handloading, testing ammo, all the fun stuff that comes with taking a different road....as I could grab a factory rifle/ammo, sight in and never have the desire to play.
It's not about penetration but about 338Fed. Come back to the range to zero my Aimpoint H1 Micro on the T3 Hunter. It's the rig i'll bring to hunt moose, boars and fallows in Sweden next month. The 200grs Fusion from factory load was controlled at 785m/s average 3 shots, 2575fps, from the 22in barrel, temperature was 17�C. At 100 meters four shots (3+1) stay in 1,5moa (remember it's a red dot sight)and i zeroed to hit 1,5inch above point of aim. (sorry no pictures). Think penetration and accuracy will be OK for this hunt... Love that small cartridge. Have good WE Dom
I can say that I have chronographed 200 grain factory loads from the 338 Federal,35 Whelen,and 350 Remington mag.
The difference was pretty much negligible,the Whelen and Federal were virtually idetical,and the 350 was about 100fps faster.
This is due to the 338 Federal being loaded to higher pressures than the factory Whelen.
I can't really tell them apart in the field. Although full power handloads would give the whelen and 350 a 100-200 fps advatage with all bullet weights. We know this to be true because this is how a 308 sized case compares to a 30-06 sized case.
Great pics Dom, thanks. Those factory 200 Fusion loads must be pretty warm. I've chrono'd them in two different rifle at over 2700. Best I can do with 200gn handloads is mid 2600s (2660s) (22" barrel).
The 338 Fed. cannot run with a 350 Rem .Mag. the same as a 308 cannot run with a 30-06. The same as I could not play football @ UOM/Orono in '73 - Speed, Ass & Horsepower come to mind. JMO
Just an observation here. I've had several 350s, a 35 Whelen, both vanilla and improved, and currently have a 350 with a long box and throat, a Kilimanjaro on a MRC action. I haven't used or tested all the bullets you mention but the Whelen and 350 Rem mag really are America's "9.3x62" (.366 cal) and if you've been reading any cartridge info here of late you know how popular that cartridge is becoming and what it can do.
My 350 throws a 225-gr TSX to 2800 fps with TAC and this is a 400 yd load without too much exertion. To compare with the popular 9.3 which commonly throws 286-gr bullets, Swift makes a 35 cal, 286-gr A-frame which my 350 will boot to 2350-2400 fps which is what the 9.3 does. The Whelen can pretty much copy the 350.
My point is the two bigger 35s are quite a bit more capable than the shorter, smaller cased brethren but can be loaded more modestly also.
Yes that's a lot of ooomph but compare 338Fed to 35 Whelen and long throated 350Rem mag is a bit unfair: must compare them to a good 338-06. I don't know the ratio of big game really taken at 500 yards to ones taken at less than 300. For that duty the 338Fed is good enough, no better than a 30-06 but it works well for me and i'm sure i can go farther in case of need. Hope to have pictures to show after my swedish trip. Have good day Dom
This is a great thread for me to read right now. I'm getting a savage 99c to rebore and am on the fence as to go 338fed or 358win. The gun was really cheap but in decent shape and I've been wanting to make a conversion of that type. I'm still undecided but all the info on here makes it a more informed decision. Keep the info coming.
Hi MM, for a Savage 99 i'll go to the 358, they made some years ago so it would be normal to rebarrel in that caliber. Well handloaded is, for sure, not a short range caliber only and can reach farther than most think. Easy to handload too.
Good stuff guys, all the 350 talk makes my have seller's remorse: Buddy wanted to borrow my Ruger 77 SS and flattened a nice 10pt WT buck one evening. Later after killing more deer he dropped a HUGE Elk, cannot recall score - but it's up there, very impressive. Yeah, felt compelled to keep him happy and sell it to him so he had all the fun w/it
I could do worse than find another - chop bbl to 20-21" and bead blast it like another guy on the fire did, and do a trigger job/replacement.
YET, if I can get the same job done (via 338F), and have more rounds in the mag well - 'just in case' (thinking bears) and less recoil/blast to boot....but I realize there is a trade - off and no free lunch.
I do find alot of 358 Win users very satisfied w/their rifles for how they use them, on all size game animals, and feel if enough experience was out their in 338F w/good bullets that work best in the niche short action round, it may stack well also for a medium range mid bore.
T11 - me thinks I'd not be using the same bullets in a faster '06 or Win mag case as I would a short action case, and as to horsepower/penetration, a faster round gives more expansion/frontal area which typically decreases penetration. SO if an '06 - belted case, for large game and 33-35s, I'd start at 225s myself, but the 338F is probably at best peaking thru 210s and a 358 thru 225s, though some will argue and run 'HEAVIES' in a 358 and granted - up close they are hammers...regardless of downrange drop in trajectory and terminal velocity.
SO perhaps the playing field is leveled some (assuming modest distances) - as no doubt crunching numbers the shorts will never be longs in performance, but in penetration to get thru vitals however far from entry hole on various large animals, I guess there is a point where 'enough is enough' - assuming you have enough....and after that 'dead is dead.' To me the rationale between using a mid bore and a small bore is when you are hunting game, or hunting in an area where critters roam that can hurt you....and you want a little more bullet in expectations that you would put something down faster up close ...if needed.
I'll try be more helpful this time . I dont think you'd see a difference in the field between the 338 F and the 185 and the 358 and say the 225-gr NP on good hits on game so I think it boils down to preferences for you. Personally, even though a mono-metal bullet I'd shy away from the first in favor of the 210-gr and in a normal 350 magazines, I'd do the same with the 225-gr TSX in favor of the 225-gr NP.
My favor would lie with the the 358--a little tradition and nostalgia there though it certainly doesn't pass the Walmart Test
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. I dont think you'd see a difference in the field between the 338 F and the 185 and the 358 and say the 225-gr NP on good hits on game so I think it boils down to preferences for you. Personally, even though a mono-metal bullet I'd shy away from the first in favor of the 210-gr and in a normal 350 magazines, I'd do the same with the 225-gr TSX in favor of the 225-gr NP. 