Has anyone done an objective test as to whether the lack of use of a bore guide really does any damage to a barrel? I've read plenty on how important they are, but always wondered if this wasn't just marketing BS, or the old "clean every twenty rounds" crowd trying to find more magic in the minutiae.

I should probably add that I generally use a bore guide myself, but question it's true need.

Yes they are necessary to avoid off center rod alignment wearing the thoat.

As for cleaning every 20 rounds .... only of you own a 17 something.

Keep shooting until the groups open up. My 722 222 has seen at least 2000 rounds, never been cleaned and still pick flys off the target.

"More rifles have been ruined by cleaning than shooting."

With Wipe Out and the Hoppes Bore Snake, cleaning rods are almost obsolete.

That's the thing..... I've heard plenty of rehashed "it wears out the throat" talk, but have never talked to anyone who's actually seen it in person (via borescope).

I'm right with ya, I don't bother to clean my rifles until accuracy opens up, sometimes this is after hundreds of rounds. I kinda doubt I'm going to do much in the way of throat damage on a barrel that sees a cleaning rod a dozen times in it's life.

Heckifino.

But I never use one.

What I do is get electronic shrink tubing and use it to cover my cleaning rod. Then I wrap a swab around the next smaller size nylon brush and clean with that. The springiness of the brush keeps the swab in contact with the bore quite nicely, and there is nothing exposed that can damage steel.

Check with me in 20 years and I will let you know if I have damaged any throats.

I have never read any definitive research on the topic. If one used aluminum and exercised reasonable care, I'd think damage would be minimal for an average shooter.

My fingers are my bore guide.

I have a bore guide for every rifle I own, if you are going to clean your rifle do it right

Yes!

Gee you'd think that with all those advantages the military would require it. My time served the cleaning was done with the rod found in the butt stock.

Nope but they can be nice when in a hurry and if you clean your rifle a LOT.

I do believe I wore the throat out in my 30-06 by cleaning without a bore guide. I can't prove it but I believe it. There was some pitting in the bore and I shot silhouette with the rifle. It fouled badly and it got cleaned after every match. It was very accurate when kept clean until the throat wear progressed.

I used to be a more obsessive rifle cleaner, until proving to myself that it wasn't necessary. Among the rifles I cleaned a lot for years before I started using a rod guide was a Remington 722 .257 Roberts. The rods used were mostly bare steel, since back in the days when I was cleaning it a lot the common theory was that a coated rod picked up grit, and bare steel didn't. Nowadays, of course, everybody simply HAS to use coated rods.

Anyway, I still have that rifle and though it's showing some throat erosion when I look at it through the bore-scope, I can't see anything that looks like rod wear. And it still shoots extremely well, despite the throat erosion.

I have always used one, have had no issues. Then again as I always use one don't really know if not using one would be bad. The concept sure sounds right however.

Just my opinion a good one is worth it and bad one isn't and those are the sad facts of life. I don't know what necessary means - maybe somebody can afford to buy new barrels more often than Tony Boyer.

Gale McMillan has been known to write - long ago - that a bore guide used consistently will concentrate wear that might have been spread more evenly and so done less harm without the bore guide.



Myself I'm inclined to move with the bench rest and accuracy crowd to ever more elaborate sliding sleeve sort of things. Tony Boyer, who qualifies to argue with Gale McMillan (I don't; it's said Gale McMillan would talk guns all day with anybody but he'd argue only with folks who could match the bragging groups framed around his office including the .007 group) says in his book that he uses and recommends a multi-part bore guide system from T.K. Nollan - those run $130-$150 and up.

I suppose a Foul Out or some future foaming agent followed by a spray cleaner all with plastic straws will make the question moot.

I used to use Belding and Mull and other steel rods until I got a Parker Hale with a bright yellow coating. The yellow demanded to be wiped down and I noticed wiping the steel or wiping the coated I got about the same dirty results. Never did get any tow (unspun flax) for the Parker Hale jag. Today I use mostly Dewey sized to fit both the bore and the right length for the barrel, action and bore guide (maybe they spring less and rub less and I have a better feel for where the jag or brush is as frex relative to the crown - maybe not) even as bore guides have gotten longer with sleeves and ports. This means I might have multiple pairs of rods for the same bore but a different OAL. On the other hand I do, thanks to influences mostly from folks on this board, have a Gradient Hawkeye and I just might work some spots more than others worrying more about carbon rings or copper and less about patching until a patch runs clean several days running.

Breech or Muzzle, I always want to clean from the breech if possible. On rifles that have to be cleaned from the muzzle I will ALWAYS use a guide. Buggered up crown is not a good thing. Bore guide in the breech I guess is now more of habit for me.

most of the benchrest crowd I know is going back to non coated rods . never can tell about that crowd

There was an interval in which the chemicals clearly got ahead of the coatings - just as the move to plated or plastic when the brass jags and brushes started to dissolve. AFAIK today's good coated rods will stand up to today's chemicals but I have no idea about tomorrow's ever more potent brews.

As is proper, the original question has been turned more toward the question of cleaning rods, as they are the culprits here. As has been pointed out, bare rods are one sure way to destroy a barrel while coated rods are another. With bare rods there is always the chance that at some point, a part of the rod may make contact with a part of the barrel. Should this happen, the barrel will instantly reach a state of CKaSoaBaFF. (Can't keep a shot on a bucket at five feet.) Anyone with any knowledge of science understands that coated rods are like grit magnets. (In fact, many clean rooms in electonic labs are kept free of grit by having workers in clean suits walk around with coated cleaning rods to pick up every bit of miniscule grit in the room.) Again, should one of these rods touch a portion of the barrel, CKaSoaBaFF will be achieved. For the worst of both possible worlds, there is always the option of an aluminum rod. With this, metal can touch the barrel and the rod can be imbedded with grit besides. We would be remiss in not addressing jointed rods with their insidious protrusions every six inches or so just waiting to shear off copious sections of the barrel's interior. To get back to the original question, if a bore guide is used, it is best to use it alone, without any rod whatsoever. Doing so will help to ensure long and accurate barrel life.

My opinion is a good bore guide is mandatory, no matter how often you clean. A good bore guide protects the throat, keeps the rod from getting tweaked and seals the chamber to prevent solvents from leaking back out of the chamber and damaging the bedding or stock.

Crappy bore guide are just......crap. -Al

Would this grit - that the rod picks up in the bore - be the same grit that I've been imbedding in the jacket of each bullet I fire down the bore at upwards of 3000 fps?

I for one dont believe not using a boreguide will damage your throat, I use a Dewey coated rod for one and I also believe that any lubricity present in the cleaning solvent would help prevent wear much like the oil in your truck engine. Not to mention, you really think the metal in your cleaning rod is harder than your barrel steel?

I clean my 30-30 from the muzzle. I've been doing it for 30 years. I use a wooden dowel rod as a push rod.

The only "damage to a barrel" I may have caused, was from not using a bronze brush to clean carbon, which caused a buildup of carbon in the form of ring at the throat. Here is a pic showing where it used to be.



The muzzle is fine.



It shoots wonderfully! Yesterday's shot;

I would not have cleaned it yesterday but for the rain.


I did make a bore guide of sorts a week ago for my bolt action; just for keeping chemicals out of my lug recesses.

Here is that rifle after 100+ cleanings without a guide.

That one also shoots wonderfully. The last time I shot it;

thats pics of a 30 year old rifle bore ?

The top two pictures are the 30 year old bore. Here are newer pictures.

This sounds like the True Grit.

P

To help keep the rod centered in the bore with bolt action rifles, I use a 20 gauge shotgun shell (already shot/hull), cut down to about 1" long and the primer hole drilled out/enlarged to fit my cleaning rod. It stays on the rod, it pushes snug into the rear ring of all my rifles and stays put.

Easy to do, not sure it's really necessary, but doesn't hurt. I don't fuss over keeping the chamber/lugs dry when cleaning.

Back in the day when I was shooting benchrest comepetitively ....perhaps regularly is a better word than competitively... everyone used a bore guide. The general drill was to fire a group or a relay and then clean. That works out to one cleaning for every 5 to 7 shots. We used to figure those barrels were good for 1500 to maybe 2500 rounds before accuracy began to fall off. So a barrel that had 2000 rounds through it probably got cleaned around three hundred times during its useful life. Figuring two round trip passes of the cleaning rod per shot and 5 patches down the bore to remove solvent and it comes out to 30-35 passes of the cleaning rod per group. If I did the math right thats over 9000 passes of the cleaning rod during that 2000 round barrel life. Thats a lot of scrubbing. Under those conditions a bore guide made sense...especially considering the replacement costs of those exquisitely made Hart and Shillen barrels.

Benchrest shooters tend to be obsessive and I doubt that many hunting rifles need that kind of extensive cleaning. I still use a bore guide on my hunting rifles, not so much to protect the bore but to keep cleaning solvents out of the action. And now that I am switching over to the foam bore cleaners, I use the boreguides almost not at all anymore.

The reason I am for a bore guide, when using aluminum rods is not because of imbedded grit, but because of the oxidation of the aluminum rod.

The oxidation is that kind of white, powdery stuff that forms on aluminum when left out in the weather. It can also get on cleaning rods.

Aluminum oxide is very abrasive. It is what grinding wheels are made from. I want to do everything possible to prevent this stuff from contacting the bore. A stainless steel rod, or a coated rod would be suitable.

If you're going to go to the expense of hiring a guide to take you hunting, he should at least be an interesting person to talk to.

I use a bore guide to keep cleaning liquids out of the action. I use a stainless steel rod that is kept clean. I've had no bore damage I can see.

Wondering if you would shoot that thuty-thuty at a deer or running bear? It would be interesting to know what it's done in the woods and what projectiles you use with it. Thanks

Have you ever seen a used military barrel? When you had to clean from the muzzle, the muzzles were always horribly worn.

I have not seen a used AR barrel from the military but would assume same.

But they are expendable. Just because the military does or doesn't do anything, I sure as hell would not take that data and apply it to a top quality hunting rifle barrel. Especially a custom one.

Jeff

You don`t use a cleaning rod in a AR.They use a nylon coated cable that is pulled through.

they Do reqire it dip &$"^!

I use one on my bolt guns, but mainly so aggressive type solvent etc doesn't seep down into the magazine/lugs. I can't imagine cleaning a rifle so often, that you screw up the throat...you'd have to clean a hell of a lot! Since switching to Wipeout, I hardly ever scrub with a rod, just pushing a few patches.

Rifles are a lot like motorcycles. Some guys shoot/ride a little, and spend more time cleaning and fussing over them. I prefer to shoot/ride often, and clean when needed/as time allows.

Jeff

During my team competition years, the Gunnie at Quantico showed me a match barrel completely destroyed by a jarhead who affixed a cleaning rod to a drill motor in an attempt to speed up cleaning the bore. This underscored how easily a Marine can break most anything. Kinda like the saying, give a Marine two ball bearings in a rubber room, he'll break one and lose the other.

When cleaning from the breech end through the receiver; No matter how often or how little you clean the bore, it is always an easier task if you can seal off the receiver and isolate the bore by using a cleaning rod bore guide. Doesn't matter your choice of solvents, cleaners and oils. It's always an easier task when you have a sealed bore guide as an aid to transition your stuff through the receiver and into the bore.

In addition, where you may get away with neglected bores in dry climates, you may pay the price with pitted bores in wet coastal areas if you routinely ignore soft fouling.

Best