for all practical purposes, what is better 4 or 6 power? For me I will say 4 power is better for moving and up close shots, then it will do just as well as the 6 on longer shots. I know the old timers like Jack O'Conner thought it was fine for long range. JMO
I tend to use 6x on most of my big game rifles until the cartridge gets up to around .33 caliber. Then I go to 4x or lower, depending on the rifle. Do have 3x scopes on a couple of "woods" rifle, however.
It doesn't matter and it's a matter of taste not logic. Jim Carmichael suggested a long long time ago in effect and as I recall that for folks moving from iron sights - O'Connor, Koller and other such - then a lower power as 4X was an easier adjustment and further that for folks who have always used a scope the adjustment had long since been made and so 6X would do just fine and give no problems of adjustment.
All this as I recall it but certainly something like this makes good sense to me.
That said I have a fixed 2.5 on a double rifle and a couple of Steye Scout style (.308 Scout and .376 Dragoon) also with low power but I shoot varmints with a 16X. Some others between and beyond. None of this is by logic or rule or any purely mythical best choice it's just my choice. YMMV
I have decided 1.5-6x42 is best for deer hunting for me. It does everything I need it to with plenty left over if I need it.
4 or 6 if that was the only choice?
It's not the only choice.
I could live with 4x but I would rather have 6x on the top end. I hunt in Minnesota where shots can come in pretty dark conditions and at close range when and where the "clear" shot might be presented only for a second. A fixed 4x is too slow for that for me. A FFP scope with a duplex is like a shotgun to me down at 1.5x.
Like JB's answer, b/c if you are toting a 33 or larger bore, odds are you have LARGE game on the menu and that is best done with good FOV, esp. in brush.
I'd shoot deer at 15 yds w/6x all day long, but would not want one if a Grizz jumped up at the same distance
Now if one could get a 5x35 in an FX3 or Conquest....just sayin'
I'll be interested in how you like that Weaver 4.75x. I had one for a while and did quite a bit of hunting with it.
Might comment than I've shot some moving game at close range with a 6x, including a whitetail 25 yards and a feral pig at 10 yards, and didn't have any problems.
Why would you limit yourself to a fixed 4x or 6x when a 1.5x6x42mm would give you everything either one of the fixed scopes would and a whole lot more.
I hunt coyotes and get hard chargers in very close(three under 10'this year) and some that hang up way out there. With the low power varialble they are all covered. With the 1.5x 70" FOV I can keep the dogs in the scope and still pick opennings in the sage ahead of the them for a shot or spot second coyotes that are coming in also.
The "charm" of fixed-power scopes to a lot of us is the fact that we've seen too many variables fall apart. And we haven't had any trouble killing big game from coyotes to Cape buffalo with various fixed powers, without a scope failure.
I've got a standard cross hair K4 on my .22 lr hunting rifle, but I have 2 fixed-6x on centerfire rifles... a K6 on my 6-250 and a Burris FFII 6x w/ BP on my mountain-weight '06.
I really like 6x scopes for all-around hunting use.
I've never had a variable fall apart, but like the simplicity of getting to know one FOV and the attendant holds.
I wonder if the trend toward variable scopes coincided with the trend toward tree-stand and truck hunting. The magnification ring gives you something to dink with while waiting for a deer to wander by or when you're out of radio reception.
I like fixed power scopes; Leupold 4x's or 6x's depending on the caliber, with 3x's getting the nod for some rifles where I like the scope mounted as low as possible.
I have had 1 variable to DIE, however it had been on every big kicker I had had. There is no telling how many rounds it sat over. The crosshairs BROKE, I saluted the scope and went on my merry way. It was a scope I used for testing, group shooting, chronoing, etc.
I have never had any scope to go haywire while hunting. I know it has happened to others. I can't remember when I began using variables - 70s ? and I'm not about to stop.
Don't worry guys, I'm no competition for your FIXED powers.
I like 'em all and use 'em all, except for the monster big objective scopes and ultra high power hunting scopes...but I've come full circle in my preferences.
I use 4x and 6x primarily, am very fond of the older M8 3x also, but in more limited applications. Like MD, I've found the 4x and 6x pretty good in close situations...maybe I just like the profile of the 3x.
Ford vs Chevy, Adidas vs Nike, Fruit-of-the-Loom vs BVD, 7mm Express vs 7mm-06 vs .280 Remington...
What's best for you, is best for you. A good quality scope (like $300 or better) in either persuasion will do you up right. I'm a 4x guy, and I'm fine with that, even if it does make me a bit of a pariah around here...
I have 1.5-6, 3-9, 3.5-10, etc. variable scopes, but I've realized lately that they all seem to be left on 6X for the duration of my hunts. I'll be buying a FX3 6x42 to try out real soon.
I have a bunch of variables but my big game rifles wear 6x36's with the long range duplex. I live in eastern MT and even in the thick river bottoms they are fine, simple strong and they work.
I'll be interested in how you like that Weaver 4.75x. I had one for a while and did quite a bit of hunting with it.
What did you think of it? Not good enough to keep, I take it?
I had one, briefly, a while back. It didn't really thrill me, so it went down the road. Not that it wasn't competent - it tracked fine, had mildly decent eye relief, yadda yadda yadda. It just didn't "pop" to my eyes. Also, I had it on a rifle that I quickly came to loathe, so I'm sure that didn't help it any.
It was fine scope, with shapr, bright optics, plenty of eye relief and tube length, andf accurate adjustments. It was also plenty tough, since it rode out quite a few hard kickers.
But it was a tweener, not as light as a 4x and not as nifty optically as a 6x. Admittedly, that's just me.
I'm fine with that, even if it does make me a bit of a pariah around here...
FC
I wouldn't even think of you as a pariah. That club doesn't need more members.
I'm kind of in 24hrcampfire Purgatory: I've been here for years, but I like wimpy cartridges and fixed power scopes, and I still don't have a .223AI. At this rate, I'll never make it to "Turdlike"!
Yup. For some reason, there is a stink of superiority attached with their use.
Yep I've noticed the air, I am not being condescending to anyone...
From my perspective a fixed 4 or 6 is restrictive. I prefer 3-9 or 4-12. Most of the time my scopes are on 6 OR 8x. When needed, I have a 4 OR 9 or 12x available.
Just my preference, not trying to persuade anyone.
My crappy eyes & shooting technique find it easier to have 1 sight picture every time. Maybe if I shot competitively, or couldn't hold groups tight enough for my liking, I'd go for a higher powered variable.
Whatever works for folks, they should use. This is supposed to be fun, right?
We dont all like fixed power scopes.......Seems like every rifle I buy lately has a damn 4x leupy on it...I dont mind though because they are always easy to sell...Sold my last one for $80.00 and was glad to get rid of it....
We dont all like fixed power scopes.......Seems like every rifle I buy lately has a damn 4x leupy on it...I dont mind though because they are always easy to sell...Sold my last one for $80.00 and was glad to get rid of it....
If you had the 4x28 version that's one of the Rolex of scopes for the hard chargers here. It will withstand many hours of vibration from ATV motors. ..........
I tried both a 4X and a 6X and decided they had been tried, measured and ended up lacking. As hard as I tried to fit somewhere in the fixed X crowd, I can find no provenance there.
Having owned hundreds of rifles, and easily over a hundred scopes, I haven't found the reliability problem that everyone else seems to find with the fixed X. On top of that I have killed hundreds of game animals, 10's of thousands of varmints with those same scopes and can't remember a single issue that I needed to send a scope back for repair that didn't include a severe drop or blow to the scope.
I do, however, have a 4X and a 6X on every rifle because I can adjust the variable I have on the rifle to that power and several others as well. Point of impact seems to stay well within tolerances too, as I have shot game at close range and extended range with the same setting and killed them all.
For me, I will continue to hunt and kill all all ranges with a variable and find little reason to stay with a fixed power. If it worked better, I would use a fixed X...
I have 1.5-6, 3-9, 3.5-10, etc. variable scopes, but I've realized lately that they all seem to be left on 6X for the duration of my hunts. I'll be buying a FX3 6x42 to try out real soon.
Bingo! Winner, winner chicken dinner...Mirrors my experience as well, plus with my ADT, I can't screw it up in the re-prod, 8 yr. old clear cut with the variable at 12X...YMMV
Pretty happy with the fixed 6x's on my .30-06 and my .25-06, which I've used a lot over the past few years. Most of my hunting has been done with those scopes in recent years and I've been very happy with them at ranges near and far.
Also have fixed power scopes in 2.5x, 12x and 20x. They serve well.
I do still have a use for variables though. Most recent scope purchase was a 1.5-5x, and it's working out real well.
I have broken a few cheap scopes. Fixed and variable. I have never broken a good scope. I have never had any grief from a good scope whatsoever, fixed or variable. I did buy a variable that had a bad seal on the objective end, but the manufacturer replaced that scope with a new one.
Picking up a deer in brush at 4x or more is a skill I have yet to master or even begin to develop for that matter. I can shoot as quickly as a man could ask for with irons, probably from putting many thousands of rounds through a shotgun, but I just am not good at finding things in a scope once I get past past about 2x.
I have 2.5x,4x, 6x, and a bunch of variables from 1.5-5x20 Leupolds to a 3.5-10x42 Sightron. I like the 6x Zeiss on a .243 for whitetails and think the 1.5-5 Leupolds are great on just about anything under 300 yards. Never had one come apart but I only shoot a fraction of the rounds each year that JB does.
One of the deals with variables is that most stand up well to rifles chambered for cartridges up to the 7mm Remuington Magnum and 30-06 in recoil. Most hunters never shoot a rifle "bigger" than thst.
That said, I've seen more variables fail over the [ast few years than ever before. They were from several manufacturers, and not cheap, costing everywhere from $500 to over $1000.
Shrapnel's experience is valid, but I shoot a lot more makes of scope thsn he does. I might also shoot a lot more scopes on hard-kicking rifles, due to testing. But I dunno.
My crappy eyes & shooting technique find it easier to have 1 sight picture every time. Maybe if I shot competitively, or couldn't hold groups tight enough for my liking, I'd go for a higher powered variable.
Whatever works for folks, they should use. This is supposed to be fun, right?
FC
This was shot with a fixed four power. Six shots...
My 30/06 is the same way. I don't know that I have ever felt limited with a 4 or 6 powered fixed power scope out to intermediate distances, say 3 or 400 yards. I have a 10 power on my 300 that I use for 1000 yards shooting, and that seems to work fine for me too.
Was "hunting" does in a bean field last night on crop damage permits. Have a Leupy M8-4X on my Mauser. A contestant came out of the woods at 200 yards and dared me. The image in the scope was clear and bright and all that, and I did kill the deer, but DANG! that deer looked small through that 4x. Been using 2-7x33s but that rifle wanted a longer scope, so I mounted the 4x. Think I'll go back to the 2-7 one way or another!
I do, however, have a 4X and a 6X on every rifle because I can adjust the variable I have on the rifle to that power and several others as well. Point of impact seems to stay well within tolerances too, as I have shot game at close range and extended range with the same setting and killed them all.
...
That is where I am toooo.
Granted I don't shoot as much as I used to, but there was a period of several years that guns, loading, shooting, chronoing, etc. was my ONLY hobby, past time. It was during that time the one & only scope broke. It was 1.5-4, had been on a lot of hard kicking rifles, light 358s, 7 RM, 300 WMs etc.
I once had a VX III 2.5-8 that shifted POI too much, not sure if it was the scope or in the mounting. Wound up trading it before I found out.
Well guys, at least I found out there are others here at the fire who prefer variables.
Yes RD - it is fun.
MD - It does not bother me for anyone to prefer fixed x, it seems to me y'all are forfeiting the advantages of using MORE or LESS power depending on situation.
Besides --- there is less competition for my favs.
I've hunted big game with a LOT of variables, but eventually wondered why, because I almost never changed the magnification from the 4x-6x I set them on in the first place.
Some do see a difference. Obviously: More power to them!
Our rifle scopes like the cartridge we are firing that day are a compromise in some way. I suppose a fixed 4X is better in some way, say it's less likely fog up or something.
I started out with a 6X scope for deer and varmints. It worked but I was bothered by running deer up close. I am more comfortable with a 4X so I had one soon on the big game rifle.
To each his own on this. We all like to argue that this or that piece of gear is better in some way.
For the last few decades I have got some variables and I prefer them.
Recently I shot a buck at just under 300 yds. I suppose I could have made the shot with a 4X or 6. The rifle had a 2-7 on it turned up to 7X and it did well. Only a week or so before that I saw some deer way off and I could not tell if there was a buck in the group. After that I got some switch power binoculars. I have 8X and now 7X to 12X switch power binocs.
I say use whatever you want. But I don't see how anyone could argue that variables are more reliable that the more simple fixed power scopes. My fixed power scopes are an aide to accurate shooting and a move up and something of a compromise from irons, which are more reliable. I'm a hunter at heart and a simple guy. I don't need to study stars with my rifle scopes. When I see that 350 inch Bull this fall I don't need the distraction of power rings or dials or Christmas tree light in my scopes.
First buck about 75 yards with iron sights, second buck, 800 yards with a 4-16X50. I could have shot the first buck with the second rifle, but I would have never gotten a shot on the second buck with the first rifle. I wouldn't have shot at either with a fixed X scope...
Most of the time I don't change the power setting BUT there have been times it came in handy. Sometimes I've needed to go low for very close range.
Other times I've needed ALL the power I had in cutovers, not to hit a deer but make SURE it was legal. After watching a big deer for a long time, even at 9x, he had to turn just right for me to see an eye guard. Turned out 6pt, 172 lb, 16 7/8 INSIDE spd. I was very glad for more power.
Fixed power junkie here...I have 2.5x, 3x, 4x, 4.75x, 6x, 12x and 15x scopes on various rifles and now have only one variable (on an AR). I have had a couple of variables go kerflunk but have never had a fixed power scope go belly up. Also have never had problems shooting good groups with fixed power scopes or using a 6x in the woods.
The Weaver Grand Slam fixed 4.75x is a great scope for short action rifles and also muzzleloaders. I have 3 of them including this one on a .358.
I've hunted big game with a LOT of variables, but eventually wondered why, because I almost never changed the magnification from the 4x-6x I set them on in the first place.
Some do see a difference. Obviously: More power to them!
I see a difference probably becuause I have chitty eyesight and need all the help I can get... The last buck I shot at 600 yards was with a 4.5-14x40 cranked up to 14 power. The one before that was at 90 yards and the buck was trotting with 2 does. It was snowing at the time and my buddy stood right next to me with his rifle raised. We both were looking though our scopes and he said.....doe....doe.....doe and I said nope...BANG!!! I had enough time to crank my scope up to 9x and get on the buck and knew what it was. My buddy was peering thru a good ol leupy 6x and couldn't tell one was a buck....Albeit the liquid sunshine was a factor in our visibility but that's just one instance where I've seen a variable work better than a fixed power scope.....It was a good side by side comparison so to speak that helped to convince me. I am, however, very biased as I grew up using a 3-9x40 variable on a sporterized m1917 where I could have filled a few arks with jackrabbits from the high deserts of Northern Nevada.....As they say, "to each his own" definately applies to this conundrum....
There is a place in my collection for fixed scopes even though they are not what I would pick for a hunt. I keep a fixed 3x or 4x scope all set up with rings and sighted in as a back up incase of a fall or damage to a scope. They are inexpensive and light enough to keep in a pack and could possibly save a hunt.
I hunted with them for 30yrs before going to variables.
Here's a target that I shot with a Weaver K-3, to prove the first group wasn't a fluke I shot another, it did grow a little.
The same rifle with a Weaver K-4 at 300yrds
I still wouldn't pick a fixed 4x or 6x for a serious hunting scope, I do have a couple of K-1.5s on specialty rigs just because I don't have enough 1x4's or 1.5x6's to go around, but every year I get a little closer.
Shrapnel, I'm trying to understand why you would not have shot either buck, please explain. Are you joking?
It is quite simple, I don't own a fixed X scope so I wouldn't have had one to shoot either deer. If 4X or 6X is the true test of the rifleman, I won't qualify, but with iron sights, I have still killed truckloads of game, when I use a scope, nothing but a variable will do and have found no place in my safe for a rifle with a fixed X scope...
I say use whatever you want. But I don't see how anyone could argue that variables are more reliable that the more simple fixed power scopes. My fixed power scopes are an aide to accurate shooting and a move up and something of a compromise from irons, which are more reliable. I'm a hunter at heart and a simple guy. I don't need to study stars with my rifle scopes. When I see that 350 inch Bull this fall I don't need the distraction of power rings or dials or Christmas tree light in my scopes.
Agreed.
I like and use 3X,4X,6X,and variables. If I had to live the rest of my life with a 4X for all my BG hunting I could do it...might not like it all the time, but I could do it.
But I am not a real LR hunter,and the farthest I have killed with a 4X is 400-500 yards.Most of my BG animals have been killed a lot closer.
Of the two mentioned by the OP,I would grab the 4X if we are talking a theoretical choice of one scope for an all-round BG rifle....but who on here makes that kind of choice today? Almost no one,because we all have multiple rifles....so I have 3x,4x,6x and variables on different rifles.I like them all.
Aww man, do I have to choose between variable and fixed scopes? It would really suck if I had to choose one side of the fence, and then scope all my rifles accordingly. I'm like Bob, I like both fixed and variable scopes, for different rifles and different applications!
I have been to gunstores twice this last week trying to figure what the hell to stick on the rebarreled 270
Given it's bullets' sofa pillow trajectory,propensity to drifting in a sneeze, and uselessness beyond 143 yards, I was thinking a 1X Weaver, but can't find one.
This variable is too bulky to clear the bolt handle in "lows",that one is too heavy and clunky but great optics,the one I like won't span the rings........ocular housings are the thickness of eggplants....that one looks POIFECT but a predecessor slipped its' moorings on me....a VX3 has better optics than a VX II.........on and on it goes.Scope shopping is a PITA!
No wonder I end up with a crummy old 4X or 6X Leupold anymore LOL!
That makes the choice a lot easier. Lots of great choices, as you know, but a 6x with dots or an M1 or CDS would certainly not be a mistake!
If you go looking for animals at 500+, you might be able to find opportunities. Be advised, it might require belly crawling backwards, though... *grin*
JB, agree w/you. Others, I can't disagree w/your experience. RD - in all fairness, I have been told a 10/22 can be MUCH HARDER on a scope than a CF rifle (high volume of bolt slamming vibration on the breech of a 22 semi that gets alot of rounds), and we know airguns destroy CF scopes, at least spring piston rifles.
NOW....my first deer was killed using a K4, I know for sure my last 4 were killed using an FXII 6x36, records show ALL kills on deer, over 80% fixed, MOST 4x or 6x - w/a 2.5x and 10x used once respectively.
I had a 7BR rifle, my memory is fading in my middle age...but I know it was around .4...if not better, 3 shots, 100 yds, the last group I shot at the range before selling that rifle. Scope? 4x32 Pro-Staff Nikon.
That combo in the field? Sure...9yr old son - 1st deer - shot at 100 yds and either held wrong thinking the rear qtr was the front shoulder or pulled off, but hit in the paunch. Dad took the rifle (me) and finished the job. Deer laid down 150 yds, head up above grass line, hit the jaw not brainpan...(found out later but my fault - poor rest and rushed shot) so I re-chambered, dropped the deer at 200 yds running wide open thru a field, just before hitting a fence-line and thicket....spine shot.
Point is...the 4x worked great, no fiddlin' w/a power knob or second guessing the setting. Complete focus in sight pic, hold, shot execution, and witnessing post shot results thru large FOV - niceties of a fixed IME. MY kill record, MOST kills 200 yds or less, my older son shot his first 2 deer at 300+ and 275, both 6x36, minutes apart, one shot kills.
EVERYONE here hunts in a different habitat, different game perhaps, ranges, etc. SO no one size fits all, but I strongly agree fixed scopes hold up better than variable.
RD - I share that Elite scopes are tough and perhaps have a better record than Leupold variables. I own/use a few 3200 and 4200, NEVER had a failure and very happy w/optics. They are heavier than Leupolds..just a fact, not a dig on them or a plug for Leupy.
Day in and day out, MY feelings and experience sway me to using a Leupold 4x or 6x if pressed to ONE scope. It would be the last I'd part with on a rifle.
Vortex? Nothing against them, and one of the distributors who is a fine man and has great customer service, but they just are not MY cup of tea.
MY confidence as JB has come from experience with Leupold fixed. Others here, from other brand and type i.e. variables.
JB and I disagree on things about Remington b/c our experience differs. I don't discount HIS experience or knowledge nor disrepect him b/c it differs.
Use what works and what gives you confidence. If a fixed does not fit your style of hunting or gives you confidence, don't knock others that it does, and vice-versa.
I use both fixed and variable, trust fixed the most, recognize the often meaningless limitations a fixed has, and the potential opportunity a variable gives...even though a fixed would often have worked as well.
I give credit where due, longest deer kill, #1 Ruger 6BR custom in varmint weight config, 6-24x 4200, 400 yds, chip shot. If pressed, that shot could have been made with an 8x, 10x or 12x, fixed or variable. 6x - don't know but not ideal I'll admit. Small deer.
On that note - re: the 800 yd kill above, I'd NOT shot using a 6x.....and likely not shot using a Hubble scope. Just not how I hunt or target practice so I'll leave that to the LR experts.
Certainly if going LR, a 10x or 12x is much better past 400, but at 600 and further, more is useful. Thankfully the majority of MY opportunities/shot presentations have been a third of that...but I acknowledge, make no mistake, if you want or need to shoot that far, can't or choose not to stalk closer or wait, then a fixed 4x or 6x is not ideal.
Long before computer proliferation, I was 17, roaming w/a 10/22 iron sights, shot many birds - black birds, others similar size - up to 100 yds.....made shots on slightly larger critters using irons on handguns - 4" and 5.5" 22LR........
HITTING game and Killing game is often FAR more about being familiar with YOUR gear/tool, whatever gun/sight you use, than the differences in specs one product gives over another.
If you PRACTICE and KNOW your equipment well, if reliable, you should be able to do whatever you need when the opportunity comes. Having the BEST is nice, but w/o practice, by itself can mean little when the time comes to get a job done.
Back in college, I outshot many a 3-9x rifles, at 100 yds, using a TC Contender w/2x or 3x scopes....granted, I spent many more hours and rounds downrange than the average hunter. There-in lies why I shot better....practice.
Oh, yes, we were all on Sand bags on a bench. Apples to Apples but I'd not bet against them in the field, given a handgun is 3x as hard to shoot from what I hear...just making a point about scope power and accuracy.
I still have a target, 30/30 TC contender, 10" bbl, 50 yds, and IIRC, way under .2" c-t-c. The kicker is, it was done by me using RP corelokt 150gr FACTORY Ammo. Swallow that.
Rest my case. Scope power is perhaps over rated for killing, even accuracy/precision.
Eyesight matters. Conditions matter. Familiarity and practice may matter the most.
Great discussion, but let's learn from others experience w/o bashing - Life is too short to get overly serious about these matters
Have a great day folks, and good shooting/hunting!
for all practical purposes, what is better 4 or 6 power? For me I will say 4 power is better for moving and up close shots, then it will do just as well as the 6 on longer shots. I know the old timers like Jack O'Conner thought it was fine for long range. JMO
For big game hunting I prefer a 4x of the two choices. I have several K-4's, a K-3 and a K2.5.
I much prefer a 1.75-6, 2-7 or 2.5-8 to either of them. I like a lower power for brush hunting.
WELL, I own a 4... 2 6s, 2 3X9s 2 12s, a 4 1/2X14, a 6X18 and a 6X20.... Never had a GOOD fixed power scope cause any trouble. 2 weeks before we were to go to the Prairie dog towns, I bought the 6X18 NIKON for my wifes 223. JUNK right out of the box. Took 6 weeks to get it back and have not had any problems with it since. Found a "BARGAIN" on a new in a sealed box Leupold 4 1/2X14 for my new 280 AI. JUNK right out of the box. Took 7 weeks to get it back and have had no problems with it since. Matter of fact the Leupold was sitting on 6 power when I spotted the big black boar @ 284 yards and I cranked it up to 14 and put the 160 gr Nosler Accubon thru both shoulders. Could I have done it with a fixed 6 ?? YUP !! But when I touched that trigger.... I "KNEW" where that bullet was ending up. 2 Bad scopes in near 40 years of shooting ain't too bad. Did I trust the the Leupold after it was bad right out of the box ?? I practiced every day and I cranked that scope from every direction ... every day ... till I was SURE it was a good scope. Do NOT go to war with untested equipment. I have never had a quality scope fail in the field. IF I HAD TO...a 6 power.
I agree that it is probably dependent on your location. Being east of the Miss. I prefer 4x mainly because it is easily powerful enough for game to 300yds + and it doesn't magnify my wobbles as much as a 6x. I must confess however that most of my rifles wear variables these days and I do find the extra magnification nice at the range. Also I am not that hard on my equipment so failures are not a big concern.
I've hunted big game with a LOT of variables, but eventually wondered why, because I almost never changed the magnification from the 4x-6x I set them on in the first place.
Some do see a difference. Obviously: More power to them!
I see a difference probably becuause I have chitty eyesight and need all the help I can get... The last buck I shot at 600 yards was with a 4.5-14x40 cranked up to 14 power. The one before that was at 90 yards and the buck was trotting with 2 does. It was snowing at the time and my buddy stood right next to me with his rifle raised. We both were looking though our scopes and he said.....doe....doe.....doe and I said nope...BANG!!! I had enough time to crank my scope up to 9x and get on the buck and knew what it was. My buddy was peering thru a good ol leupy 6x and couldn't tell one was a buck....Albeit the liquid sunshine was a factor in our visibility but that's just one instance where I've seen a variable work better than a fixed power scope.....It was a good side by side comparison so to speak that helped to convince me. I am, however, very biased as I grew up using a 3-9x40 variable on a sporterized m1917 where I could have filled a few arks with jackrabbits from the high deserts of Northern Nevada.....As they say, "to each his own" definately applies to this conundrum....
I think there may be a few lurking variables here. If you can't see antlers at 90 yards with a fixed 6 Leupy, something is wrong.
I think one should use what they like. I may laugh at the guy with a Hubble mounted on a .30-30 - but it is his money. I suppose that I can say that I like them all. The intended application is the deciding factor. I do tend to buy scopes and keep them. That is, I do not trade for the latest fashion. If it works, it works. My little stable has two 3X, a bunch of 4X, a couple of 2.5-8X, several 3-9X of various makes, and a bunch of 3.5-10X. The variables are mostly set on 5X and left there unless and until a need arises and there is time to change it.
I certainly understand that it was because that is what I was using on that day, but my four longest deer shots were made with 4X (2 each), 3X, and a borrowed 2.5X. These shots ranged from about 275 across a small header canyon, to shots just over 500 paces. On the other hand, my closest shot was at about 12 feet with a .270 wearing a 6X. I was sitting on the stump from a recent hardwood harvest, using some of the fallen tops for a blind, My hunting buddy pushed the buck into my clearing while walking back toward the cabin. The deer sensed me, but never saw me until it was too late. The 6X came up on his head and I squeezed the trigger.
Like the man said, this should be fun - not snobbery, and not a competition - just fun. jack
I've hunted big game with a LOT of variables, but eventually wondered why, because I almost never changed the magnification from the 4x-6x I set them on in the first place.
Some do see a difference. Obviously: More power to them!
I see a difference probably becuause I have chitty eyesight and need all the help I can get... The last buck I shot at 600 yards was with a 4.5-14x40 cranked up to 14 power. The one before that was at 90 yards and the buck was trotting with 2 does. It was snowing at the time and my buddy stood right next to me with his rifle raised. We both were looking though our scopes and he said.....doe....doe.....doe and I said nope...BANG!!! I had enough time to crank my scope up to 9x and get on the buck and knew what it was. My buddy was peering thru a good ol leupy 6x and couldn't tell one was a buck....Albeit the liquid sunshine was a factor in our visibility but that's just one instance where I've seen a variable work better than a fixed power scope.....It was a good side by side comparison so to speak that helped to convince me. I am, however, very biased as I grew up using a 3-9x40 variable on a sporterized m1917 where I could have filled a few arks with jackrabbits from the high deserts of Northern Nevada.....As they say, "to each his own" definately applies to this conundrum....
I think there may be a few lurking variables here. If you can't see antlers at 90 yards with a fixed 6 Leupy, something is wrong.
Back when I was a teenager and growing up, a lot of gunwriters, books, and magazines recommended a fixed 4x scope for hunting. I listened, and had a 4x Widefield with post and crosshair on an old Remington 742 in .30-06. I live in the South, and not the wide open spaces of the West. Shots down here can be close and fast on running deer, so a good field of view can be very useful. When I put scopes on a .30-30 and 444, I put on Leupold 1.5-5x20's. The rest of my rifles wear 3-9's. For more open spaces, a 6x is probably a good choice. For thick woods and swamps, a 4x would seem the better choice to get more field of view. The aforementioned 1.5-6 would seem like the best of both worlds.
I've hunted big game with a LOT of variables, but eventually wondered why, because I almost never changed the magnification from the 4x-6x I set them on in the first place.
Some do see a difference. Obviously: More power to them!
I see a difference probably becuause I have chitty eyesight and need all the help I can get... The last buck I shot at 600 yards was with a 4.5-14x40 cranked up to 14 power. The one before that was at 90 yards and the buck was trotting with 2 does. It was snowing at the time and my buddy stood right next to me with his rifle raised. We both were looking though our scopes and he said.....doe....doe.....doe and I said nope...BANG!!! I had enough time to crank my scope up to 9x and get on the buck and knew what it was. My buddy was peering thru a good ol leupy 6x and couldn't tell one was a buck....Albeit the liquid sunshine was a factor in our visibility but that's just one instance where I've seen a variable work better than a fixed power scope.....It was a good side by side comparison so to speak that helped to convince me. I am, however, very biased as I grew up using a 3-9x40 variable on a sporterized m1917 where I could have filled a few arks with jackrabbits from the high deserts of Northern Nevada.....As they say, "to each his own" definately applies to this conundrum....
I think there may be a few lurking variables here. If you can't see antlers at 90 yards with a fixed 6 Leupy, something is wrong.
When I use a fixed, I always make sure to have the end tab of the Leupold box pinned to my hunting coat. Same when I use a 12Ga to hunt Grouse, even though to some that makes me a heathen. You know, preference from using them over many years has nothing to do with it. It's all about appearing superior. Oh and I also like big fat dots in my hunting scopes. Now who can one-up me on that combination.
I also read just about everything that Phil Shoemaker writes, along with JB and Wayne Van Zowell. I tend to admire experience well communicated. Hell, throw Stick into that group also. The boy certainly knows how to turn a phrase and shoots more than a little.
....I tried to qualify it by using the word "larger variables" and didn't say the large objectives, but should have. The x-12-14 x50s, etc which many use. Then add the SB advocates with steel tubes.
My basic scope is, and has been, the 4x! For me, living at the foothill of the Patagonian Andes, the 4x has never been too little magnification even for the longest shoots, around 350 meters, I have made for Red Deer. I also have two 1,5-6x42, a Zeiss Victory and a Schmidt&Bender Classik, plus a Kahles Helia C 2,5-10x50. These three are really good scopes. But I allways set them at 4x when go hunting! So I tend to use the "muletto" scopes I have for my three rifles (7x57, .30-06 and .375 H&H): a Zeiss Diatal DA 4x32 from the 70�s (Ret. N�1), a Meopta 4x32 (Ret N�4 and a Zeiss Diatal ZA T* 4x32 (also Ret N�4), respectively. Small, light and superb optically. And almost fool proof! For me, it is easier to mount quickly a rifle and aim with a 4x than a 6x. Anyway, possibly I would be equally happy here with simmilar 6x scopes...!!
Put me in the '4' camp as that's what I seem to have - generally a 4X x 33 Leu M8. I have a couple 6X x 36s also, and more 2.5Xs. A 4X shoots MOA groups just fine which is plenty for the hunting I do. Shooting MOA offhand at moving targets is not something I am noted for anyway. A 6 seems perfect for flatter trajectory power delivery vehicles, so I did choose that power for my 340. It's also a nice compromise on something like my 218 Bee.
I don't care who's right or wrong as long as I can get the results I like.
When it comes to variables, I gravitate alot more to 1.5-6, 2-7, 2.5-8x, b/c they work for most of what I do on deer rifles, and they are typically smaller/lighter than the 4-12/14/16 scopes.
If one hunts in a stand and shoots FAR, or does not mind the bulk, no doubt higher power can be put to good use.
Nsagam -
I would be interested if you know/have compared say the 3-9x33 side by side w/a 2-7x33 or 2.5-8x36 and how they compare, eyebox, etc. ER can be found in specs, but the lateral eye relief is something I have to see to gauge - remember a compact 2-7 Nikon years back I had rec'd in a trade, it was more limiting than I wanted. If you use one it must not be too bad.
Back in college I routinely used TC handguns at 100 yds at the bench shooting 1 - 1.5" groups. 2x EER Leupold. My eyes were better then so it would be likely more difficult to see as well today, but the wobble factor and smaller FOV was a headache on 4x and 5x scopes, though I used some to good effect, mostly on squirrels and crows on my 22 and 7TCU. That said a 3x Burris became one of my fav go to scopes having a great balance of power, fov, etc.
So it is w/rifle scopes - the 6x has been my 'go to' fav, but I won't tell someone its the best/right choice for them, if they prefer, or simply see better with more X's - as if it WORKS for them, then it's not a bad choice.
Now if I see a novice or beginner missing or rushing a shot and pulling off, or missing a shot opportunity in the field b/c the FOV was too small w/the power ring cranked up on a variable - then I will suggest they consider less zoom.
Results in the field is the key when it comes to a hunting optic.
As to seeing buttons - I failed to see in GOOD light in a field, the buttons on a deer at 200 yds using my 6-24x that was on my 6BR #1 Ruger, it was legal though when I tripped my 8 oz set trigger and spine shot/DRT the deer.
That was an AO model, later on that rifle I used a side focus version, at 6x I head shot a deer about 45 yds in the woods and from the same stand I dropped a coyote and fox another day at 60 and 100 yds, both running. Effective yes, overly bulky n heavy yes - I had it mounted b/c that gun had unreal accuracy and was used alot at the range (not my primary deer rifle - but I wanted the 6BR to get some play ). I did feel once I needed more than 6x when I head shot a facing coyote at 175 yds, using 12-14x.
So I have used and likely will use a variable on occasion, but I LOVE the simplicity and compactness/light weight of the 6x's that have great ER and FOV.
But back to identifying game, I prefer Bino's, it just seems easier to resolve small detail using both eyes.
Longest kill I've ever made was done with a 4X. Well over 600 yds. To say a 4X is better at close running shots than a 6X is not necessarily true. I'll take any of my 6X42 Leupolds any day at any range over my old 4X Bausch & Lomb. That's because the much longer eye relief allows me to see around the scope alot easier and the much larger eye box allows me to acquire the image faster and more easily. I tend to prefer a 6X42 over my 4X Leupolds simply because I can see fine detail, like twigs and leaves, that might deflect my bullet. But I do use both. I started hunting with scope sighted rifles in 1958. The scope was and always were variables until about 1972. From then until about ten years ago, I used both. Over the years, and often hunting alot of open country in various deserts with two rifles, one with a 6.5-20X and the other with a simple 4X, I noticed a few things. The more i hunted the powerful variable, the less I used the extra magnification. The more I hunted the simple 4x, the more I liked it and never did miss the extra magnification. In the mid 80's, I got my first 4X Leupold which was much easier to use than the B&L 4X. The very powerful 6.5-20X is long gone. But I still have 4X scopes. The 6X42's I started using about 10 yrs. ago have allowed me to do things I couldn't do with my older 4X and variable scopes. To be honest, that had more to do with reticle selection than anything else, but still, I like being able to see and shoot in full darkness. E
Not a gunwriter, but I have went to straight 6x scopes for big game when I get a new scope. The first one was a Leupold 6X42 with HD reticle. I was worried that I could not get "tight groups" with it at the range and what not. Turned out, I shot more consistant. Next was a 6X36 Leupold with P&D reticle. I went to the fixed six for big game for the simple reason that I have found myself in the past fiddling with the magnification ring when I should be shooting. I have never shot a deer with greather than six power even on a variable and that is only out to 220 yards. I have had a variable fail me, but that was fortunately at the range and not the hunting field. I do like fixed 4x for 22LR though.
I have come to like fixed 6 power scopes, though I don't have any at the moment. I have owned 2 or 3 older FXII 6 power Loopies. Sometime I would like to try a FXIII with the 42mm objective.
Hey Guys - I sincerely am not arguing against fixed X scopes.
I'm just stating MY preference.
For the past 8-10 yrs I've been hunting paper co cutovers with visibility up to SO FAR you couldn't see a deer. As the cutovers re-grow visibility slowly decreases. In places where I can see 400 yds now, the vegetation obscures a lot. Deer bodies can be seen moving in/around but can be VERY DIFFICULT to judge antlers. I need hi mag, not just to be legal, but have some idea of what I'm shooting beforehand.
In an earlier post per MD, I mentioned a 6 pt w/ 16 7/8" inside spread. I almost didn't shoot because Ark has a 3 pt on ONE side rule. That deer was at 289 yds lasered. I used 9X and wished I had a 12.
Variables are what I need. YMMV I have no problem with that.
Interesting thread. I happen to be looking for new scope right now and one of the "variables" I'm pondering is fixed or variable magnification. My first real scope was an old Weaver steel tube K-4. I learned to shoot game with a scope with that Weaver and 4x has always seemed about right. I have mostly variables now, but they are essentially operated as fixed scopes. I have just set them at 4x and forgot them for years, although I've been purposely using 6x lately. Either seems fine.
This is a little like the 8x or 10x question in binoculars. What you choose boils down to what you like. What I'm paying more attention to anymore is the reticle. I don't like the way some of the new plex designs have gotten so narrow. Seriously thinking about a German #4. So whichever scope I get will probably get down to how well I like the reticle, which will be a simple, relatively straight forward style. If that reticle is in a Zeiss 3-9x40 Conquest or maybe a Leupold 6x that will mostly determine what I get. Seems like the reticles are an area where there are some differences anymore. 4x vs 6x is not a big deal at all to me, provided the image is clear and the scope durable. If the reticle choice comes in a variable, then I guess it can mostly exist at a fixed 4 or 6, just like the rest of my scopes.
To each his own, these days all I hunt is White Tails in CT and my rifle of choice wears a 6 x 42 mm Leupold. Never had a problem killing the deer I shoot. So its really a moot point. My 338 Winnie has a 3x to 9x Zeiss on it, and with all the game I had shot with it, the scope was either on 4 or 6 power mostly on 6x. Go figure. My only beef with the current crop of fixed powers is the short tubes making mounting on rifles some what of a problem. And according to my journal I have taken a lot of deer with an old Remington 700 for the then new 7mm-08 with a Weaver K-3 steel tube scope. Something I was not suppose to do I guess. 1981 to 1986 were golden years for CT white tail hunting.
The K3's were great scopes--especially the later models with coated lenses!
I've spent some money on a bunch of Leupold M8 4x28 over the past few years, due to their longer tubes. The 4x33 works on may rifles, but the 4x28 is more versatile. Luckily, the 6x Leupolds havem't chaned that much.
Nikon used to make a 6x40 that was marvelous optically, but had a short tube AND eye relief. I had one for a while and finally sold it, because I never could find a rifle it truly worked on.
On the other hand, Burris made a very tough Fullfield II 6x40, with plenty of tube length, good eye relief, and very good optics. But evidently it didn't sell.
How big were the whitetails in those days? I've done some hunting back East, and like it a lot.
For the majority of the hunting that I do (thicks woods and on foot), a fixed 4x would cover all my bases. The 6x scopes just have a little too much magnification for my eyes at certain times. If I lived out west or hunted more open country, I think I'd most certainly prefer the 6x scopes.
The adage, "less is more" works for me when it comes to scope magnification. I love my 1.5-6, 2.5-8, and 2-7 power variables. Coincidentally, they always seem to be set on 4x.
For twenty years, since I quit varmint hunting, the highest magnification scope I have used (or even own for that matter) is a K3. Mostly I use a K2.5 or Lyman Alaskan. They suit my style of hunting and the environment I hunt in- I have never felt at a loss due to low magnification. Kind of a moot point actually, because when afield with a scoped rifle, the scope lives in a leather tube over my shoulder and is slipped onto the rifle when I think I need it, which is almost never. Sometimes I wonder why I lug it around with me.
I started out with 4x scopes now I have some 6x and some 3x9 or higher scopes. They have come in handy from time to time,but are set on 6x most of the time.
I've shot most of my bigger whitetails, 150 to 160 class with a K4 Weaver. Nothing to brag about, but they're nice deer for around here, some shot on public ground.
In 1949 I had a side mount Weaver J 4X scope mounted on a Rem Slide action 22 RF . Learned how to hit running jack rabbits with that rifle. In 1953 I mounted a Weaver K 4X scope on my Mdl70 Win 270 Win..Shot mule deer, pronghorn, elk, prairie dogs and other unwonted criters using the 4X scope on the 270. In 1963 mounted a 3-9 X Redfeild scope on the 270 Win rifle. Set it at 9X and only when hunting elk in the woods would I set it down to 4X. I have two Leopold 6.5-20 X AO scopes mounted on 243 Win and 220 Swift rifles but set then at 18 X to get a larger field of view. There are 6-18 X AO Leupold mounted on the 223 Rem and 204 Ruger varmint rifles. Most all of my hunting in wide open country so I like scopes with more power than 4 or 6 X.
I would happy with just my 6x 42 leopould if limited to one big game scope, and I have a large variety of scopes of varying powers to choose from. My only two scopes that have failed were variables and one was a new VX III 1.5 x 5 that is recomended as the dangerous game scope by a lot of people. It fell apart inside after about 40 heavy loads with a 250 grain partition from my ruger m77 338 wm. Based on my 40 plus years of hunting and living in a remote corner of B.C. I leave my variables set at 6x and unless I am settling in for a 300 + yard shot that seems to be the setting that most of my big game is shot at.
......new VX III 1.5 x 5 that is recomended as the dangerous game scope by a lot of people. It fell apart inside after about 40 heavy loads with a 250 grain partition from my ruger m77 338wm.
REALLY ? ? Are you surprised ? ?
Doesn't surprise me a bit. Not being critical, I've been EXPOSED to that.
JB back in the 1980 to 1986 time period The Deer we would shoot a small one would be around 150 lbs most of the bucks I shot back then were over 200 by a bit. My last big deer I shot, was an old post rut buck and he when just about 200 field dressed and hand no fat on him. he was also 10 years old too. JB that was in 1991 22 years ago, now most of the deer shot where I hunt 150 lbs is considered a big one, 100 lbs is about average. We had fewer deer, but more hunters out so the would drive a lot of deer to my property, now we have more deer that you can shake a stick at, and nobody hunts like they did in the past. The only shooting I heard my whole season last year was my own shot!! Then again, I can shoot 6 if I want to. but one is plenty for me, maybe two. Like that garlic butter post on Facebook.
Years ago I used to hunt with my scope turned to 2x on my 2-7 when walking to and from stand. I also used to judge distant deer with the duplex set on 7x and so this one time I forgot I was on 2x and used it to judge the yardage on a buck, when I shot I missed! I now have a laser range finder so its not a problem.
I ask the question for a back up rifle I am putting together from odds and ends and I have two scopes a 4 & 6 power.
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