Buddy asked me to post up and help him out. He just picked up a Model 70 in 30govt03. He said it's dated to 1948.

I know that's the old 30-03 so curious as to why the barrel would be marked like that?

Any info I could get would be appreciated. Oh, and I haven't seen the rifle either so can't comment on condition.

Since MO is the "Show Me" state, I'd want to see it.

The only Winchester rifle that I recall seeing in 30-03 was the 1895 lever action. I doubt that the Wincehster 54 or 70 were ever cataloged in 30-03 and would think that it would even be less likely for a post-WW2 70 to be chambered in 30-03. If it is real, it must be really rare. My Father was a serious Winchester 54 and 70 collector, having at least 1 in every cartridge ever cataloged, plus a few proto-types that weren't cataloged, but no 30-03s.

Jeff

If I can get a photo of it I will. I did a google search earlier and did find a few of them out there.

Yeah, it floored me also when he said what it was marked as.

I think that upon further inspection he will find that it is marked .30Gov't06. I had an early model 70 with this marking.

Nope, it's 30Govt.03. He double checked and got back with me.

I'm thnking Winchester put both of them out there.

From what I've been able to dig up, there is a 'range' of serial numbers where these were produced in a 'batch'.

There were no Model 70s ever built in that caliber, at least none that I can find in Roger Rule's book. Mr Rule is a member here and maybe he'll chime in. jorge

I have a very early Model 70 [Under 2000]. It is marked .30 Govt '06. I doubt the '03 was ever chambered.

Good luck though.

Out of curiousity, what is mr. Rules screen name??

Very well could have been someone ordered several and then rebarreled them.

Hopefully I'll have some pics on Monday for viewing.

Darned near anything could have come out of R&D...or the custom shop.

I never thought they made the M70 in 405 Winchester....but they did.

Well, even if it ain't orginal, he still came out good on it. He came out smelling like a million roses on the deal. I ain't saying what he paid for it cuz we'll all be puking.

I would ask him to pull the stock off and double check the caliber stamp and year of manufacture on the underside of the barrel next to the indexing line...for instance, the 30'06 was stamped 1906 .....

I would also check and see if it's not a (believe it or not) 30-30!! There are factory verified specimens in this caliber and there were 3 different roll marks for it.

Could it possibly be a '95 levergun barrel in a mod 70 action? I have no idea if the threads are the same.

I did ask him to pull the stock off of it.

I'm just as perplexed as you all.

Dang, that would be a really, really cool rifle

Steve

Steve: It was a cool rifle, a pre war.It was in a glass case at a store I visit once in a great while here in New England....I could see it was a pre war but the barrel was a heavy contour,not unlike a 375H&H or 458, but shorter.Something about the length and contour of the barrel seemed out of place, and and I could not figure what it was,since the 458 was a later cartridge and the action was clearly pre war.

I asked the proprietor if I could see it....and it was indeed factory marked as a 405 Winchester.He told me it was one of two from the custom shop;he had factory letter authenticating it,and no one really knew what happened to the second one.

Price at the time was $17k.The rifle was mint.... There is a footnote or other reference to the 405 having been made in Rule's book somewhere but has been awhile since I looked it up.At one time or another I have seen the hard to find 9mm,the 7.65,and some otherrare birds, but that's the rarest M70 I have yet run into.

This 30Gov't03 thing has me curious....I have seen the 30Gov't06 marking...never '03

Friend Bob,

I worked in a gun store, working my way through college (while also apprenticing goldsmithing and watchmaking).

Ond day a little old man came in with a trade-in; it was a pre-war Winchester Model-70 .30-'06. The stock was really, really light colour walnut and exquisite grade. Serial number 125.

The little old man told me that during the first year of the Model-70, his next door neighbor was the local Winchester representitive and that he'd bought the rifle from the rep.

I bought the rifle from the old man for some rediculous sum ... like $50. And I held onto the rifle for a while. I still remember how very small the low serial number looked upon that really wide receiver bridge.

Eventually, I needed money for another term of college, or maybe it was one of my two apprentice-ships, so I sold the rifle.

The buyer was Lou Leonard, the local pipe shop owner and the guy who had perhaps the finest firearms collection in our area. Lou died not long ago ... he was a fine man and a good friend, but we never discussed Number 125 ... I wish we had; I wish I knew where that incredible rifle ended up.

Off to bed, it's 3AM here. Good night, my friend.

Steve

Steve: We let too many good one's get away....there is a pre war 30Gov't06 with a 5 digit number I wish I had back....

This is very interesting. I look forward to seeing how it turns out.


Sounds like a fantastic old rifle.

Or, it might have been custom shop job.

I once saw an M70 that at first glance appeared to be marked .30 Gov't '03. Upon closer inspection, apparently the stamping tool was not completely in contact with the barrel when struck and the last digit was incomplete in such a way that it could be mistaken as a "3" by someone with a vivid imagination. Another possibility is that the barrel was refinished and enough metal removed around the cartridge designation so as to distort it to make it look like something it isn't.

I would have to see a quality photo of the subject rifle to actually believe it is marked 03. Not calling anyone a liar, just mistaken, though I could also be mistaken. It happened once.

Was that the time you thought you were wrong but were actually right?

Bingo!

I would assume all, if not most of the Winchester M1895s in
.30-03 have been rechambered to .30-06.

As I recall the only difference is that the distance from the shoulder is a tad longer on the 03. Our family has a 95 and always shot factory 06 in it. We still have it. It is the gun I killed my first deer or two. It also accounted for a fair number of elk.

When I was in high school, I had a friend whose mother inherited 2 Win. 1895's from her father; one was in 30-03 and he other was a 30-40 Krag. I offered to buy one of them but the offer was declined. I've always wondered where they ended up.

I have in my hand, a new barrel, real pre-64, marked, Model 70

30gov't06. agree the one being talked about might have been polished for re-blue, or something, and destroyed part of the designation. The one I have appears to have never been on a rifle, so the markings are bright and clear.

I would say he is wrong...no deadfuggin wrong!

By 1948 the 30-03 was long dead and gone. Even the first run Springfields were converted to 30-06 about 43 years before that.

I have eight or nine M1895's here and one is a .30-03. I would think you could rechamber a .30-06 to .30-03 but you could not rechamber a .30-03 to .30-06. I say this because the .30-03 is a bit longer, I believe the neck is longer. The use of .30-06 cases works fine in the .30-03 but I suspect the other way around is not true.

Right. Also, the 270 is pretty much the 30-03 necked down.

Thanks for the benefit of the doubt. I am very aware of the history of the 30-03 and that's why I'm very curious and hesitant to believe myself, but this guy has never steered me wrong.

Not to mention a member here has sent me some information that may in fact conclude that it is possible some Model 70 actions had a 30-03 barrel put on them.

Thanks for being a dick, really warms my heart, not.

You're most welcome.

Winchester would custom build one, and therein lies about the only possibility.

Don't be so sensitive. I wasn't calling you or him any names. I see you're not quite so polite.

I won't believe him until I see some good photos of it, and if it is a 30-03, he is a wealthy man.

If you knew me you'd know I'm one of the most polite, generous people out there. You're initial reply just got my dander up some as the way it was worded "deadphucking wrong" implied to me I was a liar.

I understand being dubious on the whole deal. I am myself and have said that many times.

Alls well and have a good one.

You too, my friend.

I have no hard feelings whatsoever. If this really is in 30-03 your friend has something a Mdl 70 collector will kill for.

I had NIB with hanging tags a 270 with a serial # 1270. I knew where it came from and the former owner. He had bought it new and tucked it away all those years, until 1979, when I bought it from his widow.

I also saw one in 9X57 once. It could be that he has an '03. It is just highly improbable. Maybe I should have said things this way.

The base to shoulder dimensions on both the .30/03 and .30/06 are identical. The .30/03 has a longer neck. .30/06 cartridges can be fired with no problem from a .30/03 chamber.

.

Only the uninformed will say that Winchester NEVER made a ________ (fill in the blank).

Now that is a fact , Winchester did some strange things back in the day !I know where there's a M70 Carbine in 30-30 , a lot of people will tell you they never nade that one either .

My Grandpa said, "Almost never say always or never".

If you read Rule's book you would be suprised at the calibers
that were in the R&D department and never left the factory.
What are the chances of finding a Springfield 03 in .30-03?
But then again how could you tell, as the calibers werent stamped on them.

I've thought about this topic for a while. In the deep recesses of my mind I have the vaguest of possible recollections that Winchester made a group of these in this caliber. Again, this is just a possible recollection from years ago. I've been a Winchester collector for the past 35+ years but not a M70 collector.

Why would they even consider a 30-03? It was long dead and replaced with the better-designed 30-06.

I love unusual guns of all sorts and actually hope to heck this is a genuine 30-03. I'd be thrilled to see some photos and chamber castings if it is.

Me too.......it's very interesting.

Does anyone know if Winchester ever made a rifle in .30-03? I am thinking that it might be a .30-06, but somehow got stamped wrong.

A close examination of the chamber would give the actual chambering.

Then, you could start the research from there: If it is chambered for .30-06, the place to start would be to determine how .30-03 got stamped on the barrel.

If the chamber is .30-03, then a search would be in order as to when and why Winchester made a M70 barrel in this caliber.

As someone said, the .30-03 has been obselete for many years, and I can't see Winchester making a .30-03 barrel for a cartridge this old. Maybe it was a slow day in the custom shop and someone got bored.

Or, it could be what it is thought to be: a original M70 that left the factory chambered for .30-03 and stamped as such.

Yes, The model 95. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, pulling the stock off and inspecting the barrel marks underneath might provide more answers than questions. What I'm wondering is if a errant 95 barrel somehow made its way into the mdl 54 barrel bins and then eventually on to a mdl 70. Most of the odd caliber 70's were made up from left over 54 barrels. It would seem unlikley that a barrel would go that far through the machining process without being noticed though, especially since the extractor cut would have to be made on a naked barrel to fit it up to a bolt rifle and the finished rifle would have to be proofed. Another possibility is that the rifle was a back door rifle made by one of the employees from parts, another reason there are some real oddball chamberings out there.

Just took a photo of the caliber stamping on my M1895 .30-03. I am aware that there was more than one style of stamping this caliber on the M1895.

That is something very special, IMO!

Veerrrry

My 1895 is stamped the same. My 1895 was made in 1915 according to Madis. It does seem odd that the caliber hung on as long as it did.

Do you have some other photo's of the rifle? Really interesting, and I have learned a long time ago to never guess that something was "impossible" to come across...

Dennis

Knowing nothing about Win Model 70's, I do know a little about how guns could be ordered back in the early days. Marlin Ballards have always been one of my favorites. Especially factory original ones. I have a #10 Schuetzen with all matching numbers, buttplate, extractor, stocks, etc. A Remington 38-55 barrel on it with the same number made by the same stamps. If someone wanted it, they could get it.

I may have to take some more photos of my '95 in .30-03. Here are some photos of another '95 I have that I thought was more interesting to photograph. It is a special order musket and the museum letter indicates it has been back to the factory several times. It has a special order 32 inch barrel and I really wish this gun could talk

Just snapped a few more pictures of my .30-03. Like the other one mentioned, mine was also manufactured in 1915. I see George Madis states that the .30-03 was added in 1905. He states, "When the 30-'06 was added in 1908, the 30-'03 was available on special order only." So, that would mean mine and the other one mentioned were special order rifles. I would really enjoy knowing what prompted the buyers to special order these rifles in .30-03 when the .30-06 had been available for seven years.

WOW!!! Whats the caliber stamp??.. 30/40??

Back in those days, the 30-03 in military circles was also known as .30-45. I have a sizer die for my Ideal Armory press that is marked thusly.

The rifle I pictured is a .30-03. The musket is a .30-40 (marked .30 US) and given we have shown a rifle and a musket, might as well throw a carbine in (this one is .30/40 although the '95 carbine was chambered in the .30-03 and I have seem many examples over the years):

This is something I did not know

Very nice carbine, boltman. I see the repro 95 carbines for
sale, but give me an old one anyday.

And is ever but so rarely mentioned... very cool sizer die!!!!! and thanks for confirming my suspicion... I had a strong inclination it was a 30/40 and it's a damn nice one too! Thanks for sharing it.

BD

Was this because it used 45 grains of powder?

That was a special purpose rifle, designed to use in long range matches.

The shooter would lie on his back, feet toward the target and use his feet as a rest, then sight through the sight on the back of the buttstock.

Any pics yet?

Not yet. Hopefully soon. Get out the popcorn.

Heads or Tails, it'll be interesting.

I wish he'd hurry up. It shouldn't take that long to Photoshop an 06 to an 03.....

Laffin...

You mean like these?



Just fooling around while we wait for the M70 .30-03 pictures

I have seen old black and white drawings of shooters using the
sights on the butt stock, but the rifles used were rolling blocks or Sharps. Very interesting.

The above rifles dominated the match shooting world a bit of 100 years ago. Very accurate weapons shot at incredible distances. I certainly find them interesting

Perhaps someone ordered a 30-03 from the custom shop.

Why would they do this?

Originally, the 30-03 was designed to shoot a 220 grain bullet. When they switched to a 150 grain bullet, they shortened the neck a bit and we call that the 30-06. (All the Springfield '03 rifles were recalled and the barrels were shortened from 24 inches to 23.790 inches.)

Perhaps someone in the 1940s wanted to hunt stuff with 220 grain bullets and specified the 30-03 for that reason, though 220 grain bullets work fine in the 30-06.

Maybe some old rifle looney had a couple boxes of the old 30-03 ammo. Good of an excuse as any to get Winchester to build him a rifle.


Mike

I just finished reading an article in Guns and Ammo by Craig Boddington on the 30-06, good article by the way, and if I understood it correctly he states that indeed the 06 has a shorter neck, but this was done by moving the shoulder out. This allowed a 03 to be fired in a 06 chamber, but not the other way around. I wonder if some of the older 1895 -03s had a -06 reamer ran thru them and not marked? Don't have a dog in this fight, just reporting what I THINK I read. I've been wrong so many times I've quit counting.

I know '06 cases drop into my '03 chamber fully and without any forcing. Of course, I haven't had the rifle since it was new so whether someone ran an '06 reamer into the chamber is something I can't say. For decades I was operating with the information that an '06 would chamber in an and '03 chamber but not the other way around. I am aware that lots of stuff that appears in print is not correct, so if Boddington has more definitive information I am open to it.

boltman, I went back and reread the article and Boddington talks about the "shorter necked .30-03" in the same article and now I wonder if he got his -03 and his -06 designations mixed up. Hope I haven't confused everything. Wish someone else would read this month's Guns and Ammo and tell me what I seem to be missing. I'm easily confused. Sorry about the confusion... Chuck

Boddington got it backwards. Neck of '03 was shortened by .07".

The neck length of the '06 is .007" shorter than the 30-03, The OAL case length is shorter also. When the 1903 was recalled from service, the barrels were replaced if neccesary due to excessive heat caused by high amounts of nitroglycerine in the powder which gave a barrel life of between 700 and 1000 rounds. Barrels that were found to be in good condition were shortened and rechambered to the new,shorter 30'06 and loaded with 150gr bullets. The leade in the throat was changed also.

Hope to see a photo of the Model 70 30-03.

I think either the camera is broken or the rifle doesn't exist.

Well, the camera did get broken at the Lake last weekend said my pal.

Anyway, he updated me on some info. He said he found an old article talking about how Winchester had an ".06" stamp break and tried to modify a ".03" stamp to work. He said he put a magnifying glass to it and said you could tell there was a faint outline that looked like a "6", but was not seeable with the naked eye. According to him the barrel hasn't been refinished. He didn't tell me what/if the markings were on the bottom side of the barrel so hopefully will get that info soon.

I did tell him he still ought to do a chamber cast just to see.

Hopefully I can see it in the near future to see what it looks like.

Therefore, breakout the tar and feathers, crow casserole or crow however you want to cook it, and flame throwers. I've got my asbestos suit on.

I'll go sit in the corner for a bit.

Heeler-
Before you toddle off to the corner, could you ask your friend about the source of the old article he found? "Article" may indicate a magazine.


Here's a thread in another forum site that discusses the problem. Pre 64 Winchester Mdl 70 Barrel Marking. Is this where you found the information?

Thanks.
--Bob

This is quite interesting. I mentioned before I had the vague recollection of hearing of a group of .30-03's. Perhaps this was a, "group" that were marked with the damaged stamp?

Not to veer too far from the topic, but I have always been amazed at seeing rifles with barrels from some well-respected gunsmiths that look like the chambering was stamped on the barrel with no thought to aestheics whatsoever.

He's waiting for the same photographer that was going to photograph Lee24's South Carolina Made 375 H&H Model 70......

Bingo ;;I bet we have a winner as that is what I was thinking. someone had a set up to make bullets for the 30-03 and diden't want to change.I would of done it

Why does Lee24 keep coming to mind?

i also have a model 70 marked 30govt03 but it wont let me add a picture, im pretty sure the bottom of the barrel reads 1908 46

Two other possibilities;

First, the owner wanted to shoot cast bullets and the shorter '06 neck wouldn't cover all of the grease grooves on his favorite projectile.

Second, his thinking was old fashioned "longer neck is better" ala the Krag and the old black powder and semi-smokeless cartridges of the day. Longer neck means more consistent case neck tension, straighter bullet seating, better grip on long projectiles, etc...

I can remember folks fussing about the .300WM as being not as capable of fine accuracy as other cartridges because it has such a short neck in relation to its caliber.

Who knows. It can be entertaining, trying to figure out why folks did something.

Ed

In the early days after 1906 I read that people would order a rifle for the heavy 220grain in .30/03 and if they wanted the 'newist thing' speedster they would get it in .30/06 because the standard load was 150 grain bullet. ( This was talking about the '95)

Well if the 270 vs 30-06 debate is not esoteric enough we can start an 03 vs 06 thread.

Maybe we should get a 24HCF 30-03 reamer to share.

"What are the chances of finding a Springfield 03 in .30-03?"

I saw one at the Maryland Gun Collectors show in May in pristine condition. The price (which I forget) was accordingly high!

bla,bla,bla

When I fist saw this thread I was sceptical but curious. As the thread went on, I went from sceptical to doubtful. The news that the camera was broken removed almost all doubt. I am considering chambering a 30/03 just to have one. I'll bet it just kicks the crap out of an '06. GD

I was doubtful too. greydog,... you won't have to trim brass as often either....

A couple years ago there was a picture of one on either here or Accurate Reloading's web-site with a close up picture of the 30-03 marking. When it comes to P64 M70's just about anything was possible but I found it odd that it was on a post war gun as I would assume any 30-03 M70 would be a very early pre war.

I have a .30-03 M-95 but have never seen a M-70 so stamped.

Some oddities are post-64 reinventions of Winchester history. Couple 9x57 M-70s (IIRC, consecutive SNs) built in the '80s.

I too have an early M70 with that marking.

Extremely nice 95!

NEVER HEARD OF A PRE-64 WINCHESTER MODEL 70, IN 30-03 GOVERNMENT!

Can't find it listed anywhere! That Cartridge Has been Obsolete since 1906!
Doesn't mean that Someone, didn't do something unusual!

Need Pics. to Verify!!!

Winchester did make mistakes.
There's always a possibility.
Never know if someone put it together for whatever reason.

I'd really like to see detailed pics to help Verify!

Never know!

Anything's possible!!!

Laffin..... my exact thoughts as well 😲

I have a 1902 Win 1895 in 30/40 Krag that is marked "30 US"
I have a 1950 Win M70 in 30-06 that was marked "30 GOV 'T.' 06-" that is now a take off barrel.

Holy thread resurrection, Batman !

Heeler, it’s been 9 years already. Did your buddy get his camera fixed yet?

If you go back in the thread, you will find, at the same time the camera broke, it was discovered the "3" just might have been a poorly stamped "6".
I'm reminded of the time I sold a Krag at a gunshow during the brief rifle registration period here in Canada. On the Krag, the serial number had been recorded as an "8" when it was plainly a "3". Nonetheless, I was able to convonce the RCMP officer who was doing the checking that it was, indeed, an "8" and the sale went through without a hitch. About three months later the registry was abolished so it didn't matter anyway. GD

We've been waiting that long?

This a 1929 produced model 54 I have in a 30-06

THAT DOES HAPPEN!

Holy fock me running backwards, Batman. Forgot about this thread. Don’t know if the camera ever got fixed. If it did I never got the pics. Lol

Damn, y’all gonna make me wear the dunce hat again? 😂

At this point I would just say that he sent the Kodak film off to be developed … and leave it at that

Well, he was from Kansas….

This thread reminded me a little of the end of a 2-week trip Eileen and I made to Namibia in 1999. We mostly hunted big game, but also wanted to do some upland bird hunting, so brought her Beretta over-under, which we could both shoot well.

When we were going through Namibian customs when leaving through Windhoek airport, we handed our papers and the guns to the customs guy. He started insisting the serial number on the Beretta did NOT match the papers, and the situation was getting a little sticky when our professional hunter showed up--and after looking over our shoulders at the shotgun, turned it around on the bench.

The serial number was all 0s, 6s and 9s, and all of a sudden it was correct!

It ain't just Africa 😂.

I suspect it could have been incorrectly stamped by a worker with a Monday morning hangover.

After reading this old projected and long recurring discussion, I went and did a google search and found this jewel posted on another web site. This might project this topic into a few more years of doubt and debate. Is this evidence that there may have been some Mod 70s stamped in 30Gov03 ?? I wonder ?

https://www.gunvaluesboard.com/can-...ster-model-70-.30-govt-03-is-331314.html

And the beat goes on !

CJ

To this Date, there is no Certified proof, to verify such claims!

Per the WACA Web site!

There has been 30-GOV'T-06, CHIPPED ROLL DIE STAMPED, CALIBER MARKINGS!

This debate has gone on for several yrs. now, mainly due to one Rifle mfg. in 1948, that to the Naked eye, sure looks like a 30-03 caliber, but no proof, has come forward to verify!
When you put it under magnification, it's plain as day it's a 30-06!

It's not RARE, it's not Factual, so at this point in Time, it's still Speculation, until proven with records!

YES it is amazing. I have read this thread all the way thru and enjoyed it.
I read posts of members no Longer with us or no longer participating.

THANKS for resurrecting it.

Jerry