First time post. I am going hiking on the Appalachian Trail in 2 weeks, and wondering what some thoughts are on loads and guns for carrying along. I have a Smith 21 .44 Spl and a Smith 57 .41 Mag. I also have a Super Redhawk .480, but I am not considering it (too big and heavy). There is a very slim chance of black bear, which are fairly small in the Southern Mountains, and cougar. More worrisome are the two legged rats on the trail. I had a cousin and her boyfriend murdered in their tent on the trail back in the 80's. No rape, no robbery, just shot in their sleep for the @#$$ of it. No gun in the world would have helped them, but I am still taking one. I went back and re-read some old articles by Brian Pearce, and I am looking for opinions on which caliber and whether to go with some of the hot Buffalo Bore hard cast loads or something like the Hornady XTP loads. I also have my eye on one of the Ruger Blackhawks .44 Spl built on the .357 frame. ( I am basically just looking for a reason to buy it, it seems it would be less bulky to carry. Any help is greatly appreciated.

8 grs Unique 210 grs SWC for your 41 Mag M57 1100-1200fps depending on barrel length. Good DA load and still plenty a power. Magnum Man

I dont think you need to worry about mt lion either

what you mentioned with any ammo will be fine, although a 22 rimfire wouuld be some entertainment.

the little "judge" is fairly popular or the above with some snake shot may come in handy?

its a little late to suggest buying a new gun.. but this is my answer to your question.



12 oz 357, I carry a full power 158g load in it.

Glock 20 (10mm Auto) or Glock 22 (40 S&W) would my choice of a trail revolver.

If you really want to limit how many rounds you've got, get a Kahr P45. Light as a feather, 6+1 of .45 ACP, and a trigger very similar to a DA revolver pull.

Either of your S&W's would be perfect but for a self-defense gun I would take the .44 Special. Plenty of oomph for small blackies & cougars and the lower recoil makes it more controllable if you need to engage anything with two legs.

I would urge you not carry a SA revolver for self-defense. Learn to use one of your DA revolvers accurately (read that as "practice"). In fact, I would carry the S&W that has the DA pull that feels best to you. You also need to put a good number of rounds thru it in DA firing to make sure the main spring tension hasn't been unduly messed with. I have a S&W .357 that was perfect in SA firing but would misfire about 1in 6 in while shooting DA because of light primer strikes.

You also need to make sure the loads you carry will fall out of the chamber. A defensive situation is no time for sticky extraction...ya, and make sure the cylinder is kept clean as well...for the same reason.

Lastly, spend a LOT of time doing dry fire practice so you have the feel of the DA etched into your brain and trigger finger. Most S&W revolvers have a DA pull that if you practice enough can be shot DA but in a manner that is very much like shooting SA. Find an old timer PD who had to carry an S&W that was department modified to shoot "DA-only" and he can show you. There is a point in the DA stroke that the cylinder has fully rotated and "locked" but the hammer hasn't fallen. When learned, you can pull the trigger DA and hold the hammer for a single action feel release...and brought to bear very quckly. Learn to shoot this way and you won't ever need to shoot SA again...or want to.

I would take which ever one is lighter. Load the .44 with a 240-250 grain hard cast SWC and the .41 with a 210-220 grain of the same design. Push either bullet to 950-1000 fps and you will be well protected from 2 or 4 legged threats. Never turn your back to anyone you run into in the back country, no matter how friendly they appear. Have fun!

Ron

How many of the people who've responded so far have actually shot a black bear, mountain lion or 2-legged varmint with their choice of "hiking revolver"?

Just curious, partly because of all the threads on the the perfect deer/elk/Cape buffalo/mongoose cartridge or bullet.

S&W 642 38 Special with Crimson Trace grips.

Although a Ruger SR22 in 22 LR would have 10 plus an extra mag.

I doubt the bears will be impressed with either, but the bandits will.

Even though I've hiked in bear and mountain lion country, the only dangerous animals that I've encountered on the trail were vicious dogs and rattle snakes. It doesn't take that much power to dispatch a dog if you can shoot accurately.

MD,

I've plinked at a few "two legged varmints" but it was not with my hiking revolver, and it wasn't in this country, and it for damn sure wasn't "camping." I carry a Glock 32 in 357 Sig sometimes when hiking, but it's heavy and I don't know if it'd do much on bears or lions if I encounter one.

The AT is a LONG hike and I'm not sure anything other than bear pepper spray is required for any of the circumstances in the OP's original question.

But, he asked about revolvers.

What pistol do you own now?

If your not familiar with any sidearm then the simplest to operate is a medium framed revolver loaded with factory .38 Special Jacketed Hollow Point bullets.

If your intent is to buy one I'd suggest you consider a used Ruger SP101 with a three inch barrel chambered for .38 Special or 357 Magnum.

To answer John Barsnes's question. I've never shot a human and hope that I never need to. Nor have I ever pointed a weapon at someone. I consider a concealed weapon an indispensible tool if I ever need one.

I appreciate all the input. I have considered an SP101 for quite some time now, I just never bought one. I have never owned a 357, but I have used a Smith Model 65 extensively years ago and I enjoyed shooting that. I normally carry a 1911 in 45 acp loaded with XTP's. I occasionally have need to carry a Beretta 84 in 380 and a a SIG P238 as backup, both loaded with XTP's. I am fairly proficient with all my guns, semi's and revolvers, or I would not be around go on a hiking trip to celebrate my 10 year anniversary. I HAVE had the misfortune of dispatching two legged rats both with an M14 and a 1911, in several different s#%@hole countries. The .44 Spl and 45 acp are pretty identical power wise in my book with similar loadings, and I know first hand what a 45 will do to a man. I was mainly wondering whether the loads I would use to stop a man (XTP's, Hydra-Shoks, etc) would provide enough penetration on a bear, even if it is relatively small compared to the bears out west, or to go with the hotter hard cast bullets. I am not much of a hunter, but everything I read leads me to believe that pound for pound, some animals can take a lot more than people. Again, thank you all.

How about that new Ruger SP 100? The five shot, 4 inch "kit gun". Take a few snake shot, a few 38's and a few full power 357's and hit the trail.

If I had to choose from what I have it would be my Taurus 44 mag tracker.

enjoy your trip and leave your heavy metal at home... a portable motion detector available for ~ $20 should let you sleep well...

David,

I figured you might be one of those who'd shot at one of the varmints mentioned.

My question wasn't directed at those with actual experience. Few of us have had to fend off any of the three large varmints mentioned in the original post. I certainly haven't, but the majority still offered firm opinions. Was just wondering about their experience.

As a guy that backpacks on occasion, I highly recommend you carry whatever weighs the least.



Travis

I have killed deer, grouse, snakes, and porcupines with 45 ACP, 38 Special, and .22 Rimfire revolvers on the trail during my 35 years of hiking and woods rambling.

I killed a mountain lion with a 300 Weatherby once, and was glad to have such a powerful arm, but I have tried to stalk them since then carrying a 220 Swift, and would do it with a 22 Magnum lever action rifle, but not a 38 Revolver.

My experience has me carrying a light rifle more often these days. T/C Carbines can be built as light as 44 ounces in 35 Remington, a serious cartridge for any of the mentioned purposes.

Most of my hiking is in the Siskiyous Mountains, and the nearby Marbles and Trinitys.

On long hikes I often carry my Taurus Ultra light Model 85 38 Special. The reason is because weight becomes burdensome on long hikes.

For day hikes I like my Model 625 in 460 Rowland, I loaded a pile of Speer shot capsules up with number 12 shot years ago, and one of them travels in the number one position. Number 12 is the bomb on snakes.

I think the next trail gun I buy will be a Kel-Tec PMR-30 in 22 Magnum. Then I wouldn't have to carry any extra ammo.

What Travis said.

I'm in the mid fifties and everything weighs more after mile ten.

The thing I learned "down range" was that everything is too #%^*in' heavy, even for the young Soldiers and Marines.

Pepper spray works on all concerned and involves less paperwork when effectively employed, I'm told.

I'd hate to have to know how you'd advise the police and what you'd have to do to demonstrate fear of injury.

Also, check the gun laws along the route. Some ain't friendly.

i normally carry a 38 special airweight in non grizzly country with a couple of shot cartridges included for rattlesnakes

or if i think i might need better accuracy i go with my walther pp 32 auto. it's a bit heavier

or in grizzly country i don't leave home without my ruger super blackhawk 44 magnum with hardcast 300 grain bullets

Travis said "As a guy that backpacks on occasion, I highly recommend you carry whatever weighs the least.



Travis"

And I agree one hundred percent, at least. I'm headed for grizz habitat tomorrow and was going to take my heavy Ruger Bisley in .45 Colt but decided to cut back to the old S&W model 19 in .357 loaded with 180 gr. hardcast and probably wont need that. Hope so, anyhow.

Travis, I'm gonna wander up to the lake where you went either later this week or first of next week. Any advice to pass along? Wishin I had some good lookin' chick to carry my pack but no such luck.

I have hiked a bit of the AT and lived for many years along its route, in Hanover, NH, but never encountered anybody or anything that bothered me other than dogs, mosquitos, flies (Black/Deer/Horse). When I go off the beaten track, I generally carry a small Rossi 720 with 2 CCI shot cartridges and 3 240 grain SWCs.

Jeff

Or a Glock 23. The Buffalo Bore .40 +P 180 FMJs and JHPs are listed at 1100.

Expat

Personally, for the AT I'd not be worried about animals other than the two-legged kind. I'd carry an HK P2000SK in 9mm. Small, fairly light and 10+1 ultra-reliable rounds of Peace of Mind.

Yeah, the last mile is a beatch. Go slow. Bring beer.


Travis

Great point and I always carry spray if I remember to bring it.

But here are a "thousand words" on why guns are more better.



Travis

My answer after having a few is a 357PD 4" in 41 Magnum. Tried the 629 4" really got heavy on the hip. Had a 586 357 Magnum in 6" try sitting down with that on the hip. Given that you have a model 57 then I would pick it. The 357PD is perfect for me, light weight, not brutal to shoot and power enough for anything that should be shot with a revolver.

I agree with those who advocate the lightest gun with adequate power. I just finished backpacking across the Wallowa Mountains in NE Oregon. I carried a Glock 36 .45 ACP. It weighs only 20 oz. (27 oz. w/ a full mag) and has a 3.8 inch barrel with a 6+1 capacity.

Thankfully I have never needed to use a firearm to defend against either an animal or a person but it seems to me that in the case of a problem black bear something that penetrates well would be what you want. Phil Shoemaker has written about handguns for brown bear defense and he advocated loads that penetrate well. Though a black bear is generally smaller I would think the same principles apply. Any load that might work on a bear should be plenty for cougars, wolves, humans etc.

I carried one mag of +P 230 grain truncated cone FMJ (from Buffalo Bore) and another mag of 230 grain Federal HST. Buffalo Bore says this FMJ load was designed with black bears in mind. There are many possibilities but my Glock 36 is light, compact and reliable. I shoot Glocks a lot so this was a natural choice for me.

Phil also advocates for a 357 mag with 180 hardcast, and I believe him. I think his daughter (Tia?) carries a smith in 357 as her backup while guiding.

A heavy bullet with sharp edges punches holes in stuff.

'course, a 357 Sig with the 124 grain, and 14 of them with 13 in the mag and 1 in the pipe ala Glock 32, isn't anything to laugh at, either.

The problem with guns on camping trips where there are a lot of other people is most folks aren't used to knowing where it is, exactly where it is, 24/7. If you misplace the pepper spray, no biggy...the revolver may require a trip back, routing around, calling the PD, etc., etc.

I have spent most of my life in bear country and have killed 2 grizzlies, 3 black bears, one mountain lion, with everything from a 25-35 to a 30-378.

I just bought a 4 inch Python for hunting in bear country, because of the size, manageability and power factor of a fully loaded 158 grain Jacketed bullet. I have a Smith and Wesson model 57, but it is a long barrel at 8 3/8 inches, so I wanted a smaller framed gun, smooth and pointable when firing double action.

I had a Taurus Titanium 41 magnum, but once you fired it, you would rather be mauled by a bear. I sold it and decided to use the Python. I haven't had to, but we did run into a grizzly last fall and the fellow that hunted with us, just bought a 4 inch model 57 in 41 mag just in case. He did mess his pants and you won't find him sleeping in a tent this fall...

When I was a young man, I jumped out of an airplane and landed in strong crosswinds. I panicked and instead of just pulling one of the lines to collapse the chute, allowed myself to be dragged across a road with heavy traffic. The view from ground level of people trying not to run over you is interesting, at least.

When I finally took control of the situation and the chute, a truck with my friends pulled up and I had a wet spot on the front of my jeans.

"Drug you through a puddle?"

"%$^* no," I replied, "I pissed my pants!"

In retrospect, that story is funny. I guess they all are when you're alive to tell them.

The AT goes through New Jersey and you ain't allowed to carry in the Communist State of New Jersey and if your a non resident the cops treat you worse.

Unless New Jersey has changed it's laws. Hollow Point ammo is illegal for civilians.

HPs are legal to possess, just don't use 'em or you'll be in the brown sauce.

I faced the same issue when I hiked the Appalachian and other Trails. I have several S&W "N" frames (44 Mag), too heavy when packing a heavy pack. I found a used S&W Model 64 ("K" frame, 38 Special, +P rated) with a 4" barrel. I carry it in a large fanny pack and load it with Buffalo Bore 38 Special 158 gr. "Ourdoorsman" loads.

With about 475 ft. pounds of muzzle energy, it works well for eastern hiking and kayaking. It is enough for black bear and two legged varmints and, the Model 64 is light and easily to carry.

Buffalo Bore website: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=291

As I've mentioned before, I shot a Grizzly in Montana wilderness 52 years ago with a Ruger Blackhawk 44 Magnum. Following a bad bear attack, I bought the pistol for working in the back country. It was light and easy to carry, but the hammer would bloody my hand after a few shots - it was just too light for shooting with heavy loads.

For griz country hunting, I'd consider the 44 Mag as a minimum; but in the East, a 357 Mag or (Buffalo Bore) 38 Special +P load would be enough for black bear.

I am liking my 329pd for hiking.Plenty of power and light weight too!

3" SP101 loaded with the SD load of your choice. The 2-legged threat is far greater than being attacked by a black bear or cougar.

I have to qualify this by stating that I've never shot a bear, cougar, or human, but I have had close encounters with two of the three in which having a gun made me more comfortable, and confident in my actions. For trail use I have a Smith model 60 with 3" barrel that I carry with the FBI load, since it is a bit rambunctious with full house .357 loads in DA. I also carried speedloaders, one with more FBI load, and one with wadcutters for small game use. I have used the gun for rampaging squirrel and rabbits, and it works well. I have every confidence that it would work for larger critters, too. It carries well in a good holster, and is light enough for protracted carry.

W/O buying a new gun, the 21 is going to be lighter than the .41 or the .480. Slimmer contour barrel, bigger holes in the steel. I have (and love) a stainless Ruger 4 5/8" .44 special, but I doubt it saves any weight over the 21.

I suppose you could get it somewhere here, but bears are scarce in my normal haunts, so bear spray is not on the shelves. I can tell you that wasp and hornet spray works on other than flying insects-and works well.

While vacationing in Colorado this summer, my wife spotted a bear across the small lake in front of the house. She called me and we watched as it worked its way around the shore line, across a gravel road, and on up the mountain. There were hikers on a trail who never saw the bear. When Mr. Bear saw the hikers, he changed directions to avoid them. The hikers never knew he was there. Now he did come back one night to try the trash (no luck) and he did get into our Mule. I guess he couldn't get it started. Tracks and a few scratches in the paint were evidence.

Best wishes for a fun trip. jack

Good point...but then again I haven't shot a human either. My response was based on the personal recommendations of a guy who runs dogs after bears/lions here in Idaho who has treed and been involved in the killing of probably several hundred of them in the past 25 years...and police officers who have shot two-legged vermin in the line of duty.

When I backpack (usually 35-45 pound pack) a chest rig is what I use to carry my 3" 629. This summer I used a very cheap and simple Blackhawk IWB nylon holster clipped to the inside of my packs sternum strap. Worked great.

My favorite hiking revolvers are my S&W AirLites, a M-360 3" .357, or my M-329 4" .44 Mag.

Very pleasant to carry, yet lots of power available should it be needed. Pleasant to shoot with light loads for practice or vermin. Rust is less of a concern than with blue guns.

No experience shooting bares, katz, or peoples but the SP101 in .357 has been mentioned a couple of times. Since the OP didn't list one....and if he's going to buy one....get the new model with the 4.2 inch barrel. I've been carrying one since early this spring while working on the farm, mainly for gophers and snakes. Great little revolver. Not to heavy to carry in a good holster, heavy enough to shoot mag loads, slim design, great sights, long enough barrel to use the mag loads, sweat resistant finish....

I doubt you have any need for it, but it's a first round pick in the Ultimate Hiking Revolver draft.

Since the greatest threat will be of the two-legged variety the following link should prove interesting to those who carry a gun for defense.

The person writing the article is works for County Medical Examiner in a morgue in Atlanta. He has first-hand experience examining in detail the affects of bullets on flesh and bone.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/concea...t-performance-different-perspective.html

Is the Appalachian Trail that dangerous these days? Last time I hiked it was in summer camp with a bunch of other 11 and 12 year old boys. We went about 50 miles through North Carolina and northern Georgia. The most dangerous weapons we carried were cans of Vienna sausage.

I think we were more terrified of the 16 to 18 year old counselors running us ragged and forcing us to do all of their chores than any wild animals. But then, they were definitely a sadistic and malicious bunch of SOB�s.

We don't have any Mongooses here or Cape Buff but the handgun I carry while hiking without a rifle,will penetrate a Cape Buffalo's shoulders(both) exit and kill the one standing next to it...

Not sure about Mongooses though!

Jayco

Before anyone calls BS and things go South..Here is part of it from Rifle Magazine....



Jayco

I have used a Browning Hi-Power in .40 S&W to dispatch wounded deer, pronghorns and hogs. It worked as good as anything else I have tried and made a compact carry package. A Glock .40 would be comparable. My favorite hiking pistol is an S&W Model 66 with 125-grain CorBons. I have used that pistol and load to take several lions over dogs and to finish off wounded animals.

Of the two that you have, I would choose the .44 Special and load it with Hornady 180-grain XTP factory ammo. These rounds shoot very well in my 4-inch S&W. I would not hesitate to use it on lions, bears or for self-defense.

I would pack a 22 or 22 Mag if hiking the AP. Would work perfect for small game, maybe bring some "snake shot" rounds as well.

I have carried a Ruger Redhawk 5.5 44 mag while hiking and it did fine, but alittle heavy, lately I have been carrying my Glock 21 SF due to the fact I have had to deal with more of the 2 legged problems than the 4 legged ones! Good luck!

Love my new KelTec PMR-30 in .22 mag! I've been carrying it quite a bit for hiking around the ranch while checking fences & hunting arrowheads. it's super light & very accurate. With 2 30 round mags, I feel pretty well armed here in Texas, on private property.

That being said, if I'm bow huntnting in CO or NM, where I might encounter black bears or mountain lions, I like my Glock 20- 10mm w/ 15 rounds of Hornady 200gr XTP's.

In any area where my main concerns are two- legged varmints, I usually have my Glock 32- 357sig. It holds 13+ rounds of Speer Gold Dot 125 gr HP's. I have killed several feral hogs here in TX with it, & it puts them down on the spot!
Texas State Troopers here have used that same ammo for years to put down numerous bad guys. Even while shooting through car doors!

My last choice is my little S&W .38 BodyGaurd Revolver with Factory Lazer.
I mostly carry it around the house or while working out in my garage late at night. It doesn't pull down my jogging shorts, and it's loaded with Speer Gold Dot 125gr +P 38sp ammo.
I always carry a extra speed loader when jogging around our neighborhood at night.

A good part of comfort is more than sheer weight of the gun. I really like this holster:

http://www.montanaholster.com/

It's not fancy, but sturdy and carries beautifully. I find that I don't even use the belt snap, just let it hang, so to speak. Also, the shoulder rig is usable with other belt-style holsters (I use mine mostly with an old Bianchi flap holster holding a Model 57 S&W). Much more comfortable than either a belt or a typical shoulder holster. I can carry an N frame Smith and Wesson all day with no fatigue (at least from the gun and holster!).

I'll be hiking a piece of the Virginia AT in October. I don't plan on carrying a firearm even though I usually have one handy. Virginia and Georgia don't have a reciprocal carry agreement. For some unknown reason the Constitution only applies in your home state or those that decide that your home state has done enough checking on you to allow you to protect yourself. Evidently Georgia and Virginia don't see eye to eye when it comes to carry permits.

You will find that you can carry your handgun openly in Virginia, no permit of any kind.

That was a question that just occurred to me. Thanks for answering it before I had the chance to ask! So as I understand it even though I am from out of state, it is legal to open carry in Virginia. I guess in areas where I would not want to open carry I would need to have the firearm inaccessible and unloaded so that it would not be considered a concealed weapon. I have never worried much about four legged critters or two legged critters either for that matter, but me having a firearm would offer some comfort to others that will be with me. (They know that I can out run them and there wouldn't be as much need to do so if I was armed.) Thanks again for the information.

I have not made my recommendation yet, but would recommend a lighterweight double action 357 Mag from Colt, Ruger, or S&W with 2 to 4 inch barrel.

I have killed a 250 pound black bear with a 4 inch S&W model 66 with 158 gn SJHP factory loaded Magtech ammo.

In the summer I load "Shot" Ball "Shot" Ball Ball Ball in the cylinder and have them loaded to fire in that order. I figure that a snake up close would need shot quick; a toothy critter should yield enough warning to cycle past the first "Shot" capsule or if that close the shot to it's face should help deter long enough to get a ball in it as a stopper. In fall/winter, I load straight ball ammo, i.e. 158 gn SJHP.

I can give you my opinions, which is based on some experience and actual observations for those who are wondering if I have any. Admittedly I have no experience on bear and cougar with a revolver. I would say just carry whichever is lightest and that you shoot well. If you want to buy another gun, so be it, it's a good excuse. As far as loads go, you will be much much more likely to need the gun on a human so I would go with an expanding type bullet like an XTP that can work on other critters as well if needed. Yes I have seen many people shot with expanding bullets, FMJ bullets and lead bullets from handguns, rifles and shotguns so I do have some experience. The expanding bullets have almost always done a better job of stopping a person because of more trauma, humans need comparatively little in the way of penetration like big game will.

I have seen many people who have been shot with many weapons, usually handguns, and have been in the middle of and actually witnessed a handful of shootings. Luckily I was armed with 00 buck for the most intense, very close range one. If I would have had just a handgun, I would have probably ended up very hurt or killed, even though he would have still likely been killed had I shot him many times with a handgun, he would not have been stopped by any handgun like the shotgun stopped him, which saved my butt.

Handguns are not death rays like on television and in fact in actual shootings, a human shot one time in the torso with a handgun has I believe (I am going from memory from a gunshot wound class from 3 years ago) a 97 percent chance of living. Additional rounds on target increase the chance of killing the subject exponentially. Remember, stopping power and killing power are two different things. Yes big bore revolvers with heavy cast bullets are very good killers even for very large animals, they however lack the high velocity that causes massive trauma that is usually what stops. This does not inclued a proper central nervous system shot, which will almost always stop even with a handgun, almost.

You have to take into account the motivation and state of the animal you are up against. Lucky for us, the vast majority of people who are shot will fall to the ground screaming with even a minor injury to an extremity, because humans are soft. This is where the high percentage of one shot stops comes from associated with the rating of handgun loads in actual shootings. Many of these people were still not killed, just stopped. If you take a motivated, demented, high, mental or deranged subject or just one who is dedicated to the cause, we have a different subject all together. In this case anything short of a central nervous system shot will do nothing until they bleed out or are broken down by hitting pelvis, major bones or other parts of their frame, which will drop them but still not always stop them as they will crawl or fight from the ground if they are dedicated enough.

All this said, I am definately not saying I'm an expert, just my experiences. Carry what you are most comfortable with and if in the unfortunate and unlikely chance that you have to shoot, shoot until your gun is empty or until someone is on the ground and no longer a threat.

We all have our opinions, some are based on experience, too many are based on internet forums. There are many answers on here for you to choose from. The most important thing is to have fun on your hike.

Best hiking gun IN THE WORLD! (LCR 22LR)



Second best hiking gun IN THE WORLD! (S&W 396, note the holster)



Travis

As a person who grew up hunting and exploring in the foothills of Appalachia, and packed different handguns over the years, were I to choose a revolver as the OP stated, the 3" version of the S&W 360 would be my ideal choice. (Another poster posted a picture of one earlier in this thread.)

Full disclosure, I haven't had to actually use one on black bear, cougars, or the two-legged varmits, but I'm pretty sure a lightweight 3" .357 would work just fine.

I have no idea what all states the Trail goes through, and someone mentioned NJ, which reminds me of this Ayoob story: http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob105.html
about a lady carrying hollowpoints in NJ who nearly went to prison over the concealed weapon which was legal for her in CT, but not NJ. However, she got off lightly and was "only" fined $1000 per cartridge for carrying HP's.

Goes to a Cabelas and get a large spray can of Bear Spray. I'd still bring a handgun but scumbags hate high concentration pepper spray. I've seen it used multiple times in prison riots. And being a "less lethal" weapon it'll show a jury that you were not inclined to shoot someone. This could save you a trip to prison for manslaughter if you'd ever need to use force.

S&W Mdl 43...

I've never killed a black bear or a lion, but I've had a few close encounters with both. I've had lots of "encounters" with two legged varmits and used a handgun in two such cases.
If you are more worried about two legged varmits, I wouldn't pack a revolver if I had a choice. I'd pack either a 1911 style semi auto or a SIG 220. That's because when you drop them on a hard surface, they work when you pick them up. 50% of the revolvers I've seen so dropped or used as a club in one case, would no longer fire.....
Do make sure you understand and obey the laws in the areas where you'll be. However, frankly, I can explain anything but my own death.
Will a .45 ACP or a 10mm work on a black bear or a Mtn Lion with common expanding ammo ? I understand they will. But, if you insist ona guy who has seen lots of them shot with such guns, ask JJHack. E

Raver,

If you go with your .44 Special I recommend that you consider the Buffalo Bore 255 gr cast SWC load at 1,000 fps.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=88,

Penetration should be excellent. This is the load I carry in my M-329 on the Pacific Crest Trail. Good luck.

When I bum around the place in north Idaho I carry an old Ruger Flattop 44 Mag cut to 4 5/8" loaded with 280 gr WFN's at 1050 fps in a pancake holster. Light enough in weight and easy enough to shoot well with right sized bullets from MBW.

Unfortunately no longer produced...but I got mine.

There is a reason Smith and Wesson made the Kit Gun.

Ok, so let's get real, cougars and bears on the AT? Only a problem in your most fevered fantasies. Two legged varmints will be more than impressed with anything pointed in their direction and even that is a stretch. . Keep it light because you will come to resent every extra ounce in your pack. The most likely use of your handgun will be in taking small game and trout.?????....trout? (The Statute of Limitatation has run out so I am safe in telling you to get close and aim low....trust me.) Take it from one who has been there.

Somehow I feel you would be better off with a LW 22 and a box of hollow points than your 3 pound bazooka's. No I have not killed anything or anybody so my comment is pure Internet malarky.

Not me..I have now shot three eastern black bears, but all those bears where shot when unaware with rifles. I somehow expect that shooting an unaware blackie with a rifle is a bit different from shooting at an unhappy bear 15 feet away with a handgun.

My choice of gun in this thread, a 357 with 158's I have no doubts would be fine shooting the unaware bear from a tree stand, but would no doubt feel small and unimpressive standing 15 feet in front of a pissed off sow. Of course there is something to be said for 12oz handguns when walking for miles and miles. To be frank I am more concerned with threats like people, or unleashed aggressive dogs than with black bears. It wouldn't be my choice if I was in grizzly county, but I spend hundreds of hours in black bear country a year and if I am lucky a week or so in Griz country every year or three.

Carry what you feel comfortable with and can shoot good.Chances of being attacked by a bear are slim to none.I have shot quite a few bears with a revolver,but none were attacking me.

It is a shame that there is not a National CCW permitting process that would allow national carry.

The Second Amendment would serve if we could elect some people that had read it and believed what it said.

Watch out you don`t stumble on a grow site.Things could get sticky and i would want to carry a man stopper.

How about a Charter Arms target bulldog? 23oz. I had to stop this critter with mine while hog hunting a couple of years ago. It wasn't my primery hunting gun. I carried it to have something to carry first day out while my son hunted. Using a 240-250grain cast bullet at anything around 800fps will deal with most problems in that neck of the woods and it is so light you won't even know you are packing. reflex264

I've never shot a bear, but I did poleaxe a 1200 lb cow with a warmly loaded .45 Colt. My neighbor asked me to put down one of his cows that had a distended bowel, as all he had was a .22 rifle and he didn't want it to suffer. I just happened to be wearing a S&W 25-5 at the time, loaded with home-cast 270 gr RCBS SWC's over a fairly stout charge of Unique. Old Elmer was right, a .45 will go through the frontal plate on a cow, traverse the skull and go on back into the neck. In his autobiography he tells of having to rescue the East Helena butcher who had been treed by a bull. Elmer rode up on his horse and shot the bull in the forehead with his Colt SAA .45 as it charged him, dropping the bull right on his nose. In my case I felt bad for the cow, but at least she never knew what hit her.

By the time I was 16 I'd walked just over 1,000 miles of the AT. Never, ever felt the need for a handgun. If I felt the need, I'd resist and carry bear spray. Damn effective on two and four legged beasts. FWIW, I never pack a handgun here in grizzly country, except when packing out bloody elk meat... then it's just a backup to bear spray.

Carrying a handgun is an awesome responsibility. If you've ever taken a human life you'll know what I mean. Unless you're thoroughly trained and have the right mindset, I'd not carry.

What Brad said....

Good points here by Brad and DW. While I can carry, I prefer the chemical irritants.
Pretty dam effective for man or beast and a lot less paperwork and court time.
For protection in my home, "Condition One" is the rule of the day.

I agree. Also, there is the problem of what to do with the gun while in town. You will also likely be violating a myriad of laws. UDAP bear spray weighs 9oz. Bears are an increasing problem in the SE, an AT section in GA now requires you to hike through or have a bear canister if you camp now.

I've never felt the need to carry a firearm or pepper spray when hiking along the AT in Pennsylvania. With that said, I am trying to understand the the train of thought with regard to whether people who are accustomed to using firearms not consider defending themselves with one unless they have received some expert level of training. I believe you and Brad may have experience in such matters that I do not, and so I would value your opinion.

Let's say that I have been in the woods along or near the AT many times since I was a kid carrying a firearm while hunting. Presumably, I would defend myself from a four-legged or two-legged critter with that firearm if the need arose, although honestly, I never really thought about such a far-fetched scenario.

What's the difference between a life-long hunter and shooter walking along/near the AT with a long gun during hunting season versus a life-long hunter and shooter hiking along the AT with a handgun, especially if the hunter/shooter has a fair amount of experience shooting the handgun? Does the difference come down to entirely one of a different mindset where in one instance the primary purpose for carrying a firearm is hunting while in the other instance the primary reason is self-defense? Can't there be some overlap where a person with years of experience handling weapons while hunting and shooting has at least the bare minimum experience needed to be able to defend himself with a firearm if necessary?

I ask this because I have seen threads in the handgun forum and elsewhere suggesting that your run-of-the-mill, life-long "gun guy" really shouldn't even consider self-defense with a firearm unless they have a high level of expensive civilian training or LEO/military training. But I am of the opinion that if I really needed a gun, nothing else would suffice, and I wonder whether being around guns since almost forever, coupled with a dose of common sense, would be "good enough".

I'm not a handgun guy, I would just take a 22 rifle like a ruger 10/22 and a couple of boxes of ammo along with an extra magazine. Most will be able to shoot a rifle a lot better than a handgun. Or a Marlin 336 in 30-30 plenty light and plenty for most pests either four or two legged. I understand the Idea of handguns, I carried one for 30 years. I still carry from time to time, I just can shoot a rifle better. In the end carry what ever it is you want to carry.

I'm sure Hugh Glass would debate the chemical irritant...

Oh, Ravery, I forgot to apologize for the loss of your kin many years ago. We had this handgun topic come up many years ago on Whiteblaze. Someone researched the topic and the vast majority of the murders that have happened in the history of the AT have happened NEAR THE SHELTERS. Smart folks stay away from them. I use a hammock and typically hang somewhere out of view of the trail.

EVERYBODY shoots a rifle better than they do a handgun. That isn't the point, and advising an AT hiker to carry a 30/30 marlin for "self-protection" is about the nuttiest thing I've ever read on the fire.

I can't speak for Brad or others, but I think the difference is consequence management. If you flub a shot on a deer, there's only minor consequences. Outside of sanctioned combat, the consequences of firing on another person are severe, even if you're vindicated, as a civilian. In uniform, we get a pass by the populace because we're shooting at "enemies" and not "people." In every case as a civilian, be prepared to face additional scrutiny from all corners on the use of lethal force.

As Heidi Smith, she of Thunder Ranch, likes to opine, "there's a lawyer attached to every bullet. How many lawyers to you want to let loose?"

I guess it's down to this, in a combat situation and I shoot the guy and its on the edge, it will be perceived to be a righteous shooting unless there's strong evidence otherwise. As a civilian, if I pull my weapon, there had better be a significant amount of evidence that I was in fear for my life or limb before I fire, and the "fear" bar is much higher. The statute of limitations on murder is forever, and if at any time any authority who may have had jurisdiction over the shooting determines there was foul play, you'll have to defend yourself in court again.

Double jeopardy, sadly, has been interpreted as a jurisdictional thing. Meaning, the City gets a shot at you, then the county, then the state, then the US for a civil rights violation.

Extensive training as a civilian is valuable if for no other reason than learning this, paraphrased from Jeff Cooper:

Did you shoot to kill?
"no"
Did you shoot to wound?"
"no."
Then why did you shoot XYZ ### number of times?
"He did ____ that put me in fear for my life."
So you shot him until he was dead?
"No. I shot him until he stopped doing that. Then I called 911 and rendered first aid."

Also, training teaches you to yell things like "Stop! Stop! Drop the knife! Someone call the police." And how to draw your weapon in a manner that causes the aggressor to correctly interpret your willingness to shoot them (not shoot at them, shoot them. They look different) and to cause the aggressor to retreat, which is better for everybody.

Frankly, it doesn't really matter if you shoot first or yell first (well, yell first is preferred), most witnesses will remember yelling and shooting, in that order. Thank God for preconditioning by cop shows.

In a civilian on civilian situation, you're never really done.

Don't even get me started on what happens when you try to return to your "normal" civilian life and everyone knows you shot someone. There's volumes and volumes to suggest you'll never get your life back.

Good post!

Got mine too... perfect for bear country. I know everybody prefers spray.. but it's the last thing I want when something's got me down, chewing on me. Can't say Hi-V ammo is fun to shoot in this though - probably why it's not made anymore. It's got a bite.

I have the pleasure to live in bear. lion and coyote country and walk my dog daily in it. She wears a bell and I carry a Ruger LCR in .38 Spcl with a max load.
The only issue that I have ever had was with some urbanized coyotes in a state park.
Where I go in the back country by my home my friend's Airedale jumped a mountain lion earlier this year. The lion is my biggest fear, more for the dog than me. With the bell, I seldom see anything but an occasional snake.
Last week I was hunting grouse in the Flattops and we came up on a cow and bull moose, the rut had started. Now that is a bigger problem than any black bear that I have ever encountered. Having three rounds of #6 shot is not very comforting. Fortunately, we were able to skirt around them before the bull got too agitated.

Count me as one who is not enamored with the thought of OC spray as a first line of defense. There are a lot of reasons for the popularity of the Taser these days and a big one is spotty results from OC. A meth head with his pain receptors burned out just might not fall to the ground from a shot of spray in his face.

It would also seem less than ideal if said bad guy, bent on destruction, did not have an aversion to firearms. If the bad guys would stick to just packing OC then I might reconsider but I sure would hate to show up at a gun fight with just a spray bottle of hot sauce to hide behind.

Because the OP opened the door to a new gun my choice would be S&W MP in 9MM or the Gen 3 G19. Tupperware pistols are hard to stomach but 17 rnds of very effective ammo in a relatively small and light package seems to me to be the best answer to the question.

With the advances in what is termed �Barrier Blind� defensive ammo no bears skull is going to stop one of the new breed of 9MM +P loads. These loads were developed to not defect on intermediate barriers such as automobile glass and still deliver very good terminal results.

2 legged predators would be more of a concern but keep in mind even coons and skunks can be a problem. 40,000 people a year get treated for rabies here in the good old US of A, and the vectors are almost exclusively bites from wildlife. Hard to bring the skunk in that bit you if you only have OC spray.

I have packed a Scandium 329PD a few miles and it is hard to beat but more and more these days the Tupperware gets carried even in grizzly country.

I must need a different holster because my poor ol 329 sure has a lot of wear compared to some.

John, that looks like a carry gun and not a BBQ gun!

While some of what you write here is true, I am inclined to ask how many times you've been sprayed. And how many time you've been tased?

Also, whether you intend to use it or not, having a can of bear spray on you is simply not a bad idea these days. At least you can spray the dead critter afterward...

Oh and since it is Friday, GFY...


Travis

So, you season your game with pepper spray prior to cooking?

I wish. Bears are my white whale. The only ones I see are the size of my lab, or protected.

I guess I could try it on venison?


Travis

just bought the exact gun, will be packing it theis weekend on a 3day backpack elk archery hunt

DW,

Thanks for the thoughtful response to my questions. There is a lot to process there.

Never been sprayed with real OC but have been in the gas chamber with out a mask and the old MACE. Never been tased.

Never been shot with a 9mm or .45 either if that was the next question.

I fugure I got enough stuff to carry and if I have room for spray I have room for an extra mag instead.

I will take a pistol over spray especially when dealing with 2 legged critters that will most likely have a pistol of their own.

My only point is that it is very effective. And there is a difference between being in actual backcountry and being in places like the AT and National Parks.


Travis

Something big enough for things bigger than humans. I'll stay with my 3" barrel Model 629.

My favorite woods carry is a 2 1/2" .44 mag Taurus tracker. 300gr XTP's loaded "warm". Not a fun range gun :P

I have a few others, but it's the most comfortable for me to carry while hiking.

Shooting people is a "think first" type of thing. I've already decided what would cause me to draw my weapon and fire on a person in combat and in civilian situations.

Civilian situations are a lot more complicated because they involve more variables. Like "it's going to cost me $100,000 to defend my self after shooting this jack@ss for stealing $25. Is that worth it?" In my mind, I've already decided to shoot before I would draw my weapon, and the only thing that would change that is some extremely positive development in the altercation. So, the bar for me to draw is pretty high.

Combat's more like "he's shooting or going to shoot at me or my people, and I need to prevent that." In that case, I'm carrying my rifle openly, and anyone who points a weapon at me is asking to get shot.

I've been sprayed in the eyes/face with OC in training a few times. After being sprayed, we were required to draw our PR-24 baton, administer a few jabs/strikes to a training bag, then handcuff a semi-compliant fellow student.

Bottom line, OC will make your eyes/nose burn and runny, make you wish to close your eyes, make it hard to breathe, irritate your mouth, throat, lungs, sinus.

But, if you have a strong combat mindset, and determination, it will not neutralize you.

Crap I screwed.

God..me too..


I dont think I could have a strong combat mindset when Im flopping around on the ground screaming like a little girl!


But I do think bear spray is a good idea, cause if the wind isnt with you, you'll get some in your face,and that way you wont be able to see what is about to happen to you...

LOL.

I can just about guarantee that any human trying to defend their young from danger, would not be stopped by a blast of OC to their face.

Would a bear? I can't say, but it seems unlikely to me.

No way in hell im pepper spraying Yogi...... Ive been subjected to it twice and it didnt "neutralize" "subdue" or "deter" me either time....

Dats cause you ain't right boy....

besides, all you need is that .22 mag derringer and some kerosene.....

That will definitely,deter, neutralize or subdue a boar hog..... or so Im told....

Plus...you can warm your hands on the fire...if he will hold still long enough...

Not sure how itd work on ol Ephraim though.... May just wind up fighting a flaming bear...

interesting read: BEAR STUDY. i carry spray more often than not, even though i have most of the handguns mentioned in this thread.

There have been numerous instances where bears have been stopped by pepper spray, and numerous instances where they've been stopped by handguns.

One of the instances that happened in Montana a few years ago involved a couple of guys bowhunting elk in a creek drainage not far north of Yellowstone Park. One guy had a .45 auto and and the guy had a big can of pepper spray.

They ran into a sow grizzly with cubs, about 50 yards away, according to their later estimates. She did the standard threat stuff--popping her jaws, bouncing on her front legs--and the guy with the .45 cut loose, apparently at what might have been too long a range for his skills. Dunno the load.

He wounded her, and she charged, got him down and started mauling him. The other guy drew his spray and applied it liberally. The bear ran off and stayed away. Luckily the spray-guy was a doctor and got his partner patched up and into a hospital.

This is an example of one, but educational. The guy with the handgun was evidently nervous and started shooting long before he should have, since the bear was threatening, not charging. And yes, pepper spray did drive off a wounded, angry mama grizzly.

I also know a few people who have pepper-sprayed black bears, and in every instance it worked, though none of the bears were mamas with cubs.

The most exprienced bear man I know, Phil Shoemaker, carries both pepper spray and a revolver when guiding fishermen during summer in Alaska. We had a big brown bear sow come galumphing up to us, because it was being chased by a dumb-ass woman with a point-and-shoot camera from another fishing party slightly upstream. The bear was not happy and at 15 feet away from us stood there trying to decide whether to charge. Phil had his right hand on his revolver and his left hand on the spray, which may be the belt and suspenders version of bear defense.

And you knew it was coming, and you held your breath. If you'd never seen or heard of the stuff before and you were bellowing and snorting and running and somebody sprayed your face with about ten of those little squirts (like you recieved in training) all at once (equivalent to the UDAP) you'd have gone down like you took a 240 burst in the chest.

I see an opportunity for a new Cabelas' product there...

I've been hit with OC and I've seen others get hit. Not a squirt, a sustained stream from less than 2 feet away after doing a fair amount of PT, i.e. you are sweating and breathing hard. No way to not get the "full effect". And in my case the fun just started. There was work to do while you were feeling the awesomeness.

Different people react differently, dunno about bears. But I do know that if the wind is wrong I'm [bleep]. I don't carry bear spray, but I do carry a 629 or a 586 stoked with rounds that will do what I need them to do.

You might as well add this tool to your anti-bear arsenal.
It might prevent any major internal damage when YOU wear it.

http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11916675&010=SKU-10922384&003=3934892&camp=CSE:Nextag:11916675

I like that...spray and if that don't work..... I'd hate to shoot a bear unless it was the only alternative....but I'd hate it worse to not be able to shoot a bear if the only alternative was me getting chewed on.

I'd also hate not being able to shoot a 2-legged varmint because it was more than 30 feet away--and 30 feet is about the outer limit for pepper spray.

So what I'm getting from this is that the term "spray and pray" really originated with capsicum ursine repellants, not with nine millimeter pistols as is commonly believed.

It was a combination of the two...

Keep guessing.

Quite obviously he is doing so.

I would never carry spray and not a firearm but I do carry spray. I've been OC'd no less than four times and Shane is correct, you can fight through it.

Although I have never had to spray a bear, I have sprayed a whole pile of canines. And it hurts them, bad. To the point that they will behave differently for extended periods of time.

It definitely does bad schit to critter's olfactory system.


Travis

TAK, I respectfully disagree. I'm one of the lucky ones that is impacted very little by OC. For example, I had one of my patrol guys surpise both the suspect and myself by basically emptying his "fogger" into a basement area (he might have been a little amped up). I was in said area and there was a baby in the back. I evacuated the baby and took the suspect into custody (my officer hated OC and got the hell out).
OC doesn't impact everyone the same. I've seen it be completely ineffective as many times as I've seen it work.

I can also state that we've walked our K9s through clouds of OC and CS (enough that the handlers wore masks). It only served to pizz them off more, not turn them.

George

If you read this whole thread, there isn't a very big % of actual encounters. Back and forth between spray and guns is the same as the age old argument of 9mm vs 45 ACP.

I have encountered Grizzlies near our cabin near Yellowstone, and I have seen false charges, no real attacks. Getting to bear spray or a firearm when a critter that big has you in his sights is scary and unnerving. I don't know if I could get to either without messing my pants.

Either way I hunt that area up there during bow season, I do my own thing and after a real encounter, I will report on whether or not my preferred carry is better than the other...

Bears charge shrapnel until they get a peek at who they're charging.



Travis

Well, OC works like a charm on Haitians. I fact, I never saw it NOT work on Haitians, and I oughta know cause I used it a BUNCH. Some of the little cretin thieves in Portau Prince did figure out how to use citrus (limes) to neutralize the spray in their eyes. They'd run off after you hosed 'em, get their eyes cleared up and be back at it in no time. They had long ago figure out TO HOLD THEIR BREATH though.

Yeah, OC works well....except when it doesn't.

Speaking of bears and hikes, saw these two yesterday morning on our way to a hike

I have no first hand knowledge of stopping a bear charge. Never had to thankfully. However, because I am occasionally in bear country, I try to be as prudent as possible. To that end, I try to gain information from more informed sources.
Two different reviews of bear attacks had similar findings. Bear spray was successful in stopping bear attacks about 90 % of the time, firearms about 60% of the time. If I remember correctly it took an average of 4 shots to stop a bear. The typical bear attack occurred something like 3 or 4 seconds after the bear was first seen.
Therefore, I always carry bear spray in bear country. And, a firearm, if possible.
Not knowing a lot about handguns and bears, I tried to follow Phil Shoemakers advice, and carry the most powerful handgun that has manageable recoil and in my case that is a S&W Mountain Gun in 44 Magnum with cast bullets.
I am not putting the above information out as my own or as being original, but as at least having some reasoning behind it.

Fred

I have and a 130 grain Nolser stopped it all.I would want nothing less and I also have been gassed several times and was taught how to work through it to take care of the matter at hand without a mask.

Life or death situation and someone prefers a spray over a bullet provided he or she is capable of making a good shot under the stress of the event?

Why not hair spray and a match or a flame thrower?

Because if there that close, you already lost!

Jayco

'a good shot under the stress of the event' means a CNS shot on a wildly moving target the size of a grapefruit. there's been a few hunters killed lately BECAUSE they shot the bear.

and yes, i've killed bear at spitting distance.

Really...It takes a CNS shot to stop all Bears...Not!!!!!

You read to much!

Jayco

do ya really think bleeding out a charging bear is gonna do it? laffin...

I'm laughing too......You don't have to hit CNS to stop a fricken Bear.

How did this happen without a CNS shot?

"This grizzly was killed in Spatsizi Plateau Wilderness Park in the Eagle Nest Mountain Range of Northern British Columbia. He squared over 8 feet and the skull measured 23 13/16'', which is very good size for an interior mountain grizzly bear. When I shot the bear, he had started a charge from about 70 yards away, and by the time I had a sight on him, he was 40 yards. The 540 Hammerhead hit him right between the front legs, and he did a complete front-wards flip after the bullet hit him. That bullet completely penetrated him lengthwise and exited. I made a follow up shot (which was unnecessary, just instinct) after he rolled which angled through the chest, took out a section of spine, and exited the top of his skull (if you look closely at the photo you can see the exit hole in his head). Very impressive bullet performance."



Jayco

your google fu is great today. now read the title of the thread slowly so you understand.

then ask yourself what the .540 is that the guy in the picture is holding.

Use enough handgun like the 45-70 BFR and you will penetrate any Grizz stem to stern taking out all the crap in between.

I didn't Google anything...Randy Garrett is a good friend of mine and sent this little bugger to me via e-mail.

Use enough gun and aim strait.Use the spray for seasoning!

Jayco

and in what world is the 4#+ .45-70 BFR a 'hiking revolver'?

again, read THIS

It is fascinating that a newbie's first post on a subject that has been beat to death over and over again for years has resulted in 14 pages so far and no end in sight.

I wonder if the OP will ever appear to submit his third post (probably on the .270 vs. the .30/06 for 133 lb. Axis deer over a pile of rutabagahs at 4:30 PM from 227 yards on a Thursday afternoon during the second phase of the moon in October).

What is the old grisly alaskan quote. "Make sure you have your bear spray ready so you can spray him down after you shoot him 'cause they stink to high heaven."

Your showing your stripes...A 4# revolver in a good bandoleer holster is ten fold better than a 3# holster/caliber on the side that won't do the deed.

Show me your handgun and how far it will penetrate a Grizzly.I will bet you,my handgun will out penetrate any rifle you own?


Jayco

Watch it Toad! Next he'll challenge you to push ups!!

After that it's naked wrestling!!!

you see, unlike you, i get out of the truck and walk. places where your sneakers won't get you.

Really....I will match you picture for picture this year on getting out.



Jayco

Amazing. Somebody asks what handgun for hiking the Appalachian Trail, and now we have....

yep, and the OP already said his .480 SRH was too big and heavy...

They have some big Bears there......Don't be so condescending.



Jayco

Have they moved the AT in the last couple months? I don't remember it running though griz country.

George

TFF!

eeewwwwww

SamO..Your my hero!!!!

What do you have in common with Waylon?

I just do not see it...Correct me please.



Jayco

Logsucker's posting pictures of half naked men again.

Why am I not surprised?

I just spit High Life all over my mac. Thanks guys...................

I observe that on 24hourcampfire.com that any posting that goes over four pages has veered off into tangents often well off the original. Now who most deserves that this new Law be named for?

No....Not one person posted how large the Bears on the trail can be..This Bear took a 300 grain .458 Barnes solid copper through both shoulders and barely exited.

Not your .38 special type of bear.Size makes a difference.



Jayco

On the internet, "Hiking"="World record grizzly attacking you every 100yds".


Travis

GD Jayco! You're prettier than I would have guessed.

Those BFR's are some great hiking revolvers. They go awesome with my 12lb. sack!


Travis

The one where people want to live and not be desert.

Jayco! This is a family site! Clean this schit up!

Last warning.


Travis

You obviously do lots of hiking.


Travis

How do you know it barely exited? Did you find it laying on the ground next to the bear?

Laughin' my ass off...


Travis

I think he meant 'bearly' exited...but its tough to tell with the way he spells...

I'd rather be desert than dessert. That's jus [bleep] weak. At least if I'm desert I might be the sand in someones eye. Or vag......

Once again, a thread where those that post can't read.

Perfect.

Yep, another example of the failure of American public education system. Either that, or a confirmation of the bell curve.

I love to hear myself speak, and I accept that about me. But I also force myself to listen. And when I find myself not listening I know I'm either completely in the right, or totally schitfaced.


Travis

Travis,

Another post worthy of quoting!

I can't remember a post of yours that didn't have a conscious and reasoning purpose, even if you were schitfaced.

Of course, some people on the Fire secretly want to be famous fiction writers. (Or even gun writers, God knows why.) And the Internet is the place to try.

for a guy that can't spell 'too' and 'know', i'm shocked he got 'condescending' right

I learned today firsthand that a Ruger Bearcat is not what you want to be carrying. We left the woods after putting up a stand and had a very hair raising encounter with a voracious and maniacal escaped cow. We were at least able to keep her out of the corn until the red Heeler showed up!

Something about a broken clock & twice a day............

Y'all are missing the big threat-what about running into a Bigfoot?
Does OC wotk on a Yeti?
What handcannon is effective on a Saquatch? (I think I would lean toward a Howdah double pistol in .577 Snider)
What about liability-would handloaded ammunition get you into trouble in court when you have to whack Bigfoot? In court would having your Howdah slicked up and tricked out make you look like you went looking to fight Yeti? What happens when the local news interviews the Man-ape's Mom, and she says her boy was good at heart and was just starting to turn his life around when a bloodthirsty evil gunowner slew him in cold blood?

To the poor OP if he is still with us-you stand about as much chance of being struck by lightning on the AT as you do being attacked by a black bear or a mountain lion. Get a good .22, shoot the hell out of it before you go, and enjoy your hike.

Probably, no mountain lions in that area but don't discount the bears on the AT. In GA at the Blood Mountain shelter, a BIG blackie ran everyone out of the building (it looks like a Haitian jail) and helped himself to everyone's chow. Of course, they were all granola heads who'd been told they didn't need to ever worry about the bears.

They didn't install "bear cables" at the shelters in NC and VA for no reason.

How far ya hikin'?

S&W mod 34 kit gun, 22lr, S&W mod 36 Chiefs special, 38spec, Charter Arms Bulldog, 44spec. or suit yourself.

Sycamore

Thanks sir!

One of these days I'm gonna sober up, look through my notes, and either become a gunwriter, or the Penthouse-Forum-writer-guy.

Either way, I'd be havin' fun.



Travis

I carry a side arm while backpacking. Why? Because I feel better. Never needed it, but like the comfort of knowing it is there.

I carry while elk hunting if I know I am coming out after dark. Otherwise I do not like the extra weight. I hunt an area with an emerging wolf population. Not sure a pistol is any better than a rifle, but again, makes me feel better.

Use to carry a Ruger SP-101. Nice sized revolver, built like a tank. 5 shots with a hard cast bullet. Not too bad

I have the Ruger Refhawk in 45 colt. heavy loads good for "big" bears? maybe? But too much to carry too far. If I am really concerned about needing a gun for big bears.....guide gun

Now I carry a Glock 29 in 10 mm with hard cast bullets. Nice frontal area, 10 in the mag & an extra 15 shot mag in the pack I find my g29 easier to shoot than a SP-101. Also the extra mag carries my extra ammo supply.

Cheers

The why is easy. They want to be rich and famous, a legend in their own time.

I like that LW 44 you have, no fiction there, but I don't think they make it anymore do they? Seems like a nice concept with 44 specials.

Thanks, I love it too. I have the 310 as well, but it is on the N-Frame. Will likely go down the road sooner than later.

And to answer your question, they stopped making the 396.

Travis

doubletap,

Now THAT makes sense, somehow--unlike some of this thread.

But in my experience there's more fame (or maybe notoriety) than riches in being a gun writer. In fact my wife often says, "To hell with fame, gimme money."

The last time that I hiked along the AT, I ran into a group of Mennonite (aka "car Amish") families at one of the more popular scenic overlooks. They had to walk close to four miles, one way, to get there. Some of the mothers, wearing full-length dresses, were even carrying babies that were too young to walk on their own, and there were plenty of other children along, too.

I'd have felt pretty stupid if I showed up wearing an 8" barrelled .44+ caliber cannon strapped across my chest. YMMV.

Smart woman. You better hang on to her.

Exactly. Same with the NP's. I know I can, I just choose to be discreet.


Travis

I used to and there a lots of other ways to shave weight without putting you life on the line.

Yeah, it's called scandium.

Give "dramatic" another go. You're almost there.


Travis

Well I'll let you look for a 475 Limbaugh in Scandium.

I'll let you tell me which portion of the Appalachian [bleep] Trail requires a .475 Linebaugh.

I'm all ears.


Travis

So you've move to [bleep] Appalachian area now LOL. Travis you're a dick.

The OP is asking about a revolver for the AT.

A dick? What are you, captain obvious today?


Travis

Out of those three, I'd roll with the M21 44 Spl.

Buffalo Bore makes a 255gr SWC at 1000 fps. That wouldn't be horrid, if you don't roll your own.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=88

This, then...

If.. If a guy just had to carry a gun on the AT, this would be ideal...

Highly accurate, very lightweight, and will do all that needs doing with a handgun on any AT trip.

The threat of aggressive dogs or rabid critters is real, if slight.
The protection offered by such a revolver as the original Model 43 is just as real as the threat, and handily carried, as well.

I'd still have along the battery operated motion detector alarm, as an aid to sound sleep. And the canister of OC would still and always be my preferred protective device.

I'd still go Kahr P45 (very flat, very light, 7 rounds) or Glock M22 (can't hurt the damn thing, massive firepower) if people and digs and "critters" were the main worry.

If it's bears, especially large ones, you need to tool up for that a little different, I'm told.

But 7 rounds of .45 ACP in a pistol you forget it's even there because it's so light is pretty cool.

We are not talking about a romp through a Kodiak Island alder thicket or a trek over the Khyber Pass of A-Stan, this is the [bleep] Appalachian Trail. Cannons are not needed, nor is fire superiority, despite what you crazy bastards might imagine.

Fixed it for ya...

You can tell who's done time under a heavy load or two. I spent some time in Bob Marshall this summer. Didn't mind the weight of a Glock 20 one bit. There it's justified. On the AT, I'd carry something a bit lighter, but I have several to choose from. A S&W 360 357mag Scandium Kit Gun is about perfect, unfortunately they no longer make them.

Ha! Jeepers-creepers, it's the AT for crying out loud! I've been to "one" of the two--not A-stan or Kodiak, but the upper reaches of the Kuskoquim River in AK where we saw brownies every day, some considerably within 100 yds. I've also spent time in the Bob
Where I saw a bear (blacks, though there are obv griz there too) for every two days there.
That's all.. . I agree with those who stated the first greatest challenge with carrying a side-arm is deciding when and how you'd use it, not the WHAT you'd carry, then your skill level, then the armamentarium.

You guys do realize, don't you, that Ravery, the OP, hasn't posted since the day he started this thread and he hasn't been on-line for more than a week?

He's probably on the AT. He said two weeks.

Hope he makes it out alive, however unlikely that may be without all the essential knowledge/wisdom shared here......grin

Ha! Hope he makes it back in one piece. If he hasn't been eaten by an 800 lb. black bear, or sexually molested by a gang of toothless hillbilly meth addicts he should consider himself lucky.

Reminds me of a local news story. A hiker went missing in the Bob Marshall about a year ago. He was a former Marine, LEO guy. Found his remains just recently.

The newspaper story said he had a 38 revolver. They think the weather got him though. Bad early storm rolled in on him, and it looked like he made a makeshift shelter under some boulders.

Day hiker? No tent?

That's the thing, here or up north, the weather is a bigger threat than anything else. If it's in the summer. insects are just as likely to kill you as is a bear! I've been in mosquitos so thick that the idea of closing my eyes and running blindly off a cliff was not unattractive!
Last year, on a hike at the north end of the Rocky Mountain trench, The 22 I carried for grouse was of much greater value than was the 35 Whelen carried for big game. After a couple of weeks, I would have happily swapped the Whelen for it's weight in Kraft dinner (We were low on grub)! Anyway, while I do occasionally carry a pistol, a 22 is the best choice for me. To tell the truth, I can feed myself much better with a sawed off 22 rifle (I use an old, cut down, Model 67 Winchester. Light, accurate, and durable) than with any pistol.
If I was on the Appalachian trail, I would count on my age and homely appearance to protect me from molestation and I think I'd be OK. I figure my old, wrinkled, butt wouldn't arouse even the most depraved hillbilly! GD

He had some gear. I think a bag and tent. He was hiking the Bob from west to east. Had apparently been out for a couple weeks, and only had about 18 miles to go.

I'll see if I can dredge up the news story.

Here's the story,


http://m.missoulian.com/news/state-...837c47a-efcc-11e1-8d17-0019bb2963f4.html


http://www.greatfallstribune.com/article/20120824/NEWS01/308240021/Remains-found-Bob

OK,so who here has walked the damn thing? This is the A trail and I've walked from NC thru Va and the only thing I came across was a stray dog and a small pot patch...I carried a S&W M15

there before we run all 4 wheels of the road on this thing....

Hah! The first time I walked a section of the AT, south of the NOC, I carried a S&W M15, and I felt distinctly over-gunned.

Your experience is statistically [bleep] meaningless. I've hiked a couple hundred miles of the GA/NC AT and most of the Benton McCaye Trail. I carried a pistol every step and will do so next trip. I don't expect to get mauled but neither did this guy:

http://m.missoulian.com/news/state-...ca4df02-010b-11e2-8f2f-001a4bcf887a.html

Black bears in the Bob are bad asses just like black bears in GA can be. I've seen WMA signs made out of thick metal (like highway signs) lagged bolted 7ft off the ground with the top corners bent down like a paper airplane. They do that out of boredom.

In the GA counties the AT runs through there are probably a dozen bears killed WAY over 350#, with a few near 500# every year.

I've skinned out an 8ft Hinchinbrook AK brownie and a small 200# GA blackie. Even that little blackie was one powerful looking beast when I peeled the hide off of him.

Wow, I was right there at Moose Creek near the wall about a month ago. It was 90F every afternoon. Amazing how fast the weather can change in that country. I remember seeing humongous cornices (in JULY) still hanging 20-30ft over the top of the Chinese Wall. Beaucoup snow last winter for sure. I'm sorry for that guy and his family.

Good God.. a handgun on the AT? Seriously?

Drama queens.

Might need one for two legged critters.......generally the only thing you need to be afraid of in the woods anyway...

Yep, or Fido. Also, I have to drive to get to the AT, through and or around the "Ring Around the Congo" as truckers call I-285. I tend to have a G19 with me, and I don't leave guns in cars. Might be okay in MT, hell, I've noticed people don't even lock their cars in MT. Don't try it if you coexist with the descendants of Ham.

Shush. This thread is hilarious.

Did you buy your BFR yet?


Travis

I'm going to buy two, that way I'm balanced. Ya just never know when you might need the extra ammo.

I'll bet the Emersons still wish they had their Queen:

http://investigation.discovery.com/investigation/bizarre-cases/blood-mountain/blood-mountain.html

A neighbor recently saw a "350 lb" black bear just up the river from our place.

After reading this thread and realzing how dangerous it is out in the real world, I'm not leaving the house without at least one 45-70 strapped to my hip.

On second thought, the bear might break into my house, I'd better sleep with one in each hand.

Or maybe the descendant of that 850lb monster griz that's mounted in the FS office in Lincoln will just rip your ass in half next time you take out the trash.

I think you oughta get an HPG Kit Bag and put a Claymore in it. Remember, "FRONT TOWARDS ENEMY". We wouldn't want anything bad to happen to you when you squeeze the clacker.

Why not have a light handgun, Brad?

Jeff, you ever been on the AT? It's not grizzly country where at least there's a potential reason to carry.

A "light" handgun is a minimum of 3/4lb with ammo... most are far more. Personally I carry as few pounds as possible, and most serious about the pastime are looking for ways to lose pounds, not add them.

But internet backpackers are different...

Yes, they are. I used to hang out over at Whiteblaze where all those [bleep]' girly men spent all day babbling about how to get their base weight from eight pounds down to seven. They didn't like me when I told 'em to get a [bleep]' barbell or at least a testosterone patch.

Well, you personally are on the right track thinking medication...

Thinkin' I got scarred for life by Deliverance.......


My perspective on these things changed when I had girls. Me solo? Meh. What could happen, really. Me and my ladies? That's 3/4 pound I'll pack happily.

Most of my backpacking is with two over 50 ladies that could walk the feet off most on this forum... still haven't found a reason to pack in summer. And spray is more effective...

My daughter and I roamed around Bob Marshall a bit this past July, no way in hell would I go there without a proper pistol. MOST of the horsepackers I saw had scabbards and lever guns, probably 45/70's. Brad don't mind changing cooks apparently. I look at my daughters a bit differently.

That Noah Pippin story is, to me, a sad commentary on one man's inability to deal with his transition to everyday life after serving. Whatever he was looking for, I like to think he found it. GD

TAK that's one of your best posts of all time. And I agree with you on carrying a handgun to protect the wimmens, if not yourself too. Sleep under a tyvek scrap, on a 1/3 piece of foam pad, and eat your meals with a cut down plastic spork to shave ounces and embrace the misery if you must. DO NOT neglect your duty to protect your family to the best of your abilities however.

SP 101, you're not in grizz country.

Brad has two tough female bodyguards with him when he goes hiking. He doesn't need a gun!

Hint, this thread is STILL about the Appalachian Trail, though it's not surprising you've yet to fully grasp that.

As to the Big Bad Bob... give me a break. Bear Spray works there too. If you want to lug a pistol, by all means, you only have yourself to burden. Bear spray, however, is more effective and lighter. Between the two, only an idiot would chose a firearm over the spray.

Also, never yet have seen a horse-packer NOT armed... lot more fun to carry when your horse is doing it for you, and you'd better have spray and a firearm with stock... those bastids do seem to invite all sorts of trouble.

And Meredith Emerson is STILL DEAD.

I agree.

Why you gotta be so arrogant all the time.

I can just see you and your two lady friends, all three marching through the hills in your menopausal rage. No wonder not even a bear want's anything to do with ya.

Burden is burden and we all make our choices. I'll take a weapon, and leave the books and liquor behind.

There is alot of ways at looking at this event but this guy is a lucky fellow in the Big Bad Bob as it was put.



Jayco

I don't fret bears either. But if it ever happens, at least I have a fighting chance with a handgun.

My primary purpose for carrying a weapon is for defense against humans.

Someone mentioned dogs. I had experience with feral dogs in the desert of Egypt, of all places. Those MF'ers were not joking around. They would follow stalk humans in packs. They were aggressive as hell, and would send you running for a vehicle, or start shooting, one of the two.

When you find the reason or more precisely the reason finds you the cost might be pretty high.

Most here understand that bears on the AT are not the biggest threat and spray alone is worthless against 2 leg predators who are not as lazy as you about packin heat.

I pack a handgun while hiking; if it's legal, why not? It's sure nice to supplement your diet with some fresh meat when the fish aren't biting or you've been eating trail mix and MREs for several days. I understand the "going as light as possible" idea, but to me a gun is a pretty important tool to have along.

Whether using it to signal for help, defense against critters and bad people, or to collect food - sounds like a multi-purpose tool to me.

I've never hiked the AT, never had to shoot a charging bear, and I'm not sure who Meredith Emerson is but, this thread is [bleep] hilarious!

Thankfully hunting season starts soon...

As a long-time Carry Permit holder I am armed most of the time whether in town, in the woods, or at home. If I won't go to the gas station or the 7-11 without being armed, why the heck would I even consider heading into the woods for days without being at least as adequately prepared for the unexpected.

I just spoke two words that are meaningful to me.

Be "prepared". A good lesson learned from the Boy Scouts.

"Unexpected". That means you don't know you have a problem until it's upon you. Then there isn't time to get prepared.

A few years ago an older gentleman friend (about 80) of mine and member of my church was taking a long walk on a deserted country road. He was viciously attacked by a pack of feral dogs. He tried to fend them off with his walking stick.

He couldn't move fast enough and they got him down. He was finally able to fish an old Harrington & Richardson Bulldog snub-nose 38 S&W out of his pants pocket and start firing. He got slugs into two of them and the pack ran into the woods.

A rural mail carrier came along and gave him a ride to the nearest house where an ambulance was called. He got a whole bunch of stitches. He more or less recovered okay, and passed away about four years later. He was sort of mentally broken after that, though. In his younger years he was a pretty tough guy, having worked for years as a lumberjack, and this experience took the starch out of him.

The dog pack had been causing problems for nearby farms. A posse, of sorts, was formed and the pack was found and eliminated.

My feeling is that if I am armed I have choices. I can choose whether I want to have my hand on it, ready to act. I can choose whether to present it or not. And ultimately, I can choose whether to pull the trigger or not. If the gun is at home in the safe I don't have any of these choices.

I guess you can say that I am Pro-Choice when it comes to guns.

Brad is welcome to make his own choices.

A little info on Meredith:

http://crime.about.com/b/2008/03/24/meredith-emerson-fought-hard-to-survive.htm

I'm certain her parents wouldn't find a single [bleep] thing in this thread that's "hilarious", even your goofy a$$.

The trails I hike are generally quite untraveled, and, are on public land far from anywhere. If I'm understanding the AT that's not true there; it puts the hiker within reach of "the world" so to speak.

Having packed a Kahr P45 quite a bit I can say I literally forget it's there. They are exceptionally light and trim. Maybe I'm a wuss- hell, I AM wuss- but if I'm on a trail with lots of people AND it dips near enough to rural area that one sees the fringes of society on it I'd damn well pack that pistol.

My girls are beautiful and two of them are natural blondes. The world at large has a fetish over real blondes as I've come to see owning a couple <g>. It's not to be trivialized. If I'm with them in a remote place especially where 911 has no meaning, it's my job to make sure as best I can that they don't become headlines, because as I say however sick the sickos are towards women in general it's +P towards skinny, attractive natural blondes.

Pics?

...sorry, you asked for that one....

Perv!

I choot you wit' my Kahr P45 if'n you even look at them b!tches funny, y'hear!?


See that's how I'd be. All armored up and speaking the local lingo. That's how to be safe on the AT..............

The AT runs from Georgia on up through Maine. Hard to imagine the whole thing is 'in town'.

Shane:

I haven't looked at the stats to confirm, but I've got myself pretty well convinced that when it comes to human predators on the AT, the biggest risk factor is hiking with a woman under the age of 40.

That IS hard to imagine! Good thing I wasn't saying that.

That appears to be the case:

http://www.southeasternoutdoors.com/outdoors/shooting/crime/appalachian-trail-murders.html

Perfect words of wisdom right there. Well stated.

My response has nothing to do with the tragic murder of Ms. Emerson or any other victims on the AT.

It does however have everything to do with the wild, wild, world of the internet, and how one topic can go in so many directions with no "direction" at all. This post included

Goofy

If a person says they won't carry any kind of firearm when backpacking because the odds of needing it are so slim, then surely they have never in their life purchased a lottery ticket. That would be hypocritical.

Leaving behind a convenience item would just be, well, inconvenient. Leaving something behind that just possibly might save your life or that of a loved one doesn't make sense to me.

Sam Colt's invention has been called the great equalizer. Having a firearm makes me feel much more comfortable and secure, knowing that I have more choices, and that I have a much better chance of defending myself, should I need to, even if the chances of needing to are very slim.

When I flew in the military, I never needed to use my parachute, but I was always glad it was there.

I mentioned earlier that I wouldn't even go to the gas station without my concealed carry gun. After giving this statement some thought, I have an admission to make:

It hasn't helped. I still get phu*kin' robbed every time I get gas!

$4.10 a gallon around here. $4.20 or more if you're not payin' attention where you stop.

We are getting a lot more sleazy panhandlers hangin' around the gas stations and convenience stores these days. I still want a gun with me.

I'm not saying you are wrong Brad; but, you are pretty dogmatic about it..

Depending how heavy i want to carry either my 337 smith or my 657 3" round butt 41 mag.

Have had two run ins with black bears, one diffused by my truck going in reverse really fast. The other a sow decided following her cubs was a better use of her time, but this I do know, she could have trashed me in no time no matter what I had to use. Best I could have done is write a note after saying "this is the gun that PO'd the bear the done kilt me".

Have noticed over the years though, ever since carrying something on my hip, have only once met someone not polite in the wild country, and even that guy settled down once he saw..... and I have a lot of time logged off the beaten path.

Shrap, I hope we are not the only two to have read LORD GRIZZLY!

If there was ever a story of mans determination.

My perfect packing pistol is a Freedom Arms 97 44 Special.


ddj

I just can't argue with that.

Blood on the Mountain

story of Randall Smith

Jeff, you are entirely correct, in my view. Pistols serve a purpose. Even my choice for a camp gun, my stainless .22LR Kit Gun, polished butter-smooth, would do the job.

Back in the 1970s, I was working as an international lawyer (still am), at the time with the leading razor blade company and traveling all over. One of my clients was a wonderful guy, Asian regional manager working out of Hong Kong, with a wife and two lovely little blond girls. I had dinner at their home in HK.

Dave [name changed] was promoted to be sales manager for the SE US, working in Atlanta. Sad to say, one of the girls, then in her teens, was kidnapped and assaulted. They ultimately found her body, tied to a tree in heavy forest, where she had been left to die. You simply cannot be too careful.

We always thought that it was so ironic that in all places, the US turned out to be less safe than others where he had taken his family.

Hey Shane, here's my original post on this subject:



I stand behind every word of it.

Would also add, the only arrogant are those that think, not having taken life, they're up to it.

Another aspect of arrogance, is totally ignoring the vast preponderance of evidence that bear spray is FAR MORE effective on bears than a handgun.

I've had at least half a dozen up close and personal encounters with grizzlies. I'm still in the bear spray camp if forced to chose. That's based on reality, not some limited sense of my own manhood and a Freudian-like fixation with phallic symbols that go bang in my hand.

While I admire your highly skillful use of your terrific 308 and 30-06, I never see where you're really out and about in the highcountry and among the grizzlies, year in, year out.

You seem more of a target shooter, but I'm willing to be corrected if wrong that you backpack, year-in, year-out, multi-day, in the Montana backcountry out among the grizzlies.

Back to the dead girl on the AT... unless she were highly trained, having a firearm wouldn't have necessarily changed the outcome. You of all people should know that. As an un-trained female, it's more realistic she would have been better off with spray.

That point about her is essentially a red-herring.

As the the disparaging remarks about my wife and our good friend... the friend has four or five pistols, is HIGHLY trained, and can empty a mag on a man-sized target with ferocious effectiveness. You wouldn't want to be in a pistol fight with her I assure you, and I can only recall one trip where she packed her S&W 357 Scandium. Bear spray is always there.

As I said before, you have only yourself to please. If you want the added burden, knock yourself out.

Not to nit pick Brad but you stated earlier that you carry a .357 in bear country when packing meat. Why not just stick with the bear spray? Just wondering.

I'm more of a camper/dayhiker, and carry a weapon primarily for defense against unruly humans. At any rate, bears/lions/etc don't draw any distinction. I see bear sign regularly when I'm out and about.

I live out of town, and close enough to bear country that the USFS had to trap one out of my neighbors yard, a quarter mile away, a couple years or so ago. Point being, a person does not need to spend days on end in the back country to encounter a bear, mountain lion, or whatever. And I draw no distinction between particular species.

My only encounter with a Grizzly and her cub was in the Crazies back in the 1970s. I/we kept a respectable distance, but Dad had a 30-30 in his hands.

I have no quarrel at all with your choice of spray. We all make our choices, and take our chances.

The arrogance part is you labeling anyone who doesn't opt for spray, as you do, as an idiot. It's Brad's way, or your an idiot....

As far as extra burden goes, I don't see a huge difference between carrying a handgun, or carrying a can or two of bear spray.

A typical can of bear spray with 10-12 oz of net content, must weight about 16 oz with the can and all. A lot of spray carriers carry two cans. That's roughly two pounds.

Depending on what type of handgun one might choose, he could come in about the same overall, or even lighter.

I call that a wash.

Pretty much....

I have lived and worked in Bear country my hole life and never once thought of Bear Spray and do not know one person who chooses it over a firearm.

I have been charged by a Black Bear after it got into our horses not knowing it was wounded previously and believe me,bear spray was not on my mind at all as a well placed shot from the .270 made him stop in his tracks/spin around swiping at his wound to fall deader than a door nail a few feet from me.

I also want a fighting chance if attacked not relying on someone else's opinion or studies knowing a bullet ends it all to 2 legged or 4 legged critters.....

I never want to see something like this........The Bear was coated with Bear spray and his paws were loaded with blood...Just happened in the Bob Marshal from a black bear.

Jayco

Really?

I'd appreciate you citing some sources for that.

Here's what I know: Herrero et al published a peer-reviewed paper last year that was the best and largest study to date looking at firearms vs spray, and their data suggested that pepper spray was only about 6% more effective than firearms (88% for firearms, 94% for spray, IIRC). The study was flawed in that it didn't differentiate types of firearms used, nor did it differentiate between shooters who were experienced/trained with them, and it didn't rule out bear attacks that were initially stopped by spray but then resumed when the bear had recovered from the initial shock of being sprayed. There were a lot of flaws in that study.

Gary Shelton, who is in many people's opinion the most experienced and knowledgeable bear defense expert in Canada quite pointedly does NOT endorse pepper spray over firearms. He does make the caveat that people who are going to carry firearms for bear defense really should take training in the use of same in order to fully utilize the advantage that a firearm can give you, but he doesn't recommend carrying spray rather than a gun. He DOES recommend that everyone in the party carry TWO cans of spray, and have training in their use, however.



I've had about 2 dozen more close encounters with bears than you've claimed, Brad, but I have no illusions that this makes me a bear behavior/defense "expert". I have used bear spray once and a firearm twice against aggressive bears in my lifetime, the remainder were handled by avoidance training. But I certainly don't claim that this limited experience grants me any expertise.

I carry bear spray in bear country, but I also carry firearm(s) whenever feasible. The circumstances under which either should be used are not easily defined. But I've reached a point in my life where the only time I do NOT carry a firearm in bear country is when it's prohibited by law. FWIW, I don't have much faith in handguns as bear medicine, I much prefer a rifle or slug shotgun. I do carry a magnum revolver in black bear country at times, but even then I've done a lot of fishing with a slug gun slung over my shoulder.

And yes, I've had the training in the use of firearms for bear defense from authorized trainers. It's not rocket science, and it's not firearms wizardry beyond the grasp of the average hunter/rifleman.

I appreciate traveling light as much as anyone.

My typical springtime day on the hill. Small pack, extra layer, some food, some water, and on that day a 45-70 stoked with 405gr cast.




(and the self-propelled bear detector....grin)

the only bears I worry about are those that walk upright. I don't like anyone enough nor am I agreeable enough to participate in some crap on a hiking trail.

DocRocket,

Thanks for that intelligent post, and sharing your personal experience, which is far more than some of the self-appointed experts that have contributed(?) to this thread.

Not referring to you Doc, but reading this whole thread, the thought also occurred to me that it seems that frequently the first sign of arrogance is when a poster labels anyone else that doesn't agree with him as "arrogant". I think I may be onto something here.

What I have read on bear spray is always shoot down wind. If it blows back in your face you are fcked up and the bear would have a tasty meal. I don't think a firearm is that wind sensitive at close range. JMHO

I could be guilty of arrogance now and then, but I honestly am not bothered if others agree with me or not.

Yep Doc...that was good...

Now just don't go arrogant on us because you are " The Most Interesting Man in the World"....

Stay thirsty my freind....

When I hike in griz country, I carry bear spray. When I camp in a campground in griz country, I take a 44 Mag to bed with me at night. Black bears don't worry me. If you spend most of your time on the AT and just hit towns to get food etc then people prolly won't be a prob. If I wanted to carry a piece on the AT, it would prolly be a .38 snubbie..small, light, adequately effective.

Do you suppose the bear will patiently wait until you move around to his upwind side so you can spray him?

I bagged a pair of peaks (just over 10 miles) today with a good portion of it on the AT (branched off at one point to go up the Flume Slide but looped back on).



There has big jump in "nuisance bear" issues at/around the Liberty Spring Tentsite. I guess my pard and I can both be labelled as idiots based on what we were carrying. I don't worry much about bears, though.....

George

this line got me good--a real good laugh !

i note he was online on the 8th, so he may have garnered a juicy tidbit or two out of all the informative posts.

i could reckon he'll be well armed with info when the ap hike is done though...

Doc, check out the current issue of "Sports Afield". There is an article that discusses a recent report that was co-authored by five experts in the field of Bear Defense. They studied 269 incidents involving bear/human conflicts in Alaska over a 26 year period.

I found the article very interesting, but I doubt if it will change the minds of many people here, most of which have never seen a grizzly bear in the wild.

When I'am on the AT I carry a keltec .380, Don't plan on getting in any firefights up there. As for the black bears I encountered, they don't hang around long enough to get sprayed. They don't like humans, they associate them with loud bangs.

The POINT TO REMEMBER about THIS THREAD is IT'S ABOUT SUMMER-[bleep]-TIME BAKCPACKING... not horsey packing, not dayhiking. It's about an already BURDENED person adding what many of us consider UNNECESSARY additional SUMMERTIME weight when one's trying to pare away ounces everywhere.

That many non-backpackers have chimed in here is arrogant and funny. You have no reason to have an opinion. OK, you can have your opinion like your azzhole, but not all opinions are created equal.

I've had a pile of pistols from a FA 4-3/4" 454 Casull to the S&W 63 22lr. I like pistols. I'm a decent handgun shot.

ON SUMMERTIME BACKPACK TRIPS I FIND AS PISTOL AN UNNECESSARY BURDEN WHEN SPRAY IS DOCUMENTED AS MORE EFFECTIVE AND IS LIGHTER.

In the fall when hunting things change. In a bear encounter I'll take a rifle over any pistol, and bear spray over any pistol. I pack a Ruger Security Six with hard-cast 180 LBT's when packing out dead elk... it's right there with spray but as a backup to the spray.

Were I bowhunting again I'd be packing a pistol and spray... a bowhunter is doing everything he shouldn't be doing in terms of having a bad bear encounter.

For [bleep] SAKE people, read the damn thread in context... this one is about summertime backpacking.

And the point about taking a human life stands as someone that's been there... you can blow your macho-[bleep] mouth all you want about taking a life, but it's a terrible thing.

And BTW Shane, even in a menopausal rage, I could hike your azz into the ground, and that's no guess.

Brad,

Heed you own advice there hero. Because you seem to be reading impaired I took the trouble to pare down the OP so you could figure out what the grownups are discussing.



A spray can of hot sauce is not the answer to this question no matter how much you want to justify your decision to let fate rule your outcome. Ease off the granola.

As I said to the OP dumbazz (speking of reading impaired), you'd better be thoroughly and properly trained if you're going to carry in terms of the two-legged variety. I'd be willing to bet most that have posted here AREN'T. If not, you're better off with Mace and a knife.

But you're one of the penis impaired macho azzholes that seem to dominate this forum as a rule.

and a handgun would have prevented them getting shot in their sleep? wow.

Is it really that hard???

Not worried about black bears much at all. Only cougars around here are of the human variety. Have hiked several stretches of the AT in NC with numerous females. Gary Michael Hilton killed a couple not far from where I trout fish. I hike and camp a lot in the back county in WNC. I carry a pistol with a minimum .40 when I am out, humans bother me way more than any critter we have around here. Never had the need for bear spray, have been glad I had a pistol several times. And, Yes I have the mind set and training to use it.

Carry what you want, it is your personal decision that you have to live or die with. Never met Montana Marine, but have never known him to be arrogant or give bad advice.

I suppose I can continue to have an opinion as I have done "SUMMER-[bleep]-TIME BAKCPACKING" on the AT (disclosure: all in New England so far).

That said, I will continue to carry on my trips. It doesn't bother me if you, or anyone else, chooses not to do so in order to cut down weight. I made a decision a long time ago relative to off-duty carry and I stand by it.

Out of curiosity, how often do you carry in general?

George

I don't care who you are that schit is funny.



I doubt it and so did the OP. A spray can of hot sauce would not have saved the day, either.

My handgun (phallic symbol) will go a long way to preventing me from getting shot while I am awake. Nothing will save you if you are sleeping when you should be awake and proper precautions go a long way keeping you from being a victim.

Some choose to go through life hoping a �reason� for a pistol never shows up, our friend Brad is the classic example, others choose to live in a more proactive manner.

Roll the dice and takes your chances.

then some people choose to go through life hoping a "reason" for a pistol does show up...

I've met him and he's a good dude. Be happy to share a camp with him. Others on here, maybe not so much.

I go through life hoping a "reason" for a pistol never shows up as well......but I prefer to be prepared just in case....

Prezactly.

Count me in.
Here is 7.5 inches of throbbing power.


Only 5.5 inches but hey if 6 is average then that really isn't bad. Is it???

Speaking of small penises, you never saw a thread you didn't want to choke with hero shots... tiny bears BTW. Should've let them grow up.

Yep, that's me... arrogant, and thirsty.

Most Interesting, I dunno... although I do tend to hang out in a tuxedo with my tie undone with hot younger chicks a lot more lately than I used to...

Damn, those are my big ones. It only goes downhill from there but luckily the pistols stay big and �turgid�.

I could post a pic of my truck if that would help. It is also kinda big.

I must be compensating for something.

One thing is for sure Brad at least you have your 50 year old good lady friend to hide behind when the boogey man shows up, that must be comforting.

John, one thing's for sure, you were the ugly kid that couldn't get laid in HS and has made a career out of that frustration.

I'll check it out, if I can find it on the newsstands... but keep in mind that I now live in West Texas, where the more popular outdoors mags run along the lines of Helicopter Hoghunter and Dynamite-Fishing Digest... so I might not find a copy easily...


But the story you describe is probably based on the Herrero et al. study.

Like I said, I'm a confirmed pepper spray guy in bear country, regardless whether black or grizzly. Studies show it works most of the time, and any encounter with a bruin that leaves him/her and me alive is a win/win as far as I'm concerned. But I've had to sling lead twice in this lifetime on bruin and as far as I'm concerned there is NO replacement for displacement. As in, large projectiles displacing large volumes of cardiovascular organs in the target organism.

Looking at where that trail runs I have to believe there are places there you could not even legally carry a hand gun. Especially if you crossed a State line.

In MA you'd be arrested.

Another reason not to live back East.

Brad, from what I've seen you post, I would say you are a very knowledgeable hiker and backpacker including the things associated with those activities such as clothes and equipment. I would also guess by your pictures you can combine those skills with elk hunting and do it successively.

IMO, that's where you are at your best here. No need for the animos where there is a disagreement.

And that, sadly, I agree completely with.

George I wouldn't disagree. I'm a bit worn-thin (30 days in a row with 1 day off) and am tired of the lazy, macho, reading impaired, do-nothings on this forum that make a living sniping on others heels.

That wouldn't include you in any way BTW... you are the voice of sound, actual wisdom, and I'm going to sit on my hands from here on.

Bless you man... thanks for your kind thoughts.

That's good to know.

Since backpacking is a passion of yours, I would hope you can get up a hill.

I did the human pack mule thing more than once or twice, but that isn't a passion of mine.

And if you look at the title of this thread it says HIKING. That can be a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

The funny thing is, I do read many of your posts and admire most of the stuff you have recounted here. Your actions are worthy of respect. It's YOU who is a strange bird.

Have a great day.

Shane, I will have a great day. And I've said to my friend Dober, there's one guy I'd love to spend a day with to learn a few things, and that's you. You may find that hard to believe, but I mean it. I could learn a LOT in a few hours shooting with you.

Well that seems kinda mean.

Yup.

Herrero is one of the co-authors of the report that is cited. The author of the article makes a good point. That is, it's kind of silly to argue about bear spray vs. firearms (I suspect he reads the campfire), when there's no rule that says you can't carry both, and I do when I'm in griz country.

Well, Sunshine, I have to bust yer bubble here a bit...

I've done a LOT of alpine miles on shanks pony. Most of them in "summer-[bleep]-time", as you put it, because where I grew up and lived the larger part of my adult life, "summer-[bleep]-time" was all we had. As in June through October, and outside of that you were on skis or snowshoes.

My first bear kill was in August, at point-blank range with a .303 sporter I'd borrowed from my cousin and never expected to see use of until the black bear boiled out of my friend's corn patch at me with blood in his eye. My second defensive use of firearms on a bear was in August across the Freeman River in Alberta's Swan Hills. That bear (which was probably a black, but might have been a sub-adult griz, truth to tell) lived to tell his buddies about it, but it took two 12 gauge slugs in the dirt between his paws at bad-breath distance to change his mind about me being his next Happy Meal.

My only use of pepper spray on a bear was on a mama griz in July at bad-breath distance in Kananaskis with two or perhaps three bawling cubs orbiting around us in tight cover near a trout stream while me and mama both schitt our pants.

Of my 30+ close encounters with aggressive bears, all but one have occurred between July 4 and Labor Day.

So let's not dismiss "summer-[bleep]-time" as a time to not be concerned about bear attacks, Sunshine. Bears have one job from the time they wake up in the spring til the time they go to sleep in the fall: eating. And if you look tasty to a bear, then you're a problem. Moreover, if you look to a bear like you're threatening his food cache, berry patch, or just his general grumpy territory, then you're a problem.

Stephen Herrero's first book, Bear Attacks, opened a whole lot of people's eyes to the ethology of bears, and to the reality that death by bear-ingestion, while rare, is not easily pigeon-holed. If you want to avoid being a bear casualty, you have to learn about bears.

I've spent years and years in bear country, learning about bears. Like BCBrian, I consider my outdoors experience to have been incredibly enriched by being in bear country. But my experience of bears has taught me that there are no absolutes. You can't dismiss black bears as harmless (they kill waaaaay more people than griz, and they eat us, too). You can't say griz are harmless at some time and harmful at others. There's no easy solutions.

I have never been mugged, but I carry a handgun every day and train with my handguns in preparation for such a possibility. I have never had my car catch fire, but I keep a fire extinguisher in each of my vehicles in anticipation of such an eventuality.

I have never been mauled by a bear, but I've been closer to being mauled and/or hunted and eaten by a bear than I have to being mugged or burning my car up. And when I go into bear country, whether it's "summer-[bleep]-time" on the Appalachian Trail, or the height of elk season in the high country along the Great Divide, I carry everything I'm authorized to carry to deal with bruin and I make no apologies for doing so.

That usually means a medium-bore rifle or short-barrel 12-gauge long arm with a .45 caliber revolver on my hip, and a couple of cans of pepper spray on my other hip. And my kids will each have a can of bear spray, and one or more of them will have a revolver or a shotgun.

You want to trust your life to bear spray? Be my guest. It's better than nothing, I'll give you that. But bear spray, a slug gun, and a .45 Colt gives you mo-bettah options.

Damn Brad,

Here we were just talking about hot sauce and pistolas and you go and get all mean and stuff.

It wasn�t like I said you were hiding behind the skirts of your 50 yr old good lady friend (you know the one that shoots better than you) when the boogey man showed up or anything of that sort.

Why you gotta get all mean and schit.

Side note here is another of those pistol bullet proof bears that scare you so much.

7.5 inches of pure manhood baby.

Well, then. We have a meeting of minds. Let's move on. There's way too much dumbphuckitude on this here thread, which I studiously avoided until today, and which I will scrupulously avoid hereafter.

Can't believe how many bear/cougar/jabberwockie attack experts there are here on the 24HCF.

Ditto

He do have a way with words, don't he?

Well, since you seem to love Dr. Hererro, you might wan to actually read him (he was one of those I was referencing earilier):

"Canadian bear biologist Dr. Stephen Herrero reached similar conclusions on the basis of his own research, which suggests that a person�s chance of incurring serious injury from a charging grizzly bear doubles when bullets are fired rather than when bear spray is used."

That's about as kindly as I can put it...


http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2009/3018/pdf/FS09-3018.pdf

http://missoulian.com/news/state-an...0d338b6-7638-11e1-b809-0019bb2963f4.html

John, quite the opposite... you seem to be scared of bears since you kill so many puny ones. Me, I respect them but don't fear them in the least. Obviously, since I'm the "idiot" that just carries spray...

Thinking along those lines it is hard to believe that someone has not came out with skunk spray.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2009/3018/pdf/FS09-3018.pdf

I must have missed the part in the OP where he gave the slightest schit about grizzly bears.

Hows that reading thing working for you, Brad?????

Ever heard of the the AT????

Ever heard of 2 legged predators?????

Love and kisses

Your pal John

Jayzus, Sunshine... get over yer hurt feelers and move on...

I studied under Herrero. Trust me, of any of the emotions one can have for a perfesser, "love" ain't one I EVER felt for him. But I do respect him, and I've read just about everything he's written on bear ethology, so don't try to take me to school.

You've got a reference to a peer-reviewed credible paper that supports your "overwhelming evidence" assertion about the superiority of bear spray over firearms, I'd love to read it. Herrero's opinions, such as the one you quoted in your post, do NOT trump the work that Herrero and his co-researchers, and others, have put out in the literature that DO NOT support a significant superiority of bear spray over firearms. (6% might be "statistically significant", but in my book as an outdoorsman that don't cut the mustard...)

As for putting it kindly, put it in a pipe and smoke it.

In Other words, you don't agree with your Hero Herrero?

"a person�s chance of incurring serious injury from a charging grizzly bear doubles when bullets are fired rather than when bear spray is used."

<SIGH>

Cite a study, Sunshine.

Not a [bleep]' opinion, like the one from Herrero you dredged up. He ain't MY hero, although I'm beginning to suspect he might be yours...

YOU stated that the EVIDENCE was overwhelmingly positive in favor of pepper spray over the use of firearms. The literature doesn't support your assertion, Sunshine. I cited (loosely, I gotta admit) the ONLY peer-reviewed study on this comparison published to date, and it doesn't prove much...

Whatever. I'm outta here. I can't [bleep]' educate people who don't wanna be educated. NOT that I'm in a position to educate, as I'm no [bleep]' ex-spurt on this subject, but at least I believe I've pointed out that YOU are even less of one. C�st la vie.

I got loads to load, and hunting season is ripening. I got better things to do than argue with yer dumb ass on this non-issue. Do what you want, and say what you want. I don't give a rat's ass about it.

I'm beginning to think your name ain't sunshine... or Doc anything...

"When it comes to self defense against grizzly bears, the answer is not as obvious as it may seem. In fact, experienced hunters are surprised to find that despite the use of firearms against a charging bear, they were attacked and badly hurt. Evidence of human-bear encounters even suggests that shooting a bear can escalate the seriousness of an attack, while encounters where firearms are not used are less likely to result in injury or death of the human or the bear."

http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/grizzly/bear%20spray.pdf

Evidence, Sunshine... evidence...

Ciao...

You have no evidence despite your demand for same, but your hero whom you cite, Doc Herrero, has done quite a bit of investigation as has the US FWS:

The question is not one of marksmanship or clear thinking in the face of a growling bear, for even a skilled marksman with steady nerves may have a slim chance of deterring a bear attack with a gun. Law enforcement agents for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service have experience that supports this reality -- based on their investigations of human-bear encounters since 1992, persons encountering grizzlies and defending themselves with firearms suffer injury about 50% of the time. During the same period, persons defending themselves with pepper spray escaped injury most of the time, and those that were injured experienced shorter duration attacks and less severe injuries.

You're a "doc" of what?

"Canadian bear biologist Dr. Stephen Herrero reached similar conclusions based on his own research -- a person�s chance of incurring serious injury from a charging grizzly doubles when bullets are fired versus when bear spray is used."

Bustin Bears with a pistol is not a big thing for grownups, Brad.

Stopping a brutal assault from a 2 legged predator with hot sauce is very problematic but hey you got a 50yr old female good friend to hide behind so Dude keep the faith.

Don�t let these silly bastards grind you down, you got things, heck you won this thread. (eat Granola, it will keep you safe)

It would be intersting to see hard number statistics on bear defense. Most of this is percentages, "most of the times" and vague generalities. That kind of vague information suspect as usually is linked to an agenda.

Here's a fairly hard factual list of fatal bear attacks in NA, broken down by date, place, species, and a short description. Unfortunately not much info about defense attempted.

The mapper does show the AT region getting it's share of action.

No shortage of summertime attacks either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America

Especially if they're runt sized cubs.

Here is a tip for photos of midget bears killed with the pistola.

Use a slow shutter speed and move the bears head and it will not appear as small as it really is.

That smart azz Tanner will dog you on photo quality but you will skate on runt factor.

I've been looking at this thread and that pic is still awesome JB!

Ha Ha SmartAzz.

I packed that lil one out inside an Oprey Internal whole. That picture grossy exaggerates the size of that bear and it does look small in the picture. It ate good.

Great to see you posting again JB!

I was gonna' ask if you packed it out in one of those baby-carrier slings...

Just kiddin'!

Dude,

You have no idea how close you are with that.

Again it ate good and a kid at your age should show more respect for your elders.

My bad, sir

I still say Glock 22.

Lay some suppressive fire on the gap-toothed "squeal like a pig!" hillbillies, AND still have ammo left to pick off the charging bears one by one.

This stuff is just not that hard, people.

Funny how the thread has turned into a pissing match about handguns vs spray for grizzlies when the original post was about handguns for defense from humans on the AT. The funniest part is the guy screaming the loudest about spray and grizzlies is also the guy yelling at everyone to stay on topic.

Anyway, the biggest threat around these parts (TN) is meth cookers, pot growers, and the meth heads looking for $ for their next score. It may not have been that way when Brad hiked the AT at 16, but it is today. I carry everywhere it's legal and there's no reason not to when hiking. Like most of us, I hope to God to never have to use my gun in self defense, but I want the option if the need ever does arise.

There a ton of good self defense options these days that don't weigh much more than a can of spray. My personal choice for minimum carry is an alloy framed Smith 642 that's under a pound and maybe 20 ounces loaded. If buying new now, I'd look hard at the S&W Shield in 9mm. Either are lightweight, effective, and good insurance. If a man's burdened too greatly by a 1.5 pound insurance policy, they've got bigger issues.

Heck, you might even come across a good opportunity to hone your skills with your carry gun if you have it with you all the time out on the trail.

I can only imagine what Phil Shoemaker thinks of this thread.

You're going to cause him a stroke posting a pic of a coyote in a hiking thread.

I'll admit it wasn't a backpacking trip, but I was hiking...

I ran into an �alleged� meth head 2 week ago.

Watched him hit a deer on the road with his Corvette.

Watched him beat up his girlfriend and throw her in the ditch.

When I got her in my truck she had a cigarette burn under her eye where he �allegedly� held his cigarette to teach her a lesson earlier.

He returned to the scene moments after the Deputy arrived ( 20 min response time) and I got to see a high speed chase.

Deputy took him into custody at gun point. Funny cause he had both a Taser and Hot Sauce but for some reason chose the �less effective pistol�.

A can of hot sauce would not have made me feel very comfortable waiting on the Calvary but the M&P on my belt helped a little. The 16 inch carbine helped even more.

Best post in the last dozen pages in this thread.


ddj

Sooooooo What is the proper caliber to defend against hopped up meth head under sized grizzly/black bears on two legs when hiking the AT in Montana,Wyoming and Canada only in the summer and in town of course.

Clearly, you need one of these...

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/6883276/XP_100_338AX#Post6883276

Quoting an author's opinion is a lot different from citing evidence published in a paper.

For example, people often repeat the "98%" effectiveness of pepper spray, yet the paper from which that figure was taken, (Smith, et al., 2006) says the following:

"Our research shows that bear deterrent spray is an effective tool for defusing bear�human conflict in a nonlethal manner... bear spray was [b]92% effective by our definition of success... [while] 98% of persons carrying it were
uninjured after a close encounter with bears."[/b]

But, in the same paper the authors state that "In 18% of cases we analyzed (13 of 72), both brown and black bears resumed their threatening behavior after having been sprayed the first time."

Which begs the question, how did they define "success" in the use of bear spray? If we subtract 18% from 92%, we see that only 74% of bears sprayed are fully deterred from their aggressive behavior. This is a far cry from the 92% effectiveness claim touted by the spray proponents on the internet! The authors admit that bears might need to be sprayed multiple times in order for the person(s) involved to escape. They also admit that subsequent sprayings are often less effective than the initial use in most cases. And in fact, bear spray residue on clothing and equipment may attract bears and actually trigger bear aggression.

Yet the same authors in the same paper denigrate firearms use because attacking bears need to be shot an average of 4 times before they are killed. Hmmm... so they say that firearms are not good, because they often require repeated applications, but spray is good, even though it often requires repeated applications. Having been trained in reading academic papers critically, this strikes me as bias.

Another set of studies by Smith, Herrero, and others, was touted in Missoula this past winter. This was widely publicized and has been repeated on a number of bear attack websites. Stephen Herrero spoke at this conference, and reported on two studies that seemed to show spray was a "better" response to bear aggression than firearms. One study looked at firearms, the other study looked at spray. The two studies were not related, and methodology was quite different, so it's apples to oranges, and the conclusions you can draw from comparing the studies are not very solid.

Nonetheless, a bunch of bear attack websites and a ton of academics have seized upon this as "proof" that spray is "better" than firearms. What they fail to do is apply the caveats that the researchers explicitly stated in their talks:

"The caveats: The firearms study was much more extensive, with 269 incidents involving 444 hunters. The spray study had 72 incidents with 175 people, and included a mix of less-dangerous encounters and full-on attacks. So the two studies aren�t directly linked."

In another study published in 2011 which was discussed on the 24HCF, Smith et al. noted that people who used firearms in bear defense appeared to have been much closer to the bear when the attack started than people in the pepper spray studies, and the level of bear aggression faced by firearms users appeared to be much greater than that of spray users. Spray users hit the bears when the bruins were posturing, standing on hind feet, walking toward the people, and so forth, whereas firearms users were more often dealing with a bear that was charging or in actual contact with the person(s). Spray users were being actively mauled by the bear significantly less often than firearms users. (I'm still looking for that paper in my office, which I printed out at the time.)

Gary Shelton's studies have also shown that spray can be highly effective when bears are not in actual contact with the person(s) in question, but when the bear is physically mauling you, its effectiveness is much less certain. I refer you to his series of books, Bear Attacks: The Deadly Truth, Bear Attacks II, and Bear Encounter Survival Guide.

All of the authors I have studied, including Shelton, Herrero, Smith, and others, share the same thesis: knowledge of bear behavior and modification of human behavior accordingly is the most important factor in avoiding injury in a bear encounter. Because my outdoor interests put me square in the middle of dense bear populations from the early 1970's until the late 1990's, I learned everything I could from these people to improved my chances of survival. As I stated previously, I had 3 bear encounters that required use of firearm or spray (and since on the first one I was actually bear hunting, I'm not sure that qualifies), and I have never been touched, bitten, or otherwise harmed by a bear in close to 3 dozen close bear encounters.

Shelton is a strong proponent of carrying and using (and knowing how to use!) bear spray, as are Herrero, Smith, and others. I am also a strong proponent of bear spray.

However, Shelton has become stronger in his advocacy of firearms for high-risk persons (B.C. forestry workers, etc.) because his work has shown that as bear populations increase in concert with increased human activity in bear country, the probability of highly aggressive bear attacks increases, and his studies show that highly aggressive bears are probably less likely to be effectively stopped with spray. He cites numerous examples in his books of bears that were initially turned by spray, but then came back for another go-round. Such bears are rarely controlled with anything less than a lethal dose of high-velocity lead.

The bottom line is this: despite the conclusions of many "experts" who say that there is overwhelming evidence of the superiority of spray over firearms, I haven't seen that evidence yet in my reading of the literature. If you read the papers that have been published critically, you find that there is no direct head-to-head study that conclusively proves this. The apples-to-oranges rule violation is seen again and again.

So I say again, and truly mean this: if you can cite a paper that truly shows this superiority of spray over firearms, I'd love to read it. But I haven't seen that study yet, and there are a lot of bear biologists out there who share my skepticism.

"Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks Region 4 bear manager Mike Madel [who attended the Missoula conference and was quoted in the news article] said the results are pretty convincing.

Madel said, 'Still, I know a lot of bear managers who would like to rely on their firearm.'"

In other words, there are a lot of people with far more experience and expertise than you or me who continue to carry their firearms in bear country, even though they may also carry bear spray.

Good post. I realize we are far off the original topic though. The OP wanted to know what handgun to carry while backpacking on the AT, primarily to deal with bad guys and secondarily with problem animals. There are plenty of lightweight revolvers and auto pistols that will satisfy his needs.

Bear deterrence is obviously not a simple thing because circumstances vary widely and the behavior of individual animals varies too. It's easy to cite a few sentences or statistics as being gospel but the reality is much more complex. I don't hike in grizzly country that often (although I did last month) but I think it's really a tradeoff between how much weight you are willing to carry and how much perceived security the defensive items you carry provide based on your skills and knowledge. Different people will come up with different answers to this problem.

I would agree that if Phil Shoemaker has read this thread he's probably shaking his head.

Let me say that I've been to AK the Bob, and other places where grizzlys, black bear and cougars-no, not that kind-tend to roam; I've been where we've seen brownies every day, some as close as a 100 yds and in, just doing their thing. They scented us, "stood," and knew we were there but there was plenty of room and no cubs around (that we knew of),so they were fine, and this was open, tundra country. The biggest trees up there are alders with trunks about the size of a slender, feminine wrist, and those only down in the creek bottoms. Let me add here that the biggest hole you can get at the end of a steel barrel at those times makes you feel a whole lot better about the whole matter than a can of pressurized, "cajun" spice. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

In other words, the country made you feel like you just walked into your senior class prom without any clothes on. I carried a 340 B even though they were "just caribou and black bear hunt," so, I felt OK even though our guide chose to keep bacon, pancake mix, eggs and such things in his tent...right next to ours. This made me deep breathe and talk to myself a couple of times.

While I'm am expert in pitiful few things, I know that in country where you are isolated from immediate help from others, I'll carry a firearm that is probably bigger than PC world views would dictate--I am very poor at PC world views by the way. Just chalk it up to my insecurity in general.

But,[/i]this [i]is about the AT; Ok, I'm still going to pack something. I'm much less knowledgeable than Brad at backpacking or hiking and I know only too well about extra weight from staggering about the mountains chasing elk, but I can do it even though the cogniscenti may scoff at me.. After boring you with the previous drivel, I'll leave it with this--I'd be packing a J-frame S&W .357 with 158-gr SWC's 38s and feel pretty groovy about it. And there, as usual, are a host of other shorties that would probably work and be just as good.

So, if the OP ever chimes back in, he can tell us what worked for him.

Actually, this goes right to the point that our world, our country, is not as safe as it once was in my now spent youth. There are now many predators out there many of which walk upright. That would be my biggest concern on the AT though I've never traveled it.

If I thought it would work out, I'd try to not be as paranoid.

s&w 329PD with 240 gr xtp's moving at 1250 FPS. carry it in a Diamond D chest holster with 6 extras in the loop and a speed loader in your pocket. that said, might be kind of interesting to use a chest holster and a backpack at the same time. would require some fitting for sure.

I have a S&W 329 Night Guard, you don't even know its on your belt.

Glock 19 or Glock 20 in a Hill People Gear Kit Bag. For the AT I would consider my S&W 360 Scandium Kit Gun. I sold a 7-shot Scandium 386 like a moron. That was just about the perfect bush gun.

I carry for two legged vermin, in the defense of mine (tall blondes (not skinny, but just right), sons, daughter in laws, grandsons, etc.) but I always appreciate critical thinking.

For the record I'll accept a life changing event and the disdain of others in the defense of my family.

Charlie

What do you carry, Chas?

Funny thread. Must be slow at the Burger King.

Cheap Ruger SR9, werks pretty good at 10ft, even better at 5...

Charlie

It is a rare week that I don�t spend some time by myself in the brush in bear country. If I am working, I generally only carry bear spray. I always carry bear spray in an air travel container in my rig, spring through fall, so I never leave home without it. If I am playing in the brush, I�ll carry a Model 94 Trapper .30-30. CP.

A play-day in the Tobacco Roots

Will this thread pass the "what does 223 ai mean?" thread in back and forth for 500 pages?

Nope.

It ain't got the legs.

Not even close.

CP-next time we meet up @ the range if you think of it bring along that lil Trapper I'd love to shoot it just a bit...grin

I missed one of those at a G-show a couple years back, that was one that I wished wouldn't of gotten away.

Not BPing but when hiking I've been known to carry my Ruger 44 semi rifle.

Dober

Mark, I enjoyed our range time and conversation this week at Logan.

I made my Trapper a little more trail-handy by taking the saddle ring and ring post off. I also eliminated the cross-bolt safety with this fix:
http://www.gunblast.com/LFCombs-Win94.htm

And damn those senior moments-You betcha, I am also running Varget in my T-3 .22-.250.

I also have a Marlin 30-30 336 with receiver sights and an 06 in a 1895 that I�ll bring along when we get together to shoot the Trapper. CP.

Those trapper's are nice handy little rigs.. I almost walked out of the door today with one, at Mark's favorite gun shop, in .45 LC.. That would be some big fun on tin cans and critters.

Got 3 16in Marlins. 44mag, 30/30 and 45/70. Handy as a pocket on a shirt. I'm pissed I missed the 357 when it was out.

Got an 1894 in 44 Mag with AO ghost ring and ramp front, the 1895G in .45-70 with AO ghost ring and ramp front, and the 444P with Leupold VX-3 1.5-5x20. Also a standard 336C in .30-30 with the same Leupold.

Or the cleavage..........

Would that it did..

This little [bleep] is sweet. I think it weighs about as much as a cell phone and a decent set of keys.

I want to get one for just walking/working around the riverbottom.

No bears here but other things that might need to get shot.

[bleep] spray, a little 22 hollow point is gonna hurt alot more.

I really like those little Trapper 94 30-30's. I had bought one back in the early 80s. Gave it away whe Orders forced a move and didn't have a convenient place to store it.

Same thing happened to me with a Marlin 39A. I think I got $50 out of it.

I hear ya.

Besides the Trapper 30-30, I've 'gifted' A Rem 788 308Win, and a Marlin 1895 45-70, under the same circumstances.

I guess I'm either generous, or......

I gave a Mossberg 835 with Aimpoint to the son of a friend when they moved away. Gave a Smith 4506 and a Beretta 21 to two other friends. And I wasn't under any orders. You only live once, and you can't take this stuff with you. I do sometimes miss that Beretta 21, though.

Politics make for strange thinking, and those that dwell on politics excessively seem to come up with strange ways.

In our society today, it seems that many who clamor for the permission of the state to carry concealed are considered conservative.

A hundred years ago, or so, it was conservative men who legislated handguns off the street as a nuisance and a threat to peaceful society.
Of course, 100 years ago, the liberals hadn't jacked our society around to the point where any and all behavior was accepted as "normal".

most Americans today have the right to be issued a permit from the state to carry a weapon, and given the nature of some of our urban areas, i'd probably do so if i spent much time there.
Still, the idea that a man without a handgun is completely defenseless and helpless simply doesn't jibe with my sense of reality.

If you're heading out for a hiking trip and feel the need for a gun, by all means, take one if you feel like it.

having carried guns and packs in a few places inclines me otherwise, at least in rural or semi-rural America.
but that's just me...

The congo, south central honduras, or lake shore drive might be a different story...

Well it's pretty late in the thread but I thought I might share my choice based on hiking around Eastern Kentucky which is pretty similar to the AT. My two carry revolvers seem to center around my s&w model 14 K38 and my model 43 stainless kit gun the later seeing the most use besides a ruger 22 std auto. So far I have pot shot 2-3 squirrels but mostly my ammo has been consumed shooting walnuts buckeyes and hickory nuts that I lined up on a stump or log. In this part of the country a 22 is an excellent choice as it is cheap, a box of ammo easily slips into a pocket and they are just darn fun. As to protection I have never really felt under gunned as a 22 is still a very deadly weapon. As to snakes the few I have walked up on ( Intrepret nearly stepped on) I can honestly say drawing my pistol and neatly shooting it in the head was not the first reaction I had when I finally saw it. After leviating in mid-air running or broad jumping 20-30 feet while richocheting off a couple of trees & riding down several saplings the size of my wrist I figured there is no use going back to find it and shoot it as I am out of striking distance by the time I remember my pistol.

Just reading through. Some good points, some funny, some bizarre...

This comment stood out though. Not sure how someone with out "thorough and proper" training is supposed to fair better in a knife fight than they would would in a situation where they could spray an azzhole and then shoot if he's still a threat?

I'll take a can of spray and a pistola, thanks. If the sub 2lb pistol becomes an issue I'll leave the Fairbairn Sykes fighting knife at the mall ninja shop.

I've often thought about Brad's point regarding training and proficiency with a handgun. I shoot a lot of pistol and see the majority of folks at the range have difficulty shooting reasonable groups at even poker table distances. IME, pistol shooting is like my golf game, if I take time off from it, my accuracy suffers. I wonder how effective the average person would be in a SHTF scenario considering what I've observed in benign range settings. It does seem like a pepper spray option may be better than a handgun for some.

I've always looked at SHTF scenarios like other emergency situations like home fires, car accidents, etc. How much insurance do I need given the conditions and worst case scenario probability. Hiking, climbing, day hiking, etc., the cost of a firearm is generally weight. In terms of the coverage and security it provides, it's based mostly on proficiency. I guess if you feel like you can get it done under the pressure of a life-threatning scenario, go with the firearm. If you have doubts, maybe other options are more suitable (situation deterance, pepper spray, etc.).

I prefer a rifle or pistol (if anything at all), but like some, I'm school and real-world trained in their use. I don't tell people what car insurance policy they should get, so I won't tell them what they should do here. I would probably suggest that they really guage their proficiency with a firearm before choosing that option. I'm sure some never give it this much thought at all.

As to the original question...for some strange reason I like revolvers in a .357 Mag flavor for woods and trail carry. I rarely carry unless I'm really out there with my family or friends. I find I can avoid most SHTF situations with common sense and awareness, but that's road I travel. Yours may be different.

Interesting discussion and a fun read!

You're making WAY too much sense here. I wonder if big-dick Brad has ever read about the AK guide who closed in on a moose in order to shoo him into the open for a client. His plan would have worked but for the fact a huge griz closed in on him and charged him from behind. The bear took him down face first but not before he drew his Freedom Arms Casull. Unable to turn over/around he stuck the pistol behind his head (where the bear was) and squeezed off a shot. The beat chomped down on the muzzle as it discharged. Result? Dead griz, mauled but alive guide with hellacious bar scars, and the guy didn't say anything about whether or not he felt being able to shoot a handgun to Tier One/Seal Team 6 standards played a role in his survival.

The guide sent the gun back to FA and supposedly they offered him a brand new one for it as they felt the tooth marks on the barrel from a grizzly made for quite a display piece.

I wonder (not really) how hot sauce would have worked for him? I'm sure Big Dick will be along to enlighten me/us.

The majority of us on the fire have supported the second A to the point of being legal to protect ourselves. A club does afford some measure of protection, as does the ability to run. I can't believe the posts on here discouraging not carrying when legally feasible.
If more people carried, the world would be a better place. Better safeR than sorry.

Remember, if you ever need a gun and don't have one, you will never need one again.

Now we need to worry about the dangers of carrying for protection.

In my opinion, don't drive if you are tired, wear your seatbelt and watch out for drunk drivers.

I'm reminded of the classic...

"How often do people really get killed around here?"


"Only once."