I picked up a Browning Safari .30-06 last fall. It doesn't seem to have any salt-wood issues and is in about 98% condition. I like it a lot....for now anyway <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> The gun is built on an FN action. Mule Deer wrote an article in Rifle a while back pointing out the good and not as good things about Mauser actions. I've recycled that issue <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> so can't specifically recall what he wrote, but I think that there was a short statement about the Pre-64 Model 70 action being not the safest if a case "failed"; but that it was safer than the FN made Mausers. Am I remembering correctly, for any of those that may have read that article??? If so, can anyone explain what not as safe might mean?
Thanks,
[bleep]

No.

The model 70 is LESS safe than the FN Mausers. The issue is gas blowing down the bolt channel. The Mauser shroud is much better at blocking blow-back.

[bleep],

The FN action is designated as an H-ring Mauser, meaning the C-ring of the M98 is cut away on the left side of the action as well as the right side for the long claw extractor. FN did it to reduce manufacturing costs, and the folks that ended up with the FN manufacturing equipment (like Zastava reportedly has) build a similar action.

jim

HunterJim,

Does that one side being cut away make the FN design less strong or less able to block gasses from coming back at the shooter in the event of case issues?

I've got a .22-250 built on a Zastava Mark X action. It looks a lot like the Browning. The Browning is a whole lot slicker though.


[bleep]

Stuart Otteson says in his book The Bolt Action that it does both of those things, but he doesn't put any numbers on how much less.

It is a joy to handle the FN made rifles because of their finish, it is reallly nice. The Eastern European rifles are made to hit a low price point, and exterior finish is one thing that adds cost. I don't think the Zastava actions are weak. The only comment I have heard is you can shoot out the barrels pretty fast.

How are you doing with your .22-250? I don't have any direct experience with them, I got the barrel comment from a friend who has had a lot of them pass through. He is a reliable source.

jim

A key to gas safety in the Mauser 98 lies in the design of the original cocking piece shroud which has a large forward shoulder that acts as a gas blocker/diverter. Gas coming down the raceway encounters this and is deflected at right angles.

The later shroud as used on the Browning FN rifles was somewhat streamlined and I don't believe it was as effective as the original design for the purpose of deflecting gas but someone could probably have another opinion.

HunterJim,
I'm not sure of the full story on the .22-250. My Grandfather gave it to me about a year before he passed away. It's at least twenty-four years old. The barrel has P.O. Ackley on it. It used to have a P.O. Ackley brand scope too. The scope showed to be made in Japan and was probably private labeled. I was once told at a gun store a long time ago that P.O. Ackley contracted some rifles to be built in Japan with these actions. I don't know if this is true or not.

I put a Timney trigger on it a couple of years ago. I had ejection problems with it. A talented gunsmith here made an extra long ejector blade for it. He was the third smith to try and fix the problem. He said that the action was a little big for the small case. His fix worked.

This .22-250 has taken lots of Hill Country whitetails in the hands of my Dad. I actually took my first game with it this past season, a nice fat yearling doe and a young boar feral hog. I plan to use it a lot more. Funny thing, I never intended for it to happen, but the only bolt-action centerfires that I currently own, are all some type of Mauser <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I always shoot with safety glasses, but something in the back of my mind from Mule Deer's article had me thinking that I would never buy a FN Mauser; but when I shouldered the Browning (yes, I've jumped back to the original thread <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" /> ), I just couldn't help myself. It had to go home with me.

This is neat learning more about Mausers.

Thanks!
[bleep]

You won't regret the Browning FN, especially if you are interested in mausers. The FN shroud still offers protection and is a good looking shroud. The H vs C thing is moot. There are lots of FNs made this way being used worldwide. It is a similar argument to the difference in breeching betwixt the Remington and Winchester--it matters not, practically speaking. The Browning FN is beautifully finished and cheap for what you get.

The only effect of the slot in the left side of the collar is that it leaves the path from the bolt face to theleft locking lug raceway wide open. That is, the opening at the bottom of the bolt face opens right into the raceway rather than against the collar. In reality this likely has little effect as far as gas handling is concerned. All Mausers are pretty good.GD

Post-war FM Mausers come in three flavours,military,'51(200) and supreme(300).For gas handling the military is much,much better than the pre'64 M-70,the tumb cut-out.They all have a flanged bolt shroud.The 200 have a left side two position scope friendly safety and a detatchable floorplate.
The 300 has a Sako trigger with a trigger block safety and a hinged floorplate.They have good alloy steel instead of the nickle-steel of the pre war M-70.

[bleep]
Keep in mind, the original Weatherbys and Sako rifles were all FN Mauser actions. I wouldnt fret too much about gas control or strength, I'd install a Lilja or Kreiger barrel, McMilian stock, load Partitions, shut up and go hunting. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Charlie

Adding a bit to what Downwind said: the Browning FN has an M-70 type trigger, a three position safety, plus the bolt release is flat to the receiver. Not sure, but think these three creature features are unique to the Browning FN version.

tomk
I beleive your right. I dont recall seeing a Wby with the three position safety. Neither a Sako.
Charlie

Military Mausers and early FNs are distinctly less rigid than an M70 partly because of the thumb cut.
Also there is less metal in the receiver rails. The ultimate accuracy of rifles built on 98 actions is less than that of rifles built on the pre64.

I own and have owned lots of both, for 40+ yrs. and I agree with that, although I like both of these actions. I prefer the Brno 21-22 and ZG-47 actions to either though as they have the C ring and my rifles with them shoot as well as anything I have ever shot.

Here is a FN Sporter by FN circa 1949.



The chamber is a 270 Win. It's a heavy rifle and very very accurate. The detail of the checkering and metal work is pre war or pre 64 Supergrade quality.

The trigger is not adjustable and there the M 70 has it all over this FN but the FN is bushing bedded and it stays sighted in.

This rifle has matching serial numbers on the action, barrel and stock.

I use it as a varmint rifle.

On the down side it has excessive headspace. I am a good owner for it as I make brass from 280 Remingtons.

Here is a FN Sporter by FN circa 1949.



The chamber is a 270 Win. It's a heavy rifle and very very accurate. The detail of the checkering and metal work is pre war or pre 64 Supergrade quality.

The trigger is not adjustable and there the M 70 has it all over this FN but the FN is bushing bedded and it stays sighted in.

This rifle has matching serial numbers on the action, barrel and stock.

I use it as a varmint rifle.

On the down side it has excessive headspace. I am a good owner for it as I make brass from 280 Remingtons.

Here's an odd FN. This is a western field built by FW Heym. It has a full C ring, intermediate length FN action. I haven't been able to find that much info on it other than finding a few like it on the web. Just a super nice action that has some of the best features of the military actions and the commercial actions combined.


Good shooting,
Weagle

You lucky bugger!!!

Weagle,
That's a nice rifle. I remember seeing them for sale in the local Western Field store as a kid.
That is a keeper.
Don

Weagle, that looks remarkably like a Western Field mauser I have been trying to find info about! Is that a 2 position safety? Is the trigger guard short (a la Remingtion 700 ADL)? Where is it marked as an FN action? What is the Model # on the barrel? And last but not least, do you have any idea what stock would fit?

Sorry for all the questions, but I have thus far been unsuccessful at finding information about this rifle. I picked one up at a pawn shop with the intention of giving it to my dad, but it needs a new stock.

Thanks for any help you can give.

Stryker 60

Stryker, here is a link to a thread from a while back with some more info on the western field rifle.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads...true#Post406130

There are no FN markings on the action but apparently FW heym bought the actions and used their own barrels to make the rifles for US import by Montgomery Ward with the Western Field markings.

I'm still trying to find additional information.

Weagle

Thanks Much, weagle! That's more information than I've been able to obtain in over a year. A Heym barrelled FN mauser, I guess even with a broken stock I did ok for $200.

Stryker60

I'd give weagle $200 for that rifle right now!! $150 if it's a .30-06<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mike

These two threads were great! I would like to find one of the Western Field/Heym rifles to use for a .376 Steyr; the intermediate length would be perfect for this intermediate length cartridge.

Anybody see any laying around?

thanks...jim

Stryker, You might try one of the stocks made for the model 48 yugos. They may have the correct hole spacing and inletting but I'm not sure.

Look at this link for a some stocks that fit the intermediate lenght 48 mausers. http://www.sporterexpress.com/

Ready on the Right. I'm like you. I wish the rifle was anything but a 30.06 (7x57 comes to mind) but oh well I guess I'll pass on the buck fifty right now <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Did you ever do anything with the 1909 argentine?

Weagle

It's still ripening as we speak, I pulled the barrel and have the action on my computer desk too fondle occasionally. I have another rifle down at Roger Ferrell's getting some work done and I discussed some very preliminary ideas with him for the 09'
Mike

The H-ring Hunter Jim is talking about is a something to be aware of. The Inetrams M-98 actions have that same feature. If you get a case rupture, there is a straight line path for the gas right into the shooter's face.

I have seen that happen, the guy got powder residue all over his face. You wouold have to shoot an undersized case or have a rupture for it to be a problem.

Now the FN is an extremely smooth action and as long as you keep the H-ring in mind there won't be any problems.

However, the FN Wby's were not terribly accurate, prompting Roy to give us the Mk-5 action, carefully crafted factory ammo, and and accuracy guarantee. I believe all that was in response to all the issues involved in stuffing a big Wby case in a short M-98 action and then putting 3/4" of freebore in it.

HunterJim. I think the rifle at this link may be one of the intermediate FN actions. Not sure as I haven't asked any questions but it might be one to build your 376 steyer on.

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=29823105

Good shooting,
Weagle

Weagle,
your intermediate mauser action sounds like the Herters HK3 or J9 model that was kicking around in the 60's and 70's. They were also sold as a Vz 500 action from a distributor in Calif. I have a couple and there are no indications that they were made by FN. Also Frank de Haas has them being made first in W. Germany then later on in Yugoslavia. Are there any markings on the underside of the action. Mine have two small square boxes with numbers in them and made in yugoslavia on the bottom right side front ring. Floorplate is the same as yours and so is the safety. Most of the actions out of FN in Belgium are very prominently marked even the military surplus. These are nice commercial Mauser 98 actions but not as smooth as a FN Supreme of that time period.
There are so many variations of mausers and this is just information I found on the intermediate length. Hope this helps.
Bob

Weagle,

Thanks for posting that link: the EHM code according to one source was assigned to Heym.

I will have to dig up my gunbroker.com log in and query the guy.

thanks again...jim

HunterJim, My rifle is stamped 720 A EHM and the sights, barrel contour and bottom metal look identical to the one that is being auctioned.

RJH, Thanks for the info. The action does not have any marks other than a west German proof before the serial #. (looks like an eagle). It does have a square with a 1 in it on one side of the recoil lug and a circle with a 2 in it on the other side.

Good shooting,
Weagle

Weagle,

The seller says it is a consigned gun with a buy-it now price of $450. That is more than I will pay though. I will put up a bid and we will see.

Thanks again...

jim

I've been out of the office for a few days. Thanks so much for the information and opinions!

Sincerely,
[bleep]

Just a note on the VZ500 action.
While they had a lever release as the rifle pictured above the several I had back in the 60s were not the same as the Herters action. Mine had a right hand saftey and also both had a butter-knife bolt handle. I bought mine from the Covina Gun room in Covina, Kalif. About 2yrs. ago I saw one for sale at a gun store here in town.

An interesting side note, a few years back the same gunshop had for sale a brand new Browning FN in the white with all the markings. They were sold only in Canada as an action.

It's amazing what Sears and Mont. Wards used to bring into this country for the basis of the guns they sold. I just put together a 25 Souper based on a Sako M57. When I bought the rifle it had a barrel marked Mont. Wards-- 308 Win., But the action only says Sako--M57. Pedro

Pedro,
I still have the 1966 Vz 500 brochure from the Gun Room in West Covina and everything you said rings true. I also have the butter-knife bolt handle action like yours. Also have one with the std. FN curved ball handle.Its amazing what stuff you hold onto after all these years. Reference material or Junk ! The Herter Mauser XK9 had the bolt stop / release like a Browning FN.
The Gun Room also called U.S. Rifle and Powder Co. had model A, B, C of these Vz 500 actions for $42.95 and barreled actions for 89.95 Complete stocks and a wide variety of engraving completed the package. Their big marketing ad was a forged receiver with the internal C-ring, not the post war commercial internal H-ring. So many different mausers styles that were available then. Thanks
Bob

About 40 yrs ago I traded a pre 64 Win in on a Husquavarna feather wieght. Both were in 270 Win. The Husquavarna was about 2lbs lighter than the Win., was easier to carry and shot way better. It had a little dinky stock with a schnabel forend that you could feel flexing when over the shoulder on the sling.
This was one of the rifles that I wish I had been smart enough to keep.

A stepson has a very minty Harrington & Richardson 30-06, which also appears to be an FN M98, so we can probably add that one to the Monkey Wards et al list of FN commercial M98 variants.

It has the same "H-cut" as the FN M98 action I built my Douglass-barreled 25-06 on many years ago. That one started life as a Columbian army rifle, so it has the clip charger cut.

Never even paid any attention to that extra cut in the FN, although I own several other M98s (Krauts and a VZ24), until someone mentioned it years ago on the internet.