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Post pertains to Kimbers, ULA/Nula, 'Mountain rifle contour' barrels, or similar.

Curious since we have folks using them in Alaska and the Northwest, vs other areas where temps often a good bit lower.

Knowing barrel heat makes fliers, just curious if lightweight barrels shoot more consistently in these colder areas?

I would expect first shot cold bore POI to be similar.




I dont think it would matter. Im not going to heat either up enough in a typical hunting situation to notice a difference. But then again im not hunting prairie dogs and such where you shoot tons of ammo.
Originally Posted by 65BR
Post pertains to Kimbers, ULA/Nula, 'Mountain rifle contour' barrels, or similar.

Curious since we have folks using them in Alaska and the Northwest, vs other areas where temps often a good bit lower.

Knowing barrel heat makes fliers, just curious if lightweight barrels shoot more consistently in these colder areas?

I would expect first shot cold bore POI to be similar.






as the other guy said, doesnt matter, if yah fire a normal string the barrel heats up just the same.....yeah it can cool down faster but it will get to just about the same temp if your not waiting much between shots....
I don't think so....light barrels can walk from heat but some walk less than others.Especially light barrels not properly stress relieved.

At least that's my observation.

It's kind of hard to say. I don't have one of the named specimens, my light barrelled rifle being a M700 Mountain. My thoughts are these: at cold temps I am content with having the snow, or most of it anyway, cleared from the scope lenses. Then I try to control my breathing, not to avoid shot-muffing so much as to prevent fogging the objective. (There's a follow-through issue here too.) Then, assuming multiple shots are needed, I am now shooting at a moving target, so any MOA shooting is more than likely to be a moot point anyway. But you can often see your misses as they often land and spray in snow, and correct from there if need be.
This same thought was rambling around in my head and for sometime now my opinion has been for some reason I have found them more consistent in cold weather. Right or wrong, I'm not sure. So for what it's worth, 30F out this AM and this is the best overall group this young rifle has shot and the first time it has been shot with temps in the low 30's.

.243W Montana. First three shots out of a cold clean barrel went into an inch cloverleaf. Shot the .22-250 for two strings and then went back to the .243W.

Six shots total-third was the screw-up, but it looked good-load, shoot, load, shoot because things seemed to be going good. Still only an inch group, however Deer workup with the Barnes 80gr TTSX is done I'm thinking.



[Linked Image]
Klik - no doubt, the FIRST shot is often the best for success, and if not made, no matter why, follow up shots are often on running game.

That said, there were a few times in my hunting career that I had to shoot more than once for various reasons, inc. deflected bullets, etc. As to snow, none here - Lol.

I was just curious if temperature affected various owners accuracy results, as some are good, some great, and some, not so much. I know this is assuming equally built guns of the same model, quality ammo, scope, conditions, and shooter skill.

Thanks guys.
Battue, I'd say 'let the good times roll' wink You have a deer killer! TTSX is bad juju as you know. Good hunting! BTW, as you know, a smaller bore of the same OD barrel, means stiffer, and slower to heat up...so a 243 in the same contour POTENTIALLY is more prone to shoot w/more precision than say a 338.
Forgot to add the Nula .22-250 could essentially care less what the ambient temp is. It just keeps pumping out .75in or better groups for the most part.
That's common with NULA's of all barrel weights.

In fact they normally shoot just as accurately with the barrel screaming hot as with it cold, and to the same point of impact as well. That's one reason I often use my NULA .30-06 as a scope-test rifle: I can keep shooting without letting the barrel cool down, getting results a LOT more quickly than if I had to cool the barrel down between shots or groups.

The same applies to the one Forbes Rifle I've tested as well.
A good barrel, regardless of weight, don't cause fliers when it heats up. I've had plenty that I could cook an egg on that shot just as well.
Originally Posted by battue
This same thought was rambling around in my head and for sometime now my opinion has been for some reason I have found them more consistent in cold weather. Right or wrong, I'm not sure. So for what it's worth, 30F out this AM and this is the best overall group this young rifle has shot and the first time it has been shot with temps in the low 30's.

.243W Montana. First three shots out of a cold clean barrel went into an inch cloverleaf. Shot the .22-250 for two strings and then went back to the .243W.

Six shots total-third was the screw-up, but it looked good-load, shoot, load, shoot because things seemed to be going good. Still only an inch group, however Deer workup with the Barnes 80gr TTSX is done I'm thinking.



[Linked Image]


Looks like you have it up and running!
Originally Posted by Steelhead
A good barrel, regardless of weight, don't cause fliers when it heats up. I've had plenty that I could cook an egg on that shot just as well.


As usual, Scott cuts right to it... wink

I agree.

Battue the 243 looks like it will work fine!
Originally Posted by Steelhead
A good barrel, regardless of weight, don't cause fliers when it heats up. I've had plenty that I could cook an egg on that shot just as well.


^^^^
Originally Posted by shortactionsmoker

Looks like you have it up and running!




I think it just had to become confident that it finally found a home were it was going to stay awhile. grin

Addition: No light rifle mojo incantations required other than making sure it was level in the bags and didn't jump around. Light hold on the forearm.
So what makes a ULA/NULA not open up as they heat up?

What makes a rifle more accurate for 3 than 5 shot groups, if heat is not at play, what is?
I don't know. Only thing I can "guess" is that with his tight FLB, the barrel and stock are essentially one piece and are more of a stable unit than when the barrel is FF and can more easily move.

JB can perhaps give a more accurate answer.
Originally Posted by 65BR
What makes a rifle more accurate for 3 than 5 shot groups, if heat is not at play, what is?


Statistics.
battue,

The tight, stiff forend is one factor, but as other people have stated a good barrel doesn't shoot less accurately or change POI when it's hot. Douglas makes good barrels, as do a number of other companies. Many factory barrels are also good, but some aren't.
Originally Posted by mathman
Originally Posted by 65BR
What makes a rifle more accurate for 3 than 5 shot groups, if heat is not at play, what is?


Statistics.


Thank you.
mathman has hit it on the nose.

Very few rifles are accurate enough to group 5 shots as tightly as 3 shots. Even 5-shot groups from benchrest rifles will "open up" a little over 3-shot groups, purely because of the laws of chance.

If you shoot enough shots in a group, the group's diameter will eventually include just about every shot. This is why I test prairie dog rifles with 10-shot groups. Even though the diameter of a 10-shot group doesn't impress many of today's shooters (3/4" is really good) it tells a hell of a lot more about a rifle's accuracy than a 3-shot or even 5-shot group, especially with a hot barrel. And hot barrels are the norm in PD shooting.

One reason 3-shot groups are so popular these days is the chance for a tiny group is so much greater with fewer shots. Then when we shoot one of those semi-accidental one-hole 3-shot groups with our factory rifle we can post it on the Campfire.

This doesn't mean some rifles won't consistently group 3 shots with all the bullet holes touching. Many will, even some factory rifles. I even own a Ruger No. 1 .25-06 that will do it with 75-grain Hornady V-Maxes. But if I shoot a 5-shot group with the same load it's bigger, even if I let the barrel cool down, due to statistical probability.
Another factor is many of us load hot. If it is cold enough to loose 20-50 fps it may just put you into an acuracy node you arent seeing in hot weather.
So, if it's just stats then a 5 shot group shot extrememly slowly with plenty of cool down time will be on average be the same as a 5 shotter shot thru a barrel hot enough for frying eggs right?

Dober
Originally Posted by Mark R Dobrenski
So, if it's just stats then a 5 shot group shot extrememly slowly with plenty of cool down time will be on average be the same as a 5 shotter shot thru a barrel hot enough for frying eggs right?

Dober


No, that's not what I stated or even implied. The poster hypothesized "if heat is not at play" so I answered accordingly. Given a probability distribution, if you take more samples of it you're more likely to see values farther away from its mean.
Ok....good to know

Dober
Though if the barrel is a good one, it should be just as accurate whether shot hot or cold.

One factor that can affect group size in cooler weather, especially on calmer days, is warm air from a heated barrel roiling the view through the scope.

Many other factors tend to increase group size as more shots are fired. It's rare to see shooters put out wind flags when testing loads for accuracy, but a 3-mph "gust" can cause so-called fliers even at 100 yards. I don't do serious accuracy testing without putting out at least one or two flags.

Also, a lot of shooters don't check the parallax on their scopes. A little bit of parallax can result in fliers when more shots are fired, due to the shooter not having his eye in exactly the same position behind the scope for each shot.
Then there are variations in holding the rifle for each shot, or just in pulling the trigger.

All of those factors can add to impression sporter-weight barrels "always" starts to wander as it warms up.
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
battue,

The tight, stiff forend is one factor, but as other people have stated a good barrel doesn't shoot less accurately or change POI when it's hot. Douglas makes good barrels, as do a number of other companies. Many factory barrels are also good, but some aren't.


However, I would think skinny barrels are more affected by heat than those that have a larger diameter. If so, and Melvins rifles still group well even being extremely hot, then his stock and tight bedding must be a significant factor.

Another question would be is heat transfer less of a factor with synthetic stocks vs wood?

Addition: JB, your last reply beat me to the punch and I think you answered some of my questions. Also heat waves coming off the barrel would be less in cold weather and thus may answer part of the 65BRs original question and way some think LW barrels shoot more consistently in cold weather.
Stocks and bedding certainly play a role. I've had wood-stocked rifles that sent bullets marching steadily upward as they warmed -- and ceased to do so when restocked with a synthetic.
Stocks and bedding play a role with all barrels be they skinny or heavy....

Dober
Originally Posted by battue


Addition: JB, your last reply beat me to the punch and I think you answered some of my questions. Also heat waves coming off the barrel would be less in cold weather and thus may answer part of the 65BRs original question and way some think LW barrels shoot more consistently in cold weather.


actually the heat ways should be worse in cold weather due to the greater temp difference......atleat i would think so....
Makes sense.

However, I seem to become more aware of the roll on hot days than cold. Then again perhaps I am confusing barrel waves with those coming off the ground.
Originally Posted by battue
Makes sense.

However, I seem to become more aware of the roll on hot days than cold.


i think thats just cause its more common, ie you can even see it coming off the ground on really hot days.....looking through a scope i would think the heat waves coming off the barrel would be more pronounced in cold weather though.....i notice them more in cold weather but given what ive picked up in this thread so far, what i call cold weather and what the guys down south are calling cold weather aint the same grin
Originally Posted by Mark R Dobrenski
Stocks and bedding play a role with all barrels be they skinny or heavy....

Dober


It's a good thing barrels don't get offended at being called skinny or fat. I can hear the conversations now...

"How dare he call me a bull barrel!"

"Does this stock make my recoil lug look fat?"

"I used to be a No. 2 contour."
My mind has to ask the question, and that's if the light barrels shoot as well as the heavy barrels then why have Snipers long toted rigs with heavy tubes on them...?

Thoughts anyone why these guys would carry the weight when they don't need it?

Thx
Dober
Easier to hold steady, combined with they want suck out every last bit of accuracy they can????


Addition: Just sent some dollars out your way this AM for a new pair of Schnee Outfitter boots. Nice people to deal with.
Originally Posted by Mark R Dobrenski
My mind has to ask the question, and that's if the light barrels shoot as well as the heavy barrels then why have Snipers long toted rigs with heavy tubes on them...?

Thoughts anyone why these guys would carry the weight when they don't need it?

Thx
Dober



Military loves long barrels, nothing like a 30" barreled Swede. I hear to this day that longer barrel shotguns hit harder. Hell, factories are still twisting 22/250's with 14" ROT. It's tough to change old dogs.
Mark,

Some guy did an article for GUN DIGEST or another shooting rag a number of years ago about turning down heavy barrels to see how it affected accuracy. Turned out it really didn't, as long as the barrel he started with was a good one in the first place.

I only have one heavy-barreled varmint rifle anymore, mostly because it's a period piece from the 1960's, a .243 on a Mexican Mauser action with a custom California-style stock. It spoke to me one day at Capital Sports, and for $350 I couldn;t resist.
battue,

Heat waves off barrels are worst on both hot and cold days. On hot days the barrel heats up quicker, and on cold days the slightest amount of heat from the barrel roils the air more.
Originally Posted by Mark R Dobrenski
My mind has to ask the question, and that's if the light barrels shoot as well as the heavy barrels then why have Snipers long toted rigs with heavy tubes on them...?

Thoughts anyone why these guys would carry the weight when they don't need it?

Thx
Dober


the original m40 was something like 11 lbs, I think they're pushing 20 lbs now (m40a5 is current?) I recall reading an article that they really are getting too heavy, but who's gonna complain and who's gonna do anything about it?

FWIW, I love shooting my heavy barrel guns (dislike carrying them). Whether it's the barrels, or just the fact that a heavy gun is more stable, or even that the stocks are designed to sit in sandbags better, I definitely can get more consistent tiny groups out of them than my huntin' guns.
Originally Posted by Steelhead
Military loves long barrels, nothing like a 30" barreled Swede. I hear to this day that longer barrel shotguns hit harder. Hell, factories are still twisting 22/250's with 14" ROT. It's tough to change old dogs.


that's the truth, and the prejudice goes all the way back to those 40" barrel smoothbore musket tomato stakes
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
battue,

Heat waves off barrels are worst on both hot and cold days. On hot days the barrel heats up quicker, and on cold days the slightest amount of heat from the barrel roils the air more.


Though it tends to be easier to find a heat sink in the winter.

[Linked Image]
grin

Trouble is around here any more there isn't enough to hold the rifle upright.
KW- Lol - so true.

JB and others, good info.

In an IDEAL world, it seems if one has a #1 contour side by side a #5 contour, same length, all specs, load, rifle/bedding, etc. and put them both in a vice, then both rifles would theoretically shoot a say 10-shot group in more/less the same size?

As to 10shot strings, perhaps if I had a 221-223 of modest capacity not a big deal, but many rifles will get VERY hot after 10 rounds, to me accelerating throat/bbl wear, i.e. a 220 Swift.

So accuracy aside, accelerated bore wear is enough for me to shoot 3 shots vs 5, or 5 vs 10.

Originally Posted by Mark R Dobrenski
My mind has to ask the question, and that's if the light barrels shoot as well as the heavy barrels then why have Snipers long toted rigs with heavy tubes on them...?

Thoughts anyone why these guys would carry the weight when they don't need it?

Thx
Dober




A little of it is thinking inertia: it is widely believed that long range rifles need heavy barrels, especially within the military. Another is because the role and missions of snipers has changed significantly since the M40A1 was adopted. In the 60's and 70's snipers were closer to acting like backpack hunters. Portability, weight, "shootability" from field positions with one or two precision shots was more important then. In short, a more accurate "hunting" rifle was appropriate. The M40A1 is a heavy hunting rig.


Contrast that with the M40A5 and today's role (esp. Iraq), with multiple targets with rapid engagements, generally shots from static positions, the need for mag fed guns, suppressers, night vision, etc. All of those reasons and more are why gas guns have become so prevalent. What we're seeing is a meshing of bolt actions and semi autos and that leads to a very heavy rifle. I believe we have reached the end of the 308 bolt gun in military service. For 600m and in a semi auto in 223 or 308 is perfect. Past that you need a 300WM or 338L. Those guns are going to be heavy and long.



As far as accuracy goes anyone that believes that a #1 contour will place every single round fired into the same size group as a 1.25in full length is smoking crack. Are they capable of producing hunting accuracy? Of course they are. However if all those people with "sub MOA all day long" (when they do their part, of course) 6 pound rifles actually shot a statistically relevant amount of rounds and didn't make excuses for "fliers" they'd find out that their benchrest sheep rifles, aren't. Of course there are some really, really good shooting light weights, but they are not nearly what people on the Internet and in gun shops claim. I see several hundred hunting and LR comp rifles a year actually shot in training and competition and have never seen a 6lb 1/2MOA big game system despite a whole bunch of custom rifles and owners who swore that their rifle was a 1/2 MOA gun. Now I'm sure that there will be posters all in a tissy over this and will post a target or two showing a .5 inch group somewhere on the paper as proof that their Kimber Montana is a match quality rifle. Of course where I come from to be a true 1/2 inch at 100 yards gun, then it has to be able to hit a 1/2 inch dot on demand with no excuses at that range.

Even a lot of "sniper" competition guns aren't true .5 MOA rifles.

This one of my comp rifles. A built 243Win.

[Linked Image]

It is a true sub MOA gun but not quite a half minute one.
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]





This one of my partners rifles. An APA built 7WSM. It is also the lightest dedicated rifle we have seen at a LR match. It's about 11lbs empty sans bipod. While it is a very accurate gun and has produced many sub half MOA groups, it also is not a 1/2 inch rifle.

[Linked Image]



Of course .5 MOA rifles aren't required for hunting, sniping, or LR tactical matches. A true 1.5MOA rifle will easily keep all it's rounds on a 12 inch plate at 600 yards, which is about the practical limit of general hunting rifles and a solid 1MOA gun can win every sniper match in the country.....




fwiw.... ULA/NULA rifles have been the most consistent light rifles I have seen.
Formidilosus, what type of scope is that on those two rifles? looks like the same thing
What kind of scope is that on the APA ?
Very Very good read here !!!
Originally Posted by n8dawg6
Formidilosus, what type of scope is that on those two rifles? looks like the same thing


I know what they are....because I have a couple of them. Bushnell HDMR. GReat scope for the money.
Scenar answered already, however they are Bushnell HDMRs with the H59 reticle. It's pretty much all we use on our LR rigs anymore. Diffidently not your normal Bushnell.

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]



Formidilosus,

I don't think anybody on this thread had suggested light contour barrels shoot as well as heavy barrels. Instead the suggestion is that the phenomenon of groups "opening up" as light barrels warm is more due to the odds of shooting 3-shot rather than 5-shot groups, rather than the barrel diameter.

I notice you'te shooting at least 5-shot groups to prove a rifle/scope/load accuracy, rather than 3-shot.

Agreed on all. I guess I was responding to several comments from different posters.



I shoot multiple 3 or 5 shot groups at the same target at the very least. Hunting rifles usually get 3x five round groups on the same target and competition and LR rifles are 10 round groups. In that vain we averaged up about ten "3 shot" groups with my tan 243 out of curiosity and it averaged just over .25 MOA..... It's still not a 1/2MOA rifle.
I am not sure I buy the light rifles shoot as well as the heavy ones. For hunting rifles probably...but you sure as hell dont see any #1 contour barrels on and competition rifles....and it is not just about recoil. As barrels heat up they do loose some accuracy even heavy ones, just not as much. The heavy barrel are consistant in holding zero and repeatable accuracy not once or twice but time after time. The military is not carrying around heavy sniper rifles because they dont know better...they need consistant repeatable accuracy and that what those heavy barrels give them.

LC
Gotcha.

I mentioned shooting 10-shot groups in one of my earlier posts.
I do that a LOT to prove the accuracy of my own rifles, loads and scopes, but the average magazine reader shoots 3-shot groups and can't comprehend what a 10-shot group means, or even a 5-shot group with big game rifles.
Originally Posted by Formidilosus
fwiw.... ULA/NULA rifles have been the most consistent light rifles I have seen.


At $2,500-3,000 per rifle, they'd damned well better be.
I've shot a bunch of other rifles costing the same amount that didn't shoot as well, or consistently--and the new Forbes Rifles shoot just as well, at less than half the price.

If you weant to argue about custom rifle accurscy, I'm willing to provide lots of data.
How is the durability and tracking on those Elite Tactical scopes you guys are running say compared to Nightforce ?
Originally Posted by Mule Deer

One factor that can affect group size in cooler weather, especially on calmer days, is warm air from a heated barrel roiling the view through the scope.

[Linked Image]

John,
Hot or cold temps.
If the barrel gets hot enough.
No matter the contour...
It can mess up your view.
I get this black paper backed foam board at office max and cut it to fit.
Velcro does the holding.

If you get it to close to the brake.
[Linked Image]
Bad things happen.
But in general, a barrel shade will block the heat wave off the barrel.In most hunting situations, I cant see why a person would be shooting enough to need one.
For 1000 yard BR it kinda comes in handie...


For my 17lb "light" rifle I like a muzzle diameter over an inch.
You have to get creative sometimes to make weight.
But in general you take the rifle to as heavy as you can.
[Linked Image]
This right here is what a Gomer Pyle heavy assed barrel does for you.
Two shots at 600 yards from a cold clean barrel.
The fact thats its not in the middle of the gong is my problem.
Gomer Pyle heavy assed barrels also tune up quicker.
Alot quicker.

That being said I just picked up a Brux No5 for a 6.5x47 build.Thats going to be a 12lb 1000 yard light class rifle.
This should be an interesting project.



dave




I will admit that I am somewhat confused at this point. based on all that has been said here, what is the advantage, if any, of a heavy barrel?
Originally Posted by n8dawg6
I will admit that I am somewhat confused at this point. based on all that has been said here, what is the advantage, if any, of a heavy barrel?


in a target rifle? makes the gun heavier which helps with recoil which matters whan your shooting alot over a short period of time....helps it settle into what ever your rest is(bipod, bags, ect) so that minor twitches on your part dont move the crosshairs much.....if i was building a target rifle heavy is good...

a hunting rifle, for me atleast, is different....everything is a trade off in keeping recoil tolerable, having a rifle that balances well offhand, and isnt unnecessarily heavy cause my knees are shot and i do feel extra weight, you wouldnt believe how concerned i am about how much my footware weights cause over a certain point equals pain....

but i dont do long range shooting in my big game hunting....havent killed a deer farther than 300 yards away because of how i prefer to hunt and to me i would much rather have something like a Kimber Montana or NULA because of how i hunt.....some of the guys that like long gange hunting prolly wouldnt like my choices and i understand why....my Kimber isnt what i would choose for 500 plus yard shots cause its light weight magnifies every lil tremor on my part....
The most deliberate shot is the first. Thereafter things get more difficult with each additional shot. Worthless to worry about accuracy change with multiple additional shots. These are not varmint rifles gentlemen.
I don't think there is much doubt that,all things being equal, a heavy barrel will group with repeat shots more "accurately" than a light tube....but a few sessions of schlepping a heavy rifle in rough country, or where game can appear at any time and the rifle will be (should be) in your hands most of the day,gets real old, real quick.Cruising bedding areas for mule deer in rough country comes to mind and for that work,a heavy barrel just sucks IMO.... smile

I like to mix up the criteria for a rifle,and watch very carefully where it puts the first one, from a cold barrel,every time,and do this over the course of a year,and at distances from 300-600 yards,and from different rests and conditions....oh I shoot for groups, too,and like Mule Deer will once in a great while just sit and shoot 8-10 shots because this will really show flaws in the rifle if any exist...cant prove it with math,but know that flaws in the rifle will show up with 5-10 shot groups that may not be apparent with 3 shot groups.But I sure don't do this every session an once a rifle shows it groups well,I rarely, if ever just it down and shot a bunch of groups from the bench.

But once that stuff is out of the way,I revert back to cold barrel POI consistency,and what the rifle and I do with it in my hands...by then I "know" the rifle,and it reaches "boring" status..and by the time it gets boring,it's ready to hunt.

This is as easy to accomplish with a light tube as a heavy one for hunting purposes,and I consider it more important than pure grouping ability because it is very rarely that I get to kill an animal with a "group",which is the way I like things to turn out....like Rick points out,if you botch the firt one,things generally are on a downward spiral from there on out,and redemption is hard to achieve.
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
I've shot a bunch of other rifles costing the same amount that didn't shoot as well, or consistently--and the new Forbes Rifles shoot just as well, at less than half the price.

If you weant to argue about custom rifle accurscy, I'm willing to provide lots of data.


JB, I never argued that they didn't shoot...are you replying to my post?

My point was that for $3k, I'd expect them to shoot lights out. If they didn't, then what exactly would you be getting that you couldn't get now in a $1,200 rifle? Years ago, he had the market cornered on light rifles, but not anymore.

You're one of the relatively few who has actually shot a Forbes, so I'll take your word for it. But we won't really know about the brand until a statistically significant number of them are out there...over time. If the folks producing them can hold manufacturing and QC to something approaching Mel's standards over the long haul, then they'll likely be cranking out a fine rifle for the money. History has shown that this often isn't the case, particularly when the brand's patriarch leaves the operation.

I have great...GREAT respect for Melvin Forbes and what he's done with ULA/NULA. Had I bought one of his rifles years ago, I might not have a safe full that aren't quite right.
I just hunt. I'm not into competition, BR, etc so I'm going to ask a really ignorant question. Why should I care about 5 shot groups, especially when the first goes exactly where it's supposed to,and the second, and third one goes into consistently small groups?
Originally Posted by JGRaider
I just hunt. I'm not into competition, BR, etc so I'm going to ask a really ignorant question. Why should I care about 5 shot groups, especially when the first goes exactly where it's supposed to,and the second, and third one goes into consistently small groups?


Statistical Confirmation - but I also like the notion of 5 1 Shot groups from a cold-bore, with the targets superimposed.


In the cold a little weight helps stabilize your hold, if you happen to be shivering.
Cliff,

With thin barrels I prefer colder temps. My light 30-06AI's barrel is .552" at it's 26" long muzzle. With a 4x scope the rifle weighs 6 lb 8 oz. When working up loads, I like to keep the barrel cold. I love working up loads in our sub 30 F temps here in Utah winters.

Alan
Originally Posted by JGRaider
I just hunt. I'm not into competition, BR, etc so I'm going to ask a really ignorant question. Why should I care about 5 shot groups, especially when the first goes exactly where it's supposed to,and the second, and third one goes into consistently small groups?



I do it because it is an easy way to get enough shots to really have a good idea where any one will land. If we just shoot three shot groups and measure the size between the two farthest shots each time we really don't know what size target the gun is actually able to hit. That is because guns actually fire rounds into a cone. Three and five shot groups no matter how small, can be anywhere within that cone.

In other words, lets we have a gun that will put every round fired for the life of the barrel, say 2K rounds into a 1.5MOA "cone". We fire a 3 round group that is 1/2MOA. We fire another that is 3/4MOA. Then we have a flyer and a group just over 1 MOA. One more at .3MOA. Now most would say that they have a .5 MOA gun, if they do their part as that one group must have been them. The problem is that they don't realize that because they didn't shoot all the shots on one target, the first group was actually located in the upper left corner of the "cone", the second in the lower portion, the third sort of centered, and the last in the right. Even though each group was MOA or better, when overlaid on one target we get an aggregate of 1.5 MOA which is what the gun will mechanically be expected to do.


It's harder to write than to show. Below is a test I did showing just that.

The first 3 round group.
[Linked Image]



I somehow didn't get a picture of the second but it was 5/8ths of an inch.


This is the third.

[Linked Image]




The fourth with what seems to be a flyer....
[Linked Image]



The fifth.
[Linked Image]





Now it doesn't seem to be a tack driver but most would guess about a 1MOA or just over except for the one flyer. Well when we fire a 10 shot group we see that maybe that one at 3 o'clock wasn't a flyer after all.

[Linked Image]


When we look at the backer that was behind the 5x three round groups and the ten round group it's obvious that neither the far right shot or the two low shots in the 3 round targets are flyers.
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I know from shooting a 50 round composite group that the group size was within a 1/4 inch of the 10 round group. Now I have around 3,500 rounds through that gun and most of the time 3 round groups are under an inch with that lot of ammo. However if I hang a 1 MOA target I can't guarantee that it will hit it on demand. Hang a 2 MOA target and it will hit it with every round fired. That is because it is really a 1.75MOA gun/ammo combo.



Formidilosus,

Actually, you explained it very well, but the photos help a lot.

One of the reasons so many half-inch rifles exist on the Internet because their owners never shoot more than 3 shots in a group---becuase they "know" sporter-weight barrels won't shoot when hot.

Even when doing preliminary load work-up I shoot at least four shots these days, as 3-shot groups are just too dependent on chance. When further along I shoot 5-shot to 10-shot groups.

The only trouble there (as I mentioned earlier) it that I can rarely write up those groups in my articles, because so many shooters these days have no real concept of accuracy, since their only frame of reference is 3-shot grouops. Hence they're not impressed with a 10-shot, 1" group--which is outstanding accuracy from a hunting rifle.


A sporter weight big game rifle that produces 1in, 10 round groups is outstanding.


People tend not to be so impressed with their half inch rifles when they shoot a 10 round group.... grin....
Thanks for the photo explanation!

I was planning on running an "experiement" with my .260 Montana and take a "backer" target as well as a fresh one each week. One cold-bore shot every week at the 200 yard mark and compare the results at the end of spring.

I think I'm going to up the ante a little and run a pair of targets. The single and then a five shot string on the next.

George
Formidilosus, great post.
NH K9, that would be a great test and will tell you A LOT about the gun. After I have the load worked up for a gun I used to do something very similar to track cold bore POI. However since shooting 3 x 5 round groups on the same target and/or 10 round groups I have found that I get no surprises. What it will do is show POI shifts due to bedding/mounts/scope/etc. That happens more than people think.
Your post is spot on with my experience. I tend to shot more than three shot groups just to see how long I can keep it going or try to get back on track. Have a few accurate hunting rifles, put together right with good components. Some times they will start stacking them up, but I've never got past 7 or 8 and the group stayed 0.5. Then the next go the whole group will have moved a little. Still a decent group, but it will have moved exactly as you have demonstrated or not be as small.

Shoot enough and you can start calling some flyers, but what do you do when you call a flyer and it is nestled in there with the rest of them? Everyone I know goes on and forgets about it. wink

Long ago I came to a positive conclusion that day in day out .5in hunting weight rifles-and us average Jo shooters-are for the most part an urban myth. Thanks for the post.

In addition, how many of us can consistently roll-or take the effort to put together-0.5in ammo day in day out. Myth and urban legend for the most part....
Formidilosus, excellent post. When I hear "1/2 rifle", my first thought is they dont shoot enough targets to know better.
Okay try this test. Load 20 shells and shoot two shots into the target. Repeat whenever you go to the range using that same target. Let at least two weeks pass between sessions. By the time that box of shells is finished you should be very happy if all the shots are in a 1 1/2 inch group.

My 6.5 pound NULA in 270 Win will beat that.
Another variation: A custom riflesmith I used to know would shoot an entire 20-round box of Federal's cheapest factory load from each of his finished rifles. If the 20-round group was under 2" he shipped the rifle to the customer. If not, he fiddled with the rifle until it did, but most shot the 2" grouop right away. His customers raved about the accuracy of his rifles.
I'm easy to please, I want the first shot to hit what I aim at.
What I have been sorely temtped to do is offer to pay someone that was willing to do the following with a hunting weight rifle and a non parallax adjustable scope-

1.Shoot 3 shots from a hunting position at a target say 300 or 400 yards away, in the hills-Shooting from sloping ground to a target placed on sloping ground across sloping ground.

2. move to another location, same range and conditions and shoot another three rounds from a hunting position.

3. Move back to first postion, repeat.

4. Move to altenate position, then repeat.

Wind meters not allowed.

I would really be interested in seeing the group size. I have never done this myself because having someone of my less than mediocre skills would be meaningless. I do have a pretty good idea of what my group size would be.
I have so little proficiency with a rifle that things like parallax, rifle cant, reducing wind drift through the use of a high BC bullet, rifle grip, velocity variations, bullet alignment are all factors in my shooting, and I know from reading here on the internet that a really good rifle shot has nothing but disdain for such trivia.
However, I think the test I have outlined above would be a pretty good indicator of a shooters ability to kill game at longer ranges.

Royce


Royce, hope alls well in your camp. I gotta ask though why the need for the non ao scope?

Thx
Dober

Side note the test sounds like a lot of fun. Back in the day I shot chucks and rocks a lot at long ranges and I always found it to be an interesting drill.
Mark
Things are kind hard going in the Royce camp. I have a girl friend that wants to spend all our time either hiking or looking for elk, so most of my time is spent doing one or the other or recovering from it. As you know, the wolves have decimated the elk herds, and yesterday in 4 hours of hard elk looking all we could find was 3026 elk, about 75 bighorn sheep and maybe 500 antelope.

Went in a different direction a few days before that and it was worse, saw maybe 300 tops. That was down around Mule Deer's baliwick, figure he must be keeping them shot off. Even our best day a week or so ago, we only could find was about 5000. Trying to find a new hobby, but the senior center has barred me, I think it was that deal about me butchering the deer in the activity room. What the hell is the good of an activity room if you can't do your butchering in there?

Back to the non- AO scope-
I think parallax is a lot bigger demon in trying to hit something in the field than most people realize. And, in trying to get to the point where I could hit a hay stack past 300 yards, I discovered, in my world that sucess in hitting things past 300 yards is a matter of doing a lot of little things correctly, and that doing one thing wrong could poleaxe the whole [bleep].
For example, even with wind flags, you never get the wind quite right, so a better BC gives you maybe a 1/16 MOA there. Having consistent velocity give you another 1/8 , and consistent rifle grip a 1/32-. In my experience, reaming flash holes reduced fliers. Using a powder that has less temp variations helps a little. Rifle cant can cause deviations.
A rifle that shoots 3/4 inch groups but prints those groups 44 inches high one day, three inches left the next and slings them low another day is worse than a rifle that will shoot 1 1/2 inch groups to the same place all year long.
Of course, all this is just my own opinions and observations, and I will yield any claim of expertise or even compentency. smile

Fred
Glad to hear things are well, can't imagine them no allowing the meat cutting there...grin

For the parallax scope do you not feel that an AO scope would help?

Thx
Dober


(fished Hyalite two nights ago, from dark to 9 and had a great but somewhat chilly night...grin. Moon coming over the peak was awesome!)
Here's the deal on the parallax issue- I have had several people dismiss parallax as a factor in longer range shooting, and I could never see why. To me, it's just another way to tweak accuracy at little expense, no extra weight or technology.
I have taken to sending my Leupold scopes back to the factory to be parallax adjusted at 400 yards, and they come back with little parallax at any normal range. I have been dissappointed in how much parallax they have straight from the factory.
So, in short, it was more of a question to see if I was wrong about the importance of parallax and if someone could demonstrate that fact.

Fred
Had an M8 8x36 non ao once, OEM was 300 yds IIRC, normal scopes it's half.

Shooting SMALL tight groups at closer ranges was not it's forte, b/c you could see a little parallax. Royce what scopes are you referring to in the Leupy? Power?

As to how many shots I fire for groups on paper, always found that a rifle that is accurate will fire consistently accurate 3 shot groups that tells me what I want, as Scott says, the first shot is what matters most.

NEVER shot a 3 shot much less 5 shot 'group' on an animal wink

That said, I can fire say 5 3-shot groups allowing cooling, vs. three 5-shot groups during the same time. I like that...also I consider the higher heat of 5 shots in a sporter vs 3 and how that affects throat wear. I don't want to wear more than necessary.

Alan, no doubt, I often pick days that are not only Calm, but Cold/cool as well, feeling it reduces time for bbl cooling, and the bbl does not get as hot as easily in 40 degrees vs say 95.

Very good read indeed on many aspects of accuracy, precision, and testing ideology/methodology. Thanks all.
Fred's right and I have no trouble seeing parallax in my VX2 scopes and my 6X's as well....this seems to be most apparent at the 300 yard line,but seems to be gone at 400-600 for some reason.

Trouble is if I hang a deer target at 300 yards and shoot at that monolithic chest area, I can't detect it.It's most apparent when I hang an orange dot against a black background...at 300 yards the "follow the bouncing ball" effect kicks in.

It's there with some VX3's but I don't see it as much.
Bob,
Do you notice the orange bouncing ball being more prevalent on a bright sunny day? On those days for me the orange dots get fuzzy and seem to move. On overcast days I don't notice it as much.
battue I can't say I have but it could be me not paying attention...(?) I will watch for that.I should note I have seen it with white on black as well...do you think sunlight somehow affects this?

I also see it sometimes at 100 yards with some scopes...I dont know why but it is very apparent to me at the 300 yard line with some scopes...I have even sold a couple of VX II's becasue it was so disturbing.

I can say that the very sharp contrast in colors makes it very visible to me....and yet yesterday I shot with my Summit...there was no movement at all....every rifle it has been on so far has shot very well and I have wondered if that was a coincidence....I can see parallax in it at the lowest power, but not from 6-10X,where it tends to "live".

Orange Balls? Sounds painful? Lol.

Must be a mirage effect.

Bobin, how does a Bushy Elite compare? No doubt you get some ROI on an Alpha optic wink Glad that Summit is working for you.
For me the bright orange dots loose their distinct edge on bright sunny days and seem to change shape slightly. Noticed when a cloud moves over the sun for a spell it will not be as bad, but will return once the sun is out again. My thoughts are the orange dot becomes a more reflective surface in bright sunlight.

65 it doesn't really bounce....sorta "rolls" around as I move my ol noggin around a little....gotta really center up in the view finder if you get my drift.. smile
smile Man you got problems, drift too eh? Live in a windy climate?

Happy New Year's to you and yours sir!
65BR
The reason I shoot ( or used to shoot, I don't hunt as avidly now) multiple shot groups is because in my experience there have been problems that don't show up in one or two shots at 100 yards. One example is a 270 and a 7 magnum that i had at the same time. Both would shoot excellent groups at 100 yards, but at 300 yards the 270 would shoot 6 to 8 inch groups and the 7 magnum would shoot 3 inch groups. And I took advantage of the accuracy of that 7 magnum at least a couple of times that I can remember.
Another example of the reason for multiple groups is a 25/06 residing in the gun safe behind me. For years it shot very well and took a lot of deer. And now, at the range, it will shoot the first 2 or 3 shots and sometimes the first 10 into good groups. But, it will spray about 30 % of it's rounds over a 6 or 8 inch pattern at 100 yards. Don't know yet what that problem is, but have determined it's not the scope. Those are the kind of problems I want to find at the range and not when I am trying to kill a buck that is 400 yards away and looking to change zip codes right away.

Fred
Fred that 25/06 barrel may be on its last legs...my last 270 barrel behaved like you describe and for about a year I was in denial.Smith and a bore scope confirmed my suspiscions.

New barrel cured it.
Originally Posted by Steelhead
I'm easy to please, I want the first shot to hit what I aim at.


Amen to that.
I am a deer hunter and although nice groups are ok by me IF I haven,t killed the deer I am shooting at in one to three shots I may need some built in group dispersion !
MUCH more important to me to be able to have a non finicky rifle that I can pick up any day and put one or two shots right where I want them.
Craig
First shot accuracy is important and second followup may be even more so, depending on circumstance.

However, sooner or later those who hunt a lot will be involved in a rodeo and a rifle that GTH after two shots is one I would rather not be carrying. Mainly because there is something wrong with it. And the rodeo may require good accuracy with a hot barrel, often combined with increasing distance or not so perfect presentation.

Then again, sometimes it is not the rifles fault at all....
Re; # of shots in groups, I do most load confirmation testing at 200 yds, not 100. Alot of bullets settle in differently over distance as you alluded.

Battue, agree. When chips are down, top accuracy/precision never hurts.
Originally Posted by battue
First shot accuracy is important and second followup may be even more so, depending on circumstance.

However, sooner or later those who hunt a lot will be involved in a rodeo and a rifle that GTH after two shots is one I would rather not be carrying. Mainly because there is something wrong with it. And the rodeo may require good accuracy with a hot barrel, often combined with increasing distance or not so perfect presentation.

Then again, sometimes it is not the rifles fault at all....


Well, much ain't about groups. Point being, the [bleep] should hit what I'm aiming at. I really don't give a flying [bleep] about micrometers and group size. I've seen many a man that can cover his group with a penny not be able to hit a beer bottle at 400 yards.
Knew where you were coming from and unfortunately I've missed things bigger than a beer bottle at 400. Big Groundhogs for one.



....and more than once.

Addition: Really don't have much desire to shoot BG at that distance, but it would be fun/interesting to have someone to give me a cliff notes version on how to be better at it than I am. The rifles for the most part are up to it. I would be the weak link when it comes to consistency.
I'm with you, although I've shot to 1100 yards, I have zero desire to draw blood at that distance. I much prefer the doe I shot 2 weeks ago at 8 yards.

I have nothing against the long range shooters of game, just not my cup of tea.

And I forgot the most important part of all of this, Happy New Year my friend.
Thank you,

....and the same to you and yours. Wishing you and the wife (Karen?) nothing but the best in all ways.
Originally Posted by RDFinn
How is the durability and tracking on those Elite Tactical scopes you guys are running say compared to Nightforce ?



Nightforce is the gold standard as far as I am concerned, however we have 5 or 6 of the HDMRs and they have been fantastic. In addition they are probably the most personally bought optic for a certain group of SpecOps snipers. 3.5-21x50mm, locking turrets, FFP, MIL/MIL, good glass, and the tracking and reliability is spot on.
Originally Posted by battue
Thank you,

....and the same to you and yours. Wishing you and the wife (Karen?) nothing but the best in all ways.


Karen is Bob's wife, Jennifer is mine.
Obviously I misread a prior post.

Please wish Jennifer a Happy New Year and the same to Karen and Bob also.
back to the OP -

I avoid super light rifles due to how they act / impacted by things - plus kick too much
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