A short shot string is supposedly good because more of the pellets will hit the flying bird. But what if your lead is not precise enough? Wouldn't an elongated shot string be better in this case because you'd have a greater chance of hitting the bird with the front or rear of the shot string?

There are many shooters better qualified to answer this than I but I will make a stab at it. A shorter shot string does put more pellets on the target provided your lead is correct and the gun is centering it's pattern close to where you are looking.

A long shot string would only help if you are consistently shooting in front of the target. Most shooters are not. I've been shooting trap, skeet and sporting clays for 35 years as well as shooting birds. I would say the vast majority of birds or targets are missed because shooters either don't lead enough or stop their swing and shoot behind the target. In this case a long shot string isn't going to help and for that matter a short shot string isn't either. A short shot string will help when the lead is correct and the target is centered in the pattern. More pellets on target means higher scores and more cleanly killed birds. One of the best upland bird loads has always been the Winchester AA 7 1/2's trap loads. Usually very uniform patterns, short shot string and harder shot than found in most field loads.

I hope some real shotgun experts weigh in on this. These are just observations from a lot of years with a shotgun in the field and on the range. My sporting clays scores would certainly disqualify me from ever claiming "expert" status when it comes to shotguns.

Mart

Certainly no expert here, but I can repeat what I was taught on this board...

Short fat shot columns tend to pattern better.

I learned this when I patterned a 20 gauge while getting ready to take a grandson turkey hunting. I had assumed that anything you could do with a 12 gauge standard cartridge, you could do with a 20 gauge magnum cartridge. It isn't so. The 12 will tend to pattern better because the shot column is shorter and fatter. That's what I was told, and it seems to be true in practice.

IMO there is more malarky in this subject than confirmable truth.

It ranks well with moly coating and cryogenic freezing as subjects with no proof or substance behind them.

For those who have been around sporting clays shooters, you will notice many will use tighter chokes when practicing. That is because hits from the fringe, not the core, is almost a miss. When we fringe a clay target, it breaks. When fringing a live bird, the bird is crippled and may go to waste. A longer shot string has a considerable percentage of the pellets that will end up as fliers.

So, the short shot string is going to put an adequate number of pellets into a live bird. It does require the shooter be more precise in their shooting though, especially as the distance increases. Generally the tighter the choke, the shorter the shot string, as long as quality shot is used.

I would prefer a short string for live Birds and a longer string for clays.

Here's an example of some proof....

Let's say one has passing shots at ducks, a subject I am intimately familiar with.
Gun is swinging with a moving target. Trigger is pulled and payload is on the way to the target.
If the shot string is long, meaning a "column" if you will, from the barrel to the moving target, the first few pellets may hit the bird while most rearward pellets fly off behind it into never never land. Remember, the target is moving.
You have just lost part of your payload on target. This results in cripples. When shooting steel, this really sucks due to the low hitting energy steel has over a more dense shot such as lead.

A shorter shot string will get the payload of pellets on target roughly at the same time, exponentially increasing the energy delivered and more DRT birds.

Long shot strings are fine on stationary targets like a turkey or when shooting moving targets that are flying directly at or away from the shooter.

As the shot is moving 20+ times as fast as the target. A 20 ft
long shot string will hit the target while it is moving one foot.

At what distance?

Geezuz!

A long shot string happens because some of the pellets are slowing down faster than others. That happens for two reasons. One some of the pellets in the middle face less air resistance in the beginning. Two some of the pellets deform and present more surface area and begin to deflect out of the pattern earlier.

A short shot string will put more pellets onto a moving target than a long string. If you am poorly then it may not make a difference. If you aim poorly you can also be accidentally helped by a longer string.

All things about the pattern being equal (shot size, velocity and density or number of pellets in the pattern) a basketball shaped shot cloud will kill birds better and break targets better than a shot cloud that's 4-6 basket balls long but equivalent diameter.

It ain't that difficult.

Lots of good replies here but I'd have to say mart has the answer.

IME, shooting extremely long crossing targets, shot string is your friend. I tend to shoot in front of targets (even though my shooting buddies say I'm behind LOL). There are many times I'll take the front side off of a long crosser, and it's then that I know the end of the shot string saved me. I then can also adjust my lead for the next target.

For incommers or trap birds, I don't thing either a short or long string makes a bit of difference.

One thing though about the way shot strings are shaped that was discussed in another thread here. I've fired millions of shotgun shells and have looked over the shoulders of shooters seeing even millions of more. I can see shot and shot string. It's very important to be able to do so to be a good instructor and shooter.

The shot string is shaped like a "Horn 'O Plenty" or tornado shaped cone, large at the front and narrowing back toward the shooter.


*******

I use slugs for everything

Waiting for doubters to question seeing a shotstring cloud. Believe me, once one has looked over the shoulder of enough shooters shooting enough shells it will become commonplace. First time I saw it was a revelation.

At night under lights it is easy and you can often see what appears to be a bend in the cloud on crossers. During the day conditions have to be right-target in the sky-but most times you can spot the cloud.

Agree Rick: The more one shoots the more they tend to miss in front and a longer string will give you some chips along with a clue on your leads.

That's why I say it looks like the horn 'O plenty. It definitely has a bend in it if a guy is moving the gun in time with a crosser

The doubters will probably show up but seeing the shot is a fact. And you are right about seeing it best under the lights. I seem to see the shot fairly well on overcast days also.

Mart

So your saying you can move a shotgun fast enough to "spray" pellets that are coming out of a barrel at 1100fps or so with shot column about maybe an inch long?

Thinking you don't significantly spray the shot and it has to do with different pellets traveling at different speeds and also some being more effected by wind and air resistance depending on their speed and the trailing shot not being protected by being in the more populated portion of the cloud.

Shot that has their shape changed by being rubbed against the barrel-occurs even with a shot cup-will slow down faster than those that remain perfectly round and will veer off from the main cloud.

Much the same as water out of hose that is being moved horizontal. It just happens quicker.


Addition: I have thought for sometime now, top clay shooters can subconsciously visualize what a shot stream looks like and use it to their advantage. They often let the smaller target run into and hit a long-bigger-shot stream vs trying to hit a small target with the stream. Have noticed you can apparently overlead a quartering bird significantly and still crush it due to it eventually running into a long shot string. Hoping Rick comments on this, if how I wrote it makes sense.

I was going to say NO to this, but the more I think about it, it has to be the case.

I have never seen a shot string fired with a stationary shotgun that has a "bend" in its tornado or "conical" shape, therefore, I would have to come to the conclusion that the movement of the barrel has to play some part in why I always see a bend in the shot string when crossers are shot. If anyone has a better explanation, I'm all ears.

I would also think that Battue's reasoning that some of the pellets are slowing at different rates because of deformation has merit. The hose/water analogy is good.

Quartering birds have always been tough for me. Most every presentation the birds are quartering to some degree. Very seldom do you have a 90 degree crosser or a bird directly incoming or outgoing. I believe you have to visualize everything, including what the shot is doing, to break birds. Quartering birds are the easiest to shoot in front of. They require a delicate and precise approach.

But you definitely can over-think things. Most of the time to shoot your best, you need to just shoot and let it happen

That's very likely what's happening.

Stringing of the shot cloud happens partly because different pellets have slightly different ballistic coefficients, mostly to irregular pellets. All the pellets leave the muzzle at very close to the same time, but with a swining shotgun they probably have some sideways impetus as well. The higher-BC pellets in the lead would be less affected by the sideways swing than the slower pellets in the rear, resulting in the elliptical shape of the string.

This would probably be exaggerated when swinging into any wind, because the slower pellets would be blown more off course, just as slower rifle bullets with lower BC's are more affected by wind.

Agree with both of you, however next we will have someone try to have it happen by shooting into a pond of water and say they can't tell the difference from holding the shotgun stationary. How do I know? Weeeel I and others have done so. Problem is there is no way to accurately measure it and it takes more than a little distance to have it happen. Up in the sky and under lights-especially on a skeet field-is when you can absolutely see it happen for whatever reason.

[/quote]
Quartering birds have always been tough for me. Most every presentation the birds are quartering to some degree. Very seldom do you have a 90 degree crosser or a bird directly incoming or outgoing. I believe you have to visualize everything, including what the shot is doing, to break birds. Quartering birds are the easiest to shoot in front of. They require a delicate and precise approach.

But you definitely can over-think things. Most of the time to shoot your best, you need to just shoot and let it happen

[/quote]

The slightly quartering bird has always been my bane in trap shooting. Especially those birds just ever so slightly off straight away. When I miss them I invariably shoot behind them.

You are right on over thinking. We can over think ourselves right into a string of missed birds. Stick to the basics, good gun mount, good solid cheek to wood, keep the head on the stock, and follow through. The shot string, long or short will do it's job if we do ours.

Mart

Look for Bob Brister's book, "Shotgunning, The Art and Science"

I think it was Gil Ash, with help from an outside source, that calculated you would have to swing a shotgun at well over 200mph to exert any sideways force on a shot column. Bat speed for a major league player is somewhere around 80mph.

I know Gil and with common sense would have to agree. How on earth can moving the gun so slowly affect a shot column that leaves the barrel in .00432 seconds (I think)?

Still, when shooting R to L crossers as an example, I have seen the shot column "bend" from R to L. The front part of the column as the widest and out to the right, the rear end of the column the narrowest and further left.

Like I said, I can't explain it any other way and if someone has an explanation that's better, I'd like to hear it.

Colo Wolf,

Brister's book explains many things, but not the bending of a shot string in the air.

I knew Bob very well, and he would have loved to be able to measure that. He was very sure it happened, especially in any sort of wind, but couldn't prove it when shooting long pieces of paper.

These days the major ammo companies have shot tunnels that can electronrically plot the position of every piece of shot as the pattern goes down the tunnel. But none of those patterns are made with a swinging gun--or wind.

I think it's our eyes playing tricks on us. I for sure can't explain it. I see it the same way you do when I'm behind the shotgun. When I'm standing next to or behind somebody else, it looks like a straight column...

A big NOPE is what I say

I know what I see. Over and over and over.....

I know Gil too, and also know there are some things mathematics don't explain. And despite Gil's research, science doesn't explain everything about a moving shotgun and a shot string.

As in Brister's book title, there's both an art and a science to shotgunning.

mmmm The book I am thinking about has photos of experiments dealing with shot strings, if it wasn't Brister, I am a bit stumped. Have a copy, buried in storage or I would have the info.

What was done was shots at paper pulled on a frame behind the family car, driven by his wife. (amazing what they would do before they learned GFY)Seeing the string playing out at a slow speed, gives one an idea of what can happen moving a barrel.

Senility sucks.

Colo Wolf, that was Bristers Book. My wife would have a frickin' heart attack if I popped a shot off at a target pulled right behind her Avalanche. I'm surprised Bobs wife wasn't waving at the camera.

I've never noticed a bend in the shot column. Looks more like a swarm to me. I'll look for it this Sunday at the skeet range.

Well part of the problem solved, didn't read the whole thread. Bending shot strings...mmm new concept.

You won't see a bending shot string, or at least I haven't, on crossing shots as close as on a skeet field. I've only seen it when 50 yard or longer crossers are being attempted.

Probably because your looking at a larger field of view and a longer length of time. Also, your focus is at the target which is further out.

I think the bottom line is some guys have better eyes than others. Not to steer this off course more than it is, but I've seen .22 LR bullets come out of a rifle as well as watched bullets from high powered rifles on the way to a steel target.

I'm not talking about trace or distortion in the air, but actual copper colored shiny projectiles. Not with my naked eye but through Leicas when the sun is just right

The times I have seen it on a skeet field have been when we are shooting skeet targets from the trap 25 to 27 yard line and back onto the porch playing miss and out games. You are correct that up at regular skeet yardage I have not noticed it.

All respect due to Mule Deer, but firearms and bullets really
do obey the laws of Physics.

Here's a video of "glow in the dark" shot patterns taken at night. Not all that good but can't see any bending patterns. Forgive the commercial at start of video.

Second video slow motion skeet. Again not perfect but can see some shot string shapes. I tried stopping the video to catch the shot string right as it hit target. Could see the shape in a couple but no bending was evident. Not saying it isn't there, just can't see it.

http://video.fieldandstream.com/video/Incredible-Night-Skeet-Shooting

http://youtu.be/0NjLIc44H_U

It is an illusion. As a kid we used to throw snowballs at passing cars. If you looked at the snow ball it would go straight
and the car would drive into it. If you wayched the car the snowball would start out aiming in front then curve to hit the cat. (a miss spent youth).

Maybe an illusion, but I've seen it enough to think otherwise. I think JB nailed it with the BC post. Perhaps more of the deformed shot is going someplace other than the main cloud than we sometimes think.

Thought about the water/hose analogy that I posted and realized it doesn't apply due to the fact the hose is putting out a continuous stream over a long period of time while we move the hose. That doesn't happen when we send a ball of shot out to the target over a fraction of a second.

LOL!

After reading this article here I've pretty much stopped worrying about the affect of shot stringing.

Excellent article.

I especially would like to point out the statement made about "in the course of these tests, we learned that variations in pellet size and shape are only partial causes of stringing. The main cause, it seems, is the way the pellets individually leave the protection of the indespensed shot column during the first few yards of travel. This is somewhat analogous to the way a group of swimmers would be strung out in the water after jumping off of a fast moving boat.

You'll also not that the diagrams of the bird traveling 90 degrees to the shot string show a distinct bend in the shot string

Amazing, isn't it, that a well-respected professional ballistician reports something similar to what you've seen?

Found the video that I was thinking of when this got going.
I have never seen the string bend, but I don't get to shoot under the lights.
In high school physics we used a spinning plank with a center axle, that had a pair of seats on the ends. Throwing a ball to the other person on the opposite end gave the distinct impression that the ball tracked a path along a curve. An optical illusion. And a demonstration of lead required to hit a moving target.
I can not say that shot does not curve. But the times I have tried the water shot and looked for the curve I have not been able to see it.

Shot String on the Water

The shot on the water just may be the optical illusion.

So,
would it make a different picture on a long pattern paper if you drove it behind the car at 40mph, or stood and swung the gun as fast as you could thru a fixed sheet laid out over 30 feet or so?

I have only patterned at a fixed 4 foot square sheet but have the Brister book with the photo of the long car trailer pattern.

Would the same elipitical shape happen from swinging the gun fast on the pattern paper instead of the round that is seen on a fixed gun pattern shot?

Any one ever try it?

Now that would be an interesting experiment, especially at 40-60 yards.

First thought for me is that swinging the shotgun as fast as one can is not the key to the answer. When one is 40 to 60 yards back swinging on a long crosser, you are not moving the shotgun as fast as you can. If you do you will most certainly miss.

Instead you are trying to match the speed of the target, plus a little. In fact on long crossers you move the shotgun at a relatively slow pace, because at 50 yards a little movement back at the gun is a pile out at the target. Track a big jet a couple miles out with your finger. The jet is doing 300mph plus and your finger is moving slow.

Easily proven by holding your thumb and first finger a couple inches apart. Then compare the distance the gap covers at 10yards and at 50yards.

I agree, in most circumstances anyway, but it would still be an interesting experiment, due to the distance.

I have had to swing like hell to to lead ducks and geese with a 40-mph tailwind, even at 35 yards, and more so at 50. And the faster I swung, the more I hit. I would wager the shot string was bending somewhat in those conditions.

You come from behind and shoot swing through?

Swing-through was the only way I could hit anything in those circumstances.

Under more normal conditions I mount the gun while watching the target, and shoot when the muzzle(s) look right. Pretty much the standard modern form. But at those ranges, with the wind battering me and the shotgun, a hard swing-through was the only method that worked.

A 40MPH wind will definitely bend the shot string. The unprotected shot more so than those the main cluster. Should be no different than what it does to a bullet.

Exactly.

I brought this subject up at Nationals about 4 years ago while we were eating lunch under the pavilion. There were some guys shooting some long bird games on the skeet fields right down in front of us about 30 yards away. I happen to notice the phenomena of the bending, cone-shaped cloud and brought the subject up.

Realize that the group of folks I was eating with were not novices by any stretch of the imagination. All industry people and shooters who have seen probably just as many shot shells fired as I have but whose shooting ability varied from C class to Master to National Champion.

The opinions also varied as to what the shape of the shot string. One of my friends insisted the shot string was so short it was shaped like a Frisbee, or a disc. Basically like a paper patterning board pattern. Some believed it to be simply tubular. Most of the better shooters described it exactly as I have, having seen a tornado shaped cone that bends dependent on the direction of the target's flight/movement of the barrel.

It was quite interesting to ask folks I knew just milling around there who were all serious shooters and hear their answers.

Edited to stress that there is a correlation between better shooters having better vision. Even though the lower classed shooters had seen millions of fired shot shells as well, their perception of the shot string was quite different

Excellent ! Brister's book covers this subject well !

To cause the shot pattern to curve by swinging the muzzle
violates the laws of motion. An object in motion goes in a
straight line unless acted on by another force such as wind
gravity etc. As I mentioned earlier the "curve" is an
illusion caused by watching the target not the shot. In
fact the "curve" will be in a direction oposite the muzzle
movement.

Fun but useless topic IMO shot string is effected simply by a combination of air density, density altitude, wind and off course the actual pellets themselves. If I am correct then with every changing second, things change

After firing hundreds of thousands of rounds I pay no attention at all to shot string!

Most shooters never learn where to look to see the shot string.

Randy