Hornady shows data for their 75 and 80 grain A-Max bullets out of a CAR-15 1 in 9 twist (.223 service rifle data) but with no further explanation of whether it works well or not, so I have to assume 1-9 is sufficiently fast even with the lower velocity from the 20" barrel. Sierra's write up says a 1x10 minimum for their 69 gr. MatchKing, but a 1x8 for 77 or 80 grain MatchKings.

So, anybody know for sure where the limit is for 1 in 9? I know it is determined by length, not weight or BC or SD, but none of the manuals ever list the exact length of their bullets for comparison.

I've been on the fence a long time about getting a LH Ruger Hawkeye .223 with their 22" barrel and 1 in 9 twist. Now that they made a small run of them in SS I'm in serious danger of falling off that fence but was curious about where their limit is on bullets.




(P.S. Could have posted this in Hunting rifles or Varmint Rifles under reloading but hoping to get the straight scoop from you guys.)

69-70 cup and core, for sure. Anything longer or heavier, a definite maybe.

Google Miller Formula and do the calculations for your own rifle for the best by the book answer.

Read the Handloader Magazine series of articles for each of the popular twists from slower to faster, available on Load Data for the fee, to read of experience and suggestions for loading 1/9 as well as articles on 1/7 and 1/12 et. al. The article series mostly uses modern sporting rifles as the most convenient for otherwise similar rifles with barrels in the different twist rats.

Rumor says

Thanks for the recommendation. I have a subscription to Load Data but never noticed those articles, I'll go look them up.

Its price?

See also:

08/10/10 "Twist Rate for Long Bullets in the .223 Remington"By John Haviland
which addresses the specific question:


as well as:


Pricing information at the site LoadData.com. A very good source for information from Wolfe but some outside data has been pulled for royalty issues. Still useful for computer searches which specify some load combination such as loads with a specified powder on hand.

As others have reported there are combinations which do well on some days and not others which makes them marginal at best. Extra speed doesn't do much but still a load that's marginal in 24" will typically spin just a little faster from another 2" of barrel - hence the long barrels that help keep a .308 stabilized way out there without burning more powder in a bigger case. That's a different issue than stabilized for hunting ranges and in my experience a 1-14" Swift with a 26" barrel is a nice hold on hair a little farther than others in a shooting party but it's not even close to a faster twist despite the muzzle velocity.

The rifle is $582.95 at Davidson's plus shipping and whatever fee your FFL might charge.

http://www.davidsonsinc.com/consume...ffset_rec=0&num_rec=50&item_num=

Thanks for the serious and thoughtful reply. I was alluding to the current idiocy surrounding the price of anything .223. Best, John

Buy it and test it out.

I'm betting you'll be able to run 65 GK's, 70 Speers, and 70 VLD's without too much fuss. Those bullets should kill anything you should be pointing that rifle at.

80gr Amax ain't gonna do it and it's a crap shoot on the 75.

A 70gr TSX will not work either.

Folks seldom think about temps, but they factor greatly.

It's on the way. My dealer here called the distributor and is ordering it (hopefully) as this is written.

Never worked with a .223 twisted faster than 1 in 12 before, so this is purely in the interests of scientific curiosity, you understand.

You won't regret buying that one, no matter what it stabilizes.

I just bought one myself, Ruger stainless laminate .223 with a 24" barrel on it though. Can't wait to get out and try it.

I've played considerably with several .223's with 1-9 twists. Some 1-9 barrels will stabilize very long 75-grain bullets, and others will only go to 70 grains. It depends on the barrel.

I've also seen the same thing with slower-twist barrels, whether in .223 or a faster round such as the .22-250. Some .223 1-12 barrels will shoot 60-grain spitzers very well, and some 1-14 .22-250's will do the same.

But they're on the edge, where an individual rifle will shoot great with the same bullets with the same twist, and the next rifle won't. I've seen this in several rifles in .22-250 and .220 Swift. and the twist was actually measured in each barrel.

In my experience (NRA and CMP High Power matches) and that of my fellow target shooters, a 1-9 twist will definitely NOT stabilize 80 grain bullets and, as MD pointed out, 75 grain bullets are iffy. We prefer 1-7.7 twist for all bullets from 69 through 80 grains.

Some 9 twists will work with 75s, and some won't, crap shoot, like it was said above.

I still consider myself an active Service Rifle competitor. The convention is that 80's require an 8 twist and you have a better than even chance of stabilizing 77's out to 600 yds. That said, I have a 9 twist, 20" AR barrel that will shoot 80's out to 600 and I'm surprised Rost hasn't rung in about the Texas High Master that actually spec's 9-twist for his full course AR's.

If you can get 80's without committing to a box of 500, it's worth a try.

That said, I probably shoot a 6.5 twist upper more than anything else these days.

And an 80gr at 80 degrees is much different than one at say 10 degrees.

Or altitude.

I'm damn close to ordering one of these for my son. Going to be his first deer rifle, and am waffling between this or trying to find a lh action and putting on a fast twist 22-250 barrel.

It'd be neat if anybody had one in town I could actually put my hands on. I'm a lot more familiar with Remingtons than Rugers.

I believe that the 6.5 twist was thought up to stabilize 90 grain bullets because it is very difficult to make 80 grain bullets stay supersonic at 1000 yards, the longest range at which matches are typically shot. When a bullet transitions from supersonic to subsonic, there is some sort of wobble or disturbance which reduces accuracy.

Same here, Model 700's were my mainstay for years and years. I'll give you my impressions and experiences with a grand total of 2 Rugers so far - very soon to be 4. Basically, they match what everybody else has said about them.

Out of the box the triggers are crisp enough but heavy with some overtravel. Accuracy is decent but not spectacular, i.e. 1" 3 shot groups with straight ammo can be expected. They are heavy, my .308 all up is close to 8 pounds and the .25-06, which for some reason God and Ruger engineers alone know comes with a heavy magnum barrel, goes over 9 pounds with a scope. The .308 bolt travel was a bit rough but the .25-06 was fairly smooth from the start. Feeding is reliable but not butter smooth to start, my Winchesters all take first prize for really smooth feeding.

However, work the actions a few hundred or thousand times, glass bed them, free float the barrel and do a trigger job (lots of info on how to do that) and they become a lot smoother and extremely accurate. The .308 and the .25-06 have both turned in sub 1/2" five shot groups several times, and anything over 3/4" I know is my fault. The trigger can be taken down to 3 pounds easily - I'm sure someone has gotten one lighter - and very crisp, but still with some overtravel.

Still heavier than they really need to be but that's Ruger - built like a tank, good but not "great" triggers and way more accurate than you'd expect. Got a .243 coming in hopefully in the next week or so which I'd been waiting on for a couple of months now and this unexpected .223 version which I figured I better get while the gettin' was good. I turned my nose up at Ruger bolt action rifles for 30 years but in this last year these two have changed my thinking 180 degrees - I really like these rifles.

Buy the Ruger.

The 1:9 22" Kimber has no trouble with the 75 Amax, BUT, as mentioned above, I haven't tried it below 70 F, and it has an Ackley chamber so they're leaving the muzzle a hair under 3k.


Pete

Thanks Jim and prairie goat.

Thinking maybe if I get the Ruger I'll punch it to get a little more usefulness for him. If funds permit I'd probably drop it in a Micky to boot.

That would make for a really nice rifle. The AI will give your son something a little "cooler" and different than his buddies, and teach him about handloading.

Overall, I don't think you can really go wrong with a stainless Ruger 223.

Get him a Tikka.

Kids need to suffer in order to appreciate the good later in life.

Thank me very much.

He's a fixture at my bench already.

I figure no trimming, and a little more oomph would make it a little more versatile, which is why I was thinking 22-250.

I got a .223 #3 a year ago for his first centerfire. Going with a peep on that, and going to make the second centerfire a really all around rig. He won't be able to hunt this coming year so no huge rush, but familiarity with the weapon after a year of busting gophers and other targets of opportunity can't be a bad thing.

I would never curse him with a plastikka. First couple guns need to be shcit he'll have forever. After these he can buy whatever the hell he wants/affords.

You're spoiling him.

The Plastikka will be around forever because nobody will ever want to buy it from him, or even steal it. He probably wouldn't even be able to give it away.

Shootin' sumbiches though..

I buttstroke him with the #3 after we shoot it. Evens it out. I've contemplated stealing from him actually. Sweet little rifle.

Yeah, they've an enviable reputation.

I love my Plastikka.

the only thing not to love on that gun is the price on the magazines. But I guess they need to make their profit somewhere.

Yes, that is what my 6.5 twist was originally made for. Holliger drove much of the development of the 90's in the Service Rifles and paid for Pac-Nor to grind the 6.5 button. One of the early barrels went to me which I mounted a strain gauge on (since the 90's in a 223 were uncharted territory at the time). One went to Rost who kicked some ass at long range with the 90 JLK's. Ask him about how he outshot Tubb at 600 in one match with his Service AR.;) While most folks decided the JLK's and later Bergers and Sierra 90's were too finicky for the amount of returns given, many also found that the 6.5's shot the lighter bullets like 77's (and yes the 52's too) very accurately as well.

Jim,

I have a LH had Ruger Hawkeye in 223rem and 308win.

Your write up of your LH Ruger Hawkeye 308win matches mine. It's about 8lbs with scope. It balances great for me which makes it feel lighter than 8lbs, if that makes sense.

The weight and balance will be different with your 223rem. It's a little heavier than 308Win. Also my action was a little rougher than my 308win.

But as you said, after working the action a few hundred times it gets smoother. Have both of mine will be in McMillans stocks soon....currently waiting for my second one to arrive.

Haven't done a trigger job yet, but might have my gunsmith worked on.

What scope you think of putting on your 223rem?

Leo

Don't want to hijack the thread, but what about the other end of bullet weight?

Will the 1:9 overspin a 40 gr. balistic tip, or a 45 grain JHP?

What would you consider its optimum bullet weight range?

This .223 will get a Leupold VX-II 3-9X40. I've bought a passel of used ones (post M suffix so they have the Multicoat-4 lenses and 1/4 minute click adjustments) over the last few years and most of my rifles wear one. Got one with the LR reticle I haven't mounted yet so that's the one that'll go on this rifle.

How long is the magazine box on the .223's and how was the throating? I.e., were you able to hit the lands with your bullets and still fit in the mag box?

I went out today to look for heavier bullets but all I found on the shelf was some Barnes 69 gr. "Match Burners". Nothing else heavier than 55 grains except one box of Hornady 75 A-Max and a couple boxes of Sierras that state 7" or 8" twist only. I'll try the 69 grainers in this cold Idaho winter and maybe get that box of Hornady 75's. If they don't shoot in the cold I'll wait until the spring and try them again.

I'll let others with experience answer that, but everything I've read says the shorter bullets should do great in the 9" twist. I have about a thousand Hornady 50 grain V-Max's on the shelf and they'll definitely get their turn at bat. I'm sure they'll do fine.

Jim,

I hope you are correct. I have a lot of 223 (500 case lot) of Winchester White Box 45 gr. JHP that I purchased years ago.

I figured I needed a rifle to go with the ammo. So...I looked at the Ruger, but desided to go with a sps tactical because I knew that I would not be carrying the rifle.

The Ruger has two positives: 1) the barrel has a generous amount of "straight shank"--perfect if you punch it out to an AI. 2) The Ruger short action will handle a longer OAL (2.90) albiet the box would have to be modified.

Jim the m77 Mk 2 ss 223 I had might have been pre 1 in 9 but it was a good shooter and well balanced.I know the preponderence of the guys on the forum would rather have a trick syn stock but the one I chose was laminate must of been a small spec run Ruger made as I've never seen another. it was a boyds what they call Royal Jacaranda color.Not a light sporter with that heavy stock but a good shooter with superb balance for me. It fed and cycled well no problems. Good luck Magnum Man

Do yourself a favor, if you have to shoot any bullet heavier than 65 grains, get a 1-8 twist barrel.