This question is not just for Ken,but others with more experience than I.I finally got my dies,the scope mounted,trigger cleaned,fixed,and adjusted,bolt and bore cleaned.The rifle is a unfired ' 68 L61R Sako .338 Win Mag.Time to load some and head to the range.I have read all sorts of things for barrel break-in,shoot one,clean one,5 X,etc.I am a bit odd,I am more interested in the why ,than the how.Like what are you doing by this cleaning?

You're ironing the minute roughness of the bore surface smooth without ironing a lot of fouling into it.

Then the powder residue solvent mixture is a mild abrasive?

Nope.
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<br>You're getting the bore clean as a whistle so the bullet does the ironing. If you leave the fouling in, then the bore surface will not be exposed to the bullet ... the fouling will act to "protect" the bore surface from further polishing/burnishing/ironing. But if you keep shooting a bullet through a squeaky clean bore, the bullet will iron out the bore's imperfections to a degree. Once that happens, the bore will foul less, and many times shoot better.
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<br>That's a dumb guy's understanding of the concept. Hope I didn't make more of a fool of myself than already widely assumed.
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<br>Rick

Thank-you,makes sense.

Why do pistol shooters run two or four hundred rounds through a pistol barrel without cleaning to smooth out and polish the barrel before a thourgh cleaning? -- no

Because they operate at less than half the velocity levels. Incorporate minute powder charges. Further,most guys figure them to be largely inaccurate anyhow. A new pistol barrel is generally under $100.
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<br>A good custom barrel installation costs as much as many pistols. They can provide EXTREME accuracy and barrel care weighs heavily on accuracy potential and barrel life.
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<br>Nobody breaks in a slingshot either.(grin)............

I would like to add that I was instructed by Pac-Nor not to shoot a clean, unoiled bore. I do wipe the excesse out, but I always do shoot an oiled bore. E

Go to www.kriegerbarrels.com and look on the right side for a side-bar that says "barrel cleaning & break-in". Very informative...especially the part about the throat of the chamber.

No,
<br> For a better explanation of why some pistol shooters don't clean their barrels, go to Scheumann's website and read his take on barrel cleaning. In truth it has more to do with the nature of 416 Stainless Steel, heat generated from rapid fire, hardness of the steel, brushes, and the tendency of the metal to anneal. For what it's worth. Matt.
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Matt, what's the address.
<br>Thanks guys for the come back. -- no
<br>Stick, believe it, I have been breaking in my pea shooter, bean flip, Wrist Rocket, sling shot, N shooter, forever. Even have an aluminum frame with surgical tubing for power. Without marbles, (boy have you priced that ammo lately), mountain creek rocks are the best ammo around. -- no

Found this post on BBL breakin?
<br>GALE Mcmillan
<br>The break in fad was started by a fellow I helped get started in the barrel business . He started putting a set of break in instructions in ever barrel he shipped. One came into the shop to be installed and I read it and the next time I saw him I asked him What was with this break in crap?. His answer was Mac, My share of the market is about 700 barrels a year. I cater to the target crowd and they shoot a barrel about 3000 rounds before they change it. If each one uses up 100 rounds of each barrel breaking it in you can figure out how many more barrels I will get to make each year. If you will stop and think that the barrel doesn't know whether you are cleaning it every shot or every 5 shots and if you are removing all foreign material that has been deposited in it since the last time you cleaned it what more can you do? When I ship a barrel I send a recommendation with it that you clean it ever chance you get with a brass brush pushed through it at least 12 times with a good solvent and followed by two and only 2 soft patches. This means if you are a bench rest shooter you clean ever 7 or 8 rounds . If you are a high power shooter you clean it when you come off the line after 20 rounds. If you follow the fad of cleaning every shot for X amount and every 2 shots for X amount and so on the only thing you are accomplishing is shortening the life of the barrel by the amount of rounds you shot during this process. I always say Monkey see Monkey do, now I will wait on the flames but before you write them, Please include what you think is happening inside your barrel during break in that is worth the expense and time you are spending during break in
<br>I answered this and lost it on transfer so will shorten this one and try to get my point across in fewer words. When some one uses JB on one of my rifles I void the warrantee! For two reasons. ! it dimensionally alters the barrel dimensions and not evenly and the second reason is the barrel maker laps the barrel with a grit of lapping compound that is most effective in preventing metal fouling. Then a customer polishes that finish away with JB.
<br>I wouldn't be as apposed to it if it were applied on a lead lap and very sparingly. It is very obvious when you look at a barrel with a bore scopes all the sharp edges are worn off the rifling. if it has JB used on it on a regular basis. As you know ,it is an abrasive of about 1000 grit. As for using it on factory barrels I will say that while it is difficult to hurt a production barrel but the thing that hurts a match barrel will do the same to a factory barrel
<br>I would rather see you use Otters Foul out as it is easy on the barrel. I have only used it on my 50 but it worked well on it.
<br>That is right. it is a waste of barrel and time. I don't know much about lined barrels but it may be that the barrel is rough due to the plating process. With high volume fire as in full auto it helps to protect against erosion and no one is concerned with accuracy as it is spray and pray.
<br>Look at it this way, A barrel starts out with nice sharp areas of the corners of the rifling . Along the way you build a big fire in it a few thousand times and it burns the corners off. Now take a barrel that to break in you put an abrasive on a patch and run it in and out. The result is that you take the corners off the rifling so that all that fire which would have started with sharp rifling is now starting with rifling that is thousands of rounds old. Which means that a lot of the life is gone. A lap always cuts more on each end where the compound reverses direction as it starts back through the barrel which means that it is enlarging the bore at each ends of the barrel. And last picture a patch riding along the barrel with abrasive on it. It is removing material at a given rate. It comes to a place where there is copper fouling and it rides over it cutting the same amount that it was cutting before it came to the copper. You continue until all the fouling is gone and what have you done? You have put the came contour in the barrel steel that was in it when it was metal fouled. It would not be as bad if it were used on a lead lap but I ask why would you want to abuse the barrel when you can accomplish the same thing without the bad side effects. There is Sweats, Otters foul out or just a good daily cleaning with a good bore cleaner till the fouling is gone. To top this off I will relate a true happening. I built a bench rest rifle for a customer and as usual I fired 5 groups of 5 shots and calculated the aggregate. It was good enough to see that the rifle was capable of winning the Nationals so I shipped it. I got a call from the new owner saying how happy he was with it the way it shot. About 4 weeks later the rifle showed up with a note saying it wouldn't shoot. Sure enough when I tested it was shooting groups three times the size if the ones I had shot before I shipped it. When I bore scoped it the barrel looked like a mirror and the rifling wasn't square it was half round. From that time on I put a flyer in each gun saying if any abrasive was use in it voided the Warrantee.
<br>Now I am not trying to stop you from doing what you want but just inform you what is happening when you use JB. Brass brushes are softer than barrel steel and does no harm. S/S brushes are harder than barrel steel is definetly a no no. Nylon may surprise you to know is very abrasive If you doubt this look at the carbide eye on your fishing rod where nylon line has worn groves into it.
<br>The metal shavings would have had to get in the barrel after it was test fired. The barrel was a hammer forged or buttoned barrel which is not machined and is very smooth finished. No one ever said not to clean a new rifle only that it is not necessary to break it in.
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I've read that piece by Gale,numerous times. I'll not argue with the man,we all see things differently.
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<br>I break in my Custom barrels,but tend to hammer away with the Factory tubes. The reason,is because you can easily have $500 wrapped up in a good barrel and installation. An Ape could do much harm to even a mediocre barrel,with a cleaning rod. I subscribe to the theory of common sense.
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<br>I'd not buy a new brand new motor for my truck,install it and hop it in it with the first turn of the key,to see how fast she goes. Others might. I would not.
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<br>I've seen the effects of fouling and SEVERE fouling. I too use a Foul Out,because on a severe bore,I don't like to use the manual method,due to imparting even more wear and tear.
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<br>In my experience,monitoring fouling is easy. Accuracy declines and that is a red flag,that your bore needs attention. Some brand spanking new barrels,are smoother than others. I've had enough to see that,for my own eyes.
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<br>So I don't used a carved in stone cleaning regimen,nor break in procedure. I tend to shoot,until fouling is evident. Then I tackle it. With a proper sized patched jag and a deft touch,you can feel troubled areas of the bore.
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<br>Like anything else,there is a lot of Smoke and Mirrors,but as always. Common sense will prevail. Use the method,you are most comfortable with..............

Thanks for the opinions.I am not too sure about common sense prevailing,I haven't seen much of that.This old new Sako has a hammer forged Bofors steel barrel.I am certainly not benchrest,MOA or less off the bench on good days,thats all.

I write for one of the rifle magazines and recently did an extensive test on barrels from factory to super-premium hand-lapped, using a bore-scope to observe fouling and range tests for accuracy. I concluded most crash-course break-in routines aren't any better than just cleaning the barrel when groups start to enlarge.
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<br>Also, break-in helps rougher barrels more than super-smooth custom barrels. They're already smoothed by lapping at the factory!
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<br>My standard break-in for factory barrels these days is to shoot the thing, then see if it's fouling bad. If it is, then I "clean" the bore using 220-grit lapping paste on a patch wrapped around a bore brush. Unless the barrel's hopeless, this really smooths them up, without eroding the throat like fire-lapping. Most factory barrels respond well to being cleaned with JB the first few times. Custom barrels can just be shot, then cleaned every 10-30 rounds as fouling indicates. Doesn't hurt them a bit.
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<br>Most custom gunsmiths will privately admit the fancy break-in procedures are baloney, but such procedures have become so ingrained in the shooting public's consciousness that they hesitate to buck "common knowledge."

I just dug way back into the archives and after reading a couple threads i realize I need to know more. What is 220 grit lapping paste? Where do you get it? and what's the difference between this and fire-lapping? If you do either of theese does it make any difference to cleaning your barrels or achieving greater accuracy?

I like this bit of info it's from Legacy Sports International, its similar to what Browning recomends. It also explains the reason for doing so.

BREAK-IN PROCEDURE FOR GUN BARRELS USING JACKETED BULLETS
For the first ten shots we recommend using jacketed bullets with a nitro powder load (Most Factory Ammo). Clean the oil out of the barrel before each shot using a simple window cleaner (like Windex�) which will soak the oil out of the pores. After firing each cartridge, use a good copper cleaner (one with ammonia) to remove the copper fouling from the barrel. We do not recommend anything with an abrasive in it since you are trying to seal the barrel, not keep it agitated. After cleaning with bore cleaner, clean again with window cleaner after each shot. Use window cleaner because many bore cleaners use a petroleum base which you want to remove before firing the next shot. This will keep the carbon from building up in the barrel (oil left in the pores, when burned, turns to carbon). To keep the temperature cool in the barrel, wait at least 5 minutes between break-in shots. The barrel must remain cool during the break-in procedure. If the barrel is allowed to heat up during the break-in, it will destroy the steel�s ability to develop a home registration point, or memory. It will have a tendency to make the barrel �walk� when it heats up in the future. We have all seen barrels that, as they heat up, start to shoot high and then �walk� to the right. This was caused by improperly breaking in the barrel (generally by sitting at a bench rest and shooting 20 rounds in 5 minutes or so). If you take a little time in the beginning and do it right, you will be much more pleased with the barrel in the future. Look into the end of the barrel after firing a shot, and you will see a light copper-colored wash in the barrel. Remove this before firing the next shot. Somewhere during the procedure, around shot 6 or 7, it will be obvious that the copper color is no longer appearing in the barrel. Continue the window cleaner and bore cleaner applications through shot 10. Following the initial ten shots, you then may shoot 2 rounds, cleaning between each pair of shots, for the next 10 shots. This is simply insuring that the burnishing process has been completed. In theory, you are closing the pores of the barrel metal that have been opened and exposed through the
cutting and hand lapping procedures.

I've never broken in a barrel in my life. Have worn a few out though. They are either going to shoot or not. Most of them do but the ones that don't go down the road. Life is to short to spend more time cleaning than shooting!

I have never not broken in a barrel and am yet to have one not shoot. I can't say if it works or not I am not sure but so far it has worked for me and so far not doing it has worked for you. I think the biggest thing is that you don't take a new barrel and heat it up really fast for the first few rounds.

This is the ony case I've ever heard of where someone ACTUALLY TESTED whether break-in makes any difference.

As a target shooter I agree with MD's conclusions.

Reminds me of the moly craze agout 10-15 years ago. Moly "inceases velocity, improves accuracy, makes your barrel last longer," etc., etc. Yet when someone actually tested the assumptions, the only effect was that it lowered velocity because fome of the powder energy was used up in vaporizing the moly alreadyu in the barrel.

It ain't a fact until someone tests it.

Back in the '70's I was a serious BR competitor. Most people used barrels from Hart or Shilen with the occasional barrel from MacMillan. These brands were button rifled and hand lapped and were, consequently, very smooth. It was rare when one of these barrels had any real fouling problems and nobody broke in anything.
The first time I heard of anyone breaking in barrels was from a Portland, Oregon shooter who was using Bob Sherer barrels. Sherer barrels were a very well made cut rifled barrel which did not appear to have been lapped. This shooter (I think his name was Bill Simpson)told of shooting and cleaning for ten shots then shooting two etc. etc. Soom users of Atkinson barrels (also cut)adopted similar break-in procedures and soon, everyone was breaking in everything.
Just as superstitious as any other competitive shooter, I started using a modified break-in procedure as well. I simply wiped the bore after the first shot and, if metal fouling was present, scrubbed it out and fired again. If no metal showed I jst kept shooting and inspecting until it did or until my normal number of shots was fired (usually seven or eight). The I just went ahead as usual.
Now, if barrels are not lapped, I lap them. I still inspect for the first few shots but that is the extent of my break-in procedure. Since I can no longer see anything closer than about five feet, it's questionable whether or not my inspection is of any value!
I think it is of as much value to just shoot and clean when groups start to open up.
On moly,
I recently set back and rechambered a barrel which had been shot quite a bit with moly coated bullets. I used uncoated bullets and the barrel shot very well for about 50 shots (about 1/4 moa) then suddenly went sour and started shooting 1/2 minute or worse. This situation persisted for about another forty rounds during which I cleaned often and it is now shooting well again. I assume this was the time during which the moly was half there with patches of moly and not-moly throughout the bore. Nothing to do with breaking in but I found it interesting (and frusterating since the bad shooting phase started about two thirds of the way through a match). GD

The guy who does the test shooting for one of the major bullet companies (and a company that is reknowned for their accurate bullets) ran a 15,000 round test on moly a few years ago. He said that he would start seeing pressures spikes after about 50 rounds of molyed bullet went down the bore--and accuracy went south too. He said this was due to build-up in the throat that he could see with a bore-scope. A few more shots would knock the excess moly out, but until then accuracy was not so good.

I have run into some other thoughts on barrel break-in since this thread started:

Dan Lilja thinks a good layer of powder fouling HELPS REDUCE copper-fouling--and that's why we should clean the copper fouling out between the first shots, to allow the powder fouling to fill the little marks that even occur in lapped barrels.

Then other people will tell you that ALL fouling is bad, especially powder fouling.

At the risk of being stringhaulter and gilflurted I suggest that you just shoot them until they are broke in, you can clean them from time to time if you like or if the groups open up...

I tried all the secret methods of barrel break-in and finally came to the conclusion that a good barrel shoots and a bad barrel does not and all else is hooey!!

I clean my rifles after each shoot with about half a doze passes with a bore snake and am done with it, then once a year, after hunting seasons is over, I clean them with Wipe Out and grease the bores.

I ALWAYS clean the bore on a new rifle very throughly before I ever shoot it to get the remaining metal parts out of it from chambering or whatever, just in case the smith didn't...After that the bore is pretty much on its own...:) If it does not shoot to my satisfaction it comes off and a new one goes on, but that has not happened since I went to Lothar Walthar barrels, they ALL shoot tiny groups...

BTW, I have notice no difference since I quit breaking them in...

I better add that I am not a benchrest shooter these days, but I do want a rifle to shoot an inch for 3 shots at 100 yards at least, and am really a happy camper if it will shoot a 5 shot one inch group but most will not do that, they tend to open up on 4 and 5 it seems, but fortunatly not much.

Wow- this is from 2002! Whose idea was it to resurrect this sucker?


Break-in, we will never agree on it and it means different things to different folks!

I do find it hard to believe that if we are using 10-15 shots to break in a barrel that there are barrel makers dumb enough to think this makes a difference in the number of barrels they sell!

Hanco,

Here's a thread that started in 2002, then was briefly restarted in 2009. Since you apparently like to revive old threads, even if they've already pounded the subject well into the dirt, thought you might like a crack at this one--along with members who might not have been around in 2002 or 2009.

"My standard break-in for factory barrels these days is to shoot the thing, then see if it's fouling bad. If it is, then I "clean" the bore using 220-grit lapping paste on a patch wrapped around a bore brush. Unless the barrel's hopeless, this really smooths them up, without eroding the throat like fire-lapping. Most factory barrels respond well to being cleaned with JB the first few times. Custom barrels can just be shot, then cleaned every 10-30 rounds as fouling indicates. Doesn't hurt them a bit."

^^^^That's the answer!! ^^^^

I have not seen two manufacturers agree on break in procedure. Makes me think that their barrels are made from totally different metals.

I have to add however that I have had two barrels (one bought in Glasgow MT {300WM} and the other in Rapid City {280}, both cheap 700's made when Remington used molded rubber bands for stocks) that had tooling marks that looked like someone drug a heavy tool back out of the barrel. Fire lapping helped those a lot!. I've restocked those in wood and they are now two of my favorite rifles.

My break in procedure is this, clean the barrel thoroughly before shooting it the first time. Shoot it till it's hot 20-30 rounds and clean it again while still warm. Repeat 2 more times. I have some very accurate rifles that don't string when hot either. If the barrel is rough inside it will show quickly with this treatment and it will get the lapping paste treatment after removing the copper fouling. I was doing this long before anyone came out with the shoot one shot and clean it again method, saw no reason to change my ways.

Most people do not realize that the moon has as much effect on barrels as it does on tides. This is effect is at its height during break-in. To properly prepare a barrel to deal with this force it is imperative to perform the break-in process during one single phase of the moon. (Fortunately, which phase is chosen is not critical.) The process involves the firinng of 360 consecutive shots, one aimed at each degree of a circle around the bench.

5sdad,

That sounds like it would be at least as effective as any other break-in method.

I'm still using the method arrived at years ago, except for one addition: Clean the barrel in any rifle new to me, then shoot it until there's some indication it might need cleaning again.

The addition: If the barrel copper-fouls badly from the get-go, clean it throughly and install Dyna Bore-Coat.

I won't keep a barrel that copper fouls badly, if polishing it with bore paste doesn't fix it I get a new barrel.

John,

I just cut to the chase, and do that on all of them before they leave the house for the first time

Palidun,

Dyna Bore Coat cures a fouler far easier and quicker than any sort of polishing. It even works on rough factory barrels.

Dyna Bore coat, gonna look that up. I guess I have had awesome luck in the barrels I have owned. The worst barrel for fouling copper was a Holloway Arms blank I had turned down, fluted and chambered for 308, what a waste of money! This barrel spewed copper out onto the muzzle. Maybe Dyna Bore coat would have saved it but I put a Douglas 22-250 barrel on the old Mexican Mauser and all was good.

John,

I have a suspicion that DBC is nothing more than Hexagonal Boron Nitride suspended in some form of carrier. I had great luck with the first formula, but after it hardened up and Doug sent a replacement, it didn't offer anywhere near the benefits. I've been playing with HBN both as a bullet treatment and applied to the bore in a slurry with rubbing alcohol. I have a bunch and would be more than happy to send you some to mess with if you are interested.

Higgins

Higgins,

Thanks, but I have what's probably a lifetime supply of DBC.

According to the people at Dyna-Tek, it's a silica-based formula, and I've had good results from all the versions. The latest one, in fact, is what saved the barrel on my .338 Winchester Magnum.

The barrel always was something of a fouler, but shot so well I didn't mind cleaning it every 30-35 rounds. Tried various things to smooth it up, including mild abrasives, but eventually it started fouling so much accuracy disappeared after only 20 rounds,m when the bore appeared to be almost solid copper. JB Compound was the only way to get it out within a reasonable period of time. (By the way, through my Hawkeye bore-scope, the bore looked perfectly smooth, which gives credence to Dan Lilja's claim, based on his research, that repeated cleaning with JB can make a bore too smooth: There's more surface-contact with the bullet, so copper-fouling actually increases.)

It took two applications of DBC to cure the barrel. Now I only clean it every 80-100 rounds by pushing a few patches soaked in Montana Extreme down the bore. It's done in five minutes.

Soooo... DBC makes the barrel rougher??? (I couldn't resist)

Apparently!

Actually, I dunno how the stuff works. Doug Burche told me it filled in imperfections in the bore, but since it also apparently works on super-smooth bores.

Maybe it's like a Thermos bottle, which keeps cold stuff cold and hot stuff hot. :-)

How does it know?????

After days of cleaning with most methods ever published one of my rifles will still produce light blue patches when chemical bore cleaner is run through the barrel on a patch.

It's an accurate rifle, but... How clean does it have to be?

Believe me, I've tried chemicals, foam included, abrasives such as JB and Remington's. I've plugged the bore and had chemicals in 24 hours. Still light blue patches. I have not tried the electrical rod method, yet.

Another thing Dan Lilja (and some other barrel makers) suggest is not getting barrels too damn clean. Again through experimentation, Dan believes leaving a little something inside the bore helps accuracy, especially a slight amount of powder fouling.

I quit cleaning barrels as hard or as often years ago, because of my own experiments. A good barrel really doesn't need much cleaning to stay accurate--and if it does, I install DBC, which solves the problem. (Unlike Jordan, I don't automatically install it in every barrel that comes into the house--except for those on a particular brand of factory rifle. I've tested a bunch of them over the years, along with owning several, and it's far easier to install DBC right away than have to clean the bore frequently during testing.)

One thing I started doing decades ago was keep a log of the shots fired through my rifles, including when they were cleaned. I found almost all of them could go a LONG time between cleanings and still shoot fine, often several hundred rounds. And since most of them also shot larger groups for a while after cleaning, I quit cleaning 'em much. Life is good.

The fouling history of the brand must be savage to need a preemptive strike like that.

I DBC from the start and go from there. Sorta breaks'em in without much trouble. After a few shoot/clean cycles most good barrels are near foul free. The others, much easier to clean. By clean, I mean Hawkeye bore scope clean.

DF

I should have been more clear. Installing DBC requires a clean barrel. How clean is clean enough. I'm not that much of a fanatic on having to have the barrel that clean normally.

It needs to be as clean as you can possibly make it, dry and oil-free.

I have yet to encounter a barrel where following the directions that come with DBC hasn't done the job.

Yeah, the guy that wrote those directions must have known what he was talking about!

Some of the time, anyway!

Ah, the mythical "totally clean patch" that will someday arrive on the horn of a unicorn being ridden by a leprechaun.

You reckon...

Needs to be down to the steel, squeaky clean before applying DBC.

DF

There are those fellers that keep scrubbing with a bronze brush and swabbing with a brass jag and wonder why they're still getting blue patches.

But, in Jordon's defense, a barrel is probably cleaner when it's new than after it's been shot a bunch. Thus, it's a lot easier to clean.

Given that, why not DBC them while they're pristine. I don't think DBC can hurt, can only help. Some barrels may not need DBC, but it can't hurt'em. The others will for sure benfit.

So, guess I'm with Jordon on that one.

To me, it's a practical matter, do what easiest...

DF

JB said, "And since most of them also shot larger groups for a while after cleaning, I quit cleaning 'em much. Life is good."

Being a bit under the weather today, and bored, I will share some thoughts on this subject that all of you experienced folks already know, but may be helpful to some less experienced. Please pardon my rambling.

Not knowing that bit about larger groups right after cleaning tricked me sometimes many years ago when I started serious load testing. I thought the cleaner the better, for accuracy.

I would go to the range with a squeaky clean barrel to test some loads or a new bullet and it took a while for me to realize that the first group wasn't going to be a valid accuracy test. And the very first shot doesn't give a valid velocity through the chronograph, either.

In my experience most good barrels settle down within a couple of shots. A very worn barrel may need a dozen rounds to build up enough fouling to achieve the best accuracy it can provide. That is the case with my old Savage M-1920 in 250-3000. It starts out with a 5" group at 100 yards from a clean barrel, but from round 12 on the groups are all under two inches with most about an inch or so, some less.

In the Marines during our days at the rifle range we had to clean our rifles ridiculously clean at the end of each day, and pass inspection. Except, at the end of the last day before qualifying day the DI's forbid us to clean the barrels so we would start out the next day with fouled barrels. Since those M-14s were very worn it probably did make a noticeable difference.

Mike Venturino has mentioned his long-time habit of putting his first shot out of a clean barrel into the berm before starting on the paper target. Only for some of his hunting rifles did he want to know how far out of the group the first bullet went from a clean barrel.

A good recommendation for hunting rifles is to not clean the bore between your last sight-in confirmation shots and the first day of the hunt.

Many outfitters require their clients to check their sight-in after first arriving at base camp before starting the hunt.

This accomplishes three things: it confirms that the sight-in didn't get knocked off during travel, or gets corrected to a better sight-in. More than one hunter has showed up for an expensive hunt and when asked if his rifle is sighted in, has replied, "Yes, I just had that new scope put on the day before I left and the kid at the gun store said he bore-sighted it for me for free".

Secondly, the outfitter can see how the client handles his rifle (safely and with familiarity?) and how well he can shoot. And thirdly, it fouls the barrel for accuracy and demonstrates that the rifle and scope are functioning properly.

Now when I go to the range to test loads with a clean barrel I don't pay much attention to the first group. This is fine if I am starting with a lighter load and working up through increasing charges to find a good load.

If I am intending to start right out with a serious test I will put a few factory loads down range from one of the boxes I used to find initial accuracy and velocity info when I first obtained that rifle. Or I may have some leftover rounds from a load that has since been surpassed by better loads or bullets. Otherwise the obsolete, inferior loads get used for offhand practice.

Years ago, before DBC came along, and my knowledge increased, I used JB Bore Paste to get ALL the copper out after every shooting session, verified with my bore-scope. I spent a LOT of time and energy cleaning rifle barrels. Now the most frequent use for the JB Bore Paste is to prepare a bore for the DBC treatment. I also like the guy that wrote those cleaning directions. (smile)

Now I spend much less time cleaning barrels and life is better.

DF,

While new barrels are usually pretty clean when new, most still have the remnants of proof or test-firing in the bore, so need to be cleaned before installing DBC. In fact, the bores of the unnamed rifle brand known for barrels that foul considerably often have enough copper in 'em to be very visible at the muzzle, just from test-firing a round at the factory.

Aside from instances like that, I give 'em all a chance to prove whether they're going to foul or not before installing DBC. We own one very accurate .223 that has gone 500+ rounds without cleaning, with no deterioration in accuracy, and has never been DBC'd. Have several other rifles that will go around 200 rounds without cleaning, and don't bother cleaning them either.

But then, aside from when installing DBC my normal cleaning routine is to run a loose patch soaked in Montana Extreme through the bore, wait overnight, then push a couple fresh, tight patches through.

Nifty-two-fifty,

Glad you like that guy, whoever he is!

I have also seen brand-new, hand-lapped custom barrels that would take at least a dozen fouling rounds to settle down after cleaning. In fact one drove me nuts until I figured it out. I'd go to the range with a dozen or maybe 15 handloads to test, and the rifle wouldn't shoot worth a darn. Then I'd go home, clean the bore, load some more ammo, and head back to the range.

Finally didn't clean it after maybe the 4th range session, and the next time it shot great! Turned out it would go 75-80 rounds before groups opened up, and even then it was only slightly.

I read an article that claimed shooting barrels while they are clean will last twice as many rounds before they go sour. Can't remember the magazine.

What say you: Is this likely, possible?

John, I have a Model 70 375 H&H from 1997 or there about. I don't think it's been fired so I cleaned as I would a new rifle and the blueing is obviously still present in the bore. Two questions. Will the blueing affect the DBC application, and how long can I leave the DBC in the bore without curing with sending bullets down the barrel. IE can it sit in there for a month?
Thanks.

Bugger,

What was the author's definition of a clean barrel? Cleaned between each shot?

pathfinder,

As long as you clean the bore of all fouling and oil, the blueing won't affect DBC at all.

Don't remember how long I've left DBC in a bore before shooting/curing, but it's been at least several days, and maybe weeks. Doesn't seem to make any difference.

I once asked Doug Burche about leaving DBC in a bore for a long time. I had a CM barrel (oh! the horror!), and it was headed to a stockmaker's for whittling, then it would be blued. As a result it was to be more than a year before it would be finished, and I didn't want the bore to rust while it was sitting in his shop.

Doug said no problems at all leaving DBC in the bore even for more than a year, and that it would provide rust resistance when installed. He also mentioned NOT to put Dyna Gun Shield on the exterior of the barrel, because the gunsmith wouldn't be able to remove it to blue the barrel.

I put DBC in all barrels as soon as I get them, new or no. I do clean the new barrels with the same process as a used barrel, with the bore cleaner, JB bore paste, etc. Just one less thing to worry about while shooting, and I clean my rifles at a very irregular interval now.

I will always one guy's idea on barrel break in. He said he breaks in barrels just like he breaks in oil changes. Makes sense to me.

DBC fills in the pores of the steel and has a lower coefficient of friction than steel, so once cured it "scrapes" less material off the bullet jacket, and as you know, it relinquishes it much easier than steel does, as well.

Yup, that's my rationale, too.

I believe it was an article in American Rifleman. It was only several years back. Last time our cousins got together for a Prairie Dog hunt I brought the subject up. That was three years ago. Sadly this hunt used to be annual. But we're doing again in two weeks. 😊

As I recall the author was a clean fanatic, cleaning after every ten rounds or so. If I recall correctly at least some of but not all was in regards to Ar-15's, M1's and the like. But he also covered bolt action rifles. He may have even brought up bench rifles.

It's not that I'm not a cleanliness freak, it's that I have other things to do. And oh yes, to have complete disclosure both my wives (past and present) think/thought that I'm a slob. But they obviously have/had judgement issues.

The article was news to me and I've not seen another, pro or con.

Guess we gotta double team JB from time to time...

He's a purist, I'm more along the lines of expediency, if a little is good a lot must be better...

DF

Actually, NOT installing DBC in every barrel is all about expediency for me. If I installed DBC in every rifle that came in the door, I wouldn't get much else done. If only one rifle a month showed up it would make sense, but that's not the way it works around here!

So I install it in some to forestall almost certain severe fouling, and decide on the others after shooting them.

JB's day job is to fool with rifles, as where I don't have time to sort out which barrels need help and which don't, so while I didn't always do it this way, now they all get treated right out the gate since I've never seen DBC be detrimental to any barrel yet, so I figure it can't hurt. It doesn't take me long to get brand new barrels clean to bare steel, and I would be running a couple of patches down anyway to clean up any metal shavings, and applying the coating takes an extra 5 minutes.

I'm sure JB doesn't mind us having diverging thoughts when it comes to a preference issue. Now if this was a technical disagreement we'd be in trouble

Ha!

Yeah, I'm at the range quite a bit (last week three times), so it doesn't take long to sort them out.

I've also never seen any negative effects from DBC, and in fact one other reason I sometimes install it is rust prevention. Rifles normally don't rust much here in Montana, but while I don't travel to hunt as much as much as a few years ago, once in a while I end up someplace wet. Which is why my rifles with waterproof exteriors tend to have DBC'd bores as well.

Agreed. It's pretty dry here in AB, too, but I like not having to worry about rust at all, so my rifles either have Cerakote or DGS on the outside and DBC on the inside. I've seen some simply amazing things when it comes to DBC preventing rust.

I see JB's point; it's not a technical issue, a function of logistics.

Makes perfect sense. (Not surprising... )

I don't have that many; it's easy for me to DBC them all.

DF

My "opinion" is the only breaking in of a good custom lapped barrel is the throat. To alleviate this I put a bronze brush in my electric drill, wrap the brush with a little 0000 steel wool and lap the chambering fluff out of the throat. About 5-10 seconds. The bore has been lapped already and the machining fluff from the reamer in the throat is your problem. Now, just go out and shoot it. I don't use factory barrels and would not form any opinion on them.

Taking this to the next logical step (uh-oh ) is there a consequent drop in pressure/speed after application which allows a higher charge to attain the same pressure/speed?

Or is that just crazy talk?

I think that rather than "allowing" a higher charge to achieve the same pressure/speed, it would be "requiring". Using more powder to achieve the same thing wouldn't seem to be a positive to me.

yep yep

That's the point of my question, I guess.

Does that occur and is it a significant difference - fouling aside.

Velocity of the bullet comes from sustained pressure as the bullet is pushed down the bore (bear with me). There are two primary sources of this pressure that is generated- the inertia of the bullet and the tight fit between the bore and bullet, providing resistance against the rapidly expanding, hot gases in the chamber, as well as the coefficient of friction between the bullet and the bore. The bullet's inertia and bullet/bore fit is by far the biggest contributor to resistance, and therefore pressure generation, with coeff. of friction between the bullet and bore being a very minor portion. An analogy would be you trying to push a 10,000 lbs boulder through a doorway in your living room (don't ask me how it got there) on carpet versus linoleum. The difference in resistance the boulder gives you when pushed on carpet versus linoleum is pretty insignificant, considering the amount of force required to overcome the inertia of the boulder and squeeze it through the doorway. This can be seen when we modify the friction between the bullet and the bore by either changing the bullet material or the bore surface. In this case, the coating fills in pores and reduces friction, but the change in overall pressure is minimal.

But the reduction in the coefficient of friction is enough to prevent the bullet's jacket from scraping off and being deposited in the pores and crevices of the bore.

Here's a couple of 1000 words to show you what I mean: