Particularly interested in Mule Deer's opinion, as I know he is a quarterbore fan. I have a Rem 700 CDL Stainless Fluted with a 24 inch barrel that I was thinking of rechambering for the Ackley version. Thoughts??

My first custom was a 257AI and I love it. I get 25-06ish numbers (3330 fps w/ 100s) and long, long case life w/ no stretching in 7 firings.

That having been said, when I had the chance to build another custom on which I intended to correct the issues I had with that 1st I went with the Standard Bob. Same with a first deer rifle for my son; standard Bob.

If you just like something a little different with less trimming AI is cool, but in the long run it really is hard to beat the original Bob. I wouldn't punch it knowing what I know.

In my experience, no, but others will no doubt feel differently. I could see some difference on the chronograph but not in the field.

You don't have to trim the brass with the .257 AI, but since I generally load big game rounds 50 at a time, and a 50-round box will last a few seasons, I don't find trimming them every 3-4 shots a big deal.

I've used the .257 Ackley and it's a decent round. In later years, I found that if I wanted a little stronger medicine than the .257 Roberts, I simply defaulted to the .25-'06.

During the last ten years that I was able to hunt, I used the standard .25-'06 with 100-grain bullets quite a lot and I never found it lacking ... even for bull elk. And for antelope & mules/whitetail, the .25-'06 is absolutely superb.

In retrospect, I was way too slow to appreciate the .25-'06.

Blessings,

Steve

Probably not worth it. 257AI is fun to play with if you want something different. But for all practical purposes, including effectiveness on game, it's probably not worth it.

Now the 250AI.................oh......never mind.

Here's a pic of several 1/4 bores that I shoot. 2nd from right is 257AI between std Rbts and 257 Bee. Not sure why I didn't include 25-06. Just forgot.

I built a 257AI for my late Wife and we both liked it alot. That being said if I had a Bob already I would not think it worth the effort/expense to make the change. Building from scratch now that is different.

NOW you're talking ,
That's my next.......

I would agree, I just had the reamer. I still love it as I am a big fan of P O Ackley. I spent my youth reading his 2 volume manuals and just thinking how much better his cartridges kill better. Just like a lot of things in life, after you get what you want it's not everything you thought it would be!

Karen's .250 Ackley is nothing short of superb. If I took it away from her and sold it, that would be the end of a 49-year marriage.

In recent years, the quality of .250 Savage ammo and .250 Savage brass has become really awful. Because of this, I neck-up Winchester brand .22-250 cases in a Redding .250 Savage die with a loooooong Redding tapered expander. It helps to use a VLD inside neck chamfering tool and just a touch of lube inside the necks.

Then, of course, the cases are fireformed, as normal

The .22-250 cases converted to .250 Ackley are nothing short of superb.

Blessings,

Steve

Noted.
Thanks for the good info.

Ditto. I was getting expanded primer pockets within two or three firings with .250 Savage brass, this with very moderate loads.

I fireformed Winchester .22-250 brass to .250 AI and it's still going strong after five firings.

John,

I had my son's 257 Roberts re-chambered to AI the first year Ruger offered the round in the 77. His wouldn't shoot any standard load recipe I tried, and there were a great many.

I sent it to Bob Dunlap, and he said "why not try an AI re-chamber?". He did it as a favor to me. Groups shrunk to about 1/3 the size for whatever reason.

We also got about 100-140 fps increased velocity, given the same relatively pressure signs.

Back then there was no +P ammo for it, also, and the Bob was loaded pretty mild in factory ammo.

Most likely an off chamber? I remember hearing similar stories when the rechambered to STW from RM were en vogue... Had to figure some factory chambers were a little off?

I love the AI and if I had a Bob giving me trouble I'd do that before retubin'!

Steve,

It also took me too damn long to "discover" the .25-06. It happened on a cull deer hunt in Ireland, of all places, using a Heym straight-pull bolt action with a 3-12x Schmidt & Bender scope! Now I have two .25-06's of my own, both very accurate.

Actually, there's no such thing as the wrong .25. No .25/35 or .257 Wby (yet), but plenty of others in between.

I have 13 rifle chambered in 257 and the 700 CDL-SF parts gun is my favorite. Rather than spending $$ to have your chamber recut and buy a set of 257AI dies, I think that you would get more value by using that $$ to have your barreled action bedded in a McM stock in your favorite style. My 700 CDL-SF is bedded in the McM McM Hunter style and changing the stock has made a "night & day" difference in how well it handles.

In addition to the 13 257s, I have a few 257AIs and 25-284s. While both the 257AI and 25-284 are faster, I don't think that either is enough faster to make a meaningful difference, because of the slightly flatter trajectory, in the field.

I read the article on this hunt. Great read.

Thoughts....AI a Roberts....

Don't be silly.

Please do tell me that you are still blessed to go out, even for a small walk and hunt a little still? Bless you. John.

After having several 250s and 257s on short actions, I think I'd be more likely to do the 250AI instead of the 257AI. I doubt I will ever build another 257 on a 2.8in action. Maybe in a 3inch action, but still doubt I'd go the AI. A 25-06 would just be too easy to get and do the same thing.

I built a .257 AI on a Mexican Mauser action with a Krieger barrel and a Rimrock stock about 15 years ago. It is one of my very favorite rifles. Except for one quirk, I cannot honestly say that it is significantly better than if I had just had it chambered for the factory cartridge.

This rifle is a little weird in that I get AI velocities with hand loading data for the factory cartridge. These loads are almost always in the lower end of the range shown in the loading manuals. My gunsmith and I have never been able to figure out why this happens, but it does. My grandson has a very nice Remington Model 7 chambered in .257 Roberts. I bought this rife from Karnis here on the campfire after he had reworked it. My rifle gets 100-150 fps more with the same powder charges and bullets.

All of this makes me scratch my head and wonder why I don't just buy factory rifles and shoot them and leave the custom builds and wildcats for others. Then I would have more time for crossword puzzles and reading the longer threads here on the campfire.

Hi John,

Karen and I walk about two miles every day, rain or shine.

As far as hunting and shooting, that's pretty much a dream of many past years. I injured my right shoulder while dragging out a Montana antelope for Karen. The surgeons did what the could, but the result is a very weak arm and a shoulder that cannot stand recoil of almost any sort.

I have not chased a further shoulder/arm repair because I have lots of other body parts that are frigged up from horse wrecks and such. And I live so far from any decent hunting that it just isn't worth the effort ... no complaint, just fact.

Hey, my friend, I have lived a hunting and shooting life that was most extraordinary. And it's fine that it has stopped.

Today, I spend lots of time teaching and I never knew that I had that ability. I find that part of my life to be incredibly rewarding. Also, I have lots of e-mails, PMs and such with hunting/handloading questions. It's fun keeping my hand in the gunny world by helping others.

And my blog has taken off beyond all possible expectations. Interestingly, there is a large following that comes from 24HCF folks.

So, my friend, life is good and we're enjoying every single second of it.

All the best,

Steve

PS. I have a blog that will be posted probably next week. It's entitled, "The Story of Stowie." It's one of my favorite writings and you might enjoy it.

My 257 Ack loves the Nosler 100 gr Partition with IMR 4831 . You will like it other than forming brass. My 257 Ack built on a LH Sako action

Wildcats and improved cartridges are never worth the effort really but we are not a practical bunch are we.
But think about this. You gain valuable knowledge about things such as bullet seating and powder burn rates and just overall shooting/loading practices. If you want it for a gain over somthing the factory has to offer it just won't happen. Everything is pretty much covered. I think everyone should play around with a wildcat it gives us somthing to do the other 11 months of the year...

I have always wanted a 6mm-06, but I have a mod. 70 25-06 so why bother I decided. When I got it I wanted a deer/ant. rifle that shot as flat as my 77V Swift, It's damn close, but not a Swift!-Muddy

What I also like is finding a suitable .22-.250 rifle and rebarreling that to .250 Savage. There are lots of the former available, and almost none of the latter...

jim

There are many incredibly valuable things we learn when we work with wildcat cartridges. Loading with no data, or questionable data, is part of it. Also, learning the minut1ae of determining the very beginning of pressure signs and a zillion other aspects of load development.

BUT THE MOST valuable thing we learn from wildcats is to approach EVERY loading project, even if it is for the common .30-'06, as if it was a wildcat.

When you've gotten to that point, when you use the loading data as a rough guide instead of Gospel ... you have become not only an accomplished handloader, but a safe one.

Blessings,

Steve

Well stated, Steve. Complacency, when it bites, bites hard. Have a Happy New Year.
Mike

For a long time the .257 AI was my one and only centerfire, a Pre 64 Model 70. I found it on consignment at a local gunshop in southern MO when I was 15 yo. I knew that it had been re-barreled but the owner had no idea with what..


I had been saving my fur money for a Remington 700 in 25-06 but when I found this for less I bought it. It came with a set of dies but I did not have my own press at that time. My girlfriends dad had one and when I showed interest he began teaching me to reload. I simply fireformed factory loads that first season.

By the time my first spring with this rifle rolled around the GF was ancient history and I had enough money to buy my own press. My fireforming days were over, I had a ton of brass formed from shooting everything that walked, hopped, flew, or crawled.. The rifle simply amazed me everytime I pulled the trigger. I figured it would pretty much be a laser beam with fireformed loads.. I was disappointed when I could not tell a difference...

I didn't let it get me down though! I was determined to use IMR-4831 and the Speer 100gr BT Spitzer because both were cheap and readily available where I lived...Not to mention I was broke and liked to shoot a lot...!

Turned out, the load was accurate enough that I could stand my cases with cracked necks on a stump at 100yds and shoot a perfect hole through them without touching an edge. My buddies were always amazed and I developed quite the reputation because of those stunts.

In all honesty it wasn't that hard with a good rest and the 4x12 power scope I had. The rifle was simply more accurate than everybody's rifle, that's all....

I had no idea how fast it shot but I thought it was close enough to the 25-06 that I no longer needed that Rem 700. While it was rough on fur I didn't care, I always knew I could put up enough fur with my traps.....

25yrs later, I figure it has killed about as many deer as blue tounge, but I truly have no idea how many rounds I have put through it or how many heartbeats it has stopped. A peek at the shank may give you an idea if you know what your looking at. Hint, it used to say 257 Rob Ack Imp..! I believe it was initially chambered for 257 Roberts but re-chambered for AI some time before I got it.. I've set it back twice since then and the evidence of "Rob" is all but gone...


It's safe to say that it has been shot a helluva lot, and then some!

Last year I let the boy re-finish the stock for his freshman woodshop project. Considering the condition it was currently in, he couldn't hurt it. He got a B but I think it turned out ok. I told him the shop teacher was probably just jealous because he didn't own a Pre 64 257 AI.....He laughed! You can still tell it's been carried some...........


So, is the AI worth it? To me it is! After all these years reloading, I still hate trimming brass and the extra velocity is always extra icing on the cake! Lastly for me there's the nostalgia..After all, it's the rifle that started me down the road to "loony-ville"...

X-VERMINATOR

I had a .220 Swift that gave crazy velocities. Also blew primers right left and sideways with book starting loads. Finally chronographed some. Starting loads were about 200 fps faster than the max loads were supposed to be.

I never expected IMR 4831 to be the solution for a Swift but it worked. I managed to get to the max load of 44 grains under a 55 grain ballistic tip. Something in the quarter inch range at 200 yards ... I was knocking consecutive push pins through the target at that distance.

My best guess is that barrel was way, way, tight.

Garth Kendig, Leupold's Range Master, has perhaps the slowest danged .25-'06 on the planet. Personally, I'd screw off the barrel and use it for a freakin' tomato stake ... but, he loves it.

My Pac-Nor gain-twist (11-to-9') was a total mistake, but Chris wanted to see how it shot. So, I put it on a CPR Custom that was dicked ... the barrel is the exact opposite of Garth's. It thinks it's a .257 Weatherby with slightly-hottish .25'06 loads of RL-22.

Quarter-bores are fascinating.

I once stated in print that ALL barrels are FEMALE. Man, did the ladies have a problem with that. The statement stands.

Blessings,

Steve

My present .25-06 is like that. It's a custom rifle on a VZ-24 action, with the action work and barrel done by P.O. Ackley's shop. The guy who had it made was an Air Force major stationed in Germany, who then had the barreled action stocked over there. The barrel's 26" long and gets around 3450 fps with 100's and over 3300 with 115's, using published loading data, with zero signs of excessive pressure.

Words of wisdom. When we hand load everyrifle/cartridge is a wildcat. There'd be a lot fewer mysteries in developing loads for rifles if we looked at this way.

I got a 257 Roberts Ackley Improved reamer and 4 CM Lothar Walther light varmint barrels from Brownells in 2002.
I built up 4 rifles on 98 Mauser actions, one for myself, and 3 for the guys I hunt with. I got them sets of dies.

The barrels were really too heavy for deer hunting, but we tried.
They were the most accurate rifles we had ever owned.
None of us had got less than 1/2" 5 shots a 100 yards before then. 3600 fps with 75 gr Vmax seemed the best.

In 2012 I used the reamer a 5th time, on a Shilen select match stainless #3 taper on an 1885 action.
I was getting 0.9 moa average. This was no target gun, but light weight. I shot 4 mule deer with it in 2012 between 50 and 400 yards with 115 gr Nos Bal tip 3050 fps. I could not ask for a better deer cartridge out to 400 yards.

After all this screwing around with forming an Ackley shoulder, this year I bought a 257 Roberts reamer and a 25-06 reamer.
Hopefully I have kicked the Ackley habit.

I built myself a 6mm-06 and now use it more than my 257 Ack or 25-06 . 6mm-06 try it , because you will like it

Clark it won't be easy to kick that 257AI MONKEY OFF YOUR BACK. powdr

You think i'm going to Ackley my 257, your crazy!

That's a gorgeous rfle. Details?

I wound up with a Kimber select in .257. It will stay a standard .257.

One guy I deer hunted with about 20 years ago had a custom .257AI, and he was proud of telling people his gun had an "Ackley Improvement". I asked him what loads he was using, and he replied, "Winchester"

I wouldn't turn down a good .257AI if one came my way, but I would not go out of my way to build one.

A good .257AI has not come my way but a 257 Roberts LT (long throat) did and it has been interesting to compare velocity and accuracy results with my twin standard-throated Bob's.

I've had quite a few standard .257's over the years, which haven't always been standard, so have done some testing with longer throats and various barrel lengths. One was a red-pad Ruger No. 1B with a VERY long throat and, of course, a 26" barrel. It wouldn't shoot any lead-cored bullet under 115 grains very well, but was very accurate with 115 Ballistic Tips at 3100 fps. And no, I wasn't pushing them very hard, in fact stopped there only because that's where my calculations suggested a long-seated .257 could safely go.

Like John I have had several Roberts rifles with long throats...and can add on top watching friends work loads with a few others. Most of mine had 22-23" barrels.

I have seen about the same thing he has with the 115's,and velocities in excess of 3000 fps. 120's did about 2900+,about what we see from a 270-150.

100 gr bullets went 3150-3200.

Comparing this stuff to data for the Improved I never got around to the Improved version.

I'm not convinced about wildcat cartridges (except for unknown to me specialized purposes). Today, the range of commercial cartridges covers everything from small game to elephants with a lot of overlap. If I want more energy, I'll go with a larger cartridge (perhaps the 260 Remington in lieu of the 257 AI?).

Of course, this ignores the fun of having and shooting something different, but then I might be a spoil-sport. Just my opinion.

This is one of the wisest postings I have read in many years.

I screwed an old 308 barrel onto a surplus Venezuelan 7x57 Mauser action and had it reamed out to a 30-06 AI, back before the days of internet forums or electronic load data.

The only load data I could find was a forty year old Speer manual. I learned more about this hobby of reloading from that project than I have from everything else I have done all put together.

Today half of my meager collection consists of wildcats, and the other half are rare enough chamberings that load data was nearly nonexistent when I purchased the rifle.

I picked it up, technically used, about 5 years back,but it only had 20-40 rounds through it. Miscommunication between owner and gunsmith = too short LOP (13-5/8") = benefit to me.

-1953 Pre 64 M70 action blueprinted and full action gone over by Kreiger, then again by Glen.
-#2ish 24" Krieger barrel with long cone to balance out the rifle.
-Calif English, Dakota, Special Selection, 2-3 grades higher (Glen Morovitz, the 'smith stocked for Dakota for quite some time)
-9 lb 1 oz but feels much lighter since the balance is perfect
-Sunny Hill BM
-Action completely glass bedded, no pillars, un godly tight wood to metal fit.

It likes heavier stuff (115 BT and 120 PT) with IMR 4350/4831/H4831.

Was offered a chance to buy it's twin sister in 375 H&H this past summer but, alas, fund poor.

Finally killed something it 3 months back with the 115 BT.

Gorgeous rifle.