I just had a pile of old Sierra bullets drop in my lap. They came as a package deal with a very nice Husqvarna model 640 in .270 Win caliber - 90 grain hollowpoints and 110 gr spitzers (neither of which I have any use for), plus a couple boxes of 130 and 150gr "Spitzer, BT".

I hunt antelope, deer and elk, and I have no experience with Sierra as a hunting bullet. I'm thinking I'll move up to a 150gr Partition for elk, but what do you think of the 130gr bullet for antelope and deer, with the 150gr Sierra as a practice load for the Partition?

Should work great.

I've killed truckloads of deer and pronghorn with the 130 Sierra soft-point boattail (more commonly known as the GameKing these days) from the .270 Winchester and it works great on that size of game.

It's also quite common for Sierra's and Partitions of the same weight to shoot to the same point of impact with the same powder charge. I've done it a bunch with various cartridges, including the .270.

By the way, the 90 Sierra hollow-point and 50 grains of IMR4895 usually shoots very well. That's not a top-velocity load, but it doesn't kick much and often shoots to the same POI as a 130-grain full-power load. Works great for off-season practice on varmints.

Thanks!

I don't have any 4895, but there is some H4831 and H380 on hand. I was figuring on the H380 for the light stuff, but I've never tried it before. If there was an H380 load that wouldn't require me to change the scope settings, I'd be in heaven.

I use the 130 g sierra prohunters in the .270, and they are deer killas. can't imagine that the boattail version of the same bullet would do any worse. I use H4831SC.

My .270 Win Model 70 24" barrel classic shoots the 130 grain Sierra and Partitions to same point of impact with Win cases, Fed 210 primers and 59.0 to 60.0 grains of H 4831 sc. I use the Sierra bullets for deer and antelope and have used the Partitions on deer and caribou.

I am not generally an advocate of light bullets at high speed for anything other than foxes or rabbits. But.....

I have used a good few of those 90g Sierra HPs, because like you they dropped into my lap for free.

On medium sized pigs up to about 50kg - they smack them down with alacrity. They are even better on goats of just about any size.

I loaded them eventually up to about 3550fps. As I alluded I generally like 130s and 150s in my 270 Win but at a pinch those Sierra 90s are far from the worst medium game bullet.


PS. They also seem to be very effective on rocks for practice!

Alacrity...thanks for the new word. Had to look it up!

130gr Game Kings launched at 3100 or so kill the snot out of whitetails. I had a very long string of DRT kills with them back when I was a kid...

John

Czech...PM sent!

Elk Country

The 130 grain Serria BT had a reputation as a top deer/antelope load when I was a kid over 50 years ago.. I doubt things have changed much.. I used the 140 Serria HPBT on a nice whitetail last fall and it did an excellent job.. As for the 150's friends used to use that one in heavy brush.. Never messed with the 90 grain, but the 110's if they are Serria had a reputation as a great bullet for both varmint and deer. I load the 110's in my .270 for coyotes..

Not familiar with the lighter bullets, but sure have had good results using 150's[Hornady's]. In the .270 Win, H4831sc is your friend.

Some folks fail to realize or acknowledge that Sierra, perhaps more than most bullet makers, uses alloy variations rather than other construction techniques, to control bullet behavior. While there can be better bullets in some circumstances, Sierra bullets can be very effective and have not let me down.

I like Sierra bullets because they have not fallen into the "it's gotta penetrate steel" group and sill stand for fast expansion. The Ballistic Tips are a good example of a bullet made too tough when they were generally just fine in the first place.

I am the odd man out on this subject.

When I got in handloading seriously, early 80's, I tested bullets in EVERY medium I had available, no gelatin. I tested Hornady, Speer, & Sierra in the SAME THINGS. I used 'clay roots', banks of diff types of dirt, even BOX OF SAND (don't waste your time) bundles of paper, box of SIFTED topsoil, etc.

I tested the diff bullets in the SAME things, at the same distances, at the same velocities IN .243 and .270.

Remember this is the 80's. I NEVER, NEVER, EVER found ONE Sierra bullet that did not SHED the CORE.

Consequently I have NEVER even hunted a Sierra bullet on BG.

Some yrs. after my own tests, I got Bob Hagel's book "Handloading and Practical Ballistics for the American Hunter" (or something close in title).

I will paraphrase him and I still have the book and will quote him IF anyone wants to read it.

He said, Apparently Sierra focused their bullet making on accuracy instead of performance on game animals. (paraphrased)

I had ALREADY made my decision but Mr. Hagel cemented it.



I have a ? for NOW. Has Sierra made changes in the last 30 yrs. in bullet making?? Should I give them another test run?

despite what many claim deer hunters do not need armor piercing bullets to kill deer. It's no secret that I'm a Nosler Partition fan, but I know from Killing a lot of deer that Sierras are almost perfect for the job. Moreover, if a .270 will not shoot with 58-60grs of H4831 and a 130gr. Sierra it is very sick puppy. Also, in some rifle 55-56grs of H4831 and the 150gr Sierra can be scary accurate, it certainly is in my pet .270. I can also verify the a 90gr Sierra will turn a jack rabbit into a bloody, cloudy mist.

My brother and I have killed a couple dozen deer over the years with the 130 Sierra Pro Hunter. They work well and very accurate.

I've used the 110's (my rifle didn't like 90's) to shoot groundhogs since about 1977, they work great. I used the 130 boattails to kill quite a few deer, the bullets I recovered were usually separated but the deer died with no problems. I'm currently using Hornady flatbases but would use the Sierra's if some dropped in my lap.

Dale

Uh huh!!

jwall,

In some ways, like all gun writers at certain moments or on certain subjects, Bob Hagel was FOS.

One of the things he wrote in his book that was at least sometimes wrong was something very close to "when core and jacket separate, penetration soon ceases." I have seen a number of exceptions to this over the years. The first one occurred almost 40 years ago, when I put a 130-grain Sierra Game King .270 bullet into the left rear ribs of a mule deer buck as it bounced up the far side of am eastern Montana coulee, maybe 100 yards away. At the shot the buck collapsed and didn't move again.

When I skinned it that evening the jacket from the Sierra was just under the hide at the ENTRANCE hole. When I butchered the meat I found what was left of the core in the RIGHT SHOULDER. It had penetrated all the way through the chest cavity from the left rear ribs to the right shoulder, so obviously penetration did not soon cease.

Since then have seen the same thing with other cup-and-core bullets now and then, but have yet to find the core at the entrance hole with the jacket. When jackets and cores do separate with typical C&C big game bullets and anything is recovered, the vast majority of the time the jacket and core are lying together under the hide on the far side.

For a long time I was convinced by what Bob Hagel wrote that bullet separation was really bad, but eventually I realized the lead core is the large majority of a typical C&C bullet's weight. Before smokeless powder, hunters had been killing deer and other game for a long, long time with unjacketed lead bullets. Often the lead wasn't as hard the alloy typically found in C&C bullets, which usually runs around 4% antimony. So I quit worrying about it and started hunting deer and similar game with C&C bullets again, and found they worked great, often killing quicker than the super-bullets supposedly necessary for killing modern deer.

Oh, and if you look through GAME LOADS AND PRACTICAL BALLISTICS again, take particular note of the nice mule deer buck Hagel killed with a Sierra boattail pushed to pretty high velocity.

Okay, too much to edit so in general.
1 my results in testing were the same as BH.

2 I was wondering IF Sierra had improved their bullets since the 80s.

3 Given - the lead core is much heavier so...

4. Hadn't noticed OR remember the mulie and Sierra >>smile.

5 I haven't killed nearly as many animals as you or some others BUT 98% of mine have been with Hornadys. Over 100 WT.
I HONESTLY can say I never found ONE that separated. Some may have but exited IYKWIM.

THNX

Aside- I remember a GW that was FOS too. He wrote that the .260 R out performed the .270. We know how he stacked the deck to prove his point.

Hornady C&C's became better after they introduced the Interlock ring, but even before then they had a little better reputation than Sierras because they used a little harder core alloy.

I have seen some Hornadys separate, including a couple of pre-Interlocks, but always found the core with the jacket. One Interlock 117-grain boattail from a .257 Roberts failed to penetrate the big shoulder joint of a mule deer doe at about 100 yards. My cousin shot the deer with my rifle, and the doe stumbled a little and stood broadside, obviously leg-broken, so he shot again and the deer dropped.

The Interlock ring makes a difference but if you recover one there often isn't much shank left, since they often peel back to the ring. Have a 225 .338 recovered from a whitetail buck I shot in the late 80's that is a perfect mushroom, retaining 63% of its weight. It was only started at around 2700 fps and the range was 225 yards, but it didn't penetrate any better than the 130 Sierra that killed the mule deer. It also went into the last ribs on the left side and ended up in the right shoulder.

I like the Interlocks but also like the Sierras. Also like the way Speer Hot-Cors act on game but they sometimes don't shoot as well as Hornadys or Sierras. Have used a bunch of Core-Lokts and Power Points too, with overall good results.

The only C&C's I can recall in many years of shooting them into deer (or seeing them shot into deer, as when I was with my cousin) that absolutely failed to penetrate were a 150-grain Silvertip from a .30-06 that failed to get through the shoulder joint on a forkhorn mule deer at about 200 yards, a 150-grain .30-30 Federal factory load that failed in the same way on a whitetail doe at about 125 yards, and the 117 Hornady Interlock Spire point that didn't get through the shoulder on my cousin's doe. That's out of hundreds of deer and deer-sized animals shot. That's a pretty small failure rate.

Yes it's a small %.

I've been fortunate according to 'some' per the core lokts. I guess I got lucky in the particular lot # or something. I have a few hundred 270 - 130s and they are stouter than the H 130. I get smaller exit wounds, yet sufficient internal damage.

I also discovered from YOU that I've been running the Speer H C over the designed velocities. Okay, I just got a bullet that works at MY speed.

THNX for taking the time for this discussion. I'll ease up on criticizing S & S. <G>

That's gold!!

Nicely written John. I appreciate the honesty and experience based wisdom in this. I've also seen core separation from the heavy .338 sierra GK pushed at a modest velocity of 2600 fps out of my win mag. I've also seen that core penetrate elk collar bone/shoulder bones and still exit the off side. The jacket usually ends up at the off side hide and the elk have been "DRT". As far as using a 270/130 gk on deer, hell yeah I would. I've loaded some up for my friend this year for his buck hunt. I expect them to work just fine

Bullets don't kill animals. Holes do. It doesn't matter if the hole was caused by a bullet with the core still fused to the jacket, or a core sailing through on its own.

I loaded a variety of deer hunting ammunition for my father over the years. He could do it quite well himself, he taught me how after all, but I enjoyed it.

He used to get a lot of trips and invites to deer camps from salesmen in the oil & gas business, and he killed a bunch of deer with one shot each using Sierras I loaded. Early soft ballistic tips too. No muss, no fuss.

I have tested lots and lots of bullets as well myself. The one thing I've seen with the Pro-hunters and Game-kings I've tested is that they tend to open flatter-faced than Interlocks and Hot-Cors, both of which get rounder which suggests softer to me.



This is a typical test (with 35 caliber bullets).

Sierra is pretty open about their alloy variances in different bullet models. Some are pretty hard. The 7mm 170 RN (Pro-hunter) and the 300 .429 and .451 bullets are two examples of their hardest alloys. If you try to test them you might see where that goes.





These are 45s shot out of a 5.5" Redhawk.



This is the recovered bullet - 250 Game-king- I fired from my 340. It struck this bull at around 210 yards and tipped him right over. The bullet remains seemed very intact until I scrubbed the tissue off the bullet. It is obvious that the core was "feeding" out of the jacket. However, it's difficult to ignore what the bullet did in the process.



I don't have any illusions about any cup and core - including even Grand Slams being the best choice when attempting to target really big bone. There are better. And it pays to do more homework when using cup and cores as animal size increases. But Sierra makes good hunting bullets. Those who suggest that they are junk are likely unwittingly tattling on their own defects in application. That said, I surely wouldn't choose a Sierra (or Interlock, Speer, Core-lokt, Power-point, etc) for an expensive trip to hunt big bears, moose, etc, (though I would have no problem using them on lighter game such as caribou, black bear, deer, etc.)

Good post Klik.

Mornin Mate -

In this discussion, 'bullets' make the holes that kill.

I respectfully DISagree with your latter statement. Sometimes it makes A BIG DIFFERENCE when the jacket/core separate.

Sometimes that separation causes big meat damage.

Sometimes that separation allows the animal to live long enuff to make a lot of tracks.

Sometimes that separation allows the animal to 'SUFFER' a long time.

et.al.

Yes it makes a diff.

Mornin Klik -

THNX for the post and illustrations.

First off, I based (past tense) my decisions on a lot of testing BEFORE I got Hagel's book. Because of BOTH I chose to not buy nor hunt Sierra's.

ALSO my testing was limited to ONLY 2 cartridges -- that also enters the picture since 'larger' cal. bullets were NOT made the same.



Totally AGREE.

I have PREMIUM bullets for ANY rifle/cart. I might use for any game larger than WT deer.

THNX AGAIN


Also when my part of this discussion began I quoted you ONLY to show my experience was different AND I stated I had not hunted w/them because of the testing.

I have used the 130 Game Kings a bit on deer and antelope. My experiance suggests shots inside 200 yards with 3100 fps velocity the bullets performance either explodes inside the deer for quick kills, but has trouble breaking bones or they exit with large holes and lots of blood shot meat. Beyond 200 they do better. Complete penetration with smaller exits holes. These are all broadside shots.

They are the most accurate bullet I have yet put through my 270. One reason I still take them antelope hunting.

Klik,

I have heard different things about core hardness in Sierras from different Sierra employees--and one even told me their core alloys were essentially classified. However, one of the things I've started working on is using a lead hardness tester on bullet cores to get at least a general I idea of what's up. I'm using a Saeco, and just cut bullets in two, testing them just like a cast bullet. Haven't gotten very far at this point but it seems to work. Hope to publish an article one of these days....

On a side note, an outfitter I know in eastern Montana who totally guides for pronghorns and deer HATES premium bullets. He says he's had to track down far too many animals, especially big whitetail bucks, shot with various premiums, including Nosler Partitions and Barnes X's. His favorite bullets, and what he recommends to clients, are Sierras.

If I had to claim just one non magnum bullet/caliber/round as the most efficient deer killer from my experience it would be the 30.06 with 150gr Sierra. Loading is simple too, just fill a case with any brand of 4350 and seat a bullet.

Perhaps I overstated things in regard to core alloys Sierra uses. However, in reading the info about their bullets and the design features and differences in the front of (some of their) manuals, they do specify such things as numbers of alloys, as well as antimony percentages used in some specific bullets. It probably isn't too difficult, by testing against some of the knowns, to get a pretty good idea what some of their similar types have for core alloys.

While my experiences with Sierra bullets on big game is limited to just a few moose, a bear, and some caribou, and mostly with heavier bullets and heavier calibers, I have also noticed that Sierra uses alloy variances in their small stuff too, to meet design needs. I discovered, for example, that they seem to use a harder alloy in the standard 45 grain .224 Varminter spitzer SP. While I'm sure it probably becomes a varmint vaporizer when pushed along by a 22-250, it gives nicely controlled expansion in something like a Hornet or Bee which helps to prevent the destructive loss of edibles in small game like rabbits or hares when a head shot strays a bit low. Their 40 HP or other 40 or 45 grain bullets are generally more inclined to obliterate whole front ends with "low head" shots.

I don't think you overstated anything. Instead I suspect Sierra perhaps decided to experiment more with lead alloys and thus not be so forthcoming. I know other companies sometimes change the lead alloys in their cores to tweak on-game performance.

All of which is why it's not valid to judge a certain brand and type of bullet's performance from a few examples from one cartridge--something a lot of hunters do, as in "Those Sierra GameKings are a POS, because my brother-in-law once shot a deer and blah blah blah."

90% of the time when people recover a cup and core bullet from an animal the cup and core are together and don't fall apart until they are removed from the critter. On the bullets trip through the animal after the bullet starts mushrooming the core is tearing a hole through the animal with the 'separated' jacket pushing on the backside of the core. Even though the core and jacket may fall apart after the bullet is stopped they are essentially still one unit on the trip through the animal. Core separation doesn't mean bullet failure to me.

Mule Deer AND Klikitarik --

My Personal THANK YOU to BOTH of you for your Personal Experience in this subject.

The ONLY reason I did not hunt the Sierra's was the results from my own testing.

I had noticed from OTHERS that the 'game performance' was different from my testing.

I really appreciate your (plural) responses and ATTITUDES. With proven experience and an instructional attitude it helps US to have a better understanding.


Jerry

Not sure what it is you disagree with Jerry.

I said it doesn't matter what caused the hole, or doesn't matter whether the hole was caused by a core and jacket together or one that was separated.

I never said it doesn't matter whether the core and jacket separate. I said it doesn't matter what caused the hole.

I am not trying to stir you up mate but you have read something into my statement that was neither said or implied.

You may well be right that sometimes it makes a big difference if the core and jacket part ways. I would agree with you in some instances. But you disagreed with something that you seem to think I said but didn't.

I don't pretend to be an expert Jerry, I certainly am not. I am just saying there is a variety of ways to get the job done and they don't all involve 75% or better weight retention or a buck fifty a bullet like most of the premiums cost here.

Kind regards.

- Bob

:)Well in 'AmeriCAN' that means the core-jacket separated.

Maybe it looses something in translation?

Agreed there is NO reason to get panties wadded.

Your Mate across the pond. Jerry

The only big game I've used sierras on were whitetails with a .270 and 130gr pro hunters back in the 90's. I shot 8 or 10 with that bullet. It killed them fine, in fact I got four or five bang-flops with only rib-lung shots. However there were few exits, and the wounds were shall we say, dramatic. I never recovered anything I could call a bullet, only flakes and fragments. I should add though that my shots were all between 50 and 150 yards.

I ended up moving on to interlocks and then partitions, deciding that I liked more consistent penetration than the sierras were giving me. They were super accurate though, and to me are a benchmark of whether a rifle is a shooter or not. I think they would likely work fine in something mid-velocity like a .30-40, .30-30, or .303 but I don't care to use them in anything like a .270 again, simply because I've grown to used to being able to shoot critters at a greater variety of angles than what the Sierras seem to allow. In short, I like and shoot them but don't hunt with them anymore.

Well I have very thin amount of game shooting experience with the 130 gr Sierra in the 270. Back in the day I had a Model 70 Winchester XTR so chambered. It shot them pretty good, so I used them for a season or two of deer control shooting on a tree farm. I was not to particular about it for that purpose. For some reason I started shooting a 130 gr Speer SP. and for a cheap bullet it when with the 270 like ham and eggs. Its a funny thing about bullet failure, you have to first collect the bullet in order to see the failure, that means you either dig one out of meat, you collected your game or out of the dirt at the range. Well dirt is not meat. All most any bullet is going to do ok on White Tail, they are not that heavy skinned or boned. So bullets do more damage than others. Just don't shoot them in the eatable parts.

Your results WERE what I expected.

You came to the SAME conclusion I did.

Am always amazed by the people who use C&C bullets at 3000+ fps for "woods hunting," and then are dissatisfied by the results.

Of course, this was somewhat encouraged by some gun writers from the 1960's onward for 25-30 years, because they suddenly discovered such technical terms as "ballistic coefficient" and kinetic energy," and never ceased to point out that velocity had more effect on muzzle energy than bullet weight.

But other gun writers, who actually shot big game, had long emphasized heavier bullets and moderate velocities when using C&C bullets at woods ranges. Elmer Keith was the truth-teller here, though his insistence on .33+ calibers turned off some hunters. Even Elmer, however, recognized how well the 7x57 worked with 160-grain Sierras at 2700 fps or so. He used to handload them for Don Hopkins and his wife, who used them for many years in Africa on smaller plains game with perfect satisfaction. I've used the same basic load both in Africa and here in Montana on the same sort of game, and it works great.

If I were going to use a .270 with Sierras on Pennsylvania whitetails at woods ranges I'd load 150's to 2800-2850 and never worry about. In fact I've used a load very much like that with not just Sierras but the pre-Interlock Hornady Spire Points and Winchester Power Points to take a bunch of deer from right off the muzzle to several hundred yards with fine results.

Understood, however I NEVER shot 1 Sierra bullet AT game.
My testing turned me in another direction.

Yes I've done my share of woods hunting but MORE in/over longer distances, such as power/gas lines and cutovers.

I'm more mellow now, but I don't regret my choice of bullets.

130gr Sierras were the most accurate bullet in my 270 back in '83, so that is what I hunted. Never had one exit. Lungs and hearts turned to mush. I did have one fail to penetrate a shoulder at woods range, so my recommendation with Sierras is to keep them in the ribcage and away from bones and heavy muscle on the entrance side. It doesn't take a tough bullet to penetrate the ribcage and turn the lungs to mush, and Sierras have a reputation for accuracy, so as long as you wait for broadside shots and keep them in the ribcage, you're eating venison.

These days I go for bone to drop the animal on the spot, so I no longer hunt with Sierras. My aim isn't always perfect either so I prefer my bullets a bit tougher. I've been out of the 270 business for a long time, but I have a new Forbes 24B that might change that if it doesn't sell before hunting season. That rifle shoots so well it's boring.

But Muledeer, I was an adolescent moron who considered himself a genius back in the '90s. And I knew bullets wouldn't work unless they were going at least 3000fps. I hate to admit it, but at the time I actually stressed at the thought of getting less than 2700 fps from anything. The other thing going for me was I had read way too much Jack O.

Now I've come full circle and own and use more moderate velocity rounds much more.

It's always interesting to hear about others results. In all the deer we've shot with the Pro Hunters, we've yet to recover one, all were pass throughs with shots behind the shoulder. One year my brother hit bone and they they skinned it he said you could just about stick your fist in the exit.

One of the areas I hunt is the edge of cedar swamps and in the edge where a 60 yard shot would be stretching it. Years ago I ended up giving up my 270 for that area and bought a 358 Win in the BLR.

pabucktail,

In the 1970's I had a friend from eastern Montana who loaded the 130 GameKing in his .270 and really liked it. Then he went elk hunting for the first time, and in those days most elk were found in timber. Got a chance at a 5-point bull at maybe 50 yards and shot it several times before it stayed down. Luckily he could shoot fast! I told him a 150 Partition would have worked a lot better....

Wasn't that about the time when you were using 200 grain partitions in your '06 for elk in the timber?

The heart of the matter....

These will be the same people who tell you the 270 doesn't kill worth a hoot. Generally, as a Partition shooter I am mystified by these "problems".

Yeah, it was around that time--though I used the .270 before getting my first .30-06, and had a problem with a new "premium" 150-grain bullet that actually turned out to be a glorified C&C. I'd bought a box of 'em because several gun writers had "reviewed" them, saying they'd work really well due to some special features, and down at the local store they were a little cheaper than Nosler Partitions. Got an angling-away shot at angling cow elk at maybe 75 yards, a shot I'd used on a lot of deer. She never stopped and never bled, and there wasn't any snow on the ground. Finally found her dead a day later, the meat soured, half a mile up the mountain.

Bought my first Nosler Partitions before the next season, the old model with the relief groove, and used them in both the .270 and .30-06. Never had any problem with any Partition in either cartridge since, though the design has changed considerably.

I don't see them as likely to hit the same place or have the same size groups, so don't see much good practicing with a substitute round.

As a side benefit, it will provide you with some once fired cases that you can reload with a bullet you like.

I shot 130 Sierra flat base for awhile in the 1970's they were quick killers on small bodied Texas deer, if you're not fussy about the big holes they sometimes make.

When I shared the results of my use of the 140 VLD out of the .264 Winchester on a 6X6 with a few friends and how it was the quickest, cleanest kill I had ever witnessed, one of them replied to me something along these lines:

"I have had the same results with the 130 Sierra out of my 270"

He's killed something in the neighborhood of 25 Bulls that never took another step.

You know him John.

I've killed enough deer with the 130 Sierra PHs and GKs to have formed a rock-solid opinion on 'em. I like 'em, and I use 'em, and they've worked for me. Some bullets have worked better than others at times, usually due to placement, though, and not what happens afterwards. Farm country deer aren't the same as a moose in a bog someplace up North, of course, and I offer no opinions on THAT, but for a farm deer, it would be hard to find anything better.
I've had some GKs go to hell, probably because I was closer than they're designed for, but I can't blame that on the bullet, can I? I've had GKs go to hell when hitting down the spine, too, but they weren't made for that, either.

I use PHs now, because I got into a bunch of them at a good price, and frankly, they kill a bit quicker than the Gamekings. Then again, maybe I've killed more animals now, and I'm not so frantic about killing as I used to be, and take better shots (or don't take a shot at all).
Shoot, they all work, if you put 'em in the right place, or don't, if you don't do your own part.

Rick,

Amazing how putting a bullet that tears up innards in the right place kills animals quickly!

I have a friend who's killed, uh, more than one elk with the 100-grain Ballistic Tip from a .25-06. He puts 'em in the slats and the elk fall over. Of course, he lives and hunts in very open country, not thick timber where according to some elk must be shot up the wazoo.

I did some wet newspaper testing on some bullets including the 270 cal 90g Sierra that I mentioned in an earlier post. Rather than explode on impact, the bullet penetrated about 3 inches before it started to expand at all, while the other regular 130g bullets started to expand much sooner.

Granted, the 90g HP once it did start to expand, completely flew apart within the next 3 inches. But on medium game shot in that rib area, its no surprise those little Sierras punch above their weight. Talk about turning innards to mush...

Interesting. That's exactly how Berger VLD's act when they hit something.

Mule Deer, it was a simple, dinky fun experiment. But here are the photos of the six 270 bullets all fired into the same bundle.

Top row left to right are 90g Sierra HP, 130g Hornady Interlock, 130g Hot Cor, second row 130g Nosler BT, 150g SST, 160g Partition.

First photo, 0.25 inches penetration.


1 inch


2 inches


3 inches


4 inches


5 inches


5.5 inches
[img]http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh543/bobnoble17/IMG-20120804-01544-1.jpg[/img]

The little 90 didn't go much further than that. But even though it was only a one-off, it was a strange (I thought) and interesting result. Impact speed from memory was about 3400fps.

They are also very accurate in my rifle so its all good, though I generally use the heavier ones. I have found the 90 grainers great for taking people shooting who don't do it much and might be put off by recoil.

I recall two bullet "failures" , but I collected both deer. First was about an eighty yard shot, with a .243. 100 Sierra BT stoked with the Carmichial load (100 grains, 42 grains IMR 4350 for about 3000 fps). A large bodied river bottom WT buck was facing me -he was actually standing at a fence surveying a wheat field. I was in a fence line where I could see both the field and the brush- at about a 60 degree angle. I needed to hit the shoulder to,get the bullet into the boiler. DRT. Field dressing revealed no damage to the heart/lung/arteries. I butchered that deer myself. The bullet had come apart into lots of pieces after hitting the shoulder blade. A good sized piece of the core had angled up and servered the spinal cord.

The other was a 180 grain Hornaday interlock .30-06. The load was a Light Magnun factory load advertised at 2880 from a .22" barrel. My delightful custom stocked '50s 24" commercial Mauser throws them at just over 2900 over a friend's Chrony. The shot was a Texas heart shot at about 200 yards, to prevent a mule deer buck from escaping over a ridge. The shot broke down the deer's back legs, requiring a quick neck shot to end it all. Because it was a long way to the nearest two track, I field dressed and boned out the carcus on a nice flat rock that was handy, while my hunting partner went for a container. I found that the pelvis and the bullet were shattered, I mean little bitty pierces of cup and core.

Actions: I switched to 100 grain Partitions for the .243. I had made a sizeable purchase of the LM Interbond 180, and I still have about a box and a half some ten years later. The rifle likes that loading, and the results of that shot were predictable. Since my annual use is fire a shot to check the scope, maybe a deer, and several shots for coyote, porcupine, and other varmints of chance, I may have to buy bullets again in a year or so. Or just use another rifle?

Really, neither bullet failed, since I collected both bucks. The bullets did not work as advertised. In each instance, a slower load might have produced different results. Yes, I succumbed to the 3000 fps syndrome some years ago. There is hope. I think I have just sold my last magnum. Just waiting to see some money. Jack

Interesting about the Interlock. They are pretty good bullets but not quite as good as some people believe.

Over 20 years ago I agreed to handload .30-06 ammo for a friend, after he agreed to let me work up the loads in his rifle. He was mainly interested in an elk load and asked what bullets to buy. I said there were a lot of good ones, but it was hard to beat 180-grain Nosler Partitions, and they were available at just about any sporting goods store. I also told him to pick up a pound of IMR4350, since that would work and wasn't hard to find either. (This was even before the first political ammo and component shortage, the 1994 panic over the assault rifle ban.)

He came back a week or so later with a pound of IMR4350 and a box of 180-grain Interlock Spire Points. I asked him why he didn't get Partitions like I suggested. He said the clerk at the store claimed the Interlocks were just as good, but cost half as much.

Now, Eileen and I have killed several pickup loads of game with Interlocks in various sizes. Offhand I can remember the 100-grain .25, 130 and 150 .270, 139 7mm, 165 .30, 225 .338 and 250 .35. But they are NOT Partitions, and I could give a long list of field examples. Your experience with the buck is another.

I worked up a load for him and loaded a couple of boxes of ammo, but he never shot an elk with one. In fact I don't think he's ever shot an elk.

Thanks for an honest post.

I will differ only in the assessment that the 243 bullet did not "fail" because you got the buck. IMO, it certainly DID fail because it did not accomplish the task you assigned to it even though you got the deer.....any bullet incapable of penetrating the shoulder to reach vitals on a quartering-on shot is not a suitable hunting bullet. In the case of the 243 bullet you got lucky and one small part of the bullet ( only by chance )
found a piece of spinal cord.

I don't call this "predictable results", the kind you can count on in a variety of hunting situations. This is a PERFECT example of how a bullet can "fail", and yet end up with a dead animal on the ground. Why? Because the results are not consistent, nor repeatable.

In the case of he 180 gr Hornady, I could cite examples of similar hits on elk (not deer, a bunch bigger and heavier boned),where the pelvic structure was shattered broadside by a 165 gr Partition fired from a 30/06 that penetrated completely and exited....or the 140 gr Partition from a 7 mag, also used to prevent a wounded buck from escaping, that had to be shot from behind, angling away, the bullet breaking the pelvis, and exiting through the meat of the offside shoulder.

The only factors that allowed those bullets to perform those tasks were the bullet construction; not ft pounds of energy, nor wind drift resistance, nor 1/2" grouping ability, nor any other obscure ballistic factors......it was due to bullet construction.

In your case, it points out that the bullets were clearly not up to the job, even though you got the deer.....at least, they failed to provide the kind of very consistent performance that lets you know in advance, before the hammer drops, exactly what is going to happen when the bullet lands.

Broadside shots through ribs into the vitals(where the hide is thin, and ribs are easily penetrated),is a test of virtually nothing even on such larger ungulates as moose and elk, because harder angles and shoulder bones are part of the reality of shooting BG animals, from deer sized on up...ad if a bullet is incapable of penetrating to the vitals through the tougher going of hard angles and heavy bones, it is an unsuitable hunting bullet IMHO.

And speed is not the culprit...bullet construction is....and as speed goes up we should have enough common sense to pay attention to bullet construction, or some other factor, to ensure that we will get adequate penetration to accomplish what we need under the worst scenario; not the "best".

Having seen enough of these kinds of snafus, this the reason that I won't use any old C&C bullet, even on deer sized game, for the broad range of hunting conditions.....regardless of its' other characteristics

Seems to me there are two things a BG hunter should "know" when the hammer falls....the first is where the bullet landed(because he "called" his shot).

The second is, that the bullet, or its exit, will be at the end of the wound channel through the vitals, in a straight line, from its' intended POI, even if it has to travel some distance or break heavy bone at some point along the way.

If a bullet is not capable of doing this reliably (95% of the time)at ANY reasonable distance, use it to shoot at gongs or paper, but leave it home come hunting season. I don't care how big or little the game is.

End of rant.

Bob,

I sometimes think I must be a "five-per-center".

Perhaps you recognize this bullet design:



(from a modest-sized caribou, shoulder)

or this even more highly touted...and expensive, 250 grain "premium":



from a moose shoulder.

My own opinion of Interlocks is that they and Core-lokts are 50:50. IOW, they can be very good, but sometimes not. I never have really figured out why some people love one and hate the other. Expecting to ETE a deer, starting at the pelvis does seem like a high expectation for any cup and core though. For that reason, I blame the bullet inserter more than the bullet. You never err in understanding the limits of the bullet, regardless the construction.

Klik they all have limits ....but looks to me like those two need an upgrade.

I TOTALLY agree with BobNH.

Killing an animal is NOT their complete task.

You may kill it and NOT recover it. ( I know you said you did)

If bullets do AS YOU DESCRIBE they can't be counted on to perform their task FROM more than 1 impact place (ribs-lungs).

I will not limit myself to using a bullet that can do ONLY that.

Now on WT deer I've never used ANY premium. There ARE c/c bullets that WILL penetrate and hold together from MOST any angle.

I AIN'T ranting... just trying to emphasize there are GOOD c/c bullets and BAD c/c bullets.

AN ADDENDUM:

I don't AIM for the Texas Heart Shot!!! NEVER!! I would not ASK nor count on ANY c/c to bust the pelvic bone and then penetrate very much.

There was ONLY ONE TIME that I had 'somewhat' of a gut shot. I had shot a deer, don't remember buck or doe, 1/4ing to me and in the penetration toward exiting the bullet NICKED the forward edge of the stomach. It wasn't a large explosion, just clipped the stomach. That was BAD ENUFF when cleaning but the c/c bullet DID EXIT, a nice size exit hole. ( I can tell you what bullet if UR interested)

Remember NO premiums. The only bullet failures I've had on game, were 1 130 gr 270 and a FEW 180 gr. in 300 WM. With the 300 I shot more than a couple JUST TO SEE if those were flukes. Nope, I'd have to count from my records but those were in 08 and 09. ( ALL of those, both cal.s were the SAME brand)

Before 2010 I changed bullets - no prem - and the results changed. Same gun, same load, same vel. and the same 'general' hunting ranges.

I suppose the devil made me say it. Both bullets did fail. I just got lucky. On the Interlock, my original supply amounted to some dozen or maybe more boxes of the LMs. I bought a couple initially and went back for more after establishing the rifle liked them. At that time of my life, time and space to reload was at a premium All other times they had acted properly, but if I stay with the replacement Superformance, I will go Interbond, likely in a 165, or roll my own with Partitions. Bullets are the cheapest part of the hunt. The fuel to get to invited hunts is more.

I agree we should know where the bullet is going and how it is going to act before we turn it loose. First the aim was good. Secondly, everything had been good up until then. On the easier broad side shots or slight angles, I usually got pass through or found the bullet under the skin on the off side. Jack

10-4 Jack.

I've been getting hay stored for the Winter so I've been in/out today.

I should make one thing perfectly clear.

IF I was (were) going to make a hunting trip out of State - WT - MD - Elk etc. I would USE PREMIUM bullets. I have N Partitions for any rifle I'd take. I know some don't consider NPs as premium but I do.

As much as I like and have confidence in H Ils for LOCAL WT hunting, I would not hesitate to use bullets of PROVEN performance on all manner of game.

Jerry

cze..,

Dad started using Sierra 130gr BTS in the 50's. I use them to this day. Honestly, I can't even guess how many white tail deer have fallen to our .270's. Yeah, after 60 some years of experience, I'd say they work.

O

Too bad more couldn't grasp that concept. Well said/good thread.