I'm putting a load together for my 300 winmag. I'm using h100v and 4831sc. Is a magnum primer required?

not required, but optional. try it both ways.

edit: mag primer probably will make more of a difference with the hybrid powder, which is a temp-sensitive ball powder.

A load engineer from Federal once told me if your powder charge is below 80 grains, try it first with the non-magnum primer and see what happens. I did and it worked, in my 300 Win, H&H, 338 and 375, I get more consistent accuracy with non-magnum primers. Years ago I bought a bunch of primed Fed brass in 338 and it came with 210s.

Are magnum primers generally used for large +80gr loads or slow powders?

I use magnum primers with ball powders in just about any size case.I experiment with different primers just to see what gives me my best accuracy.I have found that using a CCI mag primer with H4831 SC in a 270 with 140 gr Bergers gives me super accurate groups,top MV and low SD.But that is in one particular rifle.Trying different things is kind of what loonies do!!!!

I use what ever the load call for the cartridge I am loading for. I will tell you that I been known to use the Federal 215 primer in all my ammo if I am going to be hunting in extreme cold. Sub Zero temps. In hot temps I make modifications to keep pressures with in reason. I am most concerned with reliable feeding extraction rather than the last 1/4 inch in Accuracy or that last 50 fps in velocity. Most of the time, you would not even notice the difference. I tend to do things more for piece of mind than anything else. Then again when you have 800 dollars rapped up with and elk tag for the late season you tend to split hairs. These days with shortages of ammo loaded or components to load ammo, using what ever you can find a buy makes sense. I like federal 210's and 215's but if all I can get is Remington's Winchesters or CCI's I would not loose any sleep over it.

Must admit that I have never used H100v in a 300WM, IMO it is a bit fast burning unless you are shooting 150's. I shot 165's with H4831 for years with Fed 210's.
With 180's my powder of choice has always been RL22 with Fed215's.
In my current 300WM my favorite load is 210VLD's with H1000 and Fed 215's

Give us a bit more info on the bullet,primer, powder combo

I light off 83 grains of H 1000 with a large rifle primer and it is more accurate than using a mag primer.. and haven't had an ignition issue down into the 20 degrees range...

Of what combo do you speak of ???

I used with great success accuracy wise the F210 primer with the 180 Barnes TSX and RL22 in my 300 Win Mag. I am currently using Ramshot Magnum and the Barnes 200 LRX and the F215 primer.

I would try them both if you have the luxury. I have a 270 Win that shoots great with mag primers and Magpro in heavier bullets. Couldn't get that rifle to shoot good groups with 150's in any factory or handloaded ammo. ( 1 1/2 - 3 inch). Mag primers made 5/8 - 1 inch groups normal. Same powder, RL22, and 200 grain Accubonds in a Tikka 30-06 shot 1/2 - 3/4 groups with standards? They all like what they like.

Good luck.

I have had magnum primers make a difference in velocity variation, and accuracy, when using RL22 in the 270 Winchester.

Messing with standard primers in magnum hulls is something I have never done since I figure the ammo makers know better than me what ignites large doses of slow burning powders in magnum hulls, so see no need to mess with success.

Bob: Federal uses 210s I know for a fact in the 338 Win Mag. I can tell you the 210s work MUCH better in my 338 and 375 than magnum primers

jorg I will take you word for it....

Have never tried a standard primer in a magnum case so don't really know ...... except for the very old days when WW made just one primer, the old 8 1/2-120,which was pretty potent I guess. But since then I have used only WW mags and the Fed215.

Boatanchor,
I pulled this data straight from Hodgdon's site:



180 GR. NOS E-TIP Hodgdon Hybrid 100V .308" 3.340" 58.9 2679 47,700 PSI 66.0 2941 60,800 PSI

Bob: It works sir. The results in accuracy improvement were particularly dramatic in the 338, also the fact Federal Factory ammo is loaded with 210s supports this.

Me too Bob I use 215's in all magnum cases that I load for and have no accuracy issues

jorg I didn't know that either...

I must not be paying attention.

I use standard 210 match primers with 85grs of H4831sc with no problems. Was told many years ago that magnum primers aren't needed till the temp goes below 20 degrees

"Was told many years ago that magnum primers aren't needed till the temp goes below 20 degrees"

Around here, that'll be next week

Well gemby that's a new one on me as well; maybe it's true but, shooting below 20 degrees F is a pretty routine matter for me since I shoot more in winter than summer, and about every year I will see below those temps in the east or west during hunting seasons..... my biggest Canadian whitetail was killed at -25 F after I had been out in that stuff all day.

I like to set rifles up to work under any conceivable condition but I am sorta anal anyway.

It gets -20 below where you live, I'll stay in pa, good luck with that. I have 37 magnum rifles and not one magnum primer in the house. You relaying what I was told, don't kill the messenger

I would take a guess that standard vs mag is not as critical or varied in cases with larger bore vs capacity cases. The more overbore or what ever term you prefer also suits faster powders compared to the large capacity/smaller bore situations. Just a thought?

I've read all of this thread so far..

I haven't posted BECAUSE I haven't bought primers in a long time. ALL my testing is 80's vintage..so take that into consideration.



SAME HERE except I've not tried the 215s.

Bob - the last primer testing I did was AFTER WW brought out their LRMP. I tested/compared the older WW 8 1/2-120 against their WW LRMP******** there was NO DIFFERRENCE over the graph OR on paper. I have BOTH and use 'em.


NOW I don't have any idea what the NEWER primes are doing. I've noticed that WW primers are brass colored..ALL mine are silver.



Back in the 'olden' days of 70-80s I read more than once to use Mag primers with 'ball' powders OR charges 'over 60 grs.'

I heard this as well. I did quite a bit of testing this theory. I'm saddled with the fact most of my load development and testing is in our very moderate weather, except for heat. I carried my chronograph several times to both Montana and Wyoming prior to late season elk hunts. In ALL cases I had better accuracy and similar velocity with the use of 210M primers vs 215M's. This was mostly with 338 Win Mags, but also 300 Win Mag. In one series of tests with a 700STW not only was there slightly better accuracy with the 210M's, but I actually got a few more FPS out of them. Used Ramshot Magnum in the STW.

In fact, there truly was not that much difference in accuracy and if loads with 215's were all that was available, I'd never would have questioned the loads. I was also testing powders and I'd guess that could make a difference. I did lose considerable velocity with RL22 but with Ramshot Magnum in the STW and the Hodgdon powders in the 338's and 300's, no velocity loss. Very little loss with N160, which was better than N560 for holding velocity in the cold. The 'warmest' it was while testing was 12�. Most of the other times it was zero or below. Never a miss fire or hang fire.

Thnx Bob -

Good to hear results of more recent testing.

Again I'm re-thinking using R 22..

calikooknic: Sure....I would think there's a difference between igniting 65 or so grains of RL15 in a 338 WM,and igniting a charge of H1000 in a 7 Rem Mag or 264,cases with similar capacity but vastly different bore diameters. And I would think there is a difference in igniting those charges at -20F vs 70+F (except in PA.,where it never gets that cold ...and maybe that is the reason that lab technicians and ammo manufacturers (who have access to pressure testing equipment and manufacture ammo that will be used in a variety of rifles and conditions, virtually across the globe....in a word, "professionals") might have selected a standard primer over a magnum primer for that particular load.


And maybe why, in order to reliably ignite large doses of slow burning powder in ,say, a 300 Weatherby magnum at optimum speed, and in order to NOT lose velocity) Federal invented the Fed 215 primer.....and WW followed suit with their LRMP, and on it goes.

But I don't know....I am not a ballistician.....and as far as I know, neither is anyone who has posted an opinion here.

Could it be, they know something we don't?

But what could these people possibly know about such stuff?....they are just professionals and since the collective wisdom of the CF seems to be that there is no difference between standard primers and magnum primers....then why the hell did these companies make magnum primers for,in the first place?

I mean they should have logged in here to get the "real" scoop....after all, we have all the info, professional knowledge and equipment to make these determinations ourselves........right?

I couldn't qualify a single soul on here who has run all these exhaustive "tests" themselves as an expert on the matter in a courtroom...

Courts like the truth, and not backyard experiments,and self-ordained experts,which are the same value as home entertainment.

And, even though I did not shoot any messengers, merely expressed a viewpoint, all I can say is, if you own 37 magnum rifles....and not a single magnum primer....well....

No comment.

Bullet weight ?

178gr Hornady A-Max in a 300 wby

Here's an article written by Allan Jones of CCI. I've posted this elsewhere. He states that in 1989 CCI re-formulated the mixture for the 250 primer to burn hotter for use with ball powders. Previously the 250 merely used more of the same mixture used in that company's 200 primer.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/

Good thing we cleared up that "professionals" bullsh!t stuff.

Never loaded a standard primer in my 300WB, but may have to give it a go and see what happens.
Maybe the collective here at the fire knows sumthin after all?

I didn't think it was the Win mag but thought maybe you were using real light bullets.

That certainly validates my experiences. One of my nest 375 H&H loads uses 76gr of H-414 and I get best results when using F-215 primers. In turn when I load 74gr of RL-15 I get better results with F-210s than with 215s...

JUST TO BE SPECIFIC or for clarity:

I was saying ONLY that there was no diff between the WW 8 1/2 and the NEWER WW LRMP.

such as:



You'll notice that BOTH primers at that time were silver colored.

I've noticed that the newer WW primers are brass colored. ?? don't know if that makes any diff.

How do ya like that price tag? $1.99 / 100 and they were cheaper by the brick.


**********************************

BACK in the 80s I decided to use ONLY Win primers > again based on MY testing.

I have another quote to post following this and another ??

THNX - That was AFTER I did my testing and I haven't used any other primers since.

Has anyone tested the newer CCI 250s vs 200s?

Has anyone tested the newer WW standard vs. magnum primers?

Jorge - I'm being polite and not critical.

IMO that does not validate your experience BECAUSE that was CCI primers. You are using Federal primers.

IMO that's apples -- oranges.

Just my thots.

IT validates the employment of magnum v non-magnum primers...

Nope 178grA-Max, they are smoking coming out of a 28" barrel

Again - IMO - it's only VALID with YOUR primers. It does not stand up as a rule across the board.

Why I say that is, I've tested WW, Rem, & CCI primers both standard - magnum and THEY ARE NOT PARRALLEL.

upper case for emphasis ONLY.

300 win mag 81 grains of H-1000 Federal 215 primer behind 180 grain TSX

300 yard five shot groups







I have failed to see a problem with the mag primers

There ARE no problems with mag primers. I was just relating what the Federal Engineer said and in my 375 and 338 with extruded powders, the accuracy improved with the 210s over the 215s. With my H-414 load in the 375, the 215s worked best. I don't know what the confusion is here.

Of course they are not parallel if by parallel you mean equal. My preceding post was my observation and validation of what the Fed Engineer said.

The most ridiculous yet funny thing I have read in a long time

Sarcasm is sure hard to read!!!!

Some people take this [bleep] too serious.

This makes sense.

I never paid much attention until a few years back when a friend called and said he had been chronographing a bunch of ammo loaded with RL22 and 130's in the 270. Rifle was a Ruger M77. He noted that at low velocities it seemed to shoot fine....but when he got near typical 270 velocities (over 3000-3100 fps),accuracy went to hell; and the velocities were jumping around varying 30-40 fps.

I was stumped but asked about the primer and he said it was a CCI standard....thinking it would not matter, I suggested trying a Fed 215 and attended the next shooting session. The change was dramatic in velocity variation....and accuracy....the rifle became a drill with RL22 and the 215. I have never seen a primer make as big a difference.

Curious, I dug around and discovered that the Old Boys like JOC shot those heavy charges of H4831 with CCI250's in the 270 Win...Mmmm.

I don't make a habit of using mag primers in standard cases, but I do when I load RL22 in the 270 Winchester.

BobNH -

YEP but I'd like to make 1 observation

CCI didn't change the mixture in the 250 primer till 1989. Post -JOC writing.

OTOH - it was in the 70-80s I was reading everything I could get my hands on per loading.

My GO-TO 270 load became 62grs 4831 (surplus) w/magnum primers.

That was UNTIL my primer testing---then I switched to WW (old-only 1 primer from WW) .

Even AFTER Win brought out their WLRMP they showed no diff from Win's older primers.

My point being -- WW's old primers were hotter than OTHER primers <<NOT counting Federals!!

I have YET to see Federal primers on a shelf where I bought/buy components. You can't test what you don't have.

Just an observation from my experience.

jwp: I guess they did not have the choices back then that we have today....probably used what they thought was the hottest around. Can't really say why and JOC is long gone.

Maybe JOC living in the same town (Lewiston, Idaho) with Vernon Speer and CCI, had something to do with it.

Never had a lick of problem myself with H4831 and WW primers....even when burning 8.5-120 Staynless primers. With H4831 today I use WW STD LR primers in 270/30-06 etc, unless, as stated, I use RL22,7828,or RL25 in the 270 Winchester and then use Fed 215....they just work and accuracy is not a problem.

I did a test with all my 270's a while back with 60 gr of H4831 and 130gr Barnes TSX, TTSX, Hornady 130gr GMX, and Interlock.

All the same loads and used WLR and WLRM primers. In every instance with 8 different 270's the WLRM loads shot better groups, were faster and had better chronograph numbers.

I now keep those four loads RTG in my ammo stash and whenever I happen into a new 270 I go to the range and see which one shoots the best. Almost every time I can find one load that is hunting suitable at 1" or better, sometimes two.

There was one 270 that would not shoot any of the eight loads when tested. The smallest groups were about 2.5 inches with the WLRM and some over 6". It went down the road.

So from my non scientific experience, I would certainly start with magnum primers and change to nonmagnums if I could not get satisfactory groups.

crs -

Your testing sounds like you are using NEWER WW primers than I did & have.

Your tests sound good & very comparable.

Are those WW primers Brass or Silver colored. Just curious.

Thnx
Jerry

WLR- silver
WLRM-brass

crs -

THNX, the reasons I asked,

1. Your mag primers TODAY are different from std primers today.

2. I have 1-2 boxes of WW 6.5X55 factory ammo. The primers are brass. ???

Well.... I'll never know.... I don't buy factory ammo.

THANK YOU.

Jerry

CRS that's interesting....I was never that organized about it.

We tend to grab what we used in the past; and get hung up on certain powders....H4831 and the 270 being classic examples. Good no doubt; but some of the newer,slower powders can incrementally boost velocities in the 270,things like Magpro, RL25,MRP, etc. I think these will do very well with a mag primer torching things off.

If I get around to working with that new 150 gr LRAB, I will likely start off with 7828 or RL25 and a Fed 215 to see what happens.

I don't know if I would call it organized so much as saving load work up time.

I am a true 270 slut and have owned, sold and traded too many to remember. I love experimenting with different combinations, but it is nice to have solid loads to fall back on.

I do have to work up a load for my 12yo son's 270 this year. He is not comfortable with full power loads yet. Going to play with 110gr Accubond, 120gr SST and 130gr BT and possibly a 110gr TTSX. I will use one of the faster 270 powders with a standard primer to start with. Going to shoot for a 2700-2800 velocity range.