How much performance difference in the two? Other than a long action and short action and rifle weight, what are the benefits of one over the other? Thanks~

Ultimately the 300 Win Mag is capable of more velocity; but you'd be hard pressed to see it in any factory ammo IME. And you'd be harder pressed to see much if any difference in the field.

I am not sure any of it boils down to "advantages or disadvantages", or which one is better, so much as it boils down to personal preferences, ie, you want a shorter somewhat lighter rifle with the WSM;a longer rifle and cartridge capable of a bit more velocity with the 300 Win Mag.

Both are good cartridges.

You can buy ammo for the 300 Win mag much cheaper. For a reloader the difference would come down to whimsy since performance in the field would be indistinguishable.

No kidding...and here I was ready to get rid of my .300 WSM Kimber and get a Sako in .30-06. If it's as good as a .300 Winmag maybe I'll keep it.

I agree with Bob. To me it depends more on the individual rifle, how the stock fits, how well it shoots, etc. And, how well you like it. With the less common rounds, it pays to be a reloader. Probably pays to be a reloader anyway.

IMHO,

DF

I'd pick the wsm over the other for obvious reasons..

I hunted with a 300 Win Mag for a lot of years....never content to leave well enough alone,one of mine was built on a H&H length M70 action and 24" Krieger barrel and was set up with a long throat and bullets seated even with base of neck.

It gave velocities with the 180 gr bullet of about 3140 ( and gave right on 3200 without breaking a sweat but I ran it slower). It also gave a 165 gr bullet about 3225.

(Before someone says why not just go with a 300 Weatherby, I had one of those and hunted with it too).

In other 300 Win Mags with more standard throats I have noticed abot 3050-3100 with a 180 to be a practical velocity level while holding the cartridge to 30/06 OAL. Some 300 Win Mags come with longish throats but shorter magazines...they would give 3150-3200 with a 165.

I have measured vels with some factory stuff in the 300 Win Mag and it seems to be loaded to something over 2900 fps IME.

I have not messed with loading 180's in the 300 WSM and loaded 165's in them and have seen velocities of about 3125 with a 165 gr bullets and 72 gr RL22;this is the exact same load I have used in the 300 H&H for 3150 from a M70 and 26" barrel.I would not want to push harder in the WSM.

The velocity advantage of the 300 Win Mag may not be a lot but it is what it is.A guy can hunt happily with either one,as the 300 WSM is simply a length-challlenged 300H&H and there have never been any flies on that cartridge.

I may or may not be the only one that considers magazine capacity. If you're going to carry extra cartridges, usually the magazine is a good place to carry them.

my Kimber 300 WSM is an accurate and lighter weight rifle. I guess it depends on you and your personal requirements.

My .300 Win Mag, Ed Brown Damara has a long mag, throated perfectly to use that extra length. It loves 180 gr. NBT's and NAB's, shooting both sub inch at 3,050 fps with RL-22. The NBT's will slightly edge the NAB's, RE: group size, the latter being tougher bullets. With the same B.C.'s and POI, I pick and choose bullets depending on the critters being hunted.

The gun is in the 6# range without scope and IMHO, is about as perfect a .300 as one could have. To bad Ed quit making them. His 704 action has CRF and a round bolt, the best of both worlds. And the bottom metal is steel. It comes from the factory with a Jewell trigger and a McM, Edge type stock of Ed's proprietary design.

DF

The current record holder at the Ridgeway Rifle Club for 1000 yard BR silhouette.Is a 300 WSM running a Berger 200g Hybrid over a hot load of Reloder17.He shot a 36 out of a possible 40.
Thats damm fine shooting.
No 300 WM has come even close to that.
Now that could be that the guys running the 300 WMs have less on the ball than the guys running the WSMs.
But I see multiple 300 WSMs doing very well.
The 300 WMs not so much.

dave

I love the handling of my 300WSM Kimber 8400 Montana. A lot of power and range ability in a package that weighs about 7lbs with scope and mounts. Kind of a b...ch on the bench, but nice in the field.

But since you didn't include the 'Bee...WSM if you like a short action, .300 Win if you don't mind the longer action. Any difference in performance and recoil is equivalent to 1 1/3 short curlie hairs.

Is it fair to say that the 300 Win Mag is better with heavy bullets?

This is interesting.

I have loaded for a friends 300 WM and had one of my own, but not have only the 300 WSM.
In my perception they both can be very accurate but I also give the edge to WSM on average. I think the 300 WSM is inherently nearly as accurate as a 308 Win.

Also I am a small frame guy and my shoulder tells me the WSM does not hurt as much, but it could be the WM had a Decelerator pad and the WSM has a LimbSaver pad.

From 26" barreled guns the 300 WM edges out the 300WSM by a bit. If both guns are 24" tubes call it a tie, the 300 WM might shoot 180's 25-30 fps faster.

The WSM's advantage is that it gives you 98-99% of a 300 WM velocity in a 308 sized package with hot 30-06 recoil and better accuracy. Since the WSM will get almost the same speeds, but with 10-15% less powder recoil is noticeably less. It hits about 1/2 way between 30-06 and 300 WM in equal weight rifles.

I've had both, won't be going back to the WM.

case life has been exceptional with my 300WSM using max loads of Viht N550 and 180 grain Hornady or Sierra bullets, which "way over penetrate on deer"

The only shooter on the line with a master class Classification.That means you have to have shot 3 30 or above scores in one season.Did it with a 300 WSM and the Berger 210g Long range boat tail.
I run a 300 SAUM and run the Berger 210g LRBT.
It shoots pretty well but I have not broke the 30 target count with it.
My gutcheck feeling is that the 300 SAUM is more consistent,accuracy wise, than either the 300 WM or the 300 WSM.
And I have a very fine shooting 300 WM in a heavy stand rifle.
dave

...................In the field there are no differences when it comes to killing game. Owned a 300 Win for 30+ years then went to a 300 WSM several years ago because I swapped over to a lighter and more compact rifle format.

From my 49th Edition Lyman Reloading Handbook; page 231.

Quote,,,,,,"Ballistics of the 300 WSM averaged 30 to 50 fps below the full sized 300 Winchester Magnum while consuming around eight to ten percent less powder in our lab tests.",,,,,unquote.

So imo, when considering either cartridge, it should really boil down for the most part to any personal preferences concerning the rifles themselves rather than any ballistic performance differences between the two rounds.

This can get down to a hair splitting contest.

It's the same as 308 vs 30-06 or 100 fps, short versus long, etc. Buy the gun you like and go hunt. My Ti 300WM is 7-1/2 lbs or so weight is not a factor. I do think with heavies win mag wins!

Hit the nail on the head there....

JMR40,

You're getting 3150+ with 180's in a 24" .300 WSM? Because that's what "the .300 WM might shoot 25-30 fps faster" implies, because modern pressure-tested data shows around 3200 fps with 180's in the .300 Winchester Magnum with the right powder.

I would accept 98% of .300 Winchester magnum velocity, because that's what the difference in powder room in the two rounds indicates. That would be around 3125-3130 with 180's from the WSM, which is pretty damn good.

And I don't find 200-grain bullets are handicapped at all in the .300 WSM. The standard line among some people since it appeared is that 200's "take up too much powder room," but the butt end of a typical 200-grain spitzer ends up just about as far below the neck in a .300 Winchester or even .300 Weatherby Magnum.

As for absolute accuracy, I don't think there's any doubt the WSM wins. Bob Nosler told me a couple years after the .300 WSM came out that Nosler used to do the daily accuracy testing of lighter .30-caliber bullets with the .308 Winchester and .30-06, and used the .300 Winchester Magnum for heavier bullets. But after trying the .300 WSM, they just started using it for testing the accuracy of ALL their .30 caliber bullets.

JB....what is your "go to" powder the 300 Win Mag with 180 grain bullets?

My 300WSM A7 is right at 7Lbs scoped and you want to be holding it right when you shoot it.....grin

Edge stock with nice pad now so that helps.


2950-3050 fps with 175/180 grain bullets seems to be the right speed depending on H4350 or R17.



JB, depending on COAL a 200 grain Accubond will just barely fit using a full charge of H4831sc. I got 2900fps, and a sore shoulder....grin

300WSM's are fun to reload and shoot though, 175's aren't that bad shooting prone.

Cases last forever and never need to get trimmed.


Big medicine on deer!

mathman,

I don't shoot 180's much anymore in the .300 Winchester, but when I did H4831 was the first I'd try. Ramshot Magnum and H1000 normally get a little more zip, though, and Ramshot's data for Magnum shows 3193 fps for the 180 GameKing, using 86.5 grains.

These days I usually load 165-168 grain bullets with RL-19 for lighter game, and 200's with Magnum for heavier game.

Good informative post JB....We need some damn target pictures of a piss poor shooting Winchester model 70 (with CRF no doubt) 300 wsm:


5 shot group. Missed the fn dime, but still good enough to take my buck at 600 yards in 2011.

10 shot group @ 160 yards (fired with 1 sighter):







Hmmmm, point of impact seems a little weird though: Not way out in left field.


My newer 300 wsm doesn't shoot as well but it's quite a bit lighter and a lot nicer to pack around in the woods:


[img]http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/002_zps32ba0ca9.jpg[/img]

I would think the obvious has not been brought up yet. First, there is nothing any wsm can do that an existing traditional cartridge cant do better. I consider that...

Second, if you are going to hunt in dangerous game, ie grizzly, polar bear, etc, you get the picture, one of these babies is charging you at a fast rate of lightning speed, and as you raise your WSM Rifle up to your face cheek, you are thinking to yourself in that split second, God I wish I was shooting the standard cartridge and had that extra cartridge in the magazine of this rifle, I might live with just that one last shot.........

If I was being charged by a grizzly or polar bear, I wouldn't wish I was holding a different gun. I'd be wishing that it was you standing there instead of me.

That's funny. In those circumstances, I'd be using my 375 H&H with 4+1 or even my 348 with 4+1 capacity. 5+1 in the 9.3x62mm would be just fine as well..You're saying the 300 wm holds more in the mag? Mine hold 3, as does my 300 wsm's.

.................Well, I`ll have to disagree with your above comments in a few areas.

First off, no bear including either the polar or grizzly you mention, and given the same shot placements with the same bullets, will ever know the differences between a 300 WSM vs a 300 Win.

Secondly, it doesn`t matter whether your talking about the standard round (the 300 Win) or the shorter 300 WSM as a defensive round for big bears. The ballistic velocity differences between them from the muzzle are of no consequence.

And as long as you are talking about defensive rounds? Personally, I`d take a slightly lighter 300 WSM rifle over a generally heavier 300 Win rifle if for defensive purposes. Imo, your defensive argument should have more emphasis on the rifles and the user`s ability to react in emergency defensive situations rather than with these two cartridges themselves.

So if a hunter happens to get snuffed out by a big bear in an emergency defensive situation, it won`t be because he happens to own a 300 WSM or the 300 Win. It will be due to his in-ability to rapidly place the shots effectively during the emergency situation.

Now if your above opinion stems from just not liking the 300 WSM, that`s one thing. However, it is another matter all-together to assume that a 300 Win can save a life defending against a big bear whereas the 300 WSM cannot, especially when the ballistics between the two are so close between them.

M D, et.al.

This is my first post in this thread and I've been reading and comparing loads/ballistics between the 2 cartridges.

It 'seems' to me that with newer powders the WSM is virtually identical in performance to/with the WM. That being the case, pun intended, I don't see any grounds for criticism of one or the other.

If I had not been using and equipped for the WM I would give serious consideration to BOTH before buying and getting all the loading equipment for either.

It would be more important to me as to HOW each rifle felt/balanced/weighed AND the magazine capacity.

Personally I have no issues with L As. I DO have issues with HEAVY rifles. My current 300 W M is a M 70 Win Lite, and all up, hunt ready (3+1 in) weighs a little LESS than 7.5 lbs.

I'm happy and see no need---FOR ME-- to change.

None of us has to please anyone ELSE.

Jerry

Why? so I could kill it for you. grins,
No, I only brought up the mag issue because some of the bolt manufacturers do have a difference between the two. and for some people in certain country, that could be a consideration.

"It hits about 1/2 way between 30-06 and 300 WM in equal weight rifles" is an acclaim (or defense, depending on your point of view) for the 300 RSAUM, and look how little respect that cartridge gets on the Campfire... Personally, I think there are darn few hunters who can make use of the additional capability of the bigger capacity 300 magnums. I represent that remark. Until I can take the 300 RSAUM to its limits, I see no need for more magnum unless I just want to get it for gettin's sake. Funny how we beat each other silly with 100-150 fps either way when we know it makes no real difference in the field. There must be something magic about the 300 Bee, though, because I keep reading in magazines that it is the ultimate 300 magnum!! But I also hear about how it beats us mortals silly... which is why some savvy Guides of Old recommended the 7mm magnums for their clients... which takes us to the 7mmRM, and the 7mm Bee, and that fabled Goddess of Perfection: the 7mm Mashburn Super...

About 10 years ago I decided it was time to get a big 300 magnum. Did a lot of research and finally narrowed it down to either the 300 WM or the 300 WSM for what I was looking to do. Finally decided that I could go with either one and had my eye on a 300 WM which was promptly sold before I got to jump on it. Then in 2004 at a gun show I came across a Savage model 10 synthetic package rifle in 300 WSM (brand new). Small independent dealer was in the process of retiring and was clearing things out. Made me an offer I couldn't refuse. It was a pre-accutrigger model and I put on a Riflebasix trigger and a Leupold instead of the Simmons and have been happy ever since. Brass lasts darn near forever and my loads are always very consistent, velocity-wise. Lowest extreme spreads I've ever gotten from any rifle. Oh, and it's also very accurate. My go-to load has a 150 gr. Accubond running at a very consistent 3207 fps; almost 200 fps slower than my buddies 300 RUM launches the same bullet but it's plenty good enough for me. Wanna work up a 180 gr. Partition load so if I ever had the opportunity to Elk hunt that 300 WSM's the only one in the safe I would even consider.

I would buy a 300wsm because it gets velocities within a 100fps of a 300 winmag and because its more accurate. I would not buy one to save a few ounces, especially so in a magnum where a well balanced rig that weighs around 8-8.5 lbs is perfect IMO.
In fact I dont want any rifles that weighs much less than that.

That is a pretty slow RUM load. I mention this so we are not comparing apples to oranges.

Jerry,

Your thoughts and reasoning is well taken. If I didn't have this Ed Brown .300WM already, I'd probably be looking at the WSM to save weight. But this gun is in the 6# range before scope and is a solid sub-moa producer. Not much a WSM would be able to add.

DF


Top rifle


180 gr. NBT

D F - Thnx. It works for me.

Did you notice your bolt is TWISTED ?? <G>

Nice group.

This is my 4-5th WM. I've never had any reason to complain.

Yeah, that the way Ed flutes the bolts on his 704 actions.

The 704 is an innovative design with CRF AND a round bolt with no extractor cut out. The best of both worlds.

DF

More accurate?

(5 shot 300 yard group 300 win mag






Any perceived accracey difference in the hunting fields is a moot point.

I agree 100%. I have owned a few win mags that were tack drivers and currently own thats just a hair under MOA , but with just about any ammo you throw at it.
It might also be pointed out that the 300 win mag has won more wimbeldon cups than any other round and that the military uses it extensively.

OTOH if the bullet companies and the BR guys say the WSM is more acccurate I tend to believe them

The difference is so minute as to only matter to a high level compititon shooter

I tend to think the average FACTORY chambered 300 WSM is a bit more accurate than the average FACTORY chambered 300 WM.

Custom, all bets are off...

Shooting only factory ammo, I'd roll with the 300 WSM.

I'm another fan of the 300 Win Mag,I have 2 a M700 ss and a M70 PF they both shoot better than I can. I have put quite a bit of meat on my table using them. Can't see the need to discard either one for a 300WSM .What either one won't do I'm sure my 03-A3 in 308 Norma or my M70 in 30-338 will do. Now maybe if I didn't have any 300's I'd look at the wizzums closer. Read a lot of nitpicking on this thread without hearing any whining about long bolt throw of a LA gun, sure glad if people are getting over that phobia..
A while back I was at a favorite gunshop at the cleaning bench working over a barrel of a shotgun I was considering ( they let me clean any gun I want to as they allways come out a winner on that).A dude walked thru the frt door saw me working this gun over and assumed I worked there. He walked over and asked where the 300 WSM ammo was and I pointed out the places where it could be found. He picked up 3 boxes of ammo and a 30 cal brush. When he went to pay for it I was standing by and watched him pull a couple of c-notes from his money clip ,he didn't get much change back. Well I know all you guys are high rollers and dropping $145+ dollars for 3 boxes a shells don't phase you any but the idea of it sure don't appeal to me period. Yeah I reload everything I shoot cept rimfire but still If a guy wants a 300 mag you can get 300 win mags at any Walmart for about $23-25 a box period any day.Not so for 300WSM. My common cts worth all 2 of them. Magnum Man

To hand loaders, cost of ammo is secondary, but I appreciate your comments.

Both rounds, the WSM and WM are great performers, both very easy to work up precise performing ammo. The short, fat WSM may have some advantage over the WM, but from what I've read and seen, it's minimal. And, for hunting rifles, to me it depends more on the individual gun, how it's set up and how it performs.

If I was starting from scratch, I'd for sure take a look at the WSM. The .300 WM rifle I current have scratches my .300 mag itch very well, now and for the foreseeable future.

DF

I've had, loaded and shot both a lot. The wsm is kinder on the shoulder - in similar weight guns. A 300 wm can be made lighter but after having shot a 7lb 300 wm, I'll pass. A 7lb wsm ain't a picnic either. I think a guy can build a lighter wsm that won't beat you to death easier than the wm. I've toted my m70 extreme in 300 wsm around in a lot of high steep and/or ugly terrain. For me, its right close to perfect for what I do. I'm done playing with middle magnums.

My 7wsm fits my 'smaller fast bullet' small magnum niche for the same reasons. Their isn't much smaller big game that a 140 at 3200 can't solve.

Brad,

Actually, my experience is the average factory .300 WSM isn't any more accurate than the average factory .300 Winchester Magnum, probably because the imperfections in factory rifles don't allow for the best out of the .300 WSM. Even with custom rifles, the .300 WSM's edge is so slight it's not enough to make any difference on 99.5% of hunting shots, even at extended ranges.

And a year or so I did an article that involved research into what cartridges various military and national police organizations around the world use for their sniper rifles. Most use the .223 or .308 for shorter-range stuff, and cartridges from the .338 Lapua to the .50 BMG for super long-range shooting. But for general long-range shooting the overwhelming choice is the .300 Winchester Magnum. In fact only one used the .300 WSM.

This may be partly because the .300 Winchester has been in use for so long (it's now 50 years old), which means ammo and rifles are easier to come by, and somewhat standardized. But they also apparently have plenty of faith in the .300 Winchester when it comes to hitting people at 1000 yards.

In fact last fall I accompanied a semi-retired Navy Seal sniper while hunting on a ranch in Texas (semi-retired because he still gets called on for occasional special jobs). The ranch not only offers hunting but does classes in long-range shooting, and this guy does some of the teaching, and also once in a while takes out a cull animal, usually so they won't breed with other animals. But the ranch also really represses the pig population, so that's part of the deal too. His own rifle for this work is a custom .300 Winchester Magnum.

Now, the accuracy advantage of the .300 WSM can be quantified in indeed labs and in long-range target shooting--though these days most long-range target shooters use something that kicks less. But in the real world the difference is slight.

Which publication did this article appear in?

All of the 300 Win Mags I have built have turned out to be quite accurate. The same goes for the WSM's I have built. I dislike both cartridges because I don't like the designs. If I want a magnum to fit in a standard length action, I like the 308 Norma better than the 300 WM because it fits the magazine better. If I want to fit a short action, I think my first choice would be the SAUM and second the RCM. The WSM is just too fat. Nothing but prejudice on my part but there it is. GD

M D -- thanks for real data. I say that NOT just because I like the W M, I'm not prejudiced against the WSM.

Regardless of WHICH one is/was more accurate, I appreciate facts.

Jerry

Funny you should bring it up. I've always preferred the SAUM design over the WSM. Really, a more true SA design, whereas the WSM is more of a tweener that's too fat and has too sharp a shoulder.

But that's picking nits for sure... the WSM's work fine in the right action.

John, good to hear your opinion.

I've never had an issue getting good groups in a variety of factory 300 WSM's (something like 9 of them), but have far less experience with the 300 WM, so I bow to your obviously more substantial experience.

I'm aware of the military's reliance on the 300 WM, but I frankly believe they tend to spec something and stick with it. And rightfully so, it works.

Besides, the 300 WSM SUCKS in an M700 action!

MSG's Boucher and Lambert, at SOTIC in the mid 80's, put the M24 together for the Army. Both thought the 300 win mag was the way to go, for some missions, but they realized training troops with it would be more difficult. That is why the M24 was built on a long-action, is so it could be re-barreled in 300mag.

SOF units tend to favor COTS (commercial, off-the-shelf) gear, as they can use unit funds to purchase gear and ammo. Big Army can and will put your azz in jail for doing so.

Also, officers make money decisions, and rarely are they shooters, in any sense of the word.

I've shot and loaded for multiples of both. In hunting weight rifles (the only type I have owned) I have never noticed a difference in accuracy that could be attributed to the cartridge.

I've got both.The 300 Win mag has many advantages over the 300WSM.Longer mag box to work with,bigger case,can squeeze a little more velocity out of it,feeds better.Now here's my kicker,in terms of performance,both can get the job done.If my 300WSM wasn't so easy to find a load for and so accurate,I'd probably say it sucks compared to the 300 Win mag.Maybe I've just got a good one and maybe I've just been unlucky with three 300 Win mags.They shoot good,but my 300WSM is just easy to get to shoot good.It's much like a 308.It just flat shoots and kills with authority.

Derek Rodgers won the 2010 F-Class National Championship with the WSM.

Somebody needs to break out a 20mm and whoop those .30s in F-class.

To me the benefits of a 300 Win mag are slight but could theoretically be the following:
1. better performance with 200 grain bullets
2. longer case provides more reliable feeding in high pressure situations where the bolt is cranked rapidly-whether for dangerous game or non-dangerous game
3. the belt could theoretically give better bore alignment when the cases are full-length sized with some slop for maximum feed reliability in dirty/dusty feed conditions

I realize all these points can be trivialized--but we are talking trivia-so this is my viewpoint on the trivial advantages of the standard 300 WM.

It would be hard to prove that he could not won this match with a well-tuned 300 WM--all things being equal.

But he didn't.

I shoot 2 different Win Mags. I know Derek and thought some would find it interesting in this discussion

Both of these calibers tend to be very accurate on average, almost as accurate as a .308 Win.

The win mag's felt kick is more noticeable according to my shoulder.

I have a 300WM and like it fine. I don't think I'd ever buy or chamber a rifle in 300WSM if for no other reason than I don't much shoot the 30 mag I have now.

I often entertain rebarreling it but never have.

It's a Howaguard and quite heavy with a fancy lookin' blonde stock. Maybe I'll find a lighter stock and load up some 150ish x's or scenars.

I have read this whole thread and agree that the difference between the two could be negated by a fast barrel or daily temperatures or a variety of things. Being Valentines day I just went in to my gun room and hugged my 300WSM Kimber Montana.

I like her short fat little cartridge body. I thanked her for her faithfulness in Newfoundland driving snow and rain, and NY sunny days in the stand together. She has only strayed once from her intended purposes of whitetail and moose when I tempted her to make a Starling disappear that landed on the 200yd target. She speaks and Moose and Whitetail fall in her presence.

She cuddled familiarly in my arms against my shoulder as I repeated the words "till death us shall part." There are prettier, sexier, taller, hotter, stronger, but she just continues to put meals on my table.

I really don't care if her sister may, in the eyes of others, be a little more desirable because, selfishly, I really like what she does for me... Thank God Love is Blind.

Jim

Have a Sako A7 that was a tad of a handful with factory 180's........

Got a mate to hand load some Barnes 150 gr TTSX's for deer and for smaller varmints the V Max 110 grainer......

Have the option of running a brake on it .... but with the 150's recoil is manageable.

The 110's are fun to shoot too!

Gus

Then just as you�re snuggling up to Miss Kimber your wife walked into the room and caught you. She said "I can't believe you, your such a Rifle Looney, I am out of here". Go ahead and get ready for divorce papers...........

I had an online chat about this subject with four other guys,all shooters/hunters a lot smarter than me ....they all said scrap the 300's and get a 30/06.

Good one Bob. For many of us the light bulb is slow to come on that all you really needed was a good 30-06 - oh and maybe a 270Win. for good measure.
Another site? I thought this one was "it"!

That's the concensus of the 'geriatric' class shooters.

One of the toughest decisions I have had to accept recently.

I already had several 280's, 7 Wby's & a jewel of a 308 when I bought the 300 WSM. But, it will outperform them all & performance is what I want.

Reloader -

Would you tell me how the 300 WSM out performs the 7 Wby?

A sincere question.

Maybe the same argument could be made for the 308 too. However, when I am on a sheep hunt ranging animals from one hillside to the other, I like my 150's running no less than 3250 fps. The top end of 3400 fps I get from my 7# 300 WSM allows me a lot of wiggle room to set velocities at the desired level.

I am only speaking of the 150 gr, my preferred bullet weight in both the 7 Wby & the 300 WSM. Try hard as I did I could never get my 150's to run at an average of 3250 in any of my 7 Wby's. Even so, I felt like 3250 was pushing them to the ragged edge of acceptability. I could obtain occasional spikes to 3250 but it wasn't the norm. Like BobinNH mentioned earlier, I can't leave well enough alone. I want what I want.

The 300 WSM (mine) will push 150's to 3400 fps. I don't run them that hot but it will do so. I love the option of having the room to set my velocity at the desired level Which I could not do with the 7 Wby. The 7 Wby does not limit its other weights.

How many of you have had feeding issues with the WSM in Rem 700 type actions?

I have a 30-06 and a 300 Weatherby and no use for any of the tweeners, though the right 300 H&H could find a home here on the ranch.

The most useful 30 I own is a 30-30, its advantage is it is low recoil so it is useful to my grand kids, and shooting with them is the most rewarding shooting activity in the universe. And, now and then I carry a 308 which shows I don't really think velocity is the be all end all of performance in the game fields.

F-class be dammed, if the current hot shots were putting their skill into shooting the 303 Savage then it would perform to the level they are getting out of whatever they are shooting now.

Bullets kill, not cartridges.

I am currently tied with a myopic orangutan for the title of the world's worst elk hunter, but, Jeez, guys, the learning curve on this is not so steep that it requires years of hunting and piles of elk carcasses to figure out.
The first requirement of an elk rifle is that it be highly portable. That is because public land elk hunting puts a high premium on the ability to cover ground; first to find the elk, and then to be able to stalk within shooting range before some other hunter gets there or before the daylight is gone. Some days you see the elk before you get out of the truck- Next year, they are two miles past the back of beyond.
The second requirement of a rifle is that you be able to hit a soccer ball sized target quickly from field positions. The accuracy difference between any two commercially available cartridges doesn't amount to one flying [bleep] in elk hunting- You can hunt all day and not see an elk track, and two bulls stand up at 50 yards in some junipers as you head back to the truck.
Reliability is important- That Jewel trigger adjusted to the nearest 1/100 of a miligram won't mean Shat if a wet blizzard packs it full of snow and it freezes up.
Another requirement of an elk rifle is that you are not limited to how much you can shoot it because of cost of ammo or recoil. And don't tell me that you "don't feel recoil when you shoot at an animal"- Flinches occur before any recoil is felt, and they are not something you have to remember to do, they are something you have to remember NOT to do, and that can be hard to remember NOT to do when you are startled out of your spats by the sudden appearence of a bull elk after five days of pee poor hunting.
A rifle that feeds well is handy, because sometimes follow up shots are needed. Fact of life in elk hunting.
That is why cartridges like the 308 and 30/06 are so popular among elk hunters. They can be made in light handy rifles, cases were designed for flawless feeding when the military spawned them, they have more than adequate power for elk, they are cheap and pleasant to shoot, allowing for lots of practice, and they are very easy to shoot well under field conditions. Never in 20 plus years of being around elk hunters have I heard of someone not killing an elk because they had a 7/08, 308 or 30/06 in their mitts instead of a magnum- Have seen and heard, A LOT, of people shooting the magnums and missing elk at distances that should have been within offhand capabilities.
Bottom line, pick a rifle, then cartridge.

Your entire post just described why I prefer the 300 WSM. In a nutshell you get 300 mag power, in the same light handy 308 sized package, with 30-06 recoil. I know the WSM doesn't quite match the best 300 WM loads, but it is close enough. If anyone can tolerate 30-06 recoil, they will never notice the difference with a 300WSM. Going to the other 300 mags will be a noticeable step up over 30-06.

28, I have noticed your comment on the 7 weatherby.. I use 140's in my 7 and often 150' in my .300s for light game and open country.. For me the 7mm W. has be a screamer... It will move a 160 gr. out at3250 fps. The 140's at 3475....... While I prefer the .300's of all the 7's the Wea. impressed me most.

bigwhoop: Not another site.....email gack




jwall: I am regrettably approaching geezer status like Ingwe. but I have always liked the 30/06.

Reloader28: I dig...that's why I have 7 mags, too...it's really all linked to testosterone levels.

Royce, I used to hunt a lot with a couple guys who used 06's..
They often killed an elk, but a most as often they didn't take as shot because it was too far... Most of the guys I know that carried .308's or 06's, practiced very little if at all... One group "sighted in"off hand at a box a fridge came in.. If the hit it they were good to go.. They liked these calibers because ammo was cheap...

She was well aware of my rifle weaknesses and still married me 50 years ago. "Miss Kim!" Thanks for a name for her. Can't wait to tell my wife.

For a hunting rig pick your poison and rock on.
The 300 win mag has a bit more gas and I have no use for a short action/light weight magnum, so the Win mag fits my needs just fine.

Given physics there is no free lunch. A 300 WSM certainly does kick much more than a 30-06.
Chuck Hawks is a complete gas bag, but this chart seems about right.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

Contrary to the marketing hype surrounding the .300 WSM when it appeared, it does not defy the laws of physics, whether we're talking recoil or ballistics. It does kick harder than the .30-06, and isn't capable of the same velocities as the .300 Winchester.

Whether those differences are important to an individual shooter is up to them.

Put them in a race with the same slugs, and the Win Mag will win every time. There were no performance gains from the short version.

Absolutely. No magic, no free lunch.

One other thing, and this is just my opinion, but why in the world would anyone want a lightweight magnum is beyond me? If I was looking for a light weight rig I would be looking at something like the .260 rem, 7mm-08 or a 308 win.

Bob I hunted for a good long while with the 30-06 in my younger days. It was great. Then I started hunting this dam power line and 3 years in a row game was further than I liked with the 06. So bought a 300 and everything I've shot since has been under 2 on the same power line. Makes for a good laugh

Mike that's what usually happens when we set ourselves up for "long shots"....seems they never materialize.

Until....one day....they do.

I can only spress myself. I like ALL of my hunting rifles to be light weight. Now mind you I don't take the light magnums for an hour long shoot off a bench. The 'mechanics' of shooting have already been established or engrained.

My 7 RM and 300 WM are both lightweight and I use them for 'hunting' where you CARRY ONE MUCH MORE THAN YOU SHOOT IT. For no more shots fired while hunting, "I" don't find the recoil objectionable.

I have no problem carrying my 8lb 300 ultra elk hunting in the mountains all day long. And that little bit of extra weight is comforting should I have to make a long shot from field conditions. I know from experience that "I" certainly shoot an 8lb gun much better than the Remington TI I had.
IMO for most people carrying a LW or ULW just decreases the max range one can shoot to accurately. I realize this doesn't apply to everyone, but I would bet it does to most.

Just do what I did, and buy one of each. Honestly, I looked for 5 months after moving to AK for a .300WSM, and found them to, but for an average of $150 more for the same gun chambered in .300WM. I ultimately went with the .300WM, and was happy, especially after I finally found a 180 gr. bullet it liked. Just three weeks ago, I bought a used .300 WSM off a guy, that is almost identical to my .300WM, except it has a floor plater (ADL vs. BDL). I've yet to shoot the .300WSM, but I am betting the caribou will not be able to notice it was a .300WSM and not a .300WM this fall.

300WM vs 300WSM vs 30-06

Comparing what? If comparing factory loads...why bother?

Under 400 yards terminal results won't be an issue with any of them. Their proponents argue that the real advantage of the Magnums lies in their ability to extend effective range...yes?

Ok...here's some food for thought.

Comparing the 3 rounds loaded to the same chamber pressure, and with the same bullet, the 180AB in this case, and in rifles of the same weight...

Comparing remaining velocity at 600 yards and recoil, here's how they stack up:

30-06 - - 180AB - 1800fps - 22.8 ft/lb

300WSM - 180AB - 1900fps - 25.8 ft/lb

300WIN - 180AB - 1939fps - 30.8 ft/lb

I own all 3, and the results are interesting. If 100fps means anything, then yes, the Mags do have an edge, as one would expect, but you gotta love the 30-06!

You guys complicate this stuff way too much, I went .300wsm,

Why?

'cause that's the only lefty Winchester I could get my hands on, done deal.

I have had both the 300 win mag and 300 wsm. I alos had a Remington 700 TI in 300 RSAUM.
I only own the win mag and a 300 ultra mag now.

I know where a real nice LH classic sporter 300 win mag is..

i have owned two Rugers in 300 win mag, see no need to change, I am sure if I started with the 300 wsm I would feel the same way about it, having one, I do not need the other.
Same with my Sako 375 H&H, I see no need for any other 375 caliber, though at one time I wanted to try the 375 winchester they came up with in the lever action many moons ago.

As a handloader ( forget factory stuff, who the hell uses that? ) I'd likely do the same things that I did back in the early 80's. I'd grab a M70 action, screw on a 24" Krieger SS barrel chambered for 300 Win Mag,and load the thing to H&H OAL with 180 and 200 gr bullets(yes I could make it a 300 Weatherby as well, and did in another rifle that I hunted with, too. In 24" barrels there was not enough velocity difference between them to notice).

Back then I used a Brown Precision stock; today I would grab an Echols Legend.I used a fixed 4X but today would grab a 6X,and the plan would be to have the rifle weigh in at 8-8.5 pounds.

Set up like this it was no trick to move a 180 gr bullet at 3150 or so,and a 200 gr at about 3000 fps without breaking the bank and with good case life.This, back then, was mostly with IMR4831 but today we have even more powders that will do it.

Those 180 gr bullets dropped 4 feet at 600 yards from a 300 yard zero(actual shooting not from a table);and at 400 yards were only down about 9" making chest hits on bull elk pretty simple.With todays bullets the numbers would only get better.

We can look at numbers until the cows come home, but in the field, on game, and at distance,the 300 win mag set up like this was "more gun" than a 30/06 in drop, drift,and visual effect on animals,IMHO; and with well placed shots it dumped bull elk and everything else on their noses out to 500 yards or so, about as far as I ever used it on anything.This is taking nothing away from the 30/06 at all;but there is no denying the 300WM shot flatter,and hit harder at distances past 300 yards than anything I could feed a 30/06.It's just physics and the bigger powder capacity and higher velocity of the bigger 30 cartridge.In the end I would prefer to larger capacity of the 300 Win Mag case;useful at any level but it would allow me to start a 200 gr bullet about as fast as I could manage with a 180 in the WSM; nothing wrong with that.

I figure the real world difference in rifle weight between a 300 WSM and a 300 Win Mag would be no more than 1/2 pound or so and I would not be interested in any 300 magnum, WSM included,that weighed 7-7.5 pounds.

I actually traded out of a very accurate .300 WSM CZ Model 5 primarily because it weighed more than I wanted in a rifle with a medium length action. I spent almost a year trying to find a Model 70 All Weather in .300 WSM and finally bought a Weatherby Back Country in .300 Win Mag instead. It weighs a hair over 7 lbs. 4 oz with a Leupold 3-9X33 Compact scope that had been languishing in the gun safe.



So far, I like it a lot. I have finished my load development with 165 ABs and will start working with 200 ABs for an elk load. If I still like it as much in a year or two, it will probably get a McMillan edge. The Weatherby stock is comfortable to shoot but I just prefer a more classic stock design.

Mudhen thats a fine looking elk hunting rig there, bout the perfect weight for the terrain we hunt in (I hunt just east of were you hunt) dont want a 8lb rifle it that area

Mudhen, what powders are you looking at with the 200 gr. Accubond?? I use Re 22 with the 200 grain Part., but haven't shot the Accubond in the Win.. I have a good load for it for my 300 Wea... I have hundreds of excellent elk bullets, and only plan on hunting elk a few more years.. May have to have an elk bullet sale..ha ha..
Sharp looking rifle, but I am a wood man, and too old to change..

Wyo, I am going to start with RL 22 and H4831. The loads in the latest Nosler manual look promising. I used IMR 7828sc in the .300 WSM, but I am just about out and haven't found any on the shelf anywhere lately.

This is my "bad weather, bad country" rifle--I will still have a wood/blue option with me in elk camp this year.

Ah, smart man, two rifles one for bad weather and one for good..
In bad weather I stay in camp and more.. Not always the case, but now with all season off it is more enjoyable.. Hope this one is a real shooter..

mudhen I am anymore a sissy when it comes to recoil; can manage it but mostly don't like getting slapped around too much any more. That 8 pound+ 300 I had was comfy to shoot and not hard to carry; I lugged it for elk in the mountains quite a bit....I was younger then.

But as a carrying weight 300 yours looks like it would be a good one.

Well, as everyone says, you carry them a lot more than you shoot them--when hunting, anyway...

I think if you don't already have a 300 and were looking for a hunting rifle it would be tough to beat the wsm. When I saw NAB 180's at close to 3100 out of a 24" tube from a friends rife - I wondered why I was burning all that extra powder in my 300 Wby. My rifle shoots better at less than Max velocity and shot better than the wsm - but there is not enough difference not to take advantage of the short action benefits.

Add a sling and rounds and thats a 8lb rifle, which is about perfect IMO. Mudhen, Nice rig! How long is the barrel?

Barrel is 24"--about as long as I like them to be.

Left to Right: .300 H&H Magnum, .30 Newton, .300 Weatherby Magnum, .308 Norma Magnum, .300 Winchester Magnum, .300 WSM, .300 Remington SAUM, .300 Remington Ultra Mag, .30-378 Weatherby Magnum

When I was in the self imposed great debate of which 30 caliber rifle to add to my hunting arsenal. I looked at all of these above plus the 30-06. Read many books & articles and talked to as many folks that I could. I'd already owned a 300WM & 06 in my past. And for sure was pleased with their performance in the field. And frankly after all of this information here on this thread coupled with everything I've heard from others and read. All of the 30 magnums are about the same in the field. Deer to elk don't know the head stamp of the cartridge that fires a 150 to 200gr bullets. They all seem to be die with a properly placed bullet.

I'd read where rag writers said the efficiency of the short fat new magnums were better than the others. But when it all came to my final choice of which 30 magnum I wanted for a hunting rifle in, it really boiled to history and likes.

I like my women tall and shapely, I'm not attracted to short and fat or women that have broader shoulders than I. I do like women that can wear a belt low on their hips. Not a big fan of short necks, I think, long slender necks are sexy.

Then we have history. The maturest of all listed, that wears a belt. She's known for her elegant accuracy, high efficiency, buttery smooth swagger to the chamber, and she doesn't kick you out of bed.

The other thing that I felt more important was the fact that I've been shooting a 375H&H Magnum exclusively for over a decade. Having a bolt throw similar made for common sense.

My choice was the one pictured far left, 300H&H Magnum. It'll do everything the WSM & WM and has been doing so for a very long time. The debate of which is better, will probably go on forever with different likes, thoughts and beliefs. As noted above there isn't a dimes worth of difference among them all.

No not much difference, but they are all wonderful!!!