Am I thinking rightly? Is this a fair comparison?

The virtue of the 25-06 being low recoil and flat(er) trajectory; do tailored loads in the Swede compare favorably?

(Assuming the use of modern actions with higher pressures)

No to both. Look in Nosler #7 the 120 BT in the 6.5 has a .458 bc and can be pushed 3000 fps while the 120 NPT in the 25 has a .391 bc and can be shot at just under 3200 fps in the 25-06. I have both in M70 pf rifles, the Swede is a lot more pleasant shooting. The gack-gack in the back of #7 says 4.5" more drop for the Swede at 500 with a 200 yd zero. Most of the 6.5 shooters here would elect for a higher bc 140 gr bullet in the 6.5 and rock on. The 25's suffer from a lack of trick high bc bullets other calibers have today. If your into muzzle blast and Walmart availability on the ammo buy the 25-06. Magnum Man

Hot 108's in a 260 will drift less, but have a skosh more drop. Either means diddly under 500 yards.

Speaking of muzzle blast... How does the muzzle blast compare on the .260 Remington, 6.5 swede, and .257 Roberts? Considering these three for a young shooter/ hunter.

Anecdotal info probably isn't going to give a true picture since there are a number of variables, which brings the question of WHAT are the variables for actual and perceived muzzle blast?
barrel length
bore diameter
which powder used
how much powder used
?chamber pressure?
?muzzle velocity?

other conditions not related to the cartridge would also play a role in muzzle blast, including lighting among others

I know it isn't a direct comparison, but I used a 24" barrel for the Swede and same for 25-06 and one of the top velocity powders for both. All of it could change or be changed, but gives a general idea of both cartridges loaded to 60K PSI running a 120 PT in the 25-06 and a 125 PT bullet in the Swede.

Cartridge : 6.5 x 55 Swedish
Bullet : .264, 125, Nosler PART SP 16320
Useable Case Capaci: 54.421 grain H2O = 3.533 cm�
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.150 inch = 80.01 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-22

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 84 42.64 2423 1630 30011 9671 87.9 1.553
-18.0 86 43.71 2487 1717 32114 10009 89.4 1.511
-16.0 88 44.77 2552 1808 34373 10337 90.8 1.470
-14.0 90 45.84 2617 1901 36798 10654 92.1 1.430
-12.0 93 46.90 2682 1997 39405 10958 93.3 1.385
-10.0 95 47.97 2748 2096 42212 11248 94.5 1.341
-08.0 97 49.04 2813 2197 45235 11522 95.5 1.298
-06.0 99 50.10 2879 2301 48493 11778 96.5 1.256
-04.0 101 51.17 2945 2407 52008 12015 97.3 1.217
-02.0 103 52.23 3011 2516 55808 12232 98.0 1.178 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 105 53.30 3076 2626 59917 12426 98.6 1.141 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 107 54.37 3142 2739 64339 12598 99.1 1.105 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 109 55.43 3207 2855 69098 12744 99.5 1.071 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 111 56.50 3272 2972 74245 12864 99.8 1.038 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 114 57.56 3337 3091 79820 12957 100.0 1.005 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 116 58.63 3401 3211 85868 13023 100.0 0.974 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by � 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 105 53.30 3229 2894 73173 12089 100.0 1.051 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 105 53.30 2866 2279 47762 12032 92.4 1.259


Cartridge : .25-06 Rem.
Bullet : .257, 120, Nosler PART SP 35643
Useable Case Capaci: 60.358 grain H2O = 3.919 cm�
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.250 inch = 82.55 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-25

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 84 46.48 2487 1649 30107 10887 94.5 1.575
-18.0 86 47.64 2553 1737 32213 11215 95.7 1.533
-16.0 88 48.80 2619 1827 34473 11521 96.9 1.492
-14.0 90 49.97 2684 1920 36900 11800 97.8 1.452
-12.0 92 51.13 2749 2014 39506 12052 98.6 1.406
-10.0 94 52.29 2815 2111 42306 12273 99.2 1.361
-08.0 97 53.45 2879 2209 45318 12463 99.7 1.317
-06.0 99 54.61 2943 2308 48562 12619 99.9 1.276
-04.0 101 55.78 3007 2409 52055 12741 100.0 1.236
-02.0 103 56.94 3069 2510 55820 12842 100.0 1.197 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 105 58.10 3131 2613 59892 12940 100.0 1.159 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 107 59.26 3193 2716 64290 13034 100.0 1.123 ! Near Maximum !
+04.0 109 60.42 3253 2820 69051 13123 100.0 1.089 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 111 61.59 3314 2926 74213 13208 100.0 1.055 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 113 62.75 3374 3033 79813 13287 100.0 1.023 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 115 63.91 3433 3141 85863 13362 100.0 0.991 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by � 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 105 58.10 3260 2831 74015 12448 100.0 1.067 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 105 58.10 2934 2294 47717 13294 98.1 1.281

If I read beretzs's data correctly, the .25-06 has a 55 fps advantage at 59.9 kpsi for the powders he chose for the Partition bullets comparable in sectional density. That is practically a dead heat when considering all of the variables that affect velocity. As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, once you get to the 120 grain-class bullets, the 6.5 has the advantage in ballistic coefficient that more than makes up for a slight difference in muzzle velocity.

I see your point. I guess that I am just looking for general impressions and experience with those cartridges. My guess would be that the Roberts would be the easiest on the shooter of the bunch.

wilkeshunter,

Here is my take on the comparison.

QuickLoad lists the following case capacities (grains of H2O)
.260 Rem 53.5
.257 Rob 56
6.5x55 57

If all else is equal - barrel length, muzzle velocity, bullet weight (e.g., 100 or 120 grains), bullet type (design), chamber pressure, specific powder, etc. - you're left with bore diameter (very close) and amount of powder.

The .260 Rem would have a very slight advantage over the other two because of the smaller case - it should, theoretically, require less powder to reach a given chamber pressure and muzzle velocity for a given bullet and powder. However, I think the difference probably would be very difficult to discern.

One thing to note is that the Speer #13 manual indicates .260 Rem start loads using their data shouldn't be as much below max loads as is typical for that cartridge capacity. Speer #13 .260 Rem starting loads are 2 grains below their max loads (their start loads are about 5% rather than 10% below max) with the explanation that pressures drop rather fast in the .260 Rem as powder charge weight is reduced. That would be something to consider if wanting to load reduced recoil loads, but I don't know why Speer identified that as an issue with the .260 Rem but not the 7mm-08 or .243, which have very similar case capacities (55 and 54 grains H2O, respectively vs. 53.5 for .260 Rem according to QuickLoad). That potential issue wouldn't be an issue if you were planning to load at least moderate to full pressure loads.

Holy schit, just pick one. It doesn't amount to anything.

I agree the differences are very minor. For a first rifle, choose a rifle that fits the shooter the best because the differences among .257 Rob, .260 Rem, and 6.5x55 are so small. I personally would go with a 6.5mm of some sort because of the bullets available for larger animals and longer range, but that isn't necessarily a consideration for a first gun that will be used on deer and smaller game.

Yep, that's it in a nutshell

Yeah, pretty much. The .25-06 will has about a 3-4% advantage in velocity over the 6.5x55 with the same bullet weights, and the 6.5x55 offers a little heavier bullet weights. But having shot a few animals with both I doubt anybody's going to see much difference at ranges out to 500 yards. Beyond that the 6.5's have an advantage, but not at what most hunters consider "normal" hunting ranges.

NAD = no appreciable difference

How does real world throat erosion compare?

Thanks for the feedback

If you are going to go long action, might as well do a 6.5-06, 270, or 280.

No messing with rim sizes, low pressure load data, varying twists, throats etc.

Short action, go with 260 or Creed.

Robert,

.25-06 barrels will erode faster, because more powder gas will be going through a slightly smaller bore.

None of those three long action cartridges match the recoil level of the 6.5 Swede and .25-06, and .277" bullets don't match the ballistics of 6.5mm bullets. There's no free lunch.

Also, why not load 6.5x55 to CIP levels (i.e., approx. 55 kpsi) in a modern bolt action? Shouldn't be that hard for one to figure out what loads are in that ballpark, and targeting the CIP max pressure of approx. 55 kpsi, or some lower level, still provides a substantial safety margin to keep one away from pressures where knowledgeable people start being concerned. In fact, I know of at least one European manufacturer that has published 6.5x55 data reflecting the CIP max pressure rather than the anemic SAAMI max pressure.

If you're having a rifle rebarreled or custom-built by a decent gunsmith, it shouldn't be that hard to get things right for a 6.5x55. Stick with one type (brand) of brass, make sure you get a 1:8" twist, and specify your rifle's throat or simply figure out the throat once you get the rifle.

The 6.5x55 cartridge is a model of both effectiveness and efficiency with the powders and bullets currently available, and even before the great powders and bullets we have now, it was a model of effectiveness dating back over 100 years.

I almost had a 6.5-06 built about seven years ago but I backed away because of the rumor/myth of severe throat erosion. AND- a guy at work said, "just get a 270"

Is there something cumbersome or awkward about 6.5-Swede bolt faces and rims sizes or something? I have never owned one. Heck-never actually seen one in person.

Does the 260AI solve some of slight (longer heavier bullet) disadvantages of the 260?

Had another friend at work that stumbled upon a ruger walking varminter they had back then in 25-06. First gun he ever learned to reload for and that thing was a tack driver. That was a long time ago, but the idea of a lazer beam trajectory and little recoil kinda stayed in my head all these years.

from my own experience with a 6.5 X 55 in a VZ-24, the 120 grain bullet can safely be loaded right along side a 120 grain bullet from a .25-06.....I use IMR-4350 and reach 3,000 FPS.....and yes, I don't have a way to measure pressure except to say it shows no signs of excess pressure anywhere.....the ole Swede is truly a marvelous cartridge for pronghorns and any deer in north America.

Ramblin Razorback,

Well said.

It also depends, of course, on the "long" action. In my experience the 6.5x55 is perfect in what's generally considered a .30-06 length action, NOT the extra-long actions of many made today, such as the Remington 700. The .30-06 length magazine of about 3.35 inches leaves plenty room for ultra-long 140's auch as the Berger VLD, even more than the 6.5 Creedmoor provides in a short action.

One of my 6.5x55's was a Ruger 77 Mark II, and Ruger is one of the few American companies still making true .30-06 length action. It was super-accurate, with plenty of flexibility for bullet seating, but like a rifle-loony nitwit, after a few years I sold it. Built another with a 1-8 twist Lilja on a commercial FN 98 action a few years later, which does the same things (and has a nicer New Zealand walnut stock) but could have easily just stuck with the Ruger.

The 6.5x55 recoils noticeably less than .30-06 length American cartridges like the .270, yet stands up very well in downrange performance with similar-weight bullets.

Robert,

The 6.5-06 doesn't erode throats very fast, in fact not as fast as the more popular 6.5/.284, because of the longer neck. In theory it would erode faster than the .270, but there would definitely be some overlap in the life of individual barrels.

AI'ing doesn't solve the short magazine problem in the .260. That's exactly why the 6.5 Creedmoor was developed.

If you're not concerned with shooting moose or woolly mammoths, or shooting beyond 500 yards, the .25-06 is a very fine hunting round. It's normally very easy to find accurate loads, and from a 24" barrel 100-grain bullets can easily be started at 3300-3400, or 115-120's at 3100-3200.

The Swede is definitely a looney round. It is a nice round and if are getting one built then your complexities will be solved.

But I am pretty sure I could load a 6.5-06 to the same recoil levels as the swede, or a 270 for that matter. Don't have to run them as hard as physics allow.

I have used quite a few moderate loads in my 270's with 85-110gr bullets. They are a joy to shoot and have worked fine on deer/antelope.

Downside is BC, if you are going to get in LR shooting. Out to 300 is not an issue.

I must be starting to lose my looneyism, selling off odd calibers, keeping a pile of 270's and just loading specific as to what I want to accomplish.

Less brass to keep track of, less dies on the shelf, less bullets.

CRS: too much logic...not as much fun...

Don't worry about the minor difference in rim dimensions of 308/270 and 6.5x55. My US made Swede brass has the same diameter as US cartridges. No problems with it.

My 6.5 Swede brass, WW and Prvi, 'required' a # 2 shell holder.

My brass would not go IN a # 3. Still no big deal or big expense.

Like I said, I think I am losing my looneyism. But with having eight 270's, I may be safe.

I can just imagine what Ingwe might say about loading a .270 down...but eight of "em?

gotta get donors from somewhere, MD. lol

I have to load'em down to get to 7x57 ballistics.

Mule Deer,

What you point out about the remington 700 long actions being a little too long and longer than the ruger 06 actions...
I had never read that before, nor had I ever noticed it. Interesting.

The closer I look at the 6.5x55 I could really like it but after a brief perusal of Buds and Davidsons there are no new factory rifles chambered that are readily available.

If you get a gun smith to convert a Ruger 30-06 to 6.5x55 does the bolt face have to be cut mo bigger? Do they feed nicely after conversion without a lot of fiddling?

Thanks for all the feedback.

Robert White;
Top of the morning to you sir, I trust this finds you well.

To your original question, the largest mulie buck - antlers and body - that I've ever seen shot died in front of a B78 .25-06 with 117gr Hornady BT bullets. I watched that rifle shoot a few more mulies with 100gr Partitions and 120gr Speer Hot Cor too and it worked very, very well.

In fact if memory serves I think I shot at least one mulie with it too, but if it was deficient in any way on deer sized animals I didn't really notice.

We recently had an interesting exchange of thoughts and experiences with the 6.5x55 here in this thread that might interest you.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth.../Tissue_Damage_270_vs_6_5x55#Post9248055

So while it's early days for me looking to find a barrel up here across the medicine line, so far the price of a barrel plus installation will be close to $1000 by the time the smoke clears...

I'll note that up here a Zastava Model 70 can be had in a 1:8 twist 6.5x55 and they're running less than the cost of a barrel installed.

While I can't say whether or not the 6.5x55 will feed in a Ruger 77, the other afternoon I stuffed 5 of our daughter's 6.5x55 handloads into my .270 and of course they fed like they were running on melted butter....

Anyway sir, hopefully that information was somewhat useful to you or someone out there this fine still fall morning. Good luck on your rifle whichever way you decide and good luck on your remaining hunts this fall too.

Dwayne

Yes sir...

That thread you started concerning the killin and the twist rates; I read that with a great deal of interest. I have a friend at work who dotes on the swede and we talked about your observations.

Robert,

My experience is that bolt actions designed for the .30-06 (and similar rounds) will feed the 6.5x55 perfectly. The only difficulty in rebarreling is, occasionally, the bolt face. The 6.5x55 rim is (theoretically) slightly larger than the .30-06's, up to a maximum of .479", but American 6.5x55 brass tends to be made with a .30-06-sized, .473" rim.

Also, I've yet to encounter a controlled-feed bolt face that couldn't handle European 6.5x55 brass, which typically has a slightly larger rim. (The Lapua, Norma and RWS brass I have on hand all measures .476".) Some push-feed bolt faces, however, are little too tight for Euro-brass rims.

Another caution is that 6.5x55 chambered dimension vary considerably, both in throat length and body size, and since brass also varies this can cause problems--unless, of course, the chamber is all-around generous. Despite the larger rim size, European brass is typically slightly smaller in body diameter just in from of the rim. This doesn't matter most of the time, but the Lilja barrel of my custom 6.5x55 was chambered with a minimum-dimension Pacific T&G reamer, and American brass won't fit unless I size the base of the body down with a .45 ACP die. European brass fits fine.

All of this may sound like putting together a 6.5x55 is a PITA, and to a certain extent that's true. But you can have a bolt action rebarreled by E.R. Shaw for $300 or a little more, with a chamber that will handle all types of brass. (Some people don't think Shaw barrels are any good, and that was kinda true before 2000, when they completely retooled. I've use 7-8 Shaw barrels since then, which have all been good to excellent.)

On the other hand, you can just go buy a factory rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor or .25-06. Or look for a used factory rifle in 6.5x55. I could have solved a lot of my personal rifle loony hassle if I'd just held onto that Ruger 77 Mark II 6.5x55 from a few years ago.

I had a Rem 700 BDL in 25-06. It was a very nice rifle and I killed a few whitetails with it. For some reason I sold it, and later bought a CZ550 in 6.5x55. It isn't a light rifle but it is a solid, quality, good shooting rifle. I have used it mostly over the last 10 years or so.

I highly recommend the rifle and the 6.5x55.

The center part here is why I built my last .
260 on a long action I can seat a very long bullet way out and still run ammo through the mag.

I think the 6.5x55 is about the perfect round. I owned a 25-06 and 6.5-06 in the past and both seemed finicky compared to the Swede. A 120gr bullet at 3000 is a great combo for deer etc.

With bullets from 75-100 gr, I cannot find a bad load with my 25-06 featherweight classic.
move up to 115,117, and 120 gr loads and my handloads open up to 1.5" groups, or so...

I had a partial box of federal 117 factory loads given to me that shot real well. Around .75" IIRC.

for any deer that I might shoot, the 100 ballistic tip or the 100 hornady will do nicely, and shoot very well.

FWIW the 100 partition and the 100 tsx also shoot well, even if the tsx doesn't get the velocity I expected...

It has been awhile since I owned a 6.5 and I shoot a .25-06 a fair bit these days. I think either, as a hunting rifle, will do the job expertly and without any problems. My 6.5 was a modified WWII Swede and very accurate with the old Weaver 4x I put on it. I shot 120 gr. bullets but back then I didn't have, and knew no one who had, a chronograph. They both kill Whitetails and Antelope with authority. Out to as far as I can hit anything at least.

There is an intangible romance about the 6.5. that the .25-06 doesn't seem to have. I don't dwell on it much but some cartridges have this "aura" about them for some reason. The 7x57 and the 6.5x55 are two that come to mind. In equal rifles with equal bullet weights I think some folks would be happier with a 6.5 for no other reason than it is a 6.5.

When I first read the title of the thread, I thought: Hot, loaded Swede, as in a good looking blonde lady who had had a bit too much to drink vs. 25-06.

In my opinion, the 6.5X55 is about the best balanced rifle cartridge out there. I've a couple of them, one a Sako 85 that shoots with what would have been considered benchrest accuracy at a time within the memory of some still living. It kills without a lot of fuss and bother (read muzzle blast and recoil.) If I could only have one.....

Thanks a million for this detailed explanation. Seems to me that you could probably write a short book with about ten chapters going over the history, comparing swede to other cartridges and explaining the reloading fiddle fart and on and on. I'd buy it. I would bet a lot of folks would.

Thanks again neighbor.

The worst part about the 6.5x55 is having to explain what the hell it is every time someone asks what you are shooting. The average Joe has never heard of it. Odd for a cartridge that is over 100 years old.

I did a stutter step in my head and went back to read John's article on the twin 25-06's. Seems like a 1/9 twist is the ticket but it also seems getting a custom barrel in that twist is not all that easy either. All 1/10's at this site:

http://www.bugholes.com/

ER Shaw all 1/10

This thread from last year mentions Pacnors and Shilens in 1/9:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/7707234/2

Hart offers a 9" twist in .25

David

Tell them you have a 6.5 Swede.

The average redneck has never even heard of Sweden, haha.

Pacnor, Shilen, Hart
1/9 twist for quarter bore barrels.

Anybody else?

Tell 'em it's a 6 1/2 millimeter Mauser. They stay confused longer.

Running a handloaded 260 with 100 grain bullets, I can equal any factory 100 grain loads...

running 100 grain bullets in a handloaded 6.5 x 55 or my 6.5 x 57, I'd bet that they also will equal a 25/06 with a 100 grain bullet....

No love here for the .257Roberts AI?

Bartlein did a 1-9 5R for me. I think they will still do any twist you want including gain twist or progressive. Maybe an up charge and long wait though.

Now to get it screwed on to something so I'll know how it shoots as a 25-06.

I've owned both and the 25-06 isn't going to do anything more than the Swede. Recoil between the two is a non-issue as is down range performance. You can hot rod the Swede but why? What the Swede has on the 25-06 is history and nostalgic appeal as in it's been getting it done on mice to moose for a damn long time and still is in it's homeland. If it were me I'd go Swede properly throated for the long stuff.

I've owned both and have to side with the 6.5x55. Loses both energy and velocity at a slower rate and you can load larger bullets. I use 140 gr. bullets and the Swede is my go to caliber. Taken deer/varmints and none of them even twitched after being shot.