I have a $500 credit at my local gun store and with 3 kids coming up the ranks, I think I will use it to add a rifle to the stable. Currently I have a 300WSM bolt for myself for elk, a BAR 7mm Mag and a Ruger American .243. I have a 11 yo girl and twin 7 yo boys. I plan to take them on western big game hunts throughout their teenage years. We will hunt antelope, muleys and maybe some elk as they get older. So this rifle should be the most versatile at this point. The plan is to start taking them when they are 12. I figure I can control the 12-18 years, but once college hits...then careers....then families....I have 7 years to enjoy hunting with my kids for sure and have made myself a promise to take them every year. Starting with antelope with my daughter when she turns 12 all the way up to a potential elk hunt with big, strapping 18 yo boys, given my current stable, give me some ideas on calibers please!

I have considered 30/06, .270, 7mm-08, 25/06, .280, etc. I do not reload. Recoil will be an issue for my daughter during the early years (although she shot a deer with her 20 ga last year). I have stared at ballistic charts and looked up felt recoil. I want something that offers a lot of bullet choices over the counter. I certainly may need to buy another 1 or 2 as well. Maybe that is the answer....3 antelope/muley rifles and 3 muley/elk rifles (in addition to mine)....but that is a lot of doggone cashola. I am spinning in cirlces! Any helping thoughts would really be appreciated.

Palmetto State Armory is closing out Marlin XS7s in 243 for $250 wholesale. The Marlin X guns use the same barrel shank specs as most Savage 110 series barrels, so the barrels can easily be swapped. Buy an XS7 for each of your kids and buy/fit Savage barrels chambered for different short action cartridges as necessary. The XS7 stocks and Savage 110 series barrels are easy to find on eBay.

I have XS7s with Savage/Stevens and Adams & Bennett barrels in 22-250, 250-3000, 257 Roberts, 260, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 7mm-08.

Whatever you do, no muzzle brakes! The reports will make them flinch more than the recoil.

What you're talking about sounds wonderful. I've no gun advice for you but I'm sure you will get plenty of that here.

I'm wondering how you're planning to take them on out of state big game hunts. Just skip a week of school?

.223.

If they like hunting later in life, let them upgrade on their own.




Travis

There are lots of good choices.

243 is a good starting place. With 100 grain Partitions or some of the Barnes bullets, you've got a good combination. It was news to me that you can buy ammunition already assembled, but I suppose that a combination you'll like is commercially available.

Don't neglect the 30-30, using LEVERevolution ammunition. The recoil is relatively mild, and with the new flex tip bullets and the new powder, you get quite a bit better trajectory. It will probably do just fine for you out to 200 yards or more.

I'm also partial to the 260 or 6.5 Creedmoor. Those are mild recoil rounds with very capable performance.

I'd 2nd the 223/5.56 for a 'starter' caliber. One model that might be appealing is the Mossberg 'Flex'. 18.5" barrel, 5 round mag (but accepts AR mags), adjustable trigger and best yet, a collapsible stock a la the AP-4 style stock on an AR. The rifle could be used by all three at this point.

I'd also 2nd the Marlin close-outs mentioned above in a 243. That would be large enough to take out the antelope and mule deer and yet easy enough on the shoulder of a 12 year old.

As they reach say, 16 or so, you could 'graduate' them to something like the 7mm-08. Large enough to drop any elk yet able to load for a lighter recoil if needed. Maybe not as light as the 243, but not so much heavier as to induce flinch.

Be prepared for one or all of the kids to want to take 'their' gun when they go out.

But no matter WHAT your choice(s) are, the main thing is to enjoy the time with those kids. It will be many memories for both you AND the kids.

Pay it Forward.

Start with a 9 twist or faster in 223.
Get an identical second when needed in 243.
Get an identical third when needed in 270.

It is easy to find good deals on nice used guns, such as Rem700, Win70 pushfeed, or Ruger77 including tang safeties. Don't buy junk just because it is cheap.

You could go with all Ruger Americans if you want a consistent platform, but I don't think too many kids are going to have the "proud factor" going on with that level of quality. I know mine don't. They know the Americans are for throwing around and blazing away, but not one of them has asked for that to be their rifle. They all want blued/walnut for their own gun.

Amazing that folks suggest rifles for "kids" that they wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole.....

Having taught quite a few kids, boys and girls, and having them shoot every rifle/combo thus far mentioned, there is a recipe that works and a bunch that fail consistently.


Travis is a meany, however he is correct- you need a 223. The 223 is a certifiable murderer with good bullets because it promotes fun, which promotes practice which promotes dead things.. Hitting and killing animals is about round count (away from the bench). Round count is about fun. Solid 223's setup right are the funnest guns around and ammo is cheap.

Recoil bothers them soo much more than it does adult males. What's worse is to "make daddy proud" most try to fight through it, which drops the fun meter, which drops the round count, which drops hiring. When put in an environment where they can freely shoot at will any/all guns and cartridges lay'd before them it's quickly apparent that good setup 233 bolt guns and AR15's get smoldering barrels while every other cartridge isn't touched but once. Bigger than 223, 243's are the next thing and get shot 10-1 over any 260/7-08/308. The 243 with good bullets is a MONSTER and will kill every animal in NA without issue.

High end is a Kimber Montana in 223, but you've expressed concern over price, so Tikka T3 are awesome shooters and children seem to prefer them as much or more in my experience. Most find it easier to load the mags, than top loading an internal. That's important because the only kids that I have been around that develop a life long true passion for shooting and hunting all had things in common- namely that they were encouraged to do everything themselves (and were able) without a parent or mentor just handing them a rifle and saying "shoot that one".

If both the Kimber at around $1k and the Tikka at $600 are too much, than the Ruger Compact All Weather is where I'd land. Those rifles have proven to do well, they're sized appropriately, are lightweight, typically quite accurate, and a bunch of fun at less than $400.


Top it with a straight 6x Leupold or SWFA SS. Kids REALLY get into dialing turrets and ringing steel or popping balloons at 400-500 yards.


In closing, for shooting and deer/antelopes/etc I'd be in Montana/Tikka/ RAR all weather compact mode in 223 with a SWFA SS 6x. They will wear the barrel out, and more than likely you will too.


When ready for elk an identical setup in 243.

Man those are some good replies so far! Some differing opinions too. I have thought of most of these thoughts. I will respond to taking them out of school tomorrow when I am not on my phone. I am not too price limited. I have a $500 credit but can add to that certainly. I was leaning Ruger American but that is a good point....they work but are not a gun to be in love with. I didn't think about a 223. I certainly missed that point. I will noodle on that.

I don't like the fact the Tikka doesn't have a 3 position safety. For a kids gun, that makes it a nonstarter for me. Possibly Sako though. I don't know much about a Kimber.

223 is a great choice, I will also throw in a

CZ 7.62x39

I'm gonna say 7mm-08. Can start with managed recoil rounds for the tikes.

Personally, I'd take a 22-250 over the 223 (but, I'm a little biased on the round). I love those 60gr partitions for whitetail (full disclosure: legal in Texas).

Your a newbie here. Stay around for a while and we'll talk you into liking the .223 rem better.

I have given a lot of thought to both the 243 and the 7-08. When I think 7-08 I then think well why not a 270. Then why not a ...!

Hell, sounds like you need a 6mm rem then.... ... or a 257 Roberts... Stay away from that damn 7-08, it will just get you in trouble with the wife...

To the OP: were I you, I'd buy a Ruger American in 223, and spend the rest on quality ammo. Then go shooting. Because you don't reload, you'll need to factor in the cost of keeping three kids in ammo (that'll get expensive! but more than worth the cost) and that's where the 223 begins to shine. Even if they choose to hunt with a larger caliber, the trigger and bolt-manipulation skills they'll learn with the 223 will serve them well.

Why is that?

I know why, but I would like to hear your reasoning.

Berettaman,

I have been down this road and went .223. IMO it is a good choice for all the reasons noted by Formidilio. This despite his being a habitual cyber-bully.

I have yet to meet the kid that will shoot 50 rounds straight out of a 7-08 or .243. Not saying they aren't out there, but I've yet to meet them.

I don't like my children very much but I will admit they shoot pretty damn well.



Travis

Why I don't like the 3 position safety
By Berettaman

This report is for Mr. Formidilosus' 9th grade firearms class.

Kids are kids. My kids are shaping up to be pretty darn responsible, but they are still kids. If you have to put the safety in the fire position to unload the gun, there is a period of time that the rifle will fire if the trigger is bumped. As a firearm safety instructor, I always preach muzzle control. But kids are kids. I keep coming back to that and while unloading it is certainly possible they get distracted. With many quality guns on the market, why buy one that doesn't offer the utmost in safety when it is MY kids?

My dad has a Tikka. Great gun for responsible adults (notice I didn't just say "adults"). My elk gun is a Sako A7. It has the 3 position safety.

The boys are shooting 22 LRs now. They do a good job for 7 years old. 3-4" 14 shot groups at 20 yards. We dont have an easy place to shoot much over 100 yards (at least until the crops come off in Oct). So in some ways, the 223 will be wasted. Although there is talk of a new range in town....

We have a week in Mid-October where school is out for a Thurs/Fri. That is the week I will take the kids out. Getting good grades and doing well in school are prerequisites in order for them to go. This both gives them a fun incentive to get good grades and it is easy to remind them they better behave if they want to go. Sure worked for me. Also, when I think about life in the big picture, where will they learn more about life that week, in school or on that trip? Which is a better lifelong experience they will always remember?

Since you do not reload, i would vote for a youth stocked RAR in .223 or .22-250, or an AR in .223. The six position stock would fit every kid with a click of a button. A youth Marlin XS 7 in .223, .22-250 or .243 would also work. Reduced recoil loads in .243 are available, but are pricey.

Get another Ruger American in .243. They'll kill the heck out of stuff and make a lot of memories.

BM,

I got my kids a Ruger American Compact in .223. I will have to say as much as they love shooting it, I believe I like it more. My next rifle will be a Kimber .223. I can see shooting a barrel out, it's that fun to shoot.

Factory ammo is easy to come by and PLENTY of bullets if you want to reload.

They may or may not be proud of them by looks, but as you said, they're kids and the gun can take a dinger or two and you won't feel too badly about it.

My boy is going to be carrying one this season for the youth season.

Will the low comb of the RAR stock have a kid's (presumably smaller) head floating while looking for a sight picture?

I started my brothers and sisters and grand-kids (ages 4 to 12) on a Savage .22LR/410 and Savage .22LR/20 gauge. The .22 ammo is cheap and the ammo limitation teaches accuracy and patience. If you can find these used they will become "heirlooms" and the young'uns will really learn how to HUNT - not just SHOOT!

There are three savage's in our family and I cherish my .30-30 over 12 gauge. When I pass my kids will get a bunch of rifles, shotguns, pistols, and revolvers - but they are already lining up to grab the Thutty-Thutty/12 bore!


Terry

I'd skip the youth stocks if buying for an 11 year old. Especially a girl.




Travis

I'd skip the scopes, unless the kids have trouble seeing. I could shoot the mustache off a mouse with open sights when I was that young. I'll bet a good receiver sight and front bead combo would work great at the range a .223 is effective on big game.

I'll go for the .223, primarily because the ammo is so cheap. A big part of the reason my gang used .30-06 rifles in the 1960s was the ready availability of milsurp rifles and ammo. The Army had just gone to .308s, you could pick from a rack of Springfields for $30 each, and a million tons of ammo left over from 60 years of war was in the markdown bin.

I wouldn't spend my money on pretty rifles. I'd spend it on ammo and Gore-Tex, so they don't freeze their young tushes off.

Thanks. That's a great idea.

I like the Weatherby Vanguard S2 Youth in .223 or .243.

Some say 223. some say 243. some say both. Conundrum!

You know the answer. Don't make me have to persuade with pictures.




Travis

deflave, persuade with some pictures, please!

dadgum it, I cannot put my finger on exactly why, but I feel pulled to the 243. I already have one? maybe that makes it easier (ammo, no fighting over which one they like better). Am I somewhat unconvinced as to the effectiveness of a 223 on deer sized critters? quite possibly.

We like to shoot, but at this point, we dont shoot as much as we like to as we have to drive somewhere to do it (live on a lake). so does that take away some of the appeal of a two two three?

.223 can mean more shooting. That said, one son started with a .243, another with 7-08, and my daughter immediately fell in love with my wife's 6.5x257. The oldest doesn't shoot much, but the other 2 shoot very well.
Trigger time is the key, IMO.

Berettaman,

I hate to do this, but you leave me no choice. A young delinquent and his first centerfire. A .223:

Form,


My eight year old handled and operated some 12 different rifles I had. Savage, Marlin, Ruger, Zastava, Remington, and Tikka.

Her final analysis was the Tikka T3 was by far her favorite.

She is now the proud owner of an 8 twist 223 Tikka Superlite.

I'm thinking about lopping 2" off the barrel and 2-3" off the stock. The kiddo is only 8 and I'd like to get her started on the 223 pretty soon.

To date she's only worked with her Davey Crocket 22 and has run several thousand rounds a year through it starting at the age of 3.

Do you have any recommendations on getting the T3 more user friendly as far as the stock is concerned.

I've never owned a SS 6X42. How is the eyebox compared to the leupold? All my SS have been 10X42s.

As far as safeties go I've seen so many rifles go off that were on safety growing up Ive lost all confidence in the mechanism.

I've taught my daughter for years to only chamber a round when she's ready to pull the trigger. I also hunt with an empty chamber and only chamber a round when I see something I want to shoot at.

A good friends rifle went off while on safety and fired a 30/06 165 grainer several inches from my head once. I generally hunt alone now as other folks walking around me with a loaded round is a bit nerve racking.

Its a bit different and I know its different strokes for different folks.

Thanks





Shod

Shodd,

I am not cyber-bullyformidilious but I would advise you to let the child shoot the .22LR until they grow into the Tikka. Because they grow into a standard 13.5 LOP a lot faster than I think most realize.

The SS is forgiving but not as UBER as the 6X42 is for children IMO.



Travis

Thanks Travis,

Much appreciated, and most likely saved me from a brow beating response from this formidulous fellow!



Shod

As much as it pains me, I gotta agree with Travis...

.223 with the right bullets is deadly. Around here, it's the standard for starting young hunters. You can cut down the OEM stock, upgrade as they grow.

Get the fastest twist you can and if you aren't a reloader, become one.

And, pay attention to the trigger. IMO, a sorry trigger is the biggest impediment to a young shooter becoming a marksman.

Get them something they can be proud of, not the cheapest thing you can find. Be sure the gun fits and spend time busting caps, more the better.

Then, get them into reloading...

Kinda like, "Don't give a man a fish, teach him how to fish"...

DF

Folks who let kids shoot with a rifle with a heavy trigger fail to realize that kids have much less strength to pull that trigger. So a heavy trigger for an adult will be super heavy for a kid.

I really like the AR 15 platform for kids. The five or six position stocks will fit everyone in the family with a click. A bolt rifle with a really nice stock would be a shame to booger up for just a couple of years until the kid grows into it. For that reason I like the Ruger American. Buy an extra compact stock (tupperware is cheap) and swap out as necessary.

Isn't it about time mini-flave moved up to Copenhagen? Can't coddle him forever...

One thing I see too often is a crap scope on a kid's rifle, even when the rifle is OK.

I agree that the .223 would be a great choice, especially since you already have a .243. My son started hunting deer with a 30-06 since that's what we had at the time, and he did just fine with it. But he was 12 and the rifle had a synthetic stock with a decelerator pad on it. For smaller kids a light recoiling rifle would be better. If you do get around to elk, then it might be time to look at a 7mm08.

A deer camp friend of mine has a son who has become very recoil shy. He started the boy on a Mod 7 Rem. in 308 with full power loads. I advised against it, and it did turn out to be a big mistake.

I found out he has an AR type 223 that his son loves to shoot. When I asked about the twist the answer was 7". I told him problem solved, it'll shoot a variety of deer killing ammo no sweat.

Things ought to be much better this fall.

Good advice. He should have talked to you before the boy became recoil shy with the bigger gun.

He should be able to overcome that with the .223 and a good bit of trigger time.

DF

just to refresh my issue. I have twin boys (7)and a girl (11). So I have more than 1 of these to buy. I gotta noodle on this dos, dos, tres deal.

Ruger American....the next step up? Browning? Winchester? Kimber? Sako A7? yikes, I can see the $$$ rolling now...

Let the games really begin now that we have moved off the caliber and can start talking brand....

Oh, and thanks guys for posting your opinions (and pictures of roadkill, Deflave) . I really do appreciate it.

Shod,



The 223rem SL is a neat setup.




Sierra 77gr TMK's are a bit finicky, however 10 round groups are still averaging just over 1 MOA. 69gr SMK's average just under 1 MOA. The group on the right is 10 rounds of factory Federal 62gr Fusion at 100 yards. That ammo/bullet performs great on deer.


It is correct that they will grow into guns faster then one may think, however I have zero issue cutting a Tikka stock down to fit them every year (would probably go .5in longer than needed). The stocks are cheap enough and I'm all about them burning through barrels.



Da'Flave strikes again, as the SS is good in regards to eyebox/head placement yet none of them are better than the 6x42mm Leupold. I would personally try the SS first as mine don't have an issue in that regard, and they really like using/shooting The same system and being able to make their own elevation/wind calls even at relatively short range.


A Tikka 223 SL with either a 6x SS or a 6x42 Leupold and good bullets is a great way to go. Mine will see a lot of blood this year.







Mr. Travis,

Your rude and mean comments are unacceptable and unnecessary. To make me feel better I require a formal written apology...........


Or you can punch yourself...... grin

I think the fast twist .223 is fine to get them started on antelope and deer. And it's adjustable in an AR with a six position stock.

My one contribution is to get the stock that fits well and the caliber you choose won't matter nearly as much.

I cut down a stock for my .257 Roberts and my boys loved it, and it's still being used by my wife. Leaving the barrel a little "too long" is not really a bad thing. The muzzle blast being just a little bit further away will help with perceived recoil.

There are managed recoil loads to help, but a good fitting stock helps tremendously. When they've gained confidence, and grown a bit, you can put the full length stock back on.

You could start them sharing a .223 so your only keeping track of one firearm in the field. Your young Lady will move on to a "real" rifle leaving the .223 for the younger boys. Managed recoil loads in a 7-08 or .308 until the confidence is there and then trying full power loads with light bullets is an easy progression.

If you decide to cut a wood stock, first drill two 1/2" holes lengthwise from the butt, then cut with a very fine toothed saw. Add a strap-on pad to protect the cut butt. Save the "scrap" piece where you won't lose it. When you want a longer stock, put glue on a pair of 1/2" dowels and reassemble to stock with a mallet. Refinish the stock, and you'll never be able to find the cut.

If you manage to lose the piece, just add spacers under the pad every year until the shooter stops growing.

I hear you about having three of everything to buy, Berettaman. It's like these single people telling me flying is cheaper than driving - until I remind them I have to buy four tickets.

Thank God for Ruger, Savage, and bulk ammo.

Before the "308 trauma" occurred I offered to make up some low recoil loads with 4198 and 125 Sierras using the Hornady brass from Dad's sight in ammo. I got waved off at the time.

I choose the chamberings they shoot. They choose the dip they dip and the beer they drink.

Compromise.



Dave

I like my kid's gear to be on par with my own.

I do this so when I outshoot them, I can rub it in their face and they have no excuses. Common sense.



Travis

I just won a fist fight with my dick, if that counts.




Travis

PS-Those 10 shot groups are going to hurt your barrel.

I hope you now realize a .223 will kill deer. If not, let me know. I have more pics.




Dave

I like the idea of a standard size Ruger American in 7mm-08 or 308 win. You can start off with reduced loads and increase the power with age. Also for about $50.00 you can get a compact shock for the gun. The compact stock is an easy swap. You can change over from the standard and the compact stock for shooters of different size.

Nothing like buying a V8 and then ripping some spark plugs to make it "better" for your teenager....


I have to wonder how many that suggest reduced loads have ever really used them themselves. Having done it, I find it sucks. In comparison to just going with a cartridge that recoils less with proper loads, it's a poor bandaid.


I would rather hunt every creature on earth with a 223 with me picking the bullet, than any 7-08/308 with reduced ammo.

Good in theory but sucks ass in practice IME.



Travis

For long range deer and antelope a 25-06 is excellent and recoil is surprisingly light. I think less than your daughter's 20 ga.

It sounds fun, good luck to all of them.

Formidilosus,

I was thinking exactly the same thing. No reason not to cut the stock down as I can just put a new one on in a couple years.

De'Flave is actually a wonderful individual the only reason he recommended my kid not shoot the 223 is because he doesn't much like kids............Grin

I'll have to take a look at the Remington SL and may go that route especially if it works better for the kiddo.

Flave did warn me you would cyber bully me into taking the child's needs into consideration God bless him for being a true friend.

Shod

He is one of those rare kind hearted individuals that is quite sensitive and lashes out at people for like no reason at all.....



To be clear the rifle from the pictures is a Tikka SL in 223rem.

I'm late to the convo Bettaman, but it's hard to argue with what's been said. A .223 with the right bullet is a killing machine, that doesn't kick and can be cheap to feed.

That said, when I bought my son his first deer rifle last year (year before??) i got a youth 700 SPS in .243. My reasoning was it's a pretty damn versatile chambering, light recoil, and when that barrel is shot up I can spin on a fast twist 22-250 which is what I'd have bought him if it existed or built for him if I'd more cash on hand at the time. That with a Burris FFII 3-9 with the ballistic reticle made for a dead buck at 285 last year, and I'm confident it'll put an antelope and another deer in the freezer this year. And it's more accurate than I'd dared hope for. It is a rather loud [bleep] though.

Did you buy that .243 before or after the .223?



Clark

After. I'd already bought him a #3 in .223 which is a sweet little number, but heavy for him at the time to lug afield and I wanted a repeater.

Got you good you fugker!




Clark

Negative goofball. I didn't say first rifle, or even first centerfire, I said first deer rifle. Go back to bed.

All you had to say was "another vote for the .223."

Long winded fugk.




Clark

Had my little girls out shooting my .223ai Montana yesterday. The 13yo is gonna hunt deer with it this year. I had to work her up to full house loads with Trailboss loads. She is dainty and didn't like the step up from the .17hmr I've had her on for a few years. My plan had always been .243 for the girls and I bought several.

My 8yo was so excited to shoot her big sisters gun she wants to go every week and wants one for her birthday. I couldn't be happier and I am very glad I didn't ruin them trying to have them shoot .243 loads.

I'm currently looking at which .223 to get for the little one. I'd like to cut it down so it fits her and will gladly buy a new stock once she grows into it. Thinking Tikka SL but with the long action, it's a big gun. Still deciding.

Whatever Travis says. He knows ALL, including all about beer.

John,

You can see by the above picture, I very clearly know nothing on the subject...

Higbean,

That's a good setup.


A SL in 223 with a cutdown stock and barrel chopped to 20-21 inches is a very solid way to go.

+1

Hands down my favorite poster.




Dave

Well reduced 7mm-08 ammo still has way more power than even the most powerful 233 loads. I do think the 22lr is what you should start kids off with and the next step is the 223 but for deer hunting? I know with proper shot placement you can kill any animal with just about any caliber ever made but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to try it.

Funny. When I looked at the picture, I wondered if that was your gut er I mean your midsection.

What is "way more power"? Can you describe what that means and how it relates?

I dunno Obie, sure likes like miniflave killed the hell outta those dear in the pics above.

Travis,

What 223 loads, twist, barrel length, are you/your boy using?

Higbean,

My post about Travis was a joke--well, to a certain extent. It was certainly no comment on what you posted. Looks like a happy and well-armed kid!

John, I knew it was a joke and did not take it any other way. Probably should have put a smiley in there. I meant I knew nothing about beer.

Now back to this beer stuff. I went to a party once and people had some of it. They were even drinking it!

I've been to parties where people thought they were drinking beer, but they weren't.

Now this is no surprise.

obie,

How many big game animals have you killed (or even seen killed) with .224 centerfires?

As for your ".233" typographic error, it's interesting because when I first started hunting big game in Montana the state (like many others) had a .23-caliber minimum for big game. This was primarily due to the .220 Swift, because the people who made the rules for many game departments had a visceral reaction to any "twenty-two" caliber rifle being used on deer. Most had never seen a .220 Swift used on deer (or often even varmints) but they KNEW it wouldn't work. (This resulted in a bunch of .23-caliber wildcats, at least before the .243 Winchester appeared.)

Thankfully, Montana got rid of that rule many years ago. By the 1980's my wife and I were using the .220 Swift on big game, and I even used it as my "recoil cure" rifle when guiding pronghorn and deer hunters who flinched violently because they thought a 7mm or even .338 magnum had way more power so killed "better."

This isn't true. A "twenty-two" bullet through the lungs kills deer and antelope just about as quickly as a larger bullet, if you use the right bullet and put it in the right place. Usually they either die on the spot, or go 25-40 yards before keeling over, just like they do with a .243, 7mm-08 or even bigger rounds. Hell, I've seen one mule deer doe go 80 yards after a perfect hit through the lungs with a 200-grain bullet from a .300 Winchester Magnum--and no, the bullet didn't leave blood trail until about 5 yards before the deer fell.

If you have contrary experience I'd sure like to hear it.

Obie...Im with John, especially with todays bullets, killing deer with a .223 is a slam dunk...


Back in the day I trained a couple step kids to shoot and hunt. They each got a .223 and the best bullets I could find for the day. They were made to practice from position and by their first season they were almost-not-quite- sick of their rifles.

End result- each killed their first 3 deer with one shot apiece.


Its even easier now...

That is going to cause a few heart attacks.

I'm not even sure about how much help a bullet designed for bigger game helps. The bullet we used in the Swift for everything from prairie dogs to big game was the 60-grain Nosler Solid Base, which both "sploded" PD's (as my West Virginia friends put it) and went right through bigger stuff, leaving a quarter-sized exit hole. This was supposedly a "varmint" bullet at 3650 fps.

Dober and I talked about this one day when he stopped by a year or so ago. His experience with the Swift and .22-250 is that any bullet that makes it out the muzzle intact will work on big game. In the days before "official" .22-caliber big game bullets, he was partial not just to the 60-grain Solid Base but the 63-grain Sierra ProHunter, which he once used to kill a big black bear (with one shot) using one of Elmer Keith's "raking" shots.

I do know that a small bullet in the right place beats a bigger bullet around the edges (which is kind of like saying fire is hot), and a .223 is a LOT cheaper to shoot than anything bigger, especially for anybody who doesn't handload, which was plainly stated by the OP.

Odd you mentioned that one. The 60 gr. Nosler solid base was our go to bullet back in the day. 60 Gr Hornady SP a close second.

If I had a kid I would buy them a Kimber MT and have it turned into a 22-250.

I loaded some 60 gr Vmax in a .223 for a friends boy to deer hunt with several years back. The guy couldn't have been happier with the performance. I made mention of it here and got lit up for using a varmint bullet on deer. Have heard of guys using the 50 gr Vmax with great results. Guess things aren't always what we thought.

Higbean,

Gotcha! I should probably have used a smiley too....

Wan Kenobi should know better...

mathman,

Travis prefers Tumbleweed IPA, which is real beer.

When my stepson was just drinking age in Montana, he was at a party with his peers and repeated something his mother said about a long-time favorite regional beer, comparing it it to equine urine. He really didn't know the difference, and neither did his friends, but the comment became somewhat notorious.

My brother was an active member of a brewing club a few years back, and I'd get invited to their "show your latest keg" parties. There was a poster on the wall, a list of things you don't want to hear when your beer is being judged. "Your horse needs to see the vet" was one.

Recently found this bullet base in a whitetail doe tender loin (inner loin). Head on running shot. Momentum carried her body a few feet, essentially dumping her on the run.



40 grain Ballistic Tip, muzzle velocity 3550. Impact not much less.

Unfortunately, 22 caliber rifles are not any good for deer.

I knew a farmer who went to Russia on a cultural exchange. He advised the locals that their cow had diabetes. Almost caused an international incident.

Billy,

Found something similar (maybe a little bigger) when Eileen shot a doe pronghorn a couple years ago with a 40-grain Cutting Edge Raptor at 4300+ fps from a .22-250. the bullet landed just inside the left shoulder and the shank was found in the broken right shoulder blade. The doe went two feet, straight down.

That would be uber.

I came to revisit this thread because I too, am looking for a rifle for my kids.

Seems like our laws have changed and I am going to be able to take the rugrats hunting this year.

I am definitely looking at a 223. Considering a tikka or an AR. Kids shoot Ar 15-22s a fair amount so they are familiar with the platform. It's light and easy for them to shoot. And, it is versatile. Anyone and everyone in the family can pick it up and use it.

On that note, what Ar and more importantly, what barrel would you guys recommend if I went the AR route? I have a 10 and soon-to-be 12 year old.

1-8". 20" barrel.

I believe all those were with the 50gr. TTSX and H335.



Travis

More pics? Sheesh. I have a lot of fans.




Travis

You gotta try some Elevator from the brewery in Belt.

Very, very good. I see Tumbleweed more and more lately. They must be doing well.




Travis

If I see any Elevator will give it a try.

Tumbleweed is doing so well around here that the local grocery store is often out, and i have to go to the local Town Pump and pay another 50 cents a sixpack.

We bought some Chainbreaker White IPA in Bozone while selling books at the gun show a couple weeks ago. It's made in Bend, Oregon along with 17 zillion other microbrews and Nosler bullets. We liked it a lot and when I flew to Oregon right after the gun show to visit Leupold's factory they had Chainbreaker and some other Bend beers at a little dinner for several gun writers. After the Leupold tour we went to Bend and never saw any Chainbreaker, but then looking for a specific beer in Bend is like looking for a specific model of fast-twist .223 among Montana hunters: There are so many it's hard to pick just one.

JB: Is the white IPA similar to Belgian White or does it have that hoppy aftertaste?

excellent.

Expecting kid rifle info, and were talking beer.

Next thing you know, an Ackley improved thread will have chick pics.....

My go-to gas station (which is also a bait shop and a gun store) started carrying Bent Nail. I told them "Buy a lot, because it flies off the shelf." They insisted they'd bought plenty and they were out two days later. They've done a much better job since. I don't think most people realize how well those good IPA's sell.

If you have not done so, try Lewis and Clark's Yellowstone Beer. It's great for when you have to sober up.


Travis

I'm headed to Bend for the week and was thinking of stopping off at Nosler. My twin brother went to school with John Nosler and was gonna see if he'd give me a tour. Worth checking out?

Tom,

The Deschutes Brewery White IPA is real hoppy, like regular IPA's, but is made with wheat instead of barley, hence the lack of color and a slightly mellower flavor on the front end. But it's definitely hoppy, so ain't like Belgian White.

I have enjoyed touring the factory each time I have traveled through Bend.

Higbean,

You never know, but John is pretty busy these days so I doubt he could conduct a tour himself. In fact we barely saw John in passing while there, since he was always zipping some place or another. The last time I toured the plant, 9 years ago, he was the guide. Since then Zack Waterman has become the PR guy, and he conducted the tour.

What is "way more power"? Can you describe what that means and how it relates?

Reduced 7mm-08 ammo shooting a 140gr bullet at 2365fps will have 1738 ft. lbs. and a Taylor KO factor of 13,

120gr bullet @ 2675fps will have 1906 ft. lbs and a Taylor KO of 13.

A .223 shooting a 60gr bullet @ 3160fps will have 1330 ft. lbs. and a Taylor KO of 6.

I know many people regard these numbers as nothing more than numbers but many others regard them as a measure of the ability to cleanly kill an animal.

Kind of interesting that in this same section of Ask the Gunwriters there's another posting regarding 4895 and 60% rule and there's just as many advocates behind using reduce loads.

I can see merits in both approaches.

Taylor KO is funny. What's the Hornady one? H.A.R.P. Or something?

Let's get back to talking about beer. Sierra Nevada brews better beer than anyone and does it right here in my home town. There is nothing better and I'm headed to Bend to prove I'm right. Will advise...

Those numbers don't mean much by themselves.

The Taylor KO figure was an attempt at quantifying how solids put the whack on things. It's basically momentum x diameter.

A 458 Winchester shooting round nose solids has a much bigger KO figure than say a 243 Winchester shooting 95 grain Ballistic Tips. Start putting them through deer lungs and which do you think will prove to be the faster killer over a number of trials?

You know what tells you the most about cleaning killing animals? Cleanly killing animals.





Dave

That's not a bad brewery, but nowhere near the best. I like the Torpedos.

(insert dick joke)

(insert second dick joke due to using the word "insert")



Travis

Insert third dick joke, due to saying "insert second dick."

Fourth ...

Fifth ...

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.
.
.
.
.

Torpedo in the cans are good but it's pretty tough to beat their Ruthless Rye and Nooner.

It's like perpetual motion

How many big game animals have you killed with .22 caliber centerfires?

Contrary to popular belief, terminal ballistics isn't guesswork. In the last 14 years (let alone the since the late 80's) more research and money has been spent on how bullets actually kill than in all of human history.

Neither "ft-lbs" nor "Taylor knockout" has any relevance on killing in any shap or form. Both of those tell you about as much on tissue destruction as the phase of the moon. Those who believe in either one of those need to either educate themselves on the subject, or kill more. Usually both.

How well a bullet kills is based on two things- what a projectile hits, and how much tissue damage occurs. The last is loosely based upon impact velocity and bullet construction (contrary to popular belief- deep penetrating bullets such as Barnes, etc., do not always, and frequently do not damage more tissue, and therefor they generally kill slower than rapid expanding/fragmenting bullets as long as sufficient penetration is reached with both).

The wound channels produced by some .224 diameter bullets are horrific and WAY more than sufficient to kill 200-300 pound mammals.


As has been said before-

Placement, bullet, headstamp. In that order.

Here we go.

You and Gruff would get along famously.

Did I buy a Hennessy Hammock from you?




Travis

THe jokes not your dick

Dude, this is a family site. Calm the fugk down.




Dave

I think so.

I have no experience shooting deer with a .223 and I only know one person who uses one. He's taken several deer and even a 300lb+ black bear with it. He tells me that he loves his .233 but has learned that head shots work best. I have no idea what ammo he uses but from what I know about him its probably not the premium stuff.

Perhaps our opinions differ because of different hunting methods. I like to track if snow is on the ground or still hunt in very thick cover. Shots tend to be very close and fired off hand with little time to decide to shoot or not. Shot angle is often quartering to, away, or straight on. If the shot doesn't put the animal down on the spot blood tracking is required. In super thick cover an animal that runs even 50 yards can be hard to find with a poor blood trail. I feel that a bigger bullet will not only have a better chance of putting a deer down but also leave a better blood trail to follow if need be. I started hunting with a 30-30 and for my style of hunting I feel like that's a great choice for recoil sensitive shooters.

I know many here have cleanly taken deer and more with the .223 just like Walter D.M. Bell killed many elephants with 6.5 and 7mm's. I just feel like there are better choices and I don't stand alone in my opinion.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifles_small_hunters.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/bad_deer_cartridges.htm

I know these two articles will stir up a hornet's nest.

I set it up last night before a big storm. Had my daughter sleep in it. If it worked well I may use it next month.




Travis

Chuck Hawks eh?

Chuck Hawks, Taylor KO..... It's all starting to make sense.

Do you drink beer?

Something like the last 5 or 6 deer I've shot were taken offhand, within 75ish yards, mostly with a 223 firing 40 grain Ballistic Tips. All were running shots. They died as promptly as deer shot in a similar manner with a host of larger cartridges.

Chuck Hawks is the IPA of the hunting world. Simply terrible.

Chuck Hawkes is the Hamms of Gun writers.

Travis,

Hammocks suck. Sorry you got stuck with it.

Higgins

Just having some fun getting everyone in a frenzy. The bottom line is if you have confidence in a cartridge than by all means go out there and stack up the deer like cord wood.

[quote=obie458]I have no experience shooting deer with a .223 and I only know one person who uses one. He's taken several deer and even a 300lb+ black bear with it. He tells me that he loves his .233 but has learned that head shots work best. I have no idea what ammo he uses but from what I know about him its probably not the premium stuff.

Perhaps our opinions differ because of different hunting methods. I like to track if snow is on the ground or still hunt in very thick cover. Shots tend to be very close and fired off hand with little time to decide to shoot or not. Shot angle is often quartering to, away, or straight on. If the shot doesn't put the animal down on the spot blood tracking is required. In super thick cover an animal that runs even 50 yards can be hard to find with a poor blood trail. I feel that a bigger bullet will not only have a better chance of putting a deer down but also leave a better blood trail to follow if need be. I started hunting with a 30-30 and for my style of hunting I feel like that's a great choice for recoil sensitive shooters.

I know many here have cleanly taken deer and more with the .223 just like Walter D.M. Bell killed many elephants with 6.5 and 7mm's. I just feel like there are better choices and I don't stand alone in my opinion.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifles_small_hunters.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/bad_deer_cartridges.htm

I know these two articles will stir up a hornet's nest. [/.



Jumped from his bed and shot on the run at 135 yards. Granted was a 22-250 but I think hi I a .223 with a Barnes would've dropped him just as dead.

Thanks friend.



TC

OK... 7-08 120 BT's


[img:left][/img]

The Taylor KO is kinda hilarious.....



guess its time for pics...


This one was with a .222 50 Gr. TTSX 231 Lazered yards...Taylor KO of 5 maybe?




.223AI 55 Gr. TTSX 239 lazered yards..




Same gun...55 gr. Hornady SP 100 yards




Little bit bigger one for you...53 Gr TSX..





I have a bunch more in case you need them....

I didn't post the chucky links. Quote feature was fugked trying to post from my phone.

Looks like the links came up anyway!

Ive seen very little of Chuck Hawkes....first impression was that he was an ass clown.

Does the Taylor KO drop off more for the second deer hit on a two-fer?



50gr Sierra SP / 222 rem.

The Taylor KO drops off completely after the first deer is struck by your diminutive .222 and cnc bullet!

I don't know what she told you, but that second deer isn't really dead!

We ate a live deer?

You must have. How could it be dead with a Taylor KO of 0?


Thats barbaric!

Form-,

What bullet would you recommend for deer and feral pigs for kids using a 223?

Also, what are your thoughts for bullet selection for the 308 for game?

obie,

The Taylor KO Formula was not only devised for solid bullets only, but primarily for shooting elephants in the head. Many people don't know this because they've only read Taylor's second, and far more popular, book, AFRICAN RIFLES AND CARTRIDGES, but it was plainly stated in his first book.

So the KO Formula has zip to do with shooting deer.

The same can be said about Chuck Hawkes.

It's all Bob Ruark's fault. He shot a pig in the butt with a .22 in 1951 with poor result, wrote a book titled "Use A .470", and the po' lil' .22 has had a bad name since.

It all depends on what you are looking for. Some like more "explosive" bullets that tends to drop game, some like deep penetrators that always or almost always exit. You can have two people using the exact same bullets from the same guns at the same animals and one says it works great and the other thinks it's a failure.

The problem starts with most not understanding what projectiles actually do in tissue and what the wounding mechanisms are.


I have used most/almost all of the bullets designed for big game or duty use (as the requirements are generally the same) and most work fine.

I select bullets based upon how well they kill, which really means how much tissue they destroy. What I'm looking for in a bullet is the widest possible wound channel with penetration that will consistently make to the offside of a quartering deer, including potentially through bone. I do not care about stem to stern, or vice versa. As you go up in caliber/weight you can get softer and softer bullets that still meet the criteria above, and conversely as you go down you tend to lose penetration and need to start using tougher bullets. Same applies to game build and weight.


As Mule Deer stated most any will work on deer, but I prefer not using varmint bullets as they generally don't make it to the offside and exit though they tend to kill well. . In 223 any of the bonded or controlled expansion bullets work. The 64gr Nosler BSB being the flagship of the community. However, the readily available Federal 62gr Fusion load is very, very good and has an ideal blend of penetration and expansion and is usually quite accurate. That's usually the one I point most towards as it's so easy to come by. If you don't mind a bit less penetration, though still completely adequate, the Hornady 75gr AMAX and Sierra 77gr TMK's are very good.

If you like more penetration the Barnes TSX/TTSX's are great. Generally with monos I like dropping weight and upping velocity to help with expansion, however I tend towards the 70gr TSX due to it having a lower expansion threshold and the fact that I will take shots long enough where it starts to matter.



Same to 308's. I want the widest wound channel that will generally make it to the offside on a quartering shot. The 168gr Hornady AMAX does outstanding in this regard, and I consider it almost perfect performance on deer size animals. I also don't have an issue using that combo on bigger game as you tend to get good penetration from the base of the bullet. Yes, if you hit bone there will be a bit of meat loss but losing a little meat is a solid trade off for how well it kills for me.

I also like Nosler BallisticTips, Lapua 155gr Scenars (though they're a bit tougher than I prefer), Nosler Partitions, Bergers, Etc..... The Barnes 110gr TAC TTSX "Blacktip" meant for the 300Blackout is also a neat bullet if you lean that way, as the pedals shear off (increasing the wound channel) yet the base continues penetrating.




Long reply, yet I wanted you to know why I tend to choose certain bullets.

I'm going to put my friend with the recoil shy son on the trail of the 62 grain Fusion load.

I'm not Form (thank God, ) but when my son and nephew were little young guys from 8-12'ish, they killed lots of TX Hill Country whitetails and a few pigs with Winchester Supreme power point factory ammo. I believe it was 64 grains. They worked great.

Not sure if you're going the tacticoool route with the .308, but if not you can't go wrong with 165gr Accubond or partition bullets.

so I am now closer to the 223. but I am still undecided on the flavor of rifle. opinions? good or bad?

Ruger Predator in .223

Howa's are 1-9". So are Hawkeyes.




Travis

EXCELLENT advise! Spend a years worth of junior college tuition and STILL have a POS rifle.

Understood and appreciated, as well as your reply JG.

I have no experience with the 223 on game and have some young nephews that are starting to hunt so the reply is appreciated.

I agree deer are comparatively easy to kill, so bullet selection is more driven by dealing with feral pigs here. Most of the ranches where I hunt require pigs to be shot on sight. Letting a pig walk can be grounds to be asked to leave and not return. I like to make sure they drop where they stand, and am not ok with wounding them or letting them die slow deaths.

On the 308, I was curious about your experience. I have shot more than 100 deer and pigs in the last several years helping with culling, management, and pig control efforts.

While many here likely will chime in with differing experiences, the 175 SMK has produced more consistent results for me than any other bullet and worked fine on animals out to 450 yards with one shot DRT's. In examining lots of wounds from them through the years, they seem prone to tumble through producing some dramatic wound channels. They always produce through and through wounds on deer, and I've yet to ever recover one from a deer. On pigs, shot in the skull, they penetrate into the brain and produce DRT results, but usually fragment and do not exit.

Thanks for the reply and you as well JG.

jeffbird,

The 60gr. Hornady SP is hog killin' sumbitch. Cheap too.

The 53gr. Barnes TSX kills mule deer. Whatever that's worth to you.






Travis

the 55 TTSX is a hog killer too, and capable of hitting even these small targets!

Thanks Travis and Ingwe.

Saw the same load hit a 100# doe broadside and TRASH one lung (nearside). The 175 blew up, and must not have taken out the far side lung. It was a perfect high-shoulder shot, the same type that produce piledriver DRT stops with Bergers. A 175 SMK ain't a Berger. Found her, still alive, over an hour later, and finished her with a 9mm.

Word.




Dave

A



Have killed a lot with SMK's and they work as well. They work exactly as you believe- they penetrate a few inches then tumble, usually fragmenting very well and leaving baseball to softball exits. Sometimes they do expand as one would think, and occasionally they fail to fragment when they tumble, but the bullet still does good damage. It's all based upon the diameter of the hole in the nose. Older ones had a slighter bigger opening and were more consistent, newer ones have a smaller opening, very often with bits of copper plugging the hole, and some of the newest ones are pointed with virtually no hole. The smaller the hole gets the more inconsistencies you see.

Generally they still kill well and I would have no issues going back to them across the board.

He'll be good to go. The Fusions are cheap, accurate and work nicely on hogs. No idea about their fuggin' KO factor though....

Hey Ingwe (and anyone else who's used them on game) how did you like the 55 Hornady SP? I tried them the other day and they shot great in a 1-12, so I started wondering how they'd hold up on a deer or hog at .223 speeds.

Let me see if I got the last 4 pages of this thread accurate.

The only way to get my kid an appropriate rifle to hunt with is if I drink the same kind of beer Deflave drinks?

Who the hell is Taylor?

My kid just want to shoot and eat game she doesn't care how dead they are.


My daughter who will be 9 in September wants to load the 55 gr TTSX propelled with Hodgdons Benchmark because it has pretty purple coloring however also wants to give H4895 a go because it comes in a bottle with green colors and green is her favorite.

For practice we'll load some 55 gr V-maxs with a reduced load of H4895 and see if we can't get this Tikka T3 Superlite broke in.






Shod

A much better way of choosing components that a lot of guys around here at least this makes sense I have to also say my wife likes the different colors of various tipped bullets. The truth be known I really like the color of the 277 Ballistic Tips too

I bought my grandson, age 11, a7-08 which I load down for awhile but now he is used to it with factory ammo

The Hornady 60SP and the Nosler 60SB have both worked well for us on whitetails and pronghorn. Both have busted shoulders when necessary on the way in. Both have exited on broadside shots.

All from a 12 twist 223.

Here's a Stevens 200 in .223 (1:9") that I cut-down for the kids to shoot. I lopped an inch off the butt, and flip-flop padded it. I picked it up at a pawn shop for $225, and it has a SSS trigger in it. It'll shoot both the 75 Amax and HPBT fine, but I'm at 5000'....

Pictured with a Nikon M-223..... but wears a 3-9 Leupold with Target Turets now. It's a hoot to watch the kids range, dial, and nuke cow pies out to 400 or so (using a BDC turret).... I think it's seriously their favorite thing to do with a rifle.