Why did the Ruger Hawkeye All-Weather rifle fail?
The Ruger Hawkeye All-Weather stainless/synthetic rifle is no longer on Ruger's website. It's apparently being closed out at firesale prices by a number of businesses - I've seen two places recently that have them for $499 - which isn't all that much more than the unarguably inferior Ruger American Rifle in stainless.
To me, it seemed to be the essential rugged-use rifle. An above-average synthetic stock, stainless steel metalwork and excellent build quality. A rifle that would last through Armageddon!
OK, you probably had to tweak it a bit to get MOA accuracy, but those tweaks were well within the ability of the vast majority of gun owners.
What happened?
Profit margin vs sales.
More profit with the American models.
I purchased my first Ruger in 1978 . Things have changed.
The M77 MKII is considerable more rifle then the American,but I'd rather have an American before a Tikka.
Flyer
Perhaps they felt sorry for Winchester?
To me, it seemed to be the essential rugged-use rifle. An above-average synthetic stock, stainless steel metalwork and excellent build quality. A rifle that would last through Armageddon!
I bought my first new rifle in 30 years last year, and it was a Ruger Hawkeye, and your assessment is exactly like mine. I bought this one as the last 30-06 I'd ever need to buy. I've got a closet full of them, and I wanted to go out with a good one.
Although I would not be the one to say Ruger can't walk and chew gum at the same time, it looks like they want to capture a niche where things like the #1 and the stainless Hawkeye don't exist and the American does. There are unprecedented numbers of guns being sold and you either concentrate on what sells the highest volumes or you sit on the sidelines. Ruger wants as much of that market share as possible.
Solder is not guns, but I did work for a solder factory for 8 years. Just before the owners put the place up for sale, we went through a phase of introspection. There were 10,000 SKUs in our inventory, some with an 80-year supply sitting in our warehouse. The owners had been willing to make anything the customer wanted for 25 years. There were less than 2000 items that ever really sold and of those, the company had 200 that
generated 80% of the sales. Some, before you had the accountant massage the numbers, cost $11/lb to make and we were selling for $7/lb. I know this, because I was the guy who created the report. My point is, someone runs a similar report at Ruger, and folks make decisions based on that report.
Ruger has had a policy for as long as I can remember. They have a 6% price increase every year. They have simply priced themselves out of production.
Rather than roll the price back...they produce a cheaper model.
The market is changing and more and more folks want cheap rifles. Going forward the American rifle and its competitors are going to have more and more of the market. I wouldn't be suprised to find that the market share of other "flagship" models like the 70, 700 all have decreased over the last 15 years as more of the bolt action dollars go to buy savages, marlins and Americans. Even the older economy rifles like the Tikka have a harder row to hoe.
That said Ruger still makes the Hawkeye and they still make them in stainless, just not the all weather. I would suspect that in time a new "all weather" will surface, but it won't be in as many chamberings nor as in a large a production run as the old all weathers. Maybe starting down a road like the #1 where its limited run kind of thing.
I wonder if in 20 more years our generation will morn for the Hawkeye and its counterparts like my dads generation mourned the pre-64
I wonder if part of it may be the numbers of injection-molded stocks that have to be made for the highly successful RAR's. The stainless versions of the Hawkeye now have laminated rather than "plastic" stocks. It may be that Ruger simply can't make/buy enough injection-molded stocks for the All-Weather Hawkeye--along with most hunters who want (or accept) injection-molded stocks are buying RAR's rather than Hawkeyes.
One thing's for sure: Most firearms companies don't offer what customers aren't buying. At least not for long.
I don't think it failed, they just see more profit elsewhere right now. When the demand returns for the All Weathers, they will make more. For now, there are a bunch still out there.
I have a Predator, and the stock is very little, if any, heavier than the molded stock on the AW, although the barrel contour is a bit beefier. The laminated stock is nicely machine-checkered and well finished, but the recoil pad is a bit stiff compared to the squishy one on the AW. The two-stage trigger is pretty nice too, with just an occasional bit of creep in the final stage, easily managed. I floated it and trimmed the mag box a bit, which rounded out the groups just a mite. All in all, a really solid rifle; not cheap, but well worth the price.
If anything specific, I'd say competition from Tikka. The T3 Lite stainless is lighter, easier handling, smoother bolt in the store, smoother/prettier finish on the metal and much nicer fit and finish on the stock. In an AR world, lots of buyers probably regard the DBMs as an advantage. Read up, you'll likely consider superb accuracy to be a safer bet with the Tikka. And at MSRP, the Finn is about $150 less.
Most buyers aren't going to regard being built a little heavier/more ruggedly, nor the controlled round feed as sufficient advantages to choose a Hawkeye over the T3, if both are at non-clearance street prices.
That said, I'm having a really hard time not picking up a blue walnut Hawkeye right now.
I know it's not a popular answer but, too many choices was probably another part of the downfall, only part, I agree that the American and it's ilk are another significant portion of the reason. Yes you have to listen to your end-users, yes you have to innovate. However, at some point there are so many choices that retailers throw up their hands and decide that SS/Syn Hawkeyes are going to be "Special Order Only". People with $$ in their hands want to walk out of the LGS with a gun the day they decide to buy one.
One thing's for sure: Most firearms companies don't offer what customers aren't buying. At least not for long.
This. I imagine the RAR is cannibalizing some of the sales of the Hawkeye All-weather, along with bringing in buyers that wouldn't have forked over the money for the Hawkeye in the first place.
Perhaps it's a bit selfish of me, but I'm kind of glad. Simply because the sales on the all-weather model for $499 put it within my budget and I snagged one. I'd rather have the Hawkeye for $499 than a RAR for $350.
If anything specific, I'd say competition from Tikka. The T3 Lite stainless is lighter, easier handling, smoother bolt in the store, smoother/prettier finish on the metal and much nicer fit and finish on the stock. In an AR world, lots of buyers probably regard the DBMs as an advantage. Read up, you'll likely consider superb accuracy to be a safer bet with the Tikka. And at MSRP, the Finn is about $150 less.
Most buyers aren't going to regard being built a little heavier/more ruggedly, nor the controlled round feed as sufficient advantages to choose a Hawkeye over the T3, if both are at non-clearance street prices.
That said, I'm having a really hard time not picking up a blue walnut Hawkeye right now.
You forgot to mention that the Tikka has a far better trigger too.
The 9 RAR-Predators that I own are all at least as accurate than any of the Ruger 77s that I own or have owned in the past.
The market seems to favor the concept that no rifle is worse than its best attribute - assuming accuracy is that attribute.
In looking at 223 bolt guns this Christmas, the shop handed me a RAR - though I am already familiar enough with the 243 we bought for one son a couple of years ago. But I obliged the salesman and looked it over briefly. And that magazine is still just as cheap and junky as any gun part ever devised. It is certainly not deserving of sitting at the same table upon which Ruger has built its reputation: reliable and rugged. That design is truly the weakest link in the rifle, and my experience suggests that nothing is better than its weakest link rather than the opposite. I'll take the somewhat less likely accuracy of the M77 over an RAR any day. (My money went overseas in acquiring a 223 BTW.
)
The market seems to favor the concept that no rifle is worse than its best attribute - assuming accuracy is that attribute.
In looking at 223 bolt guns this Christmas, the shop handed me a RAR - though I am already familiar enough with the 243 we bought for one son a couple of years ago. But I obliged the salesman and looked it over briefly. And that magazine is still just as cheap and junky as any gun part ever devised. It is certainly not deserving of sitting at the same table upon which Ruger has built its reputation: reliable and rugged. That design is truly the weakest link in the rifle, and my experience suggests that nothing is better than its weakest link rather than the opposite. I'll take the somewhat less likely accuracy of the M77 over an RAR any day. (My money went overseas in acquiring a 223 BTW.
)
Well, as someone once wrote, only accurate rifles are interesting.
I don't use a firearm in the harsh conditions that you do, so while I agree that the RAR magazine is a compromise, it isn't deal killer for me. Besides, I'm, most, a 1-shot hunter, so the magazine is just a place to carry additional cartridges. My 2 RAR-Ps in 223 are both MOA or better shooters and the magazines seem to feed fine.
Since you're asking for opinions, I'll give you mine. The same reason they changed the finish on the blued version. Nobody liked the matte finish. Period. End of discussion. (from my POV at least)
I'm betting that in a year (or sooner), you'll see Ruger release a SS Hawkeye with the old Mark II style (or similar "shiny") SS finish.
Of course, that's WAG.
Well, as someone once wrote, only accurate rifles are interesting.
I think I'll stick with, "Only reliable rifles are reliable".
I will say this about the RAR, for a rifle allegedly conceived around a campfire, it has a number of strong points learned, I presume, from mistakes others have made or designs which have proven themselves. I have to admit that the RAR magazine reminds me of nothing as much as the plastic junk mags that have always been the obvious WTF on Remington's 581/541 22 rifles. How much better it would have been if Ruger had borrowed a concept more like Remington's M788 magazines.....like Tikka did?
As I told a Ruger neophyte at the range this fall who was holding the pieces of his new RAR's magazine in his hands, Send it back to Ruger; they'll take care of you." That is quite different than saying they'll make it right, which is too bad.
I don't like detachable magazines that protrude below the bottom of the stock on a sporting rifle, one of the reasons that I don't favor Remington 788s.
My RAR-Ps have all been reliable. They feed, fire, and eject without any problems. Unlike some, many?, folks, I haven't had any troubles with the magazines in 204, 223, 22-250, 243, 6.5 Creed, and 260.
Ruger has had a lot of success with the "plastic junk mags" in the millions of 10/22s that they've sold since 1964.
The cheapest stainless steel RAR I could find on Gunbroker was $429. The cheapest Hawkeye All-Weather is $499 on closeout. I've owned both, and I'd never trade a Hawkeye for a RAR + $70.
One problem, I'm sure, is that the MSRP of any Ruger 77 stainless steel model is currently over $1,000! When I was a kid, even a minimum wage job would allow me to save up the $165 cost of a Ruger 77 (probably why so many Americans are being sold today).
What's funny, as I reflect on changes over the past 40+ years, is that I started out with a Ruger 77 in .284 Win, which pushed a 150gr 7mm bullet at 2850fps. I'm over 60 now, and ending up my hunting years with a newly-purchased Ruger Hawkeye in 7mm-08, which pushes a 140gr 7mm bullet at 2830fps.
The best things never change!
To me, it seemed to be the essential rugged-use rifle. An above-average synthetic stock, stainless steel metalwork and excellent build quality. A rifle that would last through Armageddon!
I bought my first new rifle in 30 years last year, and it was a Ruger Hawkeye, and your assessment is exactly like mine. I bought this one as the last 30-06 I'd ever need to buy. I've got a closet full of them, and I wanted to go out with a good one.
Although I would not be the one to say Ruger can't walk and chew gum at the same time, it looks like they want to capture a niche where things like the #1 and the stainless Hawkeye don't exist and the American does. There are unprecedented numbers of guns being sold and you either concentrate on what sells the highest volumes or you sit on the sidelines. Ruger wants as much of that market share as possible.
Solder is not guns, but I did work for a solder factory for 8 years. Just before the owners put the place up for sale, we went through a phase of introspection. There were 10,000 SKUs in our inventory, some with an 80-year supply sitting in our warehouse. The owners had been willing to make anything the customer wanted for 25 years. There were less than 2000 items that ever really sold and of those, the company had 200 that
generated 80% of the sales. Some, before you had the accountant massage the numbers, cost $11/lb to make and we were selling for $7/lb. I know this, because I was the guy who created the report. My point is, someone runs a similar report at Ruger, and folks make decisions based on that report.
What happened to the Re-Vamped and Re-Introduced Red Label ?
I can sort of understand dropping the Gold Label SxS , and also get the accountanomics behind dropping the RedLabel, but once the Engineering money has been spent to re-vamp a product, the only way to recoup that investment is via manufacturing sufficient inventory, marketing it more effectively with distribution models that are much more timely & responsive.
Yes, the consumer wants instant gratification, but if there are savings involved one can be patient, and wait for one to be delivered in a few days time.
I think the whole multi-level Wholesale - Retail Distribution scheme needs to be re-thought if these smaller niche products are going to compete.
More inventory available from the Wholesale distribution center level would help many retailers move more product, rather than having just one area Big-Box
I'm
still looking for a smith that would/could re-work one of my 20 Ga Red Labels into a 16 Gauge Uplander.
I believe the action is large enough. Red Label Rant
Off
Ruger has had a lot of success with the "plastic junk mags" in the millions of 10/22s that they've sold since 1964.
Comparing the RAR mag to the 10/22 mag is akin to comparing a 710 to a Tikka IMO.
Would you prefer that Ruger would have adopted a plastic staggered magazine like the 710's for the RAR?
Since you're asking for opinions, I'll give you mine. The same reason they changed the finish on the blued version. Nobody liked the matte finish. Period. End of discussion. (from my POV at least)
I'm betting that in a year (or sooner), you'll see Ruger release a SS Hawkeye with the old Mark II style (or similar "shiny") SS finish.
Of course, that's WAG.
That's not my WAG but I hope you are right. I prefer the old MK II style to the "matte" finish on the all weather. BY A LONG WAY.
Where are all these cheap close out All Weathers located at??I am not finding them.
We went through well over 100. Just a few of the magnums left...
Perhaps they felt sorry for Winchester?
Fu ck those Portuguese bastids...
If anything specific, I'd say competition from Tikka. The T3 Lite stainless is lighter, easier handling, smoother bolt in the store, smoother/prettier finish on the metal and much nicer fit and finish on the stock. In an AR world, lots of buyers probably regard the DBMs as an advantage. Read up, you'll likely consider superb accuracy to be a safer bet with the Tikka. And at MSRP, the Finn is about $150 less.
Most buyers aren't going to regard being built a little heavier/more ruggedly, nor the controlled round feed as sufficient advantages to choose a Hawkeye over the T3, if both are at non-clearance street prices.
That said, I'm having a really hard time not picking up a blue walnut Hawkeye right now.
You forgot to mention that the Tikka has a far better trigger too.
Give me thirty minutes with a Ruger and it'll make you forget the Tikka trigger.
Since you're asking for opinions, I'll give you mine. The same reason they changed the finish on the blued version. Nobody liked the matte finish. Period. End of discussion. (from my POV at least)
I'm betting that in a year (or sooner), you'll see Ruger release a SS Hawkeye with the old Mark II style (or similar "shiny") SS finish.
Of course, that's WAG.
That's not my WAG but I hope you are right. I prefer the old MK II style to the "matte" finish on the all weather. BY A LONG WAY.
I don't really think it's a metal finish but rather a cheap ceracote imitation coating. It sure rubs off pretty easy.
CDNN has some on their site.
I've been trying really hard to resist one of the leftovers in 338 since I found out about the closeout prices.
I don't think it failed, they just see more profit elsewhere right now. When the demand returns for the All Weathers, they will make more. For now, there are a bunch still out there.
I have a Predator, and the stock is very little, if any, heavier than the molded stock on the AW, although the barrel contour is a bit beefier. The laminated stock is nicely machine-checkered and well finished, but the recoil pad is a bit stiff compared to the squishy one on the AW. The two-stage trigger is pretty nice too, with just an occasional bit of creep in the final stage, easily managed. I floated it and trimmed the mag box a bit, which rounded out the groups just a mite. All in all, a really solid rifle; not cheap, but well worth the price.
Always liked the various laminated stocks on the 77's better than their synthetics
- I never could dream up a useful purpose for the boat paddles indentations: maybe a fitted snap in pouch for extra ammo with compass & first-aid ?
These newer synthetics leave me cold.
I need one of these laminated Predators in .204R, if I really want a lighter synthetic stock I'd rather install an McM of some sort.
Perhaps they felt sorry for Winchester?
Fu ck those Portuguese bastids...
Why?? You should of formed a group and bought them back in 2005 when they shut the plant down lol oh Lawrence you crack me up...
I have a couple of Boyds Heritage laminated stocks on my 223 and 6.5 Creed RAR-Predators. I like the ergs, but they add an entire pound to the package.
Perhaps they felt sorry for Winchester?
Fu ck those Portuguese bastids...
Given that the Hawkeye is largely based upon the Model 70,
and they are both stumbling in market share ...
I have a couple of Boyds Heritage laminated stocks on my 223 and 6.5 Creed RAR-Predators. I like the ergs, but they add an entire pound to the package.
Mo Betta for Walkabout w/ McM ?
Putting a $500 McM on a $330 RAR-P seems like a "stone soup" build that will end up costing more than it is worth. At least that is the way I tend to look at it, seeing that I'm the owner of more than a couple "stone soup" build that got out of control, just a few dollars at a time.
Putting a $500 McM on a $330 RAR-P seems like a "stone soup" build that will end up costing more than it is worth. At least that is the way I tend to look at it, seeing that I'm the owner of more than a couple "stone soup" build that got out of control, just a few dollars at a time.
Everybody needs to go down a rabbit hole like that once
I love that analogy. It's perfect for most Savages.
260 : I saw that yours were RAR based after posting, and I totally agree. It is way too easy to get in deeper than anticipated without prior rational thought & discussion.
I do think a Hawkeye 77 might be the ticket for my .204 Predator walk-Around though. And for XC Ski around - that wants a tad shorter barrel though.
The trend is towards cheaper and cheaper though. Market competition pushes this with each new design introduced. These older more traditional designs costs are slipping up into the price points that start to justify the semi-customs like Montana or Kimber's 84 L/M etc.
It is nice to have choices.
Give me thirty minutes with a Ruger and it'll make you forget the Tikka trigger.
#1, I'm not anti Ruger.
#2, I can only speak for MY Tikka,
There's not any better trigger than on my T3 Lite SS
No offense.
Jerry
My RAR-Predator in 204 is amazingly accurate for a mostly factory specs rifle. MOA or better with Hornady 40 grain VMax factory ammo from day one.
Perhaps they felt sorry for Winchester?
Fu ck those Portuguese bastids...
Why?? You should of formed a group and bought them back in 2005 when they shut the plant down lol oh Lawrence you crack me up...
QC really sucked on the post 2000 USRAC model 70's. You of all people should know that....
. Pass the Ruger m77 MKII or Hawkey please. I'm surprised an army guy like you would condone buying chit that's made out of the country like the new model 70's. Unless you are half Portuguese... What are you not telling us John???
I've never owned a M77 in any flavor but I've handled many, shot a few and mounted scopes on quite a few. If the right deal presented itself I would get one and slap a Timney in it. IMO they are better made than any Savage I've seen lately, the American, 700 SPS and Tikka. Not that say a Tikka isn't just as accurate but I do believe M77's are better made.
Perhaps they felt sorry for Winchester?
Fu ck those Portuguese bastids...
Why?? You should of formed a group and bought them back in 2005 when they shut the plant down lol oh Lawrence you crack me up...
QC really sucked on the post 2000 USRAC model 70's. You of all people should know that....
. Pass the Ruger m77 MKII or Hawkey please. I'm surprised an army guy like you would condone buying chit that's made out of the country like the new model 70's. Unless you are half Portuguese... What are you not telling us John???
Country of origin isn't the problem.
Bought too much stuff that was blessed by Uncle Sam (ITAR),
that was utterly worthless. Money squandered.
Spare us your Xenophobia - the good old days of Pre 64's are gone
The Hawkeye and M70 Classic are latter day imitations that have been re-designed for more frugal mass manufacture.
Problem is that they are not beeing purchased en-mass, because there are cheaper mass produceable designs with slimmer cost per unit and consequently higher volume of sales with better margins.
They all get the job done - ask Bambi -
Rant Off
It seems obvious that Ruger put some good thought into certain aspects of the RAR. I don't recall where I first read about the way the idea for the rifle was conceived, but I picture it happening around a campfire....with a few adult beverages. I can easily picture the magazine being an "after-a-few" concept. It's just so "short cut" in design, not to mention difficult to load. Good magazines (like the 10/22's) are a thing to behold. Poor magazines just ruin otherwise good guns.
The RAR is about 12 steps below a Hawkeye in terms of reliability and quality based on my experience. I have had one of each and the magazine on the American is the reason I will not own another most likely. What a cheap POS.
The Hawkeye All Weather didn't fail. Ruger's marketing and design departments failed the Hawkeye.
The design guys should have figured that the customers wanting a hard core hunting rifle would have preferred a better synthetic rather than the craptasticly ugly laminated stock. With a heavy duty, synthetic stock that looked better than the factory synthetic that looked fresh from the Fischer Price mold line, Ruger could have sold the Hawkeyes to a different audience.
Which brings me to the marketing guys. The Ruger M77/Mk II/Hawkeye seemed to have originally been sold to the public as a reasonably priced, tough rifle for Joe Everyman. At some point, the rifle got priced out of poor Joe's budget, only to be replaced by cheap plastic crapola (aka the RAR). So instead of rebranding the Hawkeye as a hard use rifle, Ruger has set up the Hawkeye line as an outlet for the old fogies who still like controlled round feed, blued metal, quaint old chamberings, and wood stocks.
The discontinuation of the Hawkeye All Weather is very unfortunate for those who want the most bullet-proof rifle design out there, as the combination of open trigger, controlled round feed, stainless construction, and built-in scope bases was just about as tough as a guy could ask for. Yet the SS Hawkeye is no more, outside the used gun rack and for a short time the catalog of CDNN.
Get one while you can, for I see nothing as hardy on the market.
RAR is a backyard hunting rifle, I'll take a 77 anywhere.
The magazines in the RAR are truly the weak point.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.hunt101.com/data/550/medium/IMG_008917.JPG)
I would place money on a bet that Ruger would sell a bunch of those old Skel-stock stainless rifles if they decided to build a run in some of the common standard calibers. Heck, they'd make money just selling those stocks if they'ed squirt out a run of them from time to time. I'd buy 3 or 4 just so my boys would each have one solid, go-anywhere "forever" rifle.
Selling two 77 MKII this spring out of the four I still own..
Could never warm up to them..
Only keeping the .358 Frontier becuz it fits in my 250 kawi's handle bars so well.
Need to send a the early model 7.62X39 to Ruger repair for excessive headspace then will be selling it also..
Glad all you folks like them and thanks to this thread I won't by shy asking a pretty penny for the ones I sell..
The Hawkeye All Weather didn't fail. Ruger's marketing and design departments failed the Hawkeye.
The design guys should have figured that the customers wanting a hard core hunting rifle would have preferred a better synthetic rather than the craptasticly ugly laminated stock. With a heavy duty, synthetic stock that looked better than the factory synthetic that looked fresh from the Fischer Price mold line, Ruger could have sold the Hawkeyes to a different audience.
Which brings me to the marketing guys. The Ruger M77/Mk II/Hawkeye seemed to have originally been sold to the public as a reasonably priced, tough rifle for Joe Everyman. At some point, the rifle got priced out of poor Joe's budget, only to be replaced by cheap plastic crapola (aka the RAR). So instead of rebranding the Hawkeye as a hard use rifle, Ruger has set up the Hawkeye line as an outlet for the old fogies who still like controlled round feed, blued metal, quaint old chamberings, and wood stocks.
The discontinuation of the Hawkeye All Weather is very unfortunate for those who want the most bullet-proof rifle design out there, as the combination of open trigger, controlled round feed, stainless construction, and built-in scope bases was just about as tough as a guy could ask for. Yet the SS Hawkeye is no more, outside the used gun rack and for a short time the catalog of CDNN.
Get one while you can, for I see nothing as hardy on the market.
Fascinating to watch the race to the bottom isn't it?
I would place money on a bet that Ruger would sell a bunch of those old Skel-stock stainless rifles if they decided to build a run in some of the common standard calibers. Heck, they'd make money just selling those stocks if they'ed squirt out a run of them from time to time. I'd buy 3 or 4 just so my boys would each have one solid, go-anywhere "forever" rifle.
I bought a boat paddle 300WM in 98 for around $365 out the door. That stock is way ahead of what Ruger is doing now.
The trigger is garbage but I can still manage to shoot it just fine
I would place money on a bet that Ruger would sell a bunch of those old Skel-stock stainless rifles if they decided to build a run in some of the common standard calibers. Heck, they'd make money just selling those stocks if they'ed squirt out a run of them from time to time. I'd buy 3 or 4 just so my boys would each have one solid, go-anywhere "forever" rifle.
I bought a boat paddle 300WM in 98 for around $365 out the door. That stock is way ahead of what Ruger is doing now.
The trigger is garbage but I can still manage to shoot it just fine
The rifle in that pic, a 223, ended up going along on a trip we took up the Yukon River late one winter. It became part of the emergency kit that rode the sled pulled by a snowmchine for 500 miles - along the coastal ice of the Bering Sea and the frozen Yukon. Upon returning home, there was a death in the family and the emergency package: rifle, come-a-long, magnesium snow shoes, rope- all ended up staying bound inside that tarp until returned. Then we moved and the sled got loaded up, the bundle staying intact. By the time that bundle was removed and opened, more than 2 months had passed. Of course snow had found its way into the bundle over that 500 mile trip so everything was wet. But aside from a bit of rust on the screws on the scope, and a couple of pins in the working beneath the stock, nothing was the worse for wear. I wiped the moisture off, oiled it up again, and it was good to go.
Selling two 77 MKII this spring out of the four I still own..
Could never warm up to them..
Only keeping the .358 Frontier becuz it fits in my 250 kawi's handle bars so well.
Need to send a the early model 7.62X39 to Ruger repair for excessive headspace then will be selling it also..
Glad all you folks like them and thanks to this thread I won't by shy asking a pretty penny for the ones I sell..
Has your 77 MK2 in 7.62x39 always had headspace issues? I can't imagine how you could generate enough pressure, enough times, to set the locking lugs back on a 77 MK2 with that small a combustion chamber.
If anything specific, I'd say competition from Tikka. The T3 Lite stainless is lighter, easier handling, smoother bolt in the store, smoother/prettier finish on the metal and much nicer fit and finish on the stock.
I thought Tikka was discontinuing the T3 ??
I would place money on a bet that Ruger would sell a bunch of those old Skel-stock stainless rifles if they decided to build a run in some of the common standard calibers. Heck, they'd make money just selling those stocks if they'ed squirt out a run of them from time to time. I'd buy 3 or 4 just so my boys would each have one solid, go-anywhere "forever" rifle.
I bought a boat paddle 300WM in 98 for around $365 out the door. That stock is way ahead of what Ruger is doing now.
The trigger is garbage but I can still manage to shoot it just fine
You guys are going to make a Polar bear mad if you keep doing that.
The Hawkeye All Weather didn't fail. Ruger's marketing and design departments failed the Hawkeye.
The design guys should have figured that the customers wanting a hard core hunting rifle would have preferred a better synthetic rather than the craptasticly ugly laminated stock. With a heavy duty, synthetic stock that looked better than the factory synthetic that looked fresh from the Fischer Price mold line, Ruger could have sold the Hawkeyes to a different audience.
Which brings me to the marketing guys. The Ruger M77/Mk II/Hawkeye seemed to have originally been sold to the public as a reasonably priced, tough rifle for Joe Everyman. At some point, the rifle got priced out of poor Joe's budget, only to be replaced by cheap plastic crapola (aka the RAR). So instead of rebranding the Hawkeye as a hard use rifle, Ruger has set up the Hawkeye line as an outlet for the old fogies who still like controlled round feed, blued metal, quaint old chamberings, and wood stocks.
The discontinuation of the Hawkeye All Weather is very unfortunate for those who want the most bullet-proof rifle design out there, as the combination of open trigger, controlled round feed, stainless construction, and built-in scope bases was just about as tough as a guy could ask for. Yet the SS Hawkeye is no more, outside the used gun rack and for a short time the catalog of CDNN.
Get one while you can, for I see nothing as hardy on the market.
My father was not a "gun guy" by any stretch of the imagination. However, for a college graduation present he wanted to get me a rifle I could hunt anything with, anywhere. I unboxed a Ruger MKII SS/Lam in 338 Win Mag on his bed of the Ben Hur motel after commencement. I think he got it pretty close to right. Only thing I don't really care for is the weight as it is heavy. That said, it's never not worked.
Where are all these cheap close out All Weathers located at??I am not finding them.
One of the basic truths of hunting rifle sales is that the U.S. is more than half the world market, and 90% of American hunters primarily hunt varmints and whitetails--and the whitetails mostly from stands. Most aren't rifle loonies, so don't care about controlled-round feed, integral magazines, fine metal finish, or "better" stocks, whether walnut or synthetic. Instead they want a rifle that will go bang accurately for the lowest price.
Which is why RAR's out-sell Hawkeyes.
Give me thirty minutes with a Ruger and it'll make you forget the Tikka trigger.
#1, I'm not anti Ruger.
#2, I can only speak for MY Tikka,
There's not any better trigger than on my T3 Lite SS
No offense.
Jerry
No offense taken. The point I was indirectly making is that with the open design of the Ruger trigger, (as compared to the current trend toward enclosed boxes) a few minutes work with a good Arkansas stone makes it nice and light and as crisp as a shooter could want.
As is obvious, I am a M77 fan. I currently own two of the Hawkeye All-Weather models. (223 and 308) and am told that I need a 243 for when I get old; I'm 72. It will probably also be a M77, either Mark II or Hawkeye in All-Weather form, if I can find one. There is something very desirable to me about an all-steel, well designed rifle, USA made, that will last several lifetimes.
Selling two 77 MKII this spring out of the four I still own..
Could never warm up to them..
Only keeping the .358 Frontier becuz it fits in my 250 kawi's handle bars so well.
Need to send a the early model 7.62X39 to Ruger repair for excessive headspace then will be selling it also..
Glad all you folks like them and thanks to this thread I won't by shy asking a pretty penny for the ones I sell..
Has your 77 MK2 in 7.62x39 always had headspace issues? I can't imagine how you could generate enough pressure, enough times, to set the locking lugs back on a 77 MK2 with that small a combustion chamber.
Yes it had headspace issues from the get go with factory rounds which I fired first in this rifle as I could not find any reloading components becuz of the "93" Kilton gun scare..
I got around the headspace issue by expanding up the case necks with a home made expander then resizing down with a false shoulder..
I actually like the 7.62X39 round and own a mini-mauser, and a CZ 527 also..
The HE didn't fail. I think they are just clearing out the leftovers to bring out an overhauled synthetic stock next year, just like on their new scout rifles.
A few years from now, all those RARs will be so much cannon fodder, but the HE will be coveted.
Americans buy cheap junk when it looks like a good deal; they then buy something more worthwhile when they desire to move up in the world. Most RARs are being bought by new/young shooters.
The HE didn't fail. I think they are just clearing out the leftovers to bring out an overhauled synthetic stock next year, just like on their new scout rifles.
A few years from now, all those RARs will be so much cannon fodder, but the HE will be coveted.
Americans buy cheap junk when it looks like a good deal; they then buy something more worthwhile when they desire to move up in the world. Most RARs are being bought by new/young shooters.
Regarding your perspective on the RARs, I had hundreds of more expensive rifles when I bought my first RAR-Predator on 02/05/15 and have since bought 8 more. I have been shooting for over 50 years and am currently near the end of my 6th decade on Earth, neither new to the sport, nor particularly young. Perhaps I'm not representative of the "typical" RAR buyer, having liked them enough to buy 9 of them.
What rifle can you buy for under $400, often under $350, that offers such good out of the box accuracy as the RAR-Predator? If somebody makes one in 6.5 Creedmoor, point me in the right direction.
One of the basic truths of hunting rifle sales is that the U.S. is more than half the world market, and 90% of American hunters primarily hunt varmints and whitetails--and the whitetails mostly from stands. Most aren't rifle loonies, so don't care about controlled-round feed, integral magazines, fine metal finish, or "better" stocks, whether walnut or synthetic. Instead they want a rifle that will go bang accurately for the lowest price.
Which is why RAR's out-sell Hawkeyes.
I see this all the time at the rifle range savage axis, rar. I'm the odd guy out with my winchesters..
Perhaps they felt sorry for Winchester?
Fu ck those Portuguese bastids...
Why?? You should of formed a group and bought them back in 2005 when they shut the plant down lol oh Lawrence you crack me up...
QC really sucked on the post 2000 USRAC model 70's. You of all people should know that....
. Pass the Ruger m77 MKII or Hawkey please. I'm surprised an army guy like you would condone buying chit that's made out of the country like the new model 70's. Unless you are half Portuguese... What are you not telling us John???
Now you are just grasping for [bleep] Lawrence qc didn't start getting bad until they got well into the 7 digits of the model 70's made at the new haven plant.. I have tikka made in Finland, Howas made in Japan so buying foreign don't bother me.. basically the American companies that were tasked with making stocks couldn't pull their head out of their asses and get qc under control.. That's why the model 70 is being assembled in Portugal.. Cry all you want but it was your fellow American worker who ph ucked up... Being in the Army I have no issues buying a model 70 made in Portugal everything I read they a very well put together rifles... Oh and I do own a Ruger Hawkeye.. But it gets a little old seeing you get on your soap box about the Portuguese model 70's..
Why did the Ruger Hawkeye All-Weather rifle fail?
The Ruger Hawkeye All-Weather stainless/synthetic rifle is no longer on Ruger's website.
To me, it seemed to be the essential rugged-use rifle. An above-average synthetic stock, stainless steel metalwork and excellent build quality. A rifle that would last through Armageddon!
The best version of it ever made is still available. The Gunsite Scout Rifle.
I truly hope that the Hawkeye has not failed. I hope that it is a clearance for other reasons as someone suggested above. The Mark II stainless rifles are without a doubt my favorite using rifles.
I have various 375 & 416 Rugers in the Alaskan versions and have built off this action. The Mark II's I have in a few various cartridges, but have always bead blasted them to eliminate the polished shiny finish and replaced the tough-ass Zytel stock with one that fit my shortened l.o.p.
I just purchased a couple of the newer previously owned Hawkeyes in SS, not for "close-out" prices, but fair prices none-the-less.
I put one in a McMillan that I already had on hand. But, after looking over the factory plastic, my opinion is; this is one tough-ass stock also and I prefer the looks over the boat-paddle Zytel and the ability to shorten the l.o.p. easier. As a matter of, I plan to leave the factory stock on a 338 that was purchased. I was actually impressed, it is not a typical flexible wet-noddle tupperware for certain. This stock is head and shoulders stiffer than the Hogue stock the Alaskans came in and the tupperware on my M70 Classics. It appears to have a Decelerator pad, though not the 1" versions. The only negative is the stock has a bit more shine than I care for, but I am sure one hunt will remedy that.
I several Win Classic M70's but, have always used the Rugers more. And the Ruger is by far my most favored rifle considering the new enclosed triggers on the M70's. I have never had a problem with enclosed triggers, but my preference is not have that potential in the equation. My son has a couple of the new SS M70's, a South Carolina & a Portugal. These both seem to be fine rifles. But, I will stick with my Rugers.
Though, I am not overly fond of Ruger's factory rings, the mounting system is in my experience tough, reliable, and trouble free. A set of Alaska Arms rings fixes any issues with looks and quality of factory rings and are my favorites. But, I have rifles with the factory rings without issue of function. And used Warne rings without issue before becoming aquainted with Alaska Arms.
I actually think the Mark II / Hawkeye Rugers are the most rough service / rugged factory rifles that I am familiar with. I suppose by default The Mark II's / Hawkeyes are my rifle of choice. No suppose to it. Hell did not realize how much I do Really like the Rugers prior to typing this.
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Why did the Ruger Hawkeye All-Weather rifle fail?
The Ruger Hawkeye All-Weather stainless/synthetic rifle is no longer on Ruger's website. It's apparently being closed out at firesale prices by a number of businesses - I've seen two places recently that have them for $499 - which isn't all that much more than the unarguably inferior Ruger American Rifle in stainless.
To me, it seemed to be the essential rugged-use rifle. An above-average synthetic stock, stainless steel metalwork and excellent build quality. A rifle that would last through Armageddon!
OK, you probably had to tweak it a bit to get MOA accuracy, but those tweaks were well within the ability of the vast majority of gun owners.
What happened?
One of the basic truths of hunting rifle sales is that the U.S. is more than half the world market, and 90% of American hunters primarily hunt varmints and whitetails--and the whitetails mostly from stands. Most aren't rifle loonies, so don't care about controlled-round feed, integral magazines, fine metal finish, or "better" stocks, whether walnut or synthetic. Instead they want a rifle that will go bang accurately for the lowest price.
Which is why RAR's out-sell Hawkeyes.
I see this all the time at the rifle range savage axis, rar. I'm the odd guy out with my winchesters..
Given time, some of those folks will drop out of the game altogether, some will continue at that level, and some will become enthusiasts and want something better and nicer as their taste and experience matures. Then they'll start bidding against me for nice Mausers on Gunbroker.
For those who've already arrived there, RARs and the like serve as cheap test beds for cartridges they want to try and as knockabout rifles for rough use. Guys who used to keep old surplus rifles around as beaters can now get an accurate, scope-able, and even stainless piece for the same money. I'm not playing in that particular sandbox as yet, but I get the concept.
79S,
Have heard that about Model 70 stockmaking as well, through a source in the industry that says one of the major reasons for moving final assembly/production of Model 70's to Portugal is the workers at the South Carolina plant were screwing up too many walnut stocks, especially on Super-Grades. This is somewhat understandable because the SC plant mostly makes military stuff, so they had no previous experience with walnut stock-making. Apparently the problem was bad enough FN decided to move final assembly/production to Portugal.
I just purchased a "Portuguese" Model 70 from a local store just to get more of an idea of what's happening. The box says "Made in Portugal, by Browning Viana," but the left side of the receiver says "Made in USA," because the receiver was.
Apparently the box says "Made in Portugal" because of the stocks being made there (though have also been told the walnut's from America), but many of the major metal parts come from the USA or Belgium. In other words, like many products made today, it's a mix of stuff produced around the world.
So far I haven't had a chance to shoot the rifle, but the head of the gun department at the store where it was purchased says the customers who've bought them report excellent function and accuracy. (I know him quite well, not just from being a long-time customer but from time spent at the SHOT Show together, comparing notes on various products, and trust what he says.) But I have function-tested, bore-scoped and taken apart my hybrid "Portuguese" rifle and it looks to be as well-made as the South Carolina Model 70's, and far better than the last New Haven rifles.
I have to agree that these Portuguese made/assembled Model 70 are superb rifles. I have Port made 70 SG in 30-06 with Maple stock. This rifle is absolutely flawless. Feeds and functions perfectly.
Never figured I would like white wood on a hunting rifle, but this rifle is gorgeous. Almost to pretty to take into the hunting fields.
This maple wood probably came from the US or Canada as well I don't know if maple is indigenous to that part of Europe.
Yep, maple makes an attractive and (usually) lightweight stock. I've had a few maple-stocked rifles over the years, including one stock I made myself. It's a little more of a pain to work with than walnut, though not much more than Claro walnut.
Apparently there are maples in Portugal, though I suspect the M70 wood is coming from the U.S. I've seen quite a few maples in other parts of Europe, in fact my first European hunt took place in the Czech Republic when the fall foliage was peaking in color, and maple trees were a big part of the pretty scenery.
Not to get way off topic, but those Maple Stocked 70's are some kinda nice. Maple looks pretty nice tinted a little darker as well, as it really seems to show the figure off some more.
Mule Deer
Thanks for the update on maples in Europe. I have been there many times but was touring WWII battle sites and not looking at trees.
Dusty
maple is a tremendous wood-for stocks, furniture, cabinets,etc. I work with it a bit in my cabinet shop and it has a lot going for it. Its a diffuse porous wood like walnut meaning that the pores are sprinkled thru-out vs.the ring porous woods like oak, ash, etc. On the hardness/strength scales hard maple is a bit heavier that black walnut and a bit stronger. We have 2 maple stocked rifles: my .257 Ackley and my wife's little .257 which is curly maple. We've had both for many years and the stocks are very, very stable. If the stain selected matches your taste, it is a beautiful wood. We have (northern michigan) some of the very best hard maple in the world, and in the upper pennisula probably "The best" birds eye maple in the world.
An interesting story about maple: we had a very capable stock builder in our area who stocked my .257 AI and a side by side double for me. He greatly preferred maple, especially curly. I remember being in his shop once and he telling me that maple was stronger than walnut. He took a thin piece of both and bent them until they snapped. The walnut let go far quicker than the maple. I did that just recently as I'm currently finishing up a couple maple benches. I'm amazed at the strength of that hard maple. Good stuff this maple.
Have heard that about Model 70 stockmaking as well, through a source in the industry that says one of the major reasons for moving final assembly/production of Model 70's to Portugal is the workers at the South Carolina plant were screwing up too many walnut stocks, especially on Super-Grades.
I've lived that in a prior life, where I had some role in a US-based manufacturing enterprise. On the one hand, you curse the Chinese suppliers that send poor quality, but when you have a pallet of parts screwed up by a US supplier, you think, "At least if this krap had come from China, I'd have paid a lot less for it." It's nice there are some places in the world where manufacturing of consumer goods doesn't scrape the bottom of the barrel.
At one point in my life I was an inspector in a machine shop.
I went to a tool show in Chicago with the plant manager and got to listen while sales people tried to say that these new Cnc Swiss turning centers were so accurate that you could just load them up with bar stock on Friday and let them run all weekend with the lights off and Monday morning you would have barrels of good parts
In the real world tools get dull and then break
and then you have to pay somebody to sort and put scrap parts in a separate container from the good parts. Then somebody else has to make a judgement call on parts that are only a little bit out of spec. Etc, etc.
FWIW:
Stainless is not a big seller compared to blue steel.
Once a rifle gets ugly, people buy based on price.
We went through well over 100. Just a few of the magnums left...
I'm glad I got my '06 from you when I did. I'm extremely happy with that purchase. So much so that I'm contemplating calling to see what you have left and I'm not even in the market. Great rifle.
FWIW:
Stainless is not a big seller compared to blue steel.
Once a rifle gets ugly, people buy based on price.
Do you think that stainless doesn't sell in the same volume as blued CM because it is ugly or because stainless is more expensive?
Price, but also availability. Lots more models are available blued. Can't buy it if they don't make it. Stainless rifles with walnut stocks are few and far between, which is a shame because they're very handsome. Stainless guns run about $100 more on average, a premium I'm willing to pay every time.
The matte finish on the Hawkeyes apparently doesn't appeal to many, but I like it and it's a lot less flashy in the woods than the old brushed finish. Combined with the veggie-pizza laminated stock, it makes for a pretty unobtrusive package.
Glad the Wife bought me my B-DAY/X-MAS present
A Lipseys Limited run S.S. Hawkeye RSI 30-06
with open sights!
Did not care for the new stainless finish.
My vote for lack of sales would be the faux M70 wing safety needed to be bigger, like a M70. And the rise in sales of the newer and smoother operating RAR.
I think that safety is a pretty proven and accepted feature, with a relatively minor disproval. (But who uses the safety on anything anyway?) I think the best winning formulas these days include at least two out of these three: cheap, cheap, accurate. Just about everyone builds something that fits that model.
My vote for lack of sales would be the faux M70 wing safety needed to be bigger, like a M70. And the rise in sales of the newer and smoother operating RAR.
99% of hunters aren't going to avoid rugers because of the safety.
If the safety was a big problem, sales of the blued ones would suffer as well. JB pegged it on page 1.
If the safety was a big problem, sales of the blued ones would suffer as well. JB pegged it on page 1.
He makes a habit of that.
In the final analysis, I think that the quality hunting bolt-gun market is simply saturated to the point of overflow, and will remain that way for decades as older hunters die off.
I checked through the Rugers on GB last night--Given $1000, or usually much less, I could get almost any Ruger 77 I ever wanted including most of the obscure chamberings, early models, and unusual models. For only $400, I could get a blue/walnut gun in 270, -06, or 7 mag in great shape that would last a lifetime.
It's hard to sell anything but for the very bottom-feeder cheapest models in that environment.
Good point. Unless really abused, rifles tend to last a long time.
Savage 99 loonies (and I'm not talking about Savage_99) have been after the Savage company for a long time to make a new "quality" 99. Aside from that requiring major investments in new tooling, the new rifle would be competing against a million "old" quality 99's, along with another million or so "post-mil" 99's. The fact is that anybody who really wants a Savage 99 to hunt with these days (and there are fewer every year) can buy a used one for a much cheaper price than a new one would cost.
Same deal with "hunting grade" pre-'64 Model 70 Winchesters, and there weren't nearly as many 70's made as 99's.
Anyone know where you can find a 300 win mag all weather for a decent price before the are all gone? Whittakers is all out.. Any help would be appreciated.
I think that safety is a pretty proven and accepted feature, with a relatively minor disproval. (But who uses the safety on anything anyway?) I think the best winning formulas these days include at least two out of these three: cheap, cheap, accurate. Just about everyone builds something that fits that model.
The environment that you live in is significantly more challenging than where most people in the U.S. live, so you are likely to put more demands on a firearm than most folks.
A tale of 2 243s:
#1 is a Remington 700 SA CDL-SF bedded in a McM McM Hunter stock. It shoots MOA and cost around $1,600 as it sits.
#2 is a Marlin XS7. It shoots MOA and cost around $500 as it sits.
Which rifle is a better value for a novice or casual whitetail hunter?
is he gonna stay a novice?
Good point. Unless really abused, rifles tend to last a long time.
Savage 99 loonies (and I'm not talking about Savage_99) have been after the Savage company for a long time to make a new "quality" 99. Aside from that requiring major investments in new tooling, the new rifle would be competing against a million "old" quality 99's, along with another million or so "post-mil" 99's. The fact is that anybody who really wants a Savage 99 to hunt with these days (and there are fewer every year) can buy a used one for a much cheaper price than a new one would cost.
Same deal with "hunting grade" pre-'64 Model 70 Winchesters, and there weren't nearly as many 70's made as 99's.
I agree. Savage_99 is a bit loony.
is he gonna stay a novice?
I know plenty that do.
Quote from 260RemGuy:
"A tale of 2 243s:
#1 is a Remington 700 SA CDL-SF bedded in a McM McM Hunter stock. It shoots MOA and cost around $1,600 as it sits.
#2 is a Marlin XS7. It shoots MOA and cost around $500 as it sits.
Which rifle is a better value for a novice or casual whitetail hunter?"
It's even worse than that, RemGuy. The Marlin XS7 is available in .243 (blued, synthetic) right now for $250.
is he gonna stay a novice?
It depends. Some folks never go very far from their hunting roots, while others do. I don't think that you can look at a novice and tell if he/she is going to go far.
I show those 2 rifles to the parents of my Hunter Education classes, the point being that you don't have to spend a lot of $$ to buy an accurate rifle for hunting coyotes and deer in Nebraska.
Quote from 260RemGuy:
"A tale of 2 243s:
#1 is a Remington 700 SA CDL-SF bedded in a McM McM Hunter stock. It shoots MOA and cost around $1,600 as it sits.
#2 is a Marlin XS7. It shoots MOA and cost around $500 as it sits.
Which rifle is a better value for a novice or casual whitetail hunter?"
It's even worse than that, RemGuy. The Marlin XS7 is available in .243 (blued, synthetic) right now for $250.
Kick the Marlin package price back to $450; $250 for the rifle, $170 for the Leupold VX-1 3-9x40, and $30 for a set of Weaver, or Weaver-style, rings.
I am a fan of calibers that were once popular, and now somewhat difficult to find, and I enjoy handloading. Many years ago I came across a like new 77 RS with tang safety in 35 Whelen. It was just too nice and original to carry as a hunting rifle (getting a little pricey too, if you can find one) I put it away in my safe, and several years later came across a Hawkeye SS in, you guessed it .35 Whelen. Put a VX 2 3x9 on it, but the LC6 trigger had to go. Put a Timney in it(file a little at a time and check) follow directions. It now breaks like glass at about 3 lbs. Took a while to slick up the action, but now as slick as any of my other bolt guns (except a Tikka T3 Lite in .270 Win). With a variety of 180gr to 250gr bullets available, not real picky about powder, mauser type action, can't beat it. I know most of you would probably pick another caliber, but the 35 Whelen is a reliable no frills killer. Only bad thing is the POS stock. Can't see sinking more money in a stock that costs more than the gun. I do plan to put a Limbsaver pad on, as you will (especially with 250gr bullets) become a believer of Newton's Third Law.
Nothing wrong with the 35 Whelen. They make a great inclement weather rifle because they usually give one heck of a bloodtrail and on a rainy day that can be a big deal.
Anyone know where you can find a 300 win mag all weather for a decent price before the are all gone? Whittakers is all out.. Any help would be appreciated.
CDNN has them.
There is one for sale in the classifieds right now. If the bolt were on the correct side, I might not have posted this. Fortunately, I have a LH M77 MK II stainless laminate in .30-06 already.
Ruger M77 Hawkeye All-Weather 30-06 (like new) for sale
Wage compression. People in the rifle buying demographic don't have the money to spend that they used to.
Wage compression. People in the rifle buying demographic don't have the money to spend that they used to.
Then how has Kimber stayed in business?
Changing tastes and use patterns.
People under (approximately) 30 have grown up in a disposable society. Expensive electronics, furniture, even cars are used until something goes bad, or until something better comes along, then dumped. The attraction of finely machined parts, nice wood, even traditional features like iron sights, hinged floorplates, and crf, is lost on these folks unless they happen to fall in with some old-timers or start reading stuff that extolls the virtues of them. These folks are also less likely to think about the future potential of the rifle via re-stocking, re-barreling, etc.
Also, a lot of newer shooters are ex-military and are more likely, I think, to treat guns as tools. These guys are more likely to drop a bundle on a tricked-out AR or maybe a LR rig than a nice sporter.
Nothing wrong with any of this, except when sales figures for the stuff we like cause them to get dropped.
I think I'll stick with, "Only reliable rifles are reliable".
Reliable as Old Faithful. One could not imagine what my Ruger 77 MK II All Weather has been through. It even has its original plastic stock which has worked admirably over the years. I like its shiny finish too. I refer to the gun as "battleship grade".
Changing tastes and use patterns.
People under (approximately) 30 have grown up in a disposable society. Expensive electronics, furniture, even cars are used until something goes bad, or until something better comes along, then dumped. The attraction of finely machined parts, nice wood, even traditional features like iron sights, hinged floorplates, and crf, is lost on these folks unless they happen to fall in with some old-timers or start reading stuff that extolls the virtues of them. These folks are also less likely to think about the future potential of the rifle via re-stocking, re-barreling, etc.
Also, a lot of newer shooters are ex-military and are more likely, I think, to treat guns as tools. These guys are more likely to drop a bundle on a tricked-out AR or maybe a LR rig than a nice sporter.
Nothing wrong with any of this, except when sales figures for the stuff we like cause them to get dropped.
That and I've never met a whitetail hunter that thinks he needs a stainless rifle.
Dave
I don't need one, but sure like having one available for crappy weather. We're more likely to get rain than snow and the seasons of WV and Va run from early November into early January, so sleet and the deadly "wintry mix" are common as well. I'm unemployed, so can pick my hunting days, but working schlubs gotta go when they can get off, even in the schitt.
Also, as a confirmed lazy-ass, I like the option of throwing a wet rifle in the corner until after my dinner and nap.
Wage compression. People in the rifle buying demographic don't have the money to spend that they used to.
Then how has Kimber stayed in business?
Kimber plays to a much smaller market and sells alot fewer rifles.
I don't need one, but sure like having one available for crappy weather. We're more likely to get rain than snow and the seasons of WV and Va run from early November into early January, so sleet and the deadly "wintry mix" are common as well. I'm unemployed, so can pick my hunting days, but working schlubs gotta go when they can get off, even in the schitt.
Also, as a confirmed lazy-ass, I like the option of throwing a wet rifle in the corner until after my dinner and nap.
A self described, unemployed lazy azz. That's impressive.
Wage compression. People in the rifle buying demographic don't have the money to spend that they used to.
Then how has Kimber stayed in business?
Kimber plays to a much smaller market and sells alot fewer rifles.
^^^This^^^^ A Remington or a Ruger has to sell a whole lot more units to keep the big corporation fed....Kimber doesn't sell to the same demographic....every type of manufacturer has to have a market share proportionate to the size of the corporation they're trying to feed. The niche/luxury product providers in any field have much smaller operations than the ones that sell to Everyman. It really doesn't matter to Ferrari what's going on with the working class wage earner, but it sure matters to GM.
I don't need one, but sure like having one available for crappy weather. We're more likely to get rain than snow and the seasons of WV and Va run from early November into early January, so sleet and the deadly "wintry mix" are common as well. I'm unemployed, so can pick my hunting days, but working schlubs gotta go when they can get off, even in the schitt.
Also, as a confirmed lazy-ass, I like the option of throwing a wet rifle in the corner until after my dinner and nap.
I'm with you.
But the question was why did this rifle fail in the sales department.
Dave
I don't need one, but sure like having one available for crappy weather. We're more likely to get rain than snow and the seasons of WV and Va run from early November into early January, so sleet and the deadly "wintry mix" are common as well. I'm unemployed, so can pick my hunting days, but working schlubs gotta go when they can get off, even in the schitt.
Also, as a confirmed lazy-ass, I like the option of throwing a wet rifle in the corner until after my dinner and nap.
A self described, unemployed lazy azz. That's impressive.
Yup. I was such a terrible employee that my company, after only 40 years and a week, decided that they'd rather pay me thousands of dollars a year plus bennies to stay home and out of their hair. They even threw in 2 years pay extra to make sure I left.
I was crushed!
I don't need one, but sure like having one available for crappy weather. We're more likely to get rain than snow and the seasons of WV and Va run from early November into early January, so sleet and the deadly "wintry mix" are common as well. I'm unemployed, so can pick my hunting days, but working schlubs gotta go when they can get off, even in the schitt.
Also, as a confirmed lazy-ass, I like the option of throwing a wet rifle in the corner until after my dinner and nap.
I'm with you.
But the question was why did this rifle fail in the sales department.
Dave
Not pretty enough for the guys willing to pay that much for a rifle, and too expensive for the cheap gun crowd. Lots of Ruger fans don't like the matte finish either, apparently. So many bitched about the matte blued models, they started making them a little shinier. According to another thread, those are going to get dumped too, though. There's plenty of them out there, new and used, so us refined and intelligent types still have plenty to choose from.
Blame it on the bean counters. They seem to think they're in this to make money. Of course, those same guys sold a bunch of $1800 Number 1s to SAS and some others cheap enough that he could sell one to me for less than $900 and still make a couple bucks, so maybe their business model has a few wrinkles.
I don't need one, but sure like having one available for crappy weather. We're more likely to get rain than snow and the seasons of WV and Va run from early November into early January, so sleet and the deadly "wintry mix" are common as well. I'm unemployed, so can pick my hunting days, but working schlubs gotta go when they can get off, even in the schitt.
Also, as a confirmed lazy-ass, I like the option of throwing a wet rifle in the corner until after my dinner and nap.
I'm with you.
But the question was why did this rifle fail in the sales department.
Dave
Perhaps the market is saturated. I see most younger shooter at the range spending more of their money on highly modified ARs and less of it on hunting rifles not built on an AR platform.
I don't need one, but sure like having one available for crappy weather. We're more likely to get rain than snow and the seasons of WV and Va run from early November into early January, so sleet and the deadly "wintry mix" are common as well. I'm unemployed, so can pick my hunting days, but working schlubs gotta go when they can get off, even in the schitt.
Also, as a confirmed lazy-ass, I like the option of throwing a wet rifle in the corner until after my dinner and nap.
A self described, unemployed lazy azz. That's impressive.
Yup. I was such a terrible employee that my company, after only 40 years and a week, decided that they'd rather pay me thousands of dollars a year plus bennies to stay home and out of their hair. They even threw in 2 years pay extra to make sure I left.
I was crushed!
Retired ain't the same as unemployed. Poor choice of words on your part perhaps.
Perhaps, although I am without employment, unless you count my posistion as "Lab (as in retriever) Assistant".
When people ask me what I do, I usually just say "I wait for Direct Deposit".
I don't need one, but sure like having one available for crappy weather. We're more likely to get rain than snow and the seasons of WV and Va run from early November into early January, so sleet and the deadly "wintry mix" are common as well. I'm unemployed, so can pick my hunting days, but working schlubs gotta go when they can get off, even in the schitt.
Also, as a confirmed lazy-ass, I like the option of throwing a wet rifle in the corner until after my dinner and nap.
I'm with you.
But the question was why did this rifle fail in the sales department.
Dave
Perhaps the market is saturated. I see most younger shooter at the range spending more of their money on highly modified ARs and less of it on hunting rifles not built on an AR platform.
I also fear this is the case. I don't shoot at a range where a lot of people shoot, so I don't get to see it in that venue. However, it doesn't take long walking the aisles at the local gun shows to see that the tactical group is front and center to the rifle market these days. In the 2 shows I have gone to this year, I have yet to see an old tang safety or even a used Hawkeye. Seems if there are any owners of these firearms, and I know there is, for the most part they are holding on to them.
Don't go to shows, but tangers are common on used racks around here, along with 700s, various post-64 M70s and Savages. Also starting to see some of the Tupperware guns, but not always used; one big shop just throws them into the used rack with the rest.
I don't fret about the changing scene. These guys are still shooters and just as passionate about their stuff as we geezers are. Lots of them are going to turn into hunters eventually. They can be a distraction on some ranges though, when a bunch show up and start slinging a bunch of rounds downrange when Gramps is trying to concentrate on holding and squeezing. One range I use has a limit of 10-rounds in the mag and discourages "rapid fire", mainly so as not to piss off the neighbors, but it helps control some of the chaos. So does going there in the midfle of the week, which is what I usually do.
But the question was why did this rifle fail in the sales department.
Dave
The RAR stole its thunder...people can't resist cheap rifles.
Especially cheap rifles that, usually, shoot more accurately out of the box than OTB Hawkeyes, with more easily-adjustable triggers. It's easy to "fix" the bedding and triggers on Hawkeyes, but many shooters aren't as into dinking around with factory rifles--perhaps with good reason. Why should we have to spend time and money fixing what shouldn't be wrong with a new rifle?
I know this is contrary to loony tradition, but to tell the truth, these days I'm just as happy to find a new rifle shoots very well.
Wage compression. People in the rifle buying demographic don't have the money to spend that they used to.
Then how has Kimber stayed in business?
Kimber plays to a much smaller market and sells alot fewer rifles.
^^^This^^^^ A Remington or a Ruger has to sell a whole lot more units to keep the big corporation fed....Kimber doesn't sell to the same demographic....every type of manufacturer has to have a market share proportionate to the size of the corporation they're trying to feed. The niche/luxury product providers in any field have much smaller operations than the ones that sell to Everyman. It really doesn't matter to Ferrari what's going on with the working class wage earner, but it sure matters to GM.
+1. I think Kimber is the profile of the type of company that will be supplying for lack of a better word quality sporting arms. I expect the bigger companies will continue to reduce their quality chasing the mass market. It's going to be tuff in the future a market awash in used guns coupled with fewer hunters.
Pappy...perhaps I spoke too soon. Went to some of the pawn shops in the larger town near me today to get out and about a little. On my way out of town, stopped at a shop that has a few rifles and hadn't been in there in a while. Lo and behold, I see a 77 in the rack and ask the lady the caliber of it. She answers 243. I told her I already had one in the 243. As I was looking at others around it, I take a better look and notice it was an old flatbolt. I ask to see it. Behind the rifle was a tag that announced it was marked down from 500 to 469 with a cheap Bushnell 3-9 on it. Being relatively poor, I asked about their lay a away and tell her I do want the rifle after all. But before I did, I asked her if she knew that it was a flatbolt. She didn't have a clue, but told me that all she wanted/needed for the rifle and that it had been there for a while. Anyway, in a couple of months it will come home with me and be beside my other flatbolt (also a 243 Win). I suspect this one will become trade fodder for something I really want.